why is Porsche never in racing games?

[blowfishrulez]

It's not a conflict of interest if Porsche specifically gave EA the power to manage or refuse sub licences. There is certainly nothing to suggest that the deal actively hurts Porsche.

The conflict of interest is with EA, not Porsche directly. It is safe to assume EA does not hand out sub licenses because it potentially hurts their own sales and value of their racing franchises.

I would be surprised if EA pays as much or more than what Porsche would be able to get if they would have kept their right to hand out licenses to PD/TURN 10/SMS/KUNOS/EA/UBISOFT etc. separately. Until i see indications that EA pays more than that its not far fetched to assume this deal is hurting Porsche too.

 

[Nato_777]

I don't think you can really say that the deal with EA hurts Porsche even if they could get more from separate licenses unless Porsche were reliant on that income which I'm certain they are not, it's just an icing on the cake.
The only ones that are hurt by the deal are the racing game fans who want to be able to drive their favourite Porsche in their favourite racing games. Oh and probably the other developers that want to bring Porsche to their fans but can't justify the price tag EA asks so are unable to or maybe just are unwilling to line their competitor's pockets.

 

[MXH]

License fees for such an exclusive deal would be sky high. That makes it not feasible for the game company at one point. Next, i can not imagine any manufacturer will sell their whole licensing rights off to another company again.

There's probably a lot of money involved but presumably it's hardly making EA - a multi-billion company - sweat financially. If I remember correctly, EA also seemed to think that the license brought value to the Need for Speed franchise.

We can only hope that Porsche sobers up from the honeymoon with EA.

It is safe to assume EA does not hand out sub licenses because it potentially hurts their own sales and value of their racing franchises.

Forza Motorsport 1 - 4?

“Well, many many years ago Porsche and EA Games signed a long-term deal regarding how Porsche was going to be licensed. That deal has been resigned many times over the years. Because of the nature of that deal, EA has the exclusive rights and the discretion to sub-license Porsche as they see fit.”


“Porsche has been in the last three Forza Motorsports through a sub-licensing deal with EA. For Forza Motorsport 4 we were not able to find terms that were agreeable to all parties, but we stayed at the table. It took some time to value the brand in such a way that everyone agreed.”


“Porsche, Ferrari and Lamborghini are kind of like the holy trinity of auto brands. They pull in a lot of people. They have prestige around the world. Finding that value and agreeing on that value is really what it came down to.”

http://gamerant.com/forza-motorsport-4-porsche-expansion-pack-jeff-137254/

 

[Tornado]

I would be surprised if EA pays as much or more than what Porsche would be able to get if they would have kept their right to hand out licenses to PD/TURN 10/SMS/KUNOS/EA/UBISOFT etc. separately.

And I would be surprised if Porsche actually cared about how much more (theoretical) money they could get if they increased their workload dramatically by handling licencing duties themselves; especially since they have continuously renewed the deal for 15 years and have seemingly even worked with EA to close loopholes in it. It's known that in the past licensors have seeked exclusive partnerships rather than it necessarily being the licencee who went courting, and Porsche has never made any indication that they are unhappy with the deal no matter how many forum posts have been made here every time a new GT game is announced asserting that the exclusivity ending is just around the corner.


In fact, I can think of two exclusive licences off the top of head (NASCAR and the NFL) that EA was raked over the coals for taking away from competing developers until it was made known that those organizations actively seeked EA out, because they were unhappy with having to deal with multiple parties. So perhaps you're overstating the financial side of it just a bit.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Given the cars that small devs like SMS and Kunos have brought to the table with their very small budgets, I don't think the licensing of cars is all that expensive, nor lucrative for car companies. I'd be surprised if it just covered the legal costs and aggravation. I think for Porsche we're talking maybe several hundred thousand at best. I've always felt that Porsche simply doesn't want the aggravation of dealing with a bunch of small or large game devs and just chose one of the big ones out of convenience.

 

[dQuim]

Grid 1 also had a licensed 911 GT3 RSR.

 

[Myles Prower]

You could never buy the car though, the only way you could drive it was if you signed with a team

 

[F1Racer68]

The last "Proper" (and non-EA) racing games to have Porsches included under the Porsche name were GTR, GT Legends and GTR2 all released by SimBin. GTR was released in spring of 2005, and the sequel, GTR2 was released in the fall of 2006. GT Legends came out in late 2005.

A few years ago GTR2 (and GT Legends) was released via steam but it no longer had the Porsche or Ferrari licenses (since the company no longer exists). As a result, although the cars are still there, they have fake names and are all black silhouettes.

After SimBin closed up shop, some elements of the company formed Sector3 Studios (makers of RaceRoom Racing Experience) and Andy Tudor and other former SimBin members formed SMS.

 

[JohnScoonsBeard]

The last "Proper" (and non-EA) racing games to have Porsches included under the Porsche name were GTR, GT Legends and GTR2 all released by SimBin. GTR was released in spring of 2005, and the sequel, GTR2 was released in the fall of 2006. GT Legends came out in late 2005.

A few years ago GTR2 (and GT Legends) was released via steam but it no longer had the Porsche or Ferrari licenses (since the company no longer exists). As a result, although the cars are still there, they have fake names and are all black silhouettes.

After SimBin closed up shop, some elements of the company formed Sector3 Studios (makers of RaceRoom Racing Experience) and Andy Tudor and other former SimBin members formed SMS.

Are you sure about that last bit? SMS have been going for quite a while and SimBin only closed/ changed name last year.

I assumed the steam version had the silhouettes for Porsche/Ferrari (easily fixed) as the original license only allowed distribution on hard copy.

How legitimate are the Porsches in the absolutely wonderful Power and Glory mod for GTR2? It had a great update in the last year or 2. I seem to remember reading it had the support of SimBin but wasn't sure how accurate that was. Did any of the modding team responsible for that make it to the SMS development team?

 

[Pseudopod]

Brand recognition is important for exclusive brands like Porsche. Few things raise brand awareness more among young people than video game presence. Buying luxury items isn't just about the objective quality of the item, but also how society perceives people who own them. If fewer people know what a porsche is, it's less impressive to be driving one.

Sure, the majority of game enthusiasts might never buy a supercar, but they'll know about it, and perhaps even become fans of it and talk about how cool they think they are. They might take screenshots of it and share it, or even make videos of them driving them. All this builds brand awareness, and is practically free for the brand owners.

Personally, I sometimes forget that Porsche even exists . It is certainly not at the top of my head when performance and/or exclusive cars are the topic. "Skyline (or gt-r i guess)" pops up in my head before "Porsche" does if someone asks me "what's a fast car?", regardless of what's empirically faster or more expensive.

 

[JohnScoonsBeard]

I think they get plenty of exposure elsewhere though. Cars on the street and pics in glossy magazines still sell the brand very well along with plenty of opportunity and exposure at track experiences where I've been lucky enough to drive a 911 (996) GT3.

I find the race mods I've played in PC sims of Porsches about the very peak of the most enjoyable cars I've driven in any game.

That's the reason I'd happily pay extra for Porsches both road and racing in Project Cars at some point in the future.

 

[F1Racer68]

Are you sure about that last bit? SMS have been going for quite a while and SimBin only closed/ changed name last year.

I assumed the steam version had the silhouettes for Porsche/Ferrari (easily fixed) as the original license only allowed distribution on hard copy.

How legitimate are the Porsches in the absolutely wonderful Power and Glory mod for GTR2? It had a great update in the last year or 2. I seem to remember reading it had the support of SimBin but wasn't sure how accurate that was. Did any of the modding team responsible for that make it to the SMS development team?

My understanding is that a good portion of the core SMS team on Project CARS was part of the team behind GTR2. Whether they went there before or after SimBin closed up shop I can't say for certain, but it does explain why Project CARS is reusing some of the GTR2 soundtrack.

It amazes me how good GTR2 still is today. I am currently doing a new career in GT Legends after having built my new PC and having installed the HD updates. Graphics are showing their age, but the physics and tuning capabilities are still SO GOOD!! And the incredible amount of Community Mod support even today keeps the games fresh and new. I have not yet done the P&G mod for GTR2. It's next on my To Do list

 

[Pseudopod]

I think they get plenty of exposure elsewhere though. Cars on the street and pics in glossy magazines still sell the brand very well along with plenty of opportunity and exposure at track experiences where I've been lucky enough to drive a 911 (996) GT3.

I find the race mods I've played in PC sims of Porsches about the very peak of the most enjoyable cars I've driven in any game.

That's the reason I'd happily pay extra for Porsches both road and racing in Project Cars at some point in the future.

There aren't *that* many porsches on the streets, and glossy magazines, how many people below 30 read those? I think that when you've gotten to that age, your preferences when it comes to this sort of stuff is already reasonably set in stone and no longer likely to change greatly.

Young people however, are very impressionable, and things you manage to "hook" young people on usually remains with them well into their adult lives, in some cases forever . I know the cars I thought were cool in my teenage years have managed to stick with me and are unlikely to let go anytime soon . It's all good that porsche still has good recognition among the currently "properly adult" people, but they'll eventually get replaced by today's youth. It would be good to future-proof your brand already today.

It wouldn't have been all that big a deal if it had just been a few titles that lacked the brand, but the current situation is that a very large percentage of racing games lack them.

 

[Jump_Ace]

Yes, it's always been funny with Porsche..... Going back 20 years when Porsche Challenge came out on the PS1 it was exclusive rights!! Nothing changes it seems!! PS: The graphics were fab at the time Lol!!

I love that game, it's been a while since I've played it. Didn't it have a Black Porsche driver who was really fast that you could try racing against once you get the fastest car(s)?


Jerome

 

[HammyMansell]

I love that game, it's been a while since I've played it. Didn't it have a Black Porsche driver who was really fast that you could try racing against once you get the fastest car(s)?


Jerome

That's right!!........ A bit like the original black Stig from Top gear!!!

 

[Johnnypenso]

There aren't *that* many porsches on the streets, and glossy magazines, how many people below 30 read those? I think that when you've gotten to that age, your preferences when it comes to this sort of stuff is already reasonably set in stone and no longer likely to change greatly.

Young people however, are very impressionable, and things you manage to "hook" young people on usually remains with them well into their adult lives, in some cases forever . I know the cars I thought were cool in my teenage years have managed to stick with me and are unlikely to let go anytime soon . It's all good that porsche still has good recognition among the currently "properly adult" people, but they'll eventually get replaced by today's youth. It would be good to future-proof your brand already today.

It wouldn't have been all that big a deal if it had just been a few titles that lacked the brand, but the current situation is that a very large percentage of racing games lack them.

Apparently Porsche, the most profitable car company in the world (per unit) disagrees with you about the importance of video games in their promotional arsenal. I would defer to their expertise. I'd love to have them in any game I play, it's been my favourite marque since I was a kid, but I don't buy the whole "videogames as advertising" pitch. Anyone who can afford a Porsche or other supercar, usually lives in a world where such cars are fairly commonplace and couldn't possibly miss out on the brand.

 

[InSight]

There aren't *that* many porsches on the streets, and glossy magazines, how many people below 30 read those? I think that when you've gotten to that age, your preferences when it comes to this sort of stuff is already reasonably set in stone and no longer likely to change greatly.

Young people however, are very impressionable, and things you manage to "hook" young people on usually remains with them well into their adult lives, in some cases forever . I know the cars I thought were cool in my teenage years have managed to stick with me and are unlikely to let go anytime soon . It's all good that porsche still has good recognition among the currently "properly adult" people, but they'll eventually get replaced by today's youth. It would be good to future-proof your brand already today.

It wouldn't have been all that big a deal if it had just been a few titles that lacked the brand, but the current situation is that a very large percentage of racing games lack them.

And then there's Chris Harris...

 

[Tornado]

Brand recognition is important for exclusive brands like Porsche. Few things raise brand awareness more among young people than video game presence.

Which, even if you want to ignore Porsche's large presence in other forms of entertainment, Porsche has. Millions of copies of a widely known and aggressively marketed series across (until the Wii U started tanking) pretty much everything that has videogames made for them; plus the occasional side game EA also puts out. Add to that the games that have worked their way around Porsche licence with an obvious wink, like RUF models, or Gemballa models, or even just straight up knock offs which are all clearly Porsche substitutes.




Don't overstate the EA exclusivity as if Porsche has negligable videogame presence. They've managed to make their brand desirable enough that even games that don't feature their models advertise them.

 

[Pseudopod]

Apparently Porsche, the most profitable car company in the world (per unit) disagrees with you about the importance of video games in their promotional arsenal. I would defer to their expertise. I'd love to have them in any game I play, it's been my favourite marque since I was a kid, but I don't buy the whole "videogames as advertising" pitch. Anyone who can afford a Porsche or other supercar, usually lives in a world where such cars are fairly commonplace and couldn't possibly miss out on the brand.

Are the reasons for their continued exclusivity actually known? I've heard both that porsche could change the deal, and that they can't change the deal (without breaking contract, which EA would probably sue them for a lot over). If they are locked into the contract, it wouldn't just be because they didn't think it was a good idea to be in games, but that the projected gains from breaking the contract just didn't outweigh whatever EA would have demanded from them.

I never meant that anyone would forget about the brand because of lack of video game presence (i'm probably just one of a few special cases ). Buying an expensive car is probably something most people, even rich people, spend a bit of time researching before buying, so they'd be unlikely to just not know about it. What I mean is that while the brand recognition and popularity of porsche might not actually decrease a lot, the brand recognition and popularity of some of their competitors might increase, making them more attractive purchases than they were before.

And yeah I probably am overstating the importance of gaming a tiny bit. Who knows exactly how much though. The gaming industry is still increasing, and people spend more and more time on them. While you might see a porsche in a movie for a maybe 10 minutes in total over the course of a movie, and you only see a movie with one in every other week, you would perhaps see porsches in games every day if you play a game that has cars in it.

I am probably understating the popularity of EA's racing games more than I am overstating games as a marketing tool .

 

[Johnnypenso]

Are the reasons for their continued exclusivity actually known? I've heard both that porsche could change the deal, and that they can't change the deal (without breaking contract, which EA would probably sue them for a lot over). If they are locked into the contract, it wouldn't just be because they didn't think it was a good idea to be in games, but that the projected gains from breaking the contract just didn't outweigh whatever EA would have demanded from them.

I never meant that anyone would forget about the brand because of lack of video game presence (i'm probably just one of a few special cases ). Buying an expensive car is probably something most people, even rich people, spend a bit of time researching before buying, so they'd be unlikely to just not know about it. What I mean is that while the brand recognition and popularity of porsche might not actually decrease a lot, the brand recognition and popularity of some of their competitors might increase, making them more attractive purchases than they were before.

And yeah I probably am overstating the importance of gaming a tiny bit. Who knows exactly how much though. The gaming industry is still increasing, and people spend more and more time on them. While you might see a porsche in a movie for a maybe 10 minutes in total over the course of a movie, and you only see a movie with one in every other week, you would perhaps see porsches in games every day if you play a game that has cars in it.

I am probably understating the popularity of EA's racing games more than I am overstating games as a marketing tool .

We can only speculate but someone (@Tornado?)recently suggested maybe it's just a PITA dealing with videogame makers, working out contracts, liasing with modelers etc. There isn't any real money in it for Porsche or anyone else really, it's more like advertising than anything else. I think they just don't think it's important and can't be bothered.

EDIT: It was Tornado right up there ^^^^^

 

[NLxAROSA]

Don't overstate the EA exclusivity as if Porsche has negligable videogame presence. They've managed to make their brand desirable enough that even games that don't feature their models advertise them.

So true. Quite bluntly put: people playing games are not their target demographic. From Porsche perspective, getting exposure in games will not give them any more sales or exposure in their target market, they would rather use other channels to advertize. Anybody ever wonder why you don't see TV ads on prime time for brands like Porsche, Ferrari or Lamborghini? Because people watching TV are not their target demographic either. And it's the same for people playing video games.

 

[blowfishrulez]

I disagree. Porsche has shifted their Marketing and Advertisement efforts also to TV, Social and Mobile, as well as other entertainment areas. They want to double their sales within the next 3-4 years and need to appeal to a broader audience. This goes hand in Hand with new, competitively priced products like the Cayman and the Boxster.

They even shifted their Ad Strategy away from exclusive, expensive, engineering driven towards the practical aspects and fuel efficiency.

http://de.slideshare.net/derekmitchell562/porsche-strategic-marketing-analysis-17225184
http://www.luxurydaily.com/porsche-uses-mobile-ad-to-amplify-social-campaign/
http://www.dmnews.com/porsche-launc...-to-shift-consumer-perception/article/199269/
http://digiday.com/social/inside-porsches-digital-strategy/

Today, everybody plays video games. The is no such thing as "a video gamer demographic" that is somehow less valueable.

 

[NLxAROSA]

There's a huge difference between social media and playing video games (and we're talking racing games here specifically, which is an even smaller demographic). Social media have pretty much replaced traditional media (newspapers, magazines, etc.) in every demographic, it only makes sense for them to move there.

People that can afford a new Cayman, Boxster or 911 are just not the people that sit around playing video games (and again, racing games are an even smaller subset). And competitively priced in Porsche terms is still way out of most peoples league.

Taking GTP as an example (since it's a fairly large community): how many members here have bought a new Porsche, Ferrari or Lambo? Even in the hardcore sim communities, the number is extremely low. Now compare that to the average business, realtor, investor, boating, or whatever high rolling community (that's their target market). Marketing is applied where sales are most likely. Your average racing game player is just not it when it comes to high end cars.

 

[ShiftingGears]

There's a huge difference between social media and playing video games (and we're talking racing games here specifically, which is an even smaller demographic). Social media have pretty much replaced traditional media (newspapers, magazines, etc.) in every demographic, it only makes sense for them to move there.

People that can afford a new Cayman, Boxster or 911 are just not the people that sit around playing video games (and again, racing games are an even smaller subset). And competitively priced in Porsche terms is still way out of most peoples league.

Taking GTP as an example (since it's a fairly large community): how many members here have bought a new Porsche, Ferrari or Lambo? Even in the hardcore sim communities, the number is extremely low. Now compare that to the average business, realtor, investor, boating, or whatever high rolling community (that's their target market). Marketing is applied where sales are most likely. Your average racing game player is just not it when it comes to high end cars.

A thought worth adding: there's going to be a portion of people who will be wealthy tomorrow who are young gamers today.

if the younger gamer gets attached to those brands because of cars he raced on video games, that would be a factor in their choice if they grow up to be able to afford a supercar.

 

[blowfishrulez]

There's a huge difference between social media and playing video games (and we're talking racing games here specifically, which is an even smaller demographic). Social media have pretty much replaced traditional media (newspapers, magazines, etc.) in every demographic, it only makes sense for them to move there.

People that can afford a new Cayman, Boxster or 911 are just not the people that sit around playing video games (and again, racing games are an even smaller subset). And competitively priced in Porsche terms is still way out of most peoples league.

Taking GTP as an example (since it's a fairly large community): how many members here have bought a new Porsche, Ferrari or Lambo? Even in the hardcore sim communities, the number is extremely low. Now compare that to the average business, realtor, investor, boating, or whatever high rolling community (that's their target market). Marketing is applied where sales are most likely. Your average racing game player is just not it when it comes to high end cars.

If this is true, why is Porsche present in the most casual racing titles out there? Why would Ferrari, Lamborghini and McLaren even bother to be present in AC, Forza, PCars or GT? You really believe they aren't sure about their Marketing Strategy and target the wrong audience? You think Vision GT is a project that has no value for the participating companies?

 

[NLxAROSA]

If this is true, why is Porsche present in the most casual racing titles out there? Why would Ferrari, Lamborghini and McLaren even bother to be present in AC, Forza, PCars or GT?

It's the other way around: the game developers/publishers want these cars in their racing games to sell more games. That's why the developers have to pay the car manufacturers and not the other way around.

 

[blowfishrulez]

It's the other way around: the game developers/publishers want these cars in their racing games to sell more games. That's why the developers have to pay the car manufacturers and not the other way around.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/22/car-in-video-games_n_3793607.html?

Consultancy PricewaterhouseCoopers estimates in-game advertising will be a $2.8 billion industry worldwide this year. Carmakers say it is cheaper than product placement in films and they can even collect licensing fees for handing over their vehicle specifications to game developers.

Games industry analyst Brian Blau of Gartner, who once worked on licensing deals with carmakers, said auto companies are willing to pay as much as a million dollars if one of their cars is deeply integrated into the storyline of a video game, all the way down to appearing on the cover of the box.

http://www.trendhunter.com/protrends/branded-racing

Several automakers are engaging in branded racing games and campaigns to entice new segments of consumers. Studies have shown that Millennials are not as interested in driving as previous generations and many (younger) consumers who enjoy video games often don't have any preference when it comes to the cars they drive. Thus, by releasing branded auto racing games and campaigns, car companies can capture the attention of those in the younger consumer group who would otherwise not pay attention or care about the new cars on the market.

Nothing to add

 

[mister dog]

Well i mailed Porsche:

"Dear,
I would like to raise a question regarding Porsche's exclusivity deal for representing their cars in racing video games. For a long time (many years) EA has the only license to represent Porsche cars in their games, leaving every other developer with no chance to include Porsches in their games, and they have to resort to RUF in order to offer some cars that are similar. The bad thing about this is that there are only a couple of RUF's so you see the same cars in almost every non EA title...
With the importance of videogames rising day by day (generating more money then the movie industry), it is a bit sad that EA holds on to this Porsche license and only makes arcade style racers, whilst racing games that are more orientated to the simulation side like Project Cars, Raceroom, Assetto Corsa, Gran Turismo, Forza motorsport etcetera have no chance of including the Porsche brand in their games.
I would appreciate if you could tell me if this exclusive license with EA has an end date, and if there is the chance that Porsche might license to other racing game developers in the future should the exclusivity deal with EA end.
Representing your cars in as much video games as possible is undeniably a good chance for free publicity towards the Porsche brand, and i hope Porsche themselves can see the importance of this."

Let's see if i get a reply

 

[Tornado]

I think it's pretty safe to say that Porsche (as well as the other high end performance brands, but we'll stick to Porsche here) isn't paying a dime to be featured heavily in EA titles. Companies like GM and Toyota probably throw money around like that (see the BreesFrees in GT5), but GM and Toyota aren't Porsche (or Ferrari or Lamborghini or...)

If this is true, why is Porsche present in the most casual racing titles out there?

You serious? Because EA develops them.

You think Vision GT is a project that has no value for the participating companies?

Vision GT is irrelevant to this discussion. For what seems at times to be the minimum amount of work possible for a car designer to do to still be called a car design, PD works hard to recreate the model in game and Sony parades the car and the brand around the internet (and occasionally racing events) for a couple months. It's not even in the same timezone as a car just being featured in a game, nor do we know whether the program is funded or not, nor do we know how successful the program has been versus the original expectations regardless (since certain cars in the project were pretty much ignored even here on GTP).

 

[Joel]

In fact, I can think of two exclusive licences off the top of my head (NASCAR and the NFL) that EA was raked over the coals for taking away from competing developers until it was made known that those organizations actively seeked EA out, because they were unhappy with having to deal with multiple parties. So perhaps you're overstating the financial side of it just a bit.

Exactly. We're talking about Porsche, a company that sold 160,000 cars worth at the absolute least $50,000+ each last year, including many SUV's in the 70+ range. It's just not worth the time to bother seeking out all these developers who sell a few million $60 games to car nerds when they could just get some money out of EA and call it a day. How much of that $60 could Porsche reasonably expect to get out of Forza/GT licensing deals?

It's great if being in Forza or GT makes some teenagers with no money become car fans. It's even better if Porsche can license out to a bigger company like EA and then spend their time on their actual target market, instead of maybe hoping some kid playing GT decides to buy a Porsche in 30 years. I'm glad you mentioned the BreesFrees, that's a perfect example of spending the money to attract your target market. If GT and Forza were widely popular among established professionals in their 50's with 6 figure incomes, Porsche would be doing the same. But it's not, so they don't.