Why no tyre marks in every GT so far?

[CAMAROBOY69]

I have 2 questions.

1. Why are tire marks missing from the GT series?

2. Why doesnt the GT series show the exact location the tire is wearing out?

In Forza 1, 2, and 3 when your tires start wearing out you can see exactly where they wear out in the tire diagram. If you have too much negative or postive camber it will show the area on the tire where it is wearing out. If I remember correctly, in GT3, 4 and 5 it just makes the tire icon turn different colors but does not specify where the tire wear is at. I love the wire wear icon in the Forza series because it lets me know exactly where I need to make my changes.

 

[Adam41]

If Kaz can't have tire marks that are permanent for a race maybe he doesn't want them at all?

Very good point.

Not only that but I think if we did get skid marks, the next thing people would start moaning about (You say you wouldn't, but you would eventually) is the way tyre marks don't affect the stability and grip of a car driving over them.

Remember GT5 is being created on a totally new platform. Adding tyre marks and everything on people's wishlist would take a lot more time. I'm greatful for what he's giving us in GT5. He will probably look at all these other aspects when developing GT6?

 

[Maggot666PL]

In Forza 1, 2, and 3 when your tires start wearing out you can see exactly where they wear out in the tire diagram. If you have too much negative or postive camber it will show the area on the tire where it is wearing out. If I remember correctly, in GT3, 4 and 5 it just makes the tire icon turn different colors but does not specify where the tire wear is at. I love the wire wear icon in the Forza series because it lets me know exactly where I need to make my changes.

You're not remembering correctly, 5 is not out yet and there is no tyre wear at all in Prologue. But it's true, there is no telemetry matching the one FM has. Why? Who are we, Kaz's mindreaders? There isn't one, period.

 

[hoodrich902]

Oh it's not important? Neither was damage right? But look, it turns out it is.💡 And you should really look at those sales figures closer. Calculating the sales figures of GT games against the number of PS consoles on the market at the time and the increase in overall console gamers in the world, the sales are actually going down, considerably, to the tune of nearly 5 million sales. So you're talking wet.

http://news.vgchartz.com/news.php?id=1142

Millions of GT games sold:
GT = 10.85
GT2 = 9.37
GT3 = 14.89
GT4 = 10.06
(GTC + GT4P + GT5P = 5.15)


And people will go on about it until they get it. That's a pretty simple concept.

Wait Wait Wait so...You honestly believe that sales declined soley because of no tire marks. Are you for real? How about no online no damage no body kits just a spoiler and some rims, tacked on NOS no weather. Bias towards Japananese cars bad sound and no leader boards. Do you really think that people walk into stores pick up a sim game and the sales rep tells them theres no tire marks on the pavement in game they suddlenly dont buy the game?

 

[FLASH48]

I don't need no, stinking skid marks!

 

[Cobra_NZ]

Wait Wait Wait so...You honestly believe that sales declined soley because of no tire marks. Are you for real? How about no online. no damage, no body kits; just a spoiler and some rims, tacked on NOS no weather. Bias towards Japananese cars, bad sound, and no leader boards. Do you really think that people walk into stores pick up a sim game and the sales rep tells them theres no tire marks on the pavement in game they suddlenly dont buy the game?

"Oh it's not important? Neither was damage right? But look, it turns out it is."

I believe I either didn't explain myself properly or you're taking it the wrong way. What I was getting at is that all these features omitted from previous GT games people think do not make a difference to the sales of GT. I think it does. I only gave 2 examples of those omitted features, Tyre Marks and Damage, but of course there were many more...

 

[serversurfer]

The only flaw in your reasoning is that sales of GT are just fine, as I just pointed out to you. GT5P outsold FM2 FFS. There's nothing wrong with GT sales.

 

[YZF]

how many times do we have to discuss this topic???

at the end of the day its not important. Look at the sales figures of EVERY GT game, nobody cares

It IS important and we are not talking about major feature sort of do-or-die! If you don't care about _real_ driving simulator, it doesn't mean that others are in the same boat with you.

 

[YZF]

When i'm watching my replays the last thing i'm worried about is whats happening on the ground directly behind my car.

Some men like 200lbs women and not care about their size....

Thank god not all of them are the same

 

[YZF]

If you want to add tyre marks, you most likely will find yourself in a predicament as a developer. Adding tyre marks lap after lap costs performance, I guess everyone agrees on that. Therefore, people suggested, as it's been done in other games, that the marks should only be visible temporarily and then vanish again. The problem is, they must not vanish while you're looking, because that looks extremely stupid (I've seen that in some other game a while back, can't remember which though). Now, how do you build something that will be drawn until time x runs out, or, alternatively, longer, if that part of track is visible from some camera angle? Extremely interesting how someone would implement this, especially when, in replays, you can switch between cars and viewpoints at will, so basically you can never be sure noone's looking right now.

Did you play GPL (Grand Prix Legends) a PC game? It was released 10years ago and system requirements were:

Intel Pentium 166 CPU,
32MB RAM,
59MB hard disk,
2MB graphic card
(16mb 3DFX voodoo was more than enough).


You should try that game and see how sidmarks were done and how damn long you could spin tyres before skidmarks were out of memory....it shows what can you do with such little vram.

 

[Sele1981]

Because there are no tyre marks in Japan?

I realised something... Here in Germany my tyres never make some noise when I drive fast into corners.

Then I was in holiday in Turkey and the road was very hot... The tyres go crazy even if I drive very slowly through the corner...

So that can be the reason for that too much tire sounds in GT4 and GT5P Spec I?? Maybe the roads in Japan are different and in each corner the tires freak out?

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

If we cant have tire marks then we truly need a way to read the tire wear so we can make the necessary adjustments. Right now in the GT series I have no way of telling what I adjusted wrong accordingt to the tire wear indicator. It just doesnt show if I have too much camber, not enough camber or anything. The tire indicator just changes colors but it doesnt change colors where the problem is.
The Forza series has this nailed perfectly.

 

[Cobra_NZ]

If we cant have tire marks then we truly need a way to read the tire wear so we can make the necessary adjustments. Right now in the GT series I have no way of telling what I adjusted wrong according to the tire wear indicator. It just doesnt show if I have too much camber, not enough camber or anything. The tire indicator just changes colors but it doesnt change colors where the problem is.
The Forza series has this nailed perfectly.

True.

But PD has stepped up to FM3 with some of the aspects of GT5. Look at how determined KY is now to get realistic damage simulaton and rollover in GT5. I'm really pleased with this development, it looks like PD are finally making a effort to meet and best it's biggest competition, T10's FM3. Now, I say making an effort, but when PD makes an effort, well, it's a thing of brilliance.

 

[ralph89]

Maybe the reason PD don't like skid marks and reverse light is, your supposed to go forward on racing not backward, and not to show off during racing with your name on the pavement.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

Would be nice to have all of the lights fully functioning, so you know the intentions & hazards.

 

[RedBaron]

Maybe the reason PD don't like skid marks and reverse light is, your supposed to go forward on racing not backward, and not to show off during racing with your name on the pavement.

But it's not Real Racing Simulator, but Real Driving Simulator. And I can feel that somewhat donuts, burnouts, 180's, 360's or going in reverse really belong to driving.

 

[hoodrich902]

"Oh it's not important? Neither was damage right? But look, it turns out it is."

You need to reread my post.

Wait Wait Wait so...You honestly believe that sales declined soley because of no tire marks. Are you for real? How about no online no damage no body kits just a spoiler and some rims, tacked on NOS no weather. Bias towards Japananese cars bad sound and no leader boards. Do you really think that people walk into stores pick up a sim game and the sales rep tells them theres no tire marks on the pavement in game they suddlenly dont buy the game?

In bold is what mainly contributed to sales declines in GT not tires marks and damage alone. Also no where in my post do I state its not important but it surely isnt the reason why millions skipped out on GT

 

[Cobra_NZ]

You need to reread my post....In bold is what mainly contributed to sales declines in GT not tires marks and damage alone. Also no where in my post do I state its not important but it surely isnt the reason why millions skipped out on GT

You're not paying attention. I meant those two things were some of the omitted features, not all of them. Also the bit in quotes was from a post on the first page, which you, yourself quoted, so it was not addressed to you. All good.

 

[serversurfer]

I've already explained the "decline" in sales from GT3 to GT4, more than once, actually… I'll give it one more try…

For four years, GT3 was the only GT that was available on the most popular console of all time. Everyone that owned a PS2 prior to 2005 bought GT3 if they wanted a GT game. The main reason that a mere 10,760,000 people bought GT4 is because it was released late in the generation, and people either were waiting for the next generation to arrive, or were still playing their copies of GT3.

If tire marks or damage or livery editors or any of the other crap that Forza fans harp about actually had any effect on sales, then it would've had an effect on sales. People would've purchased the games that offer that stuff instead of GT, but they didn't. GT Prologues outsell other driving games.

Would those things be nice additions to the series? Of course they would. Will their additions significantly increase sales? My guess is no, because I don't think a significant number of people avoided the series for lack of that stuff in the first place. Now, I'm sure you can find plenty of people willing to say they refuse to buy GT games simply because they don't have skid marks, and I'm sure some of them would actually be telling the truth, but at the end of the day, those people don't count for much. I'd be very surprised if the addition of damage accounts for even a million additional sales of GT5, and while a million additional sales might seem like a lot for a relatively unsuccessful franchise like Forza, it's just a drop in the bucket for a franchise like GT. And I'm going to go out on a limb and say that tire marks would contribute even less to the success of the game. My guess is that the rubbering-in of the track over a race weekend (along with building up marbles off-line) would draw more people in, even if it wasn't represented visually.

 

[Cobra_NZ]

After reading the latest interviews, I'm really looking forward to the build up to GT5 and very hopeful to see tyre marks.

That plus playing FM3 demo now and FM3 in a few weeks and I'm set. Great times ahead.

 

[SUPER NUMBBER]

If we cant have tire marks then we truly need a way to read the tire wear so we can make the necessary adjustments. Right now in the GT series I have no way of telling what I adjusted wrong accordingt to the tire wear indicator. It just doesnt show if I have too much camber, not enough camber or anything. The tire indicator just changes colors but it doesnt change colors where the problem is.
The Forza series has this nailed perfectly.

Maybe the color changing tread indicator is not the most in-depth, and it may not be very detailed, but I've seen from personal experience where tires wore down differently; once I set up the car suspension so bad that the right side tires were chili red while the left side was perfectly green. One other time I had the front right tire wear faster than the rest. So the tire wear IS independant, it's just that unless you mess up the settings so badly (like I did then ), the difference is not very pronounced.

 

[serversurfer]

I think he meant it doesn't show if a given tire is wearing along the inner edge, outer edge, or evenly across the tread.

 

[Grant U. Rismo]

how many times do we have to discuss this topic???

at the end of the day its not important. Look at the sales figures of EVERY GT game, nobody cares

I wouldn't say no one cares.

People who care about how the games sells (such as yourself), don't care.

Those of us who want GT to be the best it can be (like myself), care.

PD has gotten so many little details right, that it should boggle our minds. Things like how the light casted from a car's headlight hitting the plastic shell on the headlights of the Subaru seen in the GamesCom demo are testaments to how refine these details get.

When it comes to a detail that can make a race seem more alive I would think that we'd be all for it.

I'm a new poster here but I've been lurking for a while. I don't understand the whole damage control aspect people have when it comes to these features. People have said that "we don't need damage" and "we don't need manufacturer parts or tires"...but the game would be better if it had those things. It's a knee jerk response because other games have it and this series doesn't.

Wake up people.

Don't judge a game by it's sales. Judge it by measuring how much fun it is and the features it has.

When it comes to tire marks I think it's about time the GT series had it. There is no technological excuse, as we can see it's the best looking racer out there because of the great artists and programmers at PD.

A common complaint about GT is that the tracks look too sterile. PD has thrown in people and flags to make it look more alive, but that wasn't the problem. The problem was that you didn't see any tire marks on the road or dirt marks in the grass. When you race an 8 lap race that track should look more and more like a race just occurred on it. I would much rather have these tire marks than the odd person cheering in the odd location.

Forget this sales argument. "Declining sales" isn't a reason to include tire marks. "Selling just fine without it" isn't a reason to not have this feature.

It's about getting the best racing game we can get.

 

[serversurfer]

I don't understand the whole damage control aspect people have when it comes to these features. People have said that "we don't need damage" and "we don't need manufacturer parts or tires"...but the game would be better if it had those things. It's a knee jerk response because other games have it and this series doesn't.

To be fair, I think a lot of what you see is in response to statements like, "GT sucks because it doesn't have ____!" Sure, GT would be a better game with tire marks, damage, reverse lights, or any number of other features. I don't think anyone is disputing that. What people dispute is the assertions that it's a "bad game" without those features, because it clearly isn't.

… as evidenced by its sales.

 

[BlackZ28]

I agree. It's like making a shooting game without blood.

More like a gun without it's sights!

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

Maybe the color changing tread indicator is not the most in-depth, and it may not be very detailed, but I've seen from personal experience where tires wore down differently; once I set up the car suspension so bad that the right side tires were chili red while the left side was perfectly green. One other time I had the front right tire wear faster than the rest. So the tire wear IS independant, it's just that unless you mess up the settings so badly (like I did then ), the difference is not very pronounced.

I am not talking about individual tire wear. I am talking about the tire wear on the tire itself. If I pick the left front tire I have no idea at all what spot is wearing out on that front left tire in the GT series. In Forza you know exactly where the tire is wearing out. So if you have too much negative camber the inside of that front left tire will start turning red and the outer part of that tire will still be green. In GT the entire tire will turn red even though only the inside is wearing out.

Just like this quick diagram I made.

 

[Nomino]

I am not talking about individual tire wear. I am talking about the tire wear on the tire itself. If I pick the left front tire I have no idea at all what spot is wearing out on that front left tire in the GT series. In Forza you know exactly where the tire is wearing out. So if you have too much negative camber the inside of that front left tire will start turning red and the outer part of that tire will still be green. In GT the entire tire will turn red even though only the inside is wearing out.

Just like this quick diagram I made.

So tell that to Polyphony Digital, not us...

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

So tell that to Polyphony Digital, not us...

This is the "official GT" site. This is as close as I will get to actually talking to PD. Besides PD never even listens to the community.

 

[El Drifto]

This is the "official GT" site. This is as close as I will get to actually talking to PD. Besides PD never even listens to the community.

It looks like they actually do.

Now regarding tyre marks, I think PD have not implemented them as it would allow players to abuse the lovely ground textures.
...only joking lol.

Maybe it just wasn't a big deal to them.

 

[Cobra_NZ]

This is the "official GT" site. This is as close as I will get to actually talking to PD. Besides PD never even listens to the community.

I know exactly what you mean CAMAROBOY69. Hopefully, that level of tyre wear will make it into GT5. This is a GT site and you have every right to post on the subject and on the thread. Pay no attention to some of the attitude you get on here, ignore them.

As for PD not listening to the community, they might have just started to. I hope so for their own good.