Will the relatively poor sales of GT6 affect the development of GTSport?

[jimipitbull]

Sometimes it takes a firm hand to teach some one something, and sometime some just deserve a good beating. Down the road it could help them.

Except in this case you are trying to use negative reinforcement to diffuse a negative outlook. Like, if Imari was a mighty duck, do you really think a goose splashing water while his back is turned is going to ruffle enough feathers to unleash a beautiful swan from within?

 

[Tornado]

You don't know how video game business works, they knowingly make games that are likely to leave them in the red knowing that a Uncharted or GT will pay for them couple times over.

This is certainly news to me. What was the last huge budget game that a publisher purposefully lost money on just because a completely unrelated game would make money so whatever? Only example I can think of is the original Shenmue; which probably isn't the company Sony should be emulating.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Good to see PDI are still top in the genre and breaking new ground with GT SPORT.

Future of GT looks bright:
"Gran Turismo looks forward to shaping the next 100 years of motorsports as a partner with the FIA."

 

[Samus]

To say that PR statement is ambitious would be quite an understatement.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

To say that PR statement is ambitious would be quite an understatement.

I like PDI for being ambitious.

 

[MKVSupra]

You seem stuck on this historical figure. It's not about the historical figure, it's about what they're doing right now. That money has come and gone. Like you said, they probably spent it supporting other games that didn't make money. So GT needs to keep being successful, keep bringing in the money, to allow Sony to continue to do that.

The post that you quoted was made before we had hard figures on sales. Knowing now that GT6 sold ~5 million, it's fairly clear that they at least broke even, based on even the most pessimistic projections. On the other hand, they probably didn't rake it in on the scale of any other GT game either. They're not in the precarious position that they
could have been had GT6 gone really badly, but nor do I think that they're in as strong a position as they were in say, the early 2000s.

But this is unlikely to go anywhere. You're convinced that Polyphony is immune to anything happening to them, on the basis of them having sold a lot of stuff in the past. I think Sony makes decisions based on what Polyphony is likely to be able to do for them in the future. At the moment it seems pretty clear that Polyphony is still a valuable asset, although I make no apologies for speculation when we had less information, and I maintain that if they were to start slipping they would be in the same position as any other developer that failed to make money.

Sony have shown in the past that they're willing to shut devs down. See Studio Liverpool, which in it's day was highly iconic to the PS brand.

But you carry on. You've been so abusive that you're going straight on the ignore list, so feel free to rant some more. I'm sure some people will get a kick out of it, and it'll probably make you feel better.

Only one stuck is you, stuck with a blind unwarranted negativity towards GT.

I don't think anyone is immune to anything in gaming, this is one of the harshest business in the world. Im just not a hater and can plainly see decades of unmatched success GT has had and is having.

Looking at things in a open mind way, there is no facts to support any worry or negativity towards GT. Just a bunch of haters like you spewing wishful negativity towards GT and PD. Usual backed by no facts just hearsay as iv already said. As this thread shows you haters will just on any bs you can find to bring it here and **** talk Gt and PD.

Truth came out and shut up some just not enough of you.

5 million is low sales now right?

By the way LP studios was entire different then PD who has a single purpose in WW family. LPs became partially useless after losing the F1 license and their support for handhled became a liability. Id agree if PD stopped working on GT they may have to be put out to pasture.

 

[MKVSupra]

This is certainly news to me. What was the last huge budget game that a publisher purposefully lost money on just because a completely unrelated game would make money so whatever? Only example I can think of is the original Shenmue; which probably isn't the company Sony should be emulating.

Sony like MS and Nin have a different out look to some one like Ea and all the others.

They own the platform they have to support it even if it costs them, part of that is releasing a game that is expected not to be profitable. Even bigger PS3 cost them but they didnt kill it and start fresh. That would damage the brand, so they ate the losses in order to secure a future. And that became the runaway success that is the PS4.

You know that only 4 out of 10 games Sony releases is profitable ? you think these guys don't know damn well which is a high probability of profit and which is not. A game in the red can be attributed as a expense of supporting the platform, the PS console. Of course their are flops or a few loses in a row that are to big to eat or tolerate and a dev is canned. I'm not pretending they are all smiles and giggles about a loss. They just expect a few to be a loss and see it as a cost for the greater good.

 

[Samus]

5 million is low sales now right?

For a mainline GT game, relatively speaking, yes. It's the lowest selling by around 4 million units. Even if they did still make money on those sales, and they probably did, it's still not something you just shrug off.

 

[MKVSupra]

For a mainline GT game, relatively speaking, yes. It's the lowest selling by around 4 million units. Even if they did still make money on those sales, and they probably did, it's still not something you just shrug off.

How about speaking with a honest intelligent view on things.

-First GT to release after a new gen started, limited marketing.
-Sold 2.5 time more then its nearest greatest rival (F5) By the way (Gt5 out sold F4 by a lesser margin.)
- Out sold NFS Rivals, which released on 4 consoles.

So relatively speaking GT6 is the greatest racing game success in recent times.

Hell Project cars is only past 1m, on 3 major platforms.

If some one wishes to prove me wrong go for it, but im confident there is no PS3 or 360 exclusive to launch after new gen released to sale anywhere near as much as GT6. Hell it may be one if not the one greatest selling exclusive that was released after a new gen started. Maybe some casual game on wii after the wiiu released, but id doubt even that.

If you understand the business. You would get why 5m is a mega success and show of strength for the franchise. Old gen software sales drop like a rock after a new gen hits. Worst yet GT sales were faced with the PS4 phenomenon.

You all will be stunned how great GT sales like on PS4. Many games surprising sales are attributed to the well PS4 effect explains it these days.

 

[Earth]

A 50% reduction in sales is significant no matter what your original sales were. McDonalds may sell a million hamburgers today but if tomorrow that number dropped to half a million they would probably loser their mind. They dont say 'well half a million is still alot'.

@MKVSupra Im not sure why your defending PD so much. They made it clear they loathe the fanbase and have great contempt for us after the 'Ask Kaz' thing fell to pieces.

Sales dont mean much. The awful Transformers movies bring in 1 billion bucks, and rehashed Call of Duty sales 10 million copies every year.

Gran Turismo isnt a bad racing game, its just an old fashioned racing game that has stubbornly refused to update itself for modern times. Something as simple and primitive as some sort of difficulty scaling has managed to elude the franchise. You may be happy playing the same old worn out GT for the past 10 years, but I would like it to finally join the modern racing genre and add a livery editor, real custom races/championships and more.

I wouldnt be too hyped for GT sales on PS4. From what I've seen on the web, the hype is nowhere near what they had for Gran Turismo 5 Prologue. Unless they deliver on all their promises (unlikely since they've exaggerated and lied greatly in the past) GT Sport is going to sell poorly for a GT title, and will represent another step back for the franchise.

 

[MKVSupra]

A 50% reduction in sales is significant no matter what your original sales were. McDonalds may sell a million hamburgers today but if tomorrow that number dropped to half a million they would probably loser their mind. They dont say 'well half a million is still alot'.

@MKVSupra Im not sure why your defending PD so much. They made it clear they loathe the fanbase and have great contempt for us after the 'Ask Kaz' thing fell to pieces.

Sales dont mean much. The awful Transformers movies bring in 1 billion bucks, and rehashed Call of Duty sales 10 million copies every year.

Gran Turismo isnt a bad racing game, its just an old fashioned racing game that has stubbornly refused to update itself for modern times. Something as simple and primitive as some sort of difficulty scaling has managed to elude the franchise. You may be happy playing the same old worn out GT for the past 10 years, but I would like it to finally join the modern racing genre and add a livery editor, real custom races/championships and more.

I wouldnt be too hyped for GT sales on PS4. From what I've seen on the web, the hype is nowhere near what they had for Gran Turismo 5 Prologue. Unless they deliver on all their promises (unlikely since they've exaggerated and lied greatly in the past) GT Sport is going to sell poorly for a GT title, and will represent another step back for the franchise.

Lets put some money on it then, i say next Gt what ever the hell it is will out sale GT6. I guess you say opposite. 100$ to make things fun.

 

[Samus]

How about speaking with a honest intelligent view on things.

-First GT to release after a new gen started, limited marketing.
-Sold 2.5 time more then its nearest greatest rival (F5) By the way (Gt5 out sold F4 by a lesser margin.)
- Out sold NFS Rivals, which released on 4 consoles.

So relatively speaking GT6 is the greatest racing game success in recent times.

Hell Project cars is only past 1m, on 3 major platforms.

If some one wishes to prove me wrong go for it, but im confident there is no PS3 or 360 exclusive to launch after new gen released to sale anywhere near as much as GT6. Hell it may be one if not the one greatest selling exclusive that was released after a new gen started. Maybe some casual game on wii after the wiiu released, but id doubt even that.

If you understand the business. You would get why 5m is a mega success and show of strength for the franchise. Old gen software sales drop like a rock after a new gen hits. Worst yet GT sales were faced with the PS4 phenomenon.

You all will be stunned how great GT sales like on PS4. Many games surprising sales are attributed to the well PS4 effect explains it these days.

Honest and intelligent? Is that supposed to be an insult, because what I posted was based purely on facts. We all know that GT6 launched after PS4 launched, we all know it's continually used as the reason GT6 didn't sell so well but the fact is, we don't know. What we do know is that when PS4 came out everyone with a PS3 didn't sell up and buy one. They still haven't. It would be idiotic of me to claim the PS4 launch had nothing to do with the sales but on the other hand none of us know just how much an impact it had.

Yes, GT sells more than it's competitors, I never claimed otherwise, but as Earth says companies look at their sales first and foremost in comparison to themselves, unless it's the first product. When one sells significantly less than the previous, you can't ignore that and shrug it off, like I said.

FWIW I'm pretty sure GTS on PS4 will sell like hot cakes, but that isn't what this thread was asking. It was asking what impact the sales of GT6 would have on PD going forward into that game and I believe it would have had an impact on them. Panic stations, fire the team, fire the boss, start from scratch scale impact? No, obviously not, but an impact all the same.

Put simply, you don't lose up to 50% of your sales and just put it down to one or two outside factors and carry on as you were. You have to look at the product as well.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Sounds quite ludicrous all this talk about GT potentially getting axed. I mean ain't GT the most successful and most profitable exclusive franchise for Sony PlayStation by a massive margin? GT6 may still become second largest selling Sony PS3 exclusive title only behind GT5 whilst releasing after PS4 came out.

So let's consider being top dog of Sony Computer Entertainment Worldwide Studios and genre being not good enough. What about reach of PlayStation brand PDI have achieved with GT? Things like GT Academy, Vision GT and work they are doing with FIA. Brand awareness must be huge and I think all this work will make GT likely still a big system seller.

 

[MKVSupra]

Honest and intelligent? Is that supposed to be an insult, because what I posted was based purely on facts. We all know that GT6 launched after PS4 launched, we all know it's continually used as the reason GT6 didn't sell so well but the fact is, we don't know. What we do know is that when PS4 came out everyone with a PS3 didn't sell up and buy one. They still haven't. It would be idiotic of me to claim the PS4 launch had nothing to do with the sales but on the other hand none of us know just how much an impact it had.

Yes, GT sells more than it's competitors, I never claimed otherwise, but as Earth says companies look at their sales first and foremost in comparison to themselves, unless it's the first product. When one sells significantly less than the previous, you can't ignore that and shrug it off, like I said.

FWIW I'm pretty sure GTS on PS4 will sell like hot cakes, but that isn't what this thread was asking. It was asking what impact the sales of GT6 would have on PD going forward into that game and I believe it would have had an impact on them. Panic stations, fire the team, fire the boss, start from scratch scale impact? No, obviously not, but an impact all the same.

Put simply, you don't lose up to 50% of your sales and just put it down to one or two outside factors and carry on as you were. You have to look at the product as well.

not all all just wanted a good intelligent discussion.

But i see most on here lack a basic understanding of the industry.

Given those to factors are as big as they can possibly be short of war or alien invasion, yahh you can put it down to just that and move on as if nothing happened.

Just how is a game to sale if its marketing budget is cut to the point there is no Tv commercial for it in NA for it. I guess Sony is so dumb they thought they would get same sales with far less marketing right.

 

[Samus]

not all all just wanted a good intelligent discussion.

But i see most on here lack a basic understanding of the industry.

Given those to factors are as big as they can possibly be short of war or alien invasion, yahh you can put it down to just that and move on as if nothing happened.

Just how is a game to sale if its marketing budget is cut to the point there is no Tv commercial for it in NA for it. I guess Sony is so dumb they thought they would get same sales with far less marketing right.

..and what makes you an expert on the industry? Could you tell us some of your credentials?

How many sales does a TV commercial bring in? Do you have the figures? I very rarely see TV commercials for games these days in the UK unless it's a cable channel. Even then it's usually Call of Duty, Destiny, Halo etc. If there was a GT5 commercial I don't remember it. I remember one for the Forza games but they weren't exactly widespread, I saw it a couple of times at best. Most advertising these days is done online.

As for PS4, even today there aren't anywhere close to the number of PS3s out there so how can you be so sure that was such the huge factor? Do you have any figures to illustrate the impact it had? There were (and are) still a heck of a lot of active PS3s out there.

Look for the final time I'm not denying these were contributing factors but if it were me, and my product had such a huge drop, I'd at least spend some time considering other factors. You'd have to have quite the ego to just completely wipe it off as having absolutely nothing to do with the game itself. You have to at least explore the possibility, and I'm sure PD did. They'll have a lot more data than we did.

 

[Imari]

Sounds quite ludicrous all this talk about GT potentially getting axed.

Consider that the conversation started before we had real numbers, and that estimates generally were somewhere between 2-4 million copies.

Add in that nobody that I can recall suggested the GT would get axed straight away, but that if GT7 (or I suppose GTS now) were to sell similar numbers then that might put Polyphony in the position of getting shut down.

I don't think that logic is particularly flawed. If GT6 had sold 3 million, and then GTS sold 3 million, that would probably be fair cause for Sony to have a serious look at what was going on.

We know now that GT6 sold more than that, and that GTS is likely to be somewhat of a departure from the traditional GT formula. Which could well be a reaction to the reception of GT6, or it could be something they've been planning for some time. We'll never know.

Even if GTS doesn't sell particularly well, Polyphony will likely simply be told to go back to making simplistic RPG racers with huge content lists, because that's safe. At this point, I don't see that there's any real danger to them until after GT7 at least. They would have to bomb GTS and GT7, which is always possible but seems unlikely.

On the other hand, production costs will be going up as they expand their team, and real support for an online focused game won't be cheap. They're not like pCARS, where the budget was only $5 million. You don't have to sell much to make back $5 million. Polyphony probably pays more than that in yearly salaries, not counting all the other costs of producing such a game, and so the bar for them to count as successful is much higher.

One of the issues with being a big seller is that the costs of producing such a game are high, and so magnifies any result. Successes turn into big successes, but failures are correspondingly large too. The most pCARS could lose was $5 million (and not even that, considering their funding model), whereas any given GT game stands to lose $50 million or more if it goes tits up.

I think one of the other contributing factors was the assumption that Polyphony would refuse to adapt. Fueled largely by the evidence of GT6 largely failing to adapt to GT5's largest design flaws. From what little we know, GTS at least seems to be attempting to break new ground, so I think that for now at least the idea that Polyphony would keep remaking GT1 until it killed them can be discarded.

The whole conversation changed once we got real sales numbers, but users are still quoting back to posts before that. It's not helping. Although the topic question still stands up well, and I think it's fair to say that it's definitely possible that GTS was affected by the relatively poor sales of GT6.

 

[occasionalracer]

A 50% reduction in sales is significant no matter what your original sales were. McDonalds may sell a million hamburgers today but if tomorrow that number dropped to half a million they would probably loser their mind. They dont say 'well half a million is still alot'.

True.

@MKVSupra Im not sure why your defending PD so much. They made it clear they loathe the fanbase and have great contempt for us after the 'Ask Kaz' thing fell to pieces.

In my opinion they did the right thing to disaffiliate themselves from a website where repetitive grouching lingers (spawned by a handful of long time grouch members) which then tends to spread further and further until it almost seems like it should be norm that GT is looked at. Why would PD want to release information on a site that many many gaming sites will visit to copy and paste to their site and also collect this additional 'GT/Kaz has it all wrong' atmosphere?

Sales dont mean much. The awful Transformers movies bring in 1 billion bucks, and rehashed Call of Duty sales 10 million copies every year.

So you're saying the previous 10mil. figures were more in line with mainstream pop, or 5mil. is just about 'right'?

Gran Turismo isnt a bad racing game, its just an old fashioned racing game that has stubbornly refused to update itself for modern times. Something as simple and primitive as some sort of difficulty scaling has managed to elude the franchise. You may be happy playing the same old worn out GT for the past 10 years, but I would like it to finally join the modern racing genre and add a livery editor, real custom races/championships and more.

You think there's ~5mil. people sitting waiting for those features? Hmm.

I wouldnt be too hyped for GT sales on PS4. From what I've seen on the web, the hype is nowhere near what they had for Gran Turismo 5 Prologue. Unless they deliver on all their promises (unlikely since they've exaggerated and lied greatly in the past) GT Sport is going to sell poorly for a GT title, and will represent another step back for the franchise.

That's because we were heading into an era of HD. It was going to be awesome to play GT with such lifelike graphics. I don't think we will see GTS/7 surpass 10 mil. again, but it won't be because of 'mistakes', but a grand shift in how an entire generation of people play games now. Again, there are simply not 5 million people out there pissed off at PD for broken promises. Also we were also never greatly lied to. It really is best PD just move along quietly at their own pace.

Not directing this personally at you Earth, but seriously people try to find anything they can to show PD are making horrendous design decisions. Of course there are plenty of great 'words of advice' coming from this forum, but, nobody seems to think about a chunk of this decline being a potential part of the gaming industry's changing landscape.

 

[1241Penguin]

not all all just wanted a good intelligent discussion.

And what better way to encourage intelligent discussion than by spewing out ad hominems, right?

 

[occasionalracer]

On the other hand, production costs will be going up as they expand their team, and real support for an online focused game won't be cheap. They're not like pCARS, where the budget was only $5 million. You don't have to sell much to make back $5 million. Polyphony probably pays more than that in yearly salaries, not counting all the other costs of producing such a game, and so the bar for them to count as successful is much higher.

One of the issues with being a big seller is that the costs of producing such a game are high, and so magnifies any result. Successes turn into big successes, but failures are correspondingly large too. The most pCARS could lose was $5 million (and not even that, considering their funding model), whereas any given GT game stands to lose $50 million or more if it goes tits up.

A reason why I'm worried. If the continueing rising cost for their new hires, sending crews around the world to scan and photograph cars and tracks, etc. etc., and you have a not so good turnout of 2-3 million on a new console, it's not going to be a good day for them. But hey, on top of that you have a crowd of 21. Century people moaning about what they didn't get for their measly $60.. that's 2 or 3 hours paid to one single employee. People need to think about this more. Really, PD could have and should have dropped a few DLC's, but we'll see how much content they actualy have that's new when GT Sport and GT7 hit.

 

[Tornado]

In my opinion they did the right thing to disaffiliate themselves from a website where repetitive grouching lingers (spawned by a handful of long time grouch members) which then tends to spread further and further until it almost seems like it should be norm that GT is looked at. Why would PD want to release information on a site that many many gaming sites will visit to copy and paste to their site and also collect this additional 'GT/Kaz has it all wrong' atmosphere?

That's a good question. Since it was almost certainly PD's idea in the first place, someone will have to ask them why a company with hundreds of millions in sales per title couldn't follow up on their own PR program with a site they had already been paying attention to because some people were mean on the Internet.



Maybe Jordan can make a subforum about it at PD's request.

 

[occasionalracer]

That's a good question. Since it was almost certainly PD's idea in the first place, someone will have to ask them why a company with hundreds of millions sales per title couldn't follow up on their own PR program because some people were mean on the Internet.



Maybe Jordan can make a subforum about it at PD's request.

Right. But there's always this thing called change of plans/change of minds that businesses make. Surely there was a reason. Would have been nice if they continued I guess.. but at the end of the day the game will be what it will be. They just need to listen to cool ideas, that's all.

 

[Imari]

...but, nobody seems to think about a chunk of this decline being a potential part of the gaming industry's changing landscape.

There's this as well. It may well be that a racing game of the GT/FM sort never sells 10 million again. It may be that there was a golden age for this sort of game between 1998 and 2010, and that there isn't the market there to support these huge high budget games.

Maybe there's only a market for a $5-20 million game, that sells a few million at absolute best. In such a situation, making $60 million+ games is quite dangerous.

I also agree that they need to start dropping paid DLC. There are people that are more than happy to pay for that, and it's money that Polyphony and Sony are missing out on.

 

[The Chosen One]

"relatively poor"

Sales: ~5 million
"relatively poor"

 

[occasionalracer]

There's this as well. It may well be that a racing game of the GT/FM sort never sells 10 million again. It may be that there was a golden age for this sort of game between 1998 and 2010, and that there isn't the market there to support these huge high budget games.

Maybe there's only a market for a $5-20 million game, that sells a few million at absolute best. In such a situation, making $60 million+ games is quite dangerous.

I also agree that they need to start dropping paid DLC. There are people that are more than happy to pay for that, and it's money that Polyphony and Sony are missing out on.

Yes, realistically I would assume there are maybe 1 million big time GT fans that will purchase every good DLC that comes along. I have faith they will be good pacages for a good price seeing how they did it for GT5 and.. 6 (no).

I'm a bit amazed at how the other guys (minus T10) are able to go around and get 'rights'/licenses to cars and tracks, scan them and pay their folks and turn profit when the game's sales are by far below what GT has enjoyed. Of course the great thing is Sony is behind them if things get shaky, which we should be thankful for, because no studio will go so far (beside T10 again) to give players the chance to play with so much content (assuming GT7 will be HUGE). I really hope it doesn't beome like that though. Because on the other hand there's also an entire generation of adults who 'should' like driving and 'should' be intrigued to try this new GT game that's out there on this PS4 . Sales should be quite high.

 

[Earth]

Lets put some money on it then, i say next Gt what ever the hell it is will out sale GT6. I guess you say opposite. 100$ to make things fun.

Theres no way GT Sport is selling over 5 million copies.

In my opinion they did the right thing to disaffiliate themselves from a website where repetitive grouching lingers (spawned by a handful of long time grouch members) which then tends to spread further and further until it almost seems like it should be norm that GT is looked at. Why would PD want to release information on a site that many many gaming sites will visit to copy and paste to their site and also collect this additional 'GT/Kaz has it all wrong' atmosphere?

If you're going to be a professional entertainer, you have to be able to take criticism. If Kaz turns away from anybody who criticizes him, then it makes even more sense why GT has fallen as much as it has. Some people just lose 'it'. Look at 1970s George Lucas. Amazing. Now look at The Phantom Menance George Lucas. Not so much. So now they've injected some fresh blood into Star Wars and its looking great.

That's because we were heading into an era of HD. It was going to be awesome to play GT with such lifelike graphics. I don't think we will see GTS/7 surpass 10 mil. again, but it won't be because of 'mistakes', but a grand shift in how an entire generation of people play games now. Again, there are simply not 5 million people out there pissed off at PD for broken promises. Also we were also never greatly lied to. It really is best PD just move along quietly at their own pace.

Not directing this personally at you Earth, but seriously people try to find anything they can to show PD are making horrendous design decisions. Of course there are plenty of great 'words of advice' coming from this forum, but, nobody seems to think about a chunk of this decline being a potential part of the gaming industry's changing landscape.

Interesting that you bring up the changing landscape of the gaming industry as a possible reason for the steep decline in GT sales.

I think the gaming landscape has more to do with Forza's weak sales then it does with Gran Turismo's decline. The people who own the Xbox just arent interested in racers. They're interested in shooters. Its also why Japanese RPGs always tank on the Xbox. The people who are attracted to the Xbox brand are in it for Halo, Gears of War, etc. They're not there to play simulation racing games. Thats why Final Fantasy XIII sold like 400% more copies on the PS3 then it did on the 360. Different userbases with different tastes.

Now, its worth pointing out that Gran Turismo 5 did sell 10 million copies just five short years ago. The people who like racing sims are still there on Playstation. But GT6 performed miserably and sold just half that.

We cannot understate the damage GT5 did to the Gran Turismo brand. I know people who played GT5 Prologue for 2 years straight leading up to GT5's launch, and then played GT5 for 2 weeks and I never saw them again. GT6 was certainly not on their radar. I've been a GT fan since GT1. Bought every single Title Day 1. But I skipped GT6. GT5 did alot of things to turn people off from the series, most of which were not fixed in GT6. So there was no reason to continue with the series for me and millions of others.

If you look at what Media Molecule is doing with their newest game, Dreams, they're innovating and redefining their "user generated content" genre. PD and Kaz seem to think GT Academy and FIA championships is innovating and redefining their genre. And thats why I think GT is failing and will continue to fail - their ideas to push the genre forward are flawed and will only lead to failure, IMO of course.

Look at what Hideo Kojima did with Metal Gear Solid 5. That is innovating and redefining your genre and pushing it forward. Its not just the fact he made it openworld, but also the game borrowed heavily from mobile titles, including the addictiveness of base construction management and defense.

Meanwhile Kaz thinks glorified time trials are taking his games to the next level. To be fair Turn 10 and Dan Greenawalt are only doing just a little bit better, but not alot. I guess we tend to forget that while there may be 150 employees at PD, only a few at most are actually calling the shots about what new features the game is going to get. With only a few people they're bound to run out of ideas eventually. This is why CEOs and other heads need to be replaced every now and then. When you fail to push your product forward and it becomes stagnant its time for change.

 

[1241Penguin]

"relatively poor"

Sales: ~5 million
"relatively poor"

The next worst selling GT game is GT2 with just over 9 million copies sold. All others are above 10 million. So yes, "relatively poor ."

 

[glassjaw]

There's this as well. It may well be that a racing game of the GT/FM sort never sells 10 million again. It may be that there was a golden age for this sort of game between 1998 and 2010, and that there isn't the market there to support these huge high budget games..

The genre is in its twilight in terms of console record-setting sales. GT was a novelty during the PS1 and PS2 generations and I think it's unlikely we see that kind of market performance for a game advertised as a sim ever again. Don't get me wrong, it's still a big franchise for Sony and will sell a couple million easily (likely more than Forza, Project Cars or any of its competitors ever will), but Sony, like any good business, has no doubt recognized falling sales and will respond accordingly. Whether that means limiting PD's budget or influencing game direction in the future I'm not completely sure.

Kaz no doubt has earned his right to make the game he wants to make, so I'm inclined to think Sony won't push him too hard. But I'd argue keeping PD on a tighter budget in the future is completely justifiable.

 

[Imari]

The genre is in its twilight in terms of console record-setting sales. GT was a novelty during the PS1 and PS2 generations and I think it's unlikely we see that kind of market performance for a game advertised as a sim ever again.

Probably not. At the time you could be more simulation-y than most, and still include some highly arcade-ish aspects. Driving GT1 today is hilarious fun, but it's only a simulation in comparison to it's contemporaries. By today's standards it's super arcade.

Now games are having to be real simulators simply to one-up their competitors, and it's not as fun to Joe Bloggs. I figure GT3 was similar to DC is now. It's kind of like a simulation, it's enough to make you believe, but it flatters you at the same time. It makes you feel like a hero driver. It's the perfect combination of being able to call yourself a simulator, but only taking it so far.

GT6 and FM6 are just tough for your average driver to feel awesome at, unless you start putting assists on which doesn't make anyone feel like a hero driver.

It may be possible that someone revitalises the genre again, but I suspect that pure simulation is always going to be pretty niche. The closer GT/FM get to that simulation, the more niche they become.

 

[occasionalracer]

Interesting that you bring up the changing landscape of the gaming industry as a possible reason for the steep decline in GT sales.

I think the gaming landscape has more to do with Forza's weak sales then it does with Gran Turismo's decline. The people who own the Xbox just arent interested in racers. They're interested in shooters. Its also why Japanese RPGs always tank on the Xbox. The people who are attracted to the Xbox brand are in it for Halo, Gears of War, etc. They're not there to play simulation racing games. Thats why Final Fantasy XIII sold like 400% more copies on the PS3 then it did on the 360. Different userbases with different tastes.

Ok, so that's Forzas/Microsofts inherant problem more than a potential decline in an overall want for racing driving sim games.

Now, its worth pointing out that Gran Turismo 5 did sell 10 million copies just five short years ago. The people who like racing sims are still there on Playstation. But GT6 performed miserably and sold just half that.

We cannot understate the damage GT5 did to the Gran Turismo brand. I know people who played GT5 Prologue for 2 years straight leading up to GT5's launch, and then played GT5 for 2 weeks and I never saw them again. GT6 was certainly not on their radar. I've been a GT fan since GT1. Bought every single Title Day 1. But I skipped GT6. GT5 did alot of things to turn people off from the series, most of which were not fixed in GT6. So there was no reason to continue with the series for me and millions of others.

That GT6 sold much lower is strange, it can only be attributed to the fact peoples gaming habits have changed and generally a large portion of players maybe don't care about another 'very similar' GT. No matter what, 5 million people aren't thinking what you or some others on GTPlanet think about GT5. Too bad you didn't continue the tradition of buying GT. I was maybe expecting online aspects to be hugely improved and tires and physics (since we learned about the K&W and Yokohoma Tires partnerships), and slightly more up-to-date car content, but I guess not.

If you look at what Media Molecule is doing with their newest game, Dreams, they're innovating and redefining their "user generated content" genre. PD and Kaz seem to think GT Academy and FIA championships is innovating and redefining their genre. And thats why I think GT is failing and will continue to fail - their ideas to push the genre forward are flawed and will only lead to failure, IMO of course.

Look at what Hideo Kojima did with Metal Gear Solid 5. That is innovating and redefining your genre and pushing it forward. Its not just the fact he made it openworld, but also the game borrowed heavily from mobile titles, including the addictiveness of base construction management and defense.

With a racing game, there is only so much you can innovate. It's always going to be racing on a track with others no matter what cool things you can do outside that. PD and Kaz are not dreaming. They continue to make meaningfull buisness relationships with the most elite in the automotive and racing industry. It just hasn't panned out yet probably because it's a lot to handle and was certainly a lost cause to tamper with PS3 code, so a medicore GT6 was the short term answer.

It will be interesting what PD see fit to add as a 'groundbreaking' feature within a driving/racing game. We all know here that core gameplay is needed and we all know what that means. I think it's also important to stick to the tried and true formula and maintain the 'everyday' car roster that has made GT so popular. Content is what GT has on it's side, it needs to continue that without getting into some hardcore racing simulator game. This is what can draw in lots of the casulas who just like cars, whether they're new or old to the series, these millions of 'lost' fans are not huge on drving games anyway, so the game must be remarketed in a balanced way. A seperation of GT Sport and GT7 would be bad, I just think they should have different ways to play and keep everybody on the same game like they always have. This way everybody has a chance to learn from everybody.. ie. it'd be bad if the good drivers are all on GT Sport and stay there for their 'perfect simulation/physics experience'.

Meanwhile Kaz thinks glorified time trials are taking his games to the next level. To be fair Turn 10 and Dan Greenawalt are only doing just a little bit better, but not alot. I guess we tend to forget that while there may be 150 employees at PD, only a few at most are actually calling the shots about what new features the game is going to get. With only a few people they're bound to run out of ideas eventually. This is why CEOs and other heads need to be replaced every now and then. When you fail to push your product forward and it becomes stagnant its time for change.

I am very sure he doesn't think that. I also think GT6 was a decision made hesitently, with the initial plan being ready for PS4 release, but of course working with Sony maybe they decided releasing alongside Morpheus would be the ultimate marketing strategy. This is why GT6 is nothing special and to make assumptions about the collapse of PD and 'Kaz's Vision' (bla bla) is very short sighted. It's a racing game, there is really not much to expect in a groundbreaking way, it's just going to be a challange to be perfectly accurate in ways of physics and racing rules, ranking and online stability, yet, be a super fun way to just play with cars and tending to people for just want to look at and experience different cars. Personal dream: 1200 PREMIUMS.

 

[gtracedriver1]

The next worst selling GT game is GT2 with just over 9 million copies sold. All others are above 10 million. So yes, "relatively poor ."

Now there are many racing games on market. So more competition and also other racing games are selling worse. The next best after GT is Forza and Microsoft does not reveal it numbers for obvious reason . It doubt the series has even reached 25million