Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[SlipZtrEm]

The Standards in GT5 will look better. Cant wait to see the top photographer go to work on these standard 👍

Actually, unless they update the car models and textures... they won't. Most of us who edit our pictures actually clean up the textures or re-draw the panel gaps and reflections by hand. That 205 actually has new high-res stickers added in. A lot of the guys post their originals and their final edits; compare the two and you'll see just how far people go to fix the issues. Alexwrc, Franz, and Moglet being just the first three that pop to mind.

So in that sense, I can agree with Tenacious at least in the sense that unedited images better represent GT4. Using the pictures you used as any kind of indicator of what GT5 will look like makes no sense, because you're showcasing a lot of PS work that a member did, on a GT4 base.

Though, don't get me wrong; it can be a lot of fun, and I know I'll be spending countless hours in Photomode for that reason 👍. I just will probably avoid Standards unless I really feel like going back to the days of lots of PS work .

He obviously misunderstood what I wrote.

I don't know if I should be surprised or not?
It seemed pretty straight-forward to me!

 

[JDMKING13]

Actually, unless they update the car models and textures... they won't. Most of us who edit our pictures actually clean up the textures or re-draw the panel gaps and reflections by hand. That 205 actually has new high-res stickers added in. A lot of the guys post their originals and their final edits; compare the two and you'll see just how far people go to fix the issues. Alexwrc, Franz, and Moglet being just the first three that pop to mind.

So in that sense, I can agree with Tenacious at least in the sense that unedited images better represent GT4. Using the pictures you used as any kind of indicator of what GT5 will look like makes no sense, because you're showcasing a lot of PS work that a member did, on a GT4 base.

Though, don't get me wrong; it can be a lot of fun, and I know I'll be spending countless hours in Photomode for that reason 👍. I just will probably avoid Standards unless I really feel like going back to the days of lots of PS work .

What i was saying Slip is that the Standard cars pictures we have so far look better than those Edited GT4 Pics IMO. Saying that I feel the phtotgraphers will make GT5 standard cars look even better than what they did in GT4. Cant wait for you and the others show case your work in GT5.

 

[RedSuinit]

what's your problem this time? Are you disagreeing that GT games are always 2 or so years behind when it comes to model years?



He obviously misunderstood what I wrote.

Oh, you meant the actual real life vehicular models. Ok then, I retract my sarcasm from before. However there are some models that they are NOT that far behind on. Example: Mercedes Benz SLS AMG.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Outsourcing means you lose most of your quality control.

No, it means you probably got what you payed for.

They didn't outsource it for quality, but for cost/time reasons.

They also knew what the level of quality would be before they outsourced it.

I'm sure they could have gotten higher quality at a higher price and more time.

Whether that is "selfish" of Kaz is up to debate, I suppose.

Kaz's standard is much higher and it can only be met inhouse under his direction.

Likewise it is the least expensive route if that is what your goal is.

The biggest problem is: Higher quality = 5+ years.

 

[JAGUAR1977]

GT5 would first have to catch up with a lot of 2-3 year old models, before they start on brand new releases.

WIth PD's close relationship with manufactuers I envisage plenty of DLC being released when the RL car is launched.

 

[X-Power]

I'm wondering how many 'new' cars are in the game, it would be a bit odd to have the MkV Golf but not the MkVI Golf. Maybe some of the premiums are new generation's of cars that were in GT4. (e.g. '09 Focus aswell as '03 Focus) ?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

What i was saying Slip is that the Standard cars pictures we have so far look better than those Edited GT4 Pics IMO. Saying that I feel the phtotgraphers will make GT5 standard cars look even better than what they did in GT4. Cant wait for you and the others show case your work in GT5.

Ah... I think we're technically saying the same thing

Overall, image-wise, I'll agree. The pics will look better than the GT4 ones. The car models won't. The good thing is, the only job we'll have with cleanup in PS will be the textures and shutlines, and smoothing some jaggies; the reflections in GT5, the lighting, the blurs, and the surroundings, all look great.

Oh, you meant the actual real life vehicular models. Ok then, I retract my sarcasm from before. However there are some models that they are NOT that far behind on. Example: Mercedes Benz SLS AMG.

...Mercedes as a whole though (from what we've seen so far) is missing out on a lot of their current lineup. The SLR, SL55, C63, and SLS... only the last two are current. Very few cars from GT4 haven't been comprehensively overhauled or replaced, and we've got roughly 100 more Premium spots open to flesh that out. I think that's what Dave's trying to say.

 

[analog]

What I would find interesting to know what made them decide which cars "became" Premium or "remained" Standard which could depend on which strategy they chose from the beginning I guess.
By which I mean if they initially wanted to include only Premium cars without setting a limit on the amount ( perhaps thinking they would have the time to do more than the amount we're getting now ) would the choice of the cars have been different than knowing they could only do 200 in the end?

Kaz already sort of admitted they perhaps went a bit mad on the Premium cars and maybe halfway ( or before that ) realised they simply took too much time and had to make the compromise known as Standard cars to fill the gap ( or at least include more Standard cars if the intention was to include some all along ).
Would the cars ( or part of the selection ) already been modelled to Premium level before this realisation kicked in also have been chosen if the situation had been to create 200 max from the start?

Not saying anything about the Premium cars chosen by the way ( most we don't even know yet ) but I merely wondered as it would be logical to me if you would know beforehand a certain maximum amount of cars could be created to a better level of detail and having more features, you would carefully consider or handpick those cars which would be deemed suitable for whatever reason.
If it was without limit, you would just start somewhere and try to model each car without worrying about a selection as all cars will eventually have the same level of detail or "importance".

The whole strategy difference is just an assumption ofcourse, but a planned concession or a forced compromise could have a different outcome on the choice of which cars became Premium.

 

[X-Power]

You could be right. Another strategy could've been.... they decided to model the newest cars first, but then started to model older cars when they realised they couldn't get all the cars completed. Or they might have originally had 400 cars as their target but only achieved 200 so they ported GT4 cars over?

 

[Dan_]

I'm wondering how many 'new' cars are in the game, it would be a bit odd to have the MkV Golf but not the MkVI Golf. Maybe some of the premiums are new generation's of cars that were in GT4. (e.g. '09 Focus aswell as '03 Focus) ?

Here's hoping for the Scirocco and the MkVI GTi, but honestly I'd prefer if they focus on the sportiest cars available regardless of the year/model, when deciding which cars to model to Premium spec, I can go to a VW dealer and take a seat in any Golf, but I will never do something like this in a LFA or MP412C, don't take me wrong, the "common" everyday cars are what makes GT so awesome and unique, but throwing some high priced exotic Steel around tight corners is undeniably very funny too.

 

[maxpontiac]

Even though thats not the best looking FM3 picture I agree with you. If You look at some of the GT4 photomode pics you can see how good the cars look, I dont care if they are edited EX

The Standards in GT5 will look better.

For sure. My entire point of the highlighting the pictures is to point out the similarities from a visual standpoint when comparing GT5's "alleged" 2nd class citizens () to Forza 3's cars.

 

[JDMKING13]

For sure. My entire point of the highlighting the pictures is to point out the similarities from a visual standpoint when comparing GT5's "alleged" 2nd class citizens () to Forza 3's cars.

To funny I defiantly agree with you man 👍

Ah... I think we're technically saying the same thing

Overall, image-wise, I'll agree. The pics will look better than the GT4 ones. The car models won't. The good thing is, the only job we'll have with cleanup in PS will be the textures and shutlines, and smoothing some jaggies; the reflections in GT5, the lighting, the blurs, and the surroundings, all look great.

Ok cool I cant wait to see your work man 👍

 

[Devedander]

What has me excited (and not disappointed) over the Standard Cars is those pictures you show are from a PS2.

These two pictures are all anyone needs to see to relax their anxiety over the entire issue.

The simple fact that GT4 pics are comparable to Forza 3 is an amazing thing all in itself.

Take a look at these pictures people. What is a matter with you?

I would want to compare those at a more "normal use" size.

I understand the forum has limitations on what's acceptable and most of us have computer monitors smaller than our TVs, but honestly, a LOT looks good when it's small enough. Shrink it down to 320x240 and you might have problems picking Premium Gt5 cars from Gt4 cars IN Gt4.

Essentially showing small versions on a computer monitor isn't really the best test of quality when in reality most of us will be playing them on much larger screens even when accounting for seating distance.

 

[JDMKING13]

I would want to compare those at a more "normal use" size.

I understand the forum has limitations on what's acceptable and most of us have computer monitors smaller than our TVs, but honestly, a LOT looks good when it's small enough. Shrink it down to 320x240 and you might have problems picking Premium Gt5 cars from Gt4 cars IN Gt4.

Essentially showing small versions on a computer monitor isn't really the best test of quality when in reality most of us will be playing them on much larger screens even when accounting for seating distance.

Hmmm those pictures are pretty good size IMO. They are the size of pics that you normally see on a forum. Wondered why you said they need to be bigger?

I mean these picture are in similar size, but the second forza3 picture looks better If it was the second Forza3 picture compared to the GT4 picture would you have said the pictures are to small?

 

[SlipZtrEm]

It's going to be a strange argument because of Forza's entire picture system.

What will be interesting is if GT5 is outputting frankly silly resolution sizes (18MP)... wait then for the real comparison between Standards and Premiums.

Dev does make a completely valid point though; smaller sizes minimize flaws. This is just as true for that FM3 Zonda image as it is for the GT4 Macca. And regardless of which image overall is "better", the quality of the Zonda's model is superior. It's a shame that FM3's main weaknesses are questionable headlights and an overall hit-and-miss reflection/lighting engine.

 

[Tenacious D]

That Zonda R pic does look fantastic. In fact, I'm extremely jealous of TVR&Ffan and his $200 Black Diamond capture card. His Forza 3 images are unsurpassed.

But that's the real problem with F3 and Microsoft's utterly insane method of photo "sharing," and I use the term loosely. You have a ridiculous process involved in collecting pics, and if you have over 120 or so on your 360, you'll have to fight the file sorting bog issue as the system struggles to sort through the images you took. Then, pick up to 18 max, delete any at the Forzamotorsports site, and load them up. Then gag at the compression artifacts and color degradation, as well as the image resolution reduction. A once pretty and possibly lifelike image is now half ruined, and I'm unfortunately not enough of a CG tech to properly fix what MS broke, so my pics look rather sad compared to what are sitting in my now chuggy 360 Leet hard drive.

This process can literally take several hours just to get to this point, and no telling how much time to correct them. Now, if you have a good capture card, this makes it a breeze, but I can't see MS including capture cards in Forza 4, or a Forza 3 Ultimate Platinum Edition.

Seeing my images makes me want to have nothing to do with Forza ever again, and MS's preposterous user torture. I took literally 2000 plus GT4 images and saved them to my PC in a week's time. The same ordeal would have taken months in F3, and I'm afraid to guess how many!

What's more, there will be no image degradation in GT5. The lighting and graphics engine will be pristine and lifelike, with no need to mess with camera filters to get a good hue in your images. The backgrounds will be stunning. And if we get more than 16 Standard car races in GT5, the prospect of panoramic shots with a true full field of cars has me anxious to have the game in my drive right NOW! I might not touch up a thing, which I'm sure will give SlipZtrEm a lot to comment about.

Honestly, the quality of images in my GT4 portfolio has me stunned and overjoyed, and I can hardly wait to get into that huge Standard car list and start snapping pics like a well paid paperatzi. And then... the Premiums... drool...

By the way, my images are 800 pixels wide, and I sized them as such to keep Scaff from leaning on me about large images. I'd certainly post larger, but a few members made a fuss about it, and we have to play nice with all parties.

 

[JDMKING13]

That Zonda R pic does look fantastic. In fact, I'm extremely jealous of TVR&Ffan and his $200 Black Diamond capture card. His Forza 3 images are unsurpassed.

Damn his pictures are amazing, Im glad you explained how he gets it like that, because I tried so hard to get my pics to look that good All im trying to say is all the pictures i normally see on a forum and rate are no bigger than the pictures we have posted up.

It's going to be a strange argument because of Forza's entire picture system.

What will be interesting is if GT5 is outputting frankly silly resolution sizes (18MP)... wait then for the real comparison between Standards and Premiums.

Dev does make a completely valid point though; smaller sizes minimize flaws. This is just as true for that FM3 Zonda image as it is for the GT4 Macca. And regardless of which image overall is "better", the quality of the Zonda's model is superior. It's a shame that FM3's main weaknesses are questionable headlights and an overall hit-and-miss reflection/lighting engine.

What about the 350Z or is that not a good enough picture to judge. Im not trying to be a smart guy. 👍

 

[Tenacious D]

The 350Z I race modded in Forza looks way better on the 360, in fact if I recall, it looks almost real. You do have to fuss with Forza photoshoots almost as much as you do in GT4 because the graphics engine is good, but could stand some improvement. Backgrounds and cars both need a certain angle and lighting to look ideal.

But after being mangled by MS's file handling disaster, and my poor attempts to fix it, now the image looks garish. The grass is neon green. The cone is day-glo orange. The track looks kind of like it was used for chalk art. The shadow of the car on the silver parts has a violet hue to them I can't get rid of without messing up something else. The bumper stripes look painted on, but then they do in the original pic too, which is a common problem with Forza's backgrounds. Sometimes they just don't look right. You also have to be very careful how you include shots of the cars other than your own, because the detail is drastically reduced, along with the poly count. In fact, they usually look worse than GT4 cars.

So unfortunately, the Forza images I took could be better. If GT5 doesn't have a decent Race Mod system or a Livery Editor to speak of, at some point I'll go back to Forza because making race cars is the best part about that game, and I'll be forced to plunk down for a capture card to get proper images of them. So, if the Race Modding in GT5 is lame, the making up race cars and tuners I'll do in Forza 3. Racing and whipping up tuners, I'll do in GT5.

 

[chromatic9]

But that's the real problem with F3 and Microsoft's utterly insane method of photo "sharing," and I use the term loosely. You have a ridiculous process involved in collecting pics, and if you have over 120 or so on your 360, you'll have to fight the file sorting bog issue as the system struggles to sort through the images you took.

The file bogging issue has improved somewhat on the number of photos. Probably not enough to bring you back. It seems manageable at 300 images so far.

 

[eSZee]

Sigh. Can we please stop littering this thread with pointless pictures?

 

[Akira AC]

I would want to compare those at a more "normal use" size.

I understand the forum has limitations on what's acceptable and most of us have computer monitors smaller than our TVs, but honestly, a LOT looks good when it's small enough. Shrink it down to 320x240 and you might have problems picking Premium Gt5 cars from Gt4 cars IN Gt4.

Essentially showing small versions on a computer monitor isn't really the best test of quality when in reality most of us will be playing them on much larger screens even when accounting for seating distance.

Agree,it also depends on your personal monitor output,in my case I sometimes write here from PS3(connected to a bravia lcd)and some images look stunning,from FM3 and GT5 premiums,and since we already have 18 MP images it depends more on the monitor output,besides of that, take on count that the real video output of the game will be to TV,in HDMI(maybe in some cases with S video but I don't think so)it will not be on computer screen(unless you use you TV with a graphics card to your pc)and the video output of the PS3 itself is also different from the pc.

We haven't seen yet a gameplay video or a decent video(apart from the 1.14 video released in 480p)of the standards so we simply don't know how the updated models for new engine and more polygons will looks like.

On an aside note I have to say that no so much time ago comparatives between Forza 2 and GT4 were made and the conclusions was that GT4 models were more detailed(trims and stuff),but the Forza models had a greater amount of polygons count,maybe the same thing will happen once again,and besides I will take out the DLC because the Will start to get more detailed to try to reach the GT5 prologue models,and these models were separately model,which seems to be different from Forza 3 stock models that are clearly less detailed than some of the newer DLC cars(obviously)

 

[Tenacious D]

Sigh. Can we please stop littering this thread with pointless pictures?

Oh, no no no, I like these pointless pictures. Especially when they hint at how much better GT5 is going to be for us shutter bugs. SlipZtrEm can hold back screams of pain and try to get us to agree that these are just crimes against nature and taste and stuff, but some of us see something a little deeper.

I know that he and certain others have a point about these being a shade or two poorer than we'll get with the Premium cars. But when they start saying that, well honestly, these cars really have no business being in GT5 when you get down to it because they're just one step up from bricks, I have to raise an eyebrow in objection. Especially when these very cars are the point of contention.

It's images like these that make us say, hold on now, these are hardly bricks. Plus, rendered in the GT5 engine, you don't know how much better they're going to look. Images like these speak directly to the point of the thread, and are actually the most appropriate images to find here.

The file bogging issue has improved somewhat on the number of photos. Probably not enough to bring you back. It seems manageable at 300 images so far.

Well, I believe my Live Gold has expired, but when GT5 rolls around and if my crucially important Race Mod and Livery Editor are absent, or if I get the bug over my vacation, I could pick up a discount one year Gold card and play around with it some more. But I'd need a day or more of "throw away" time.

 

[Tornado]

I feel a compulsive need to point out that you can see how terrible some of the GT4 textures were even in that partial size zoom of the 350z. I've never thought that the GT4 models were bad. Quite the contrary: PD's attention to detail in the models makes many of them rather comparable (if not on a technical level than at least in spirit) to games from this generation. But on an awful lot of the cars the textures were abhorrent, and it didn't usually matter whether or not it was the showroom/Photomode model or the race model.

And while I understand that they may have already accounted for that with the "higher than GT4 quality" versions of the cars, that doesn't really apply for the cars from GT3 (as the C5R from the Standard cars trailer showed). And the Standard cars trailer didn't feature any of the more major problem cars from GT4, either.

 

[eSZee]

Oh, no no no, I like these pointless pictures. Especially when they hint at how much better GT5 is going to be for us shutter bugs.

These are pictures of GT4 and FM3 cars. Go post them in their respective forums and topics. That way you can still get all giddy at what the future might hold, and those of us who would rather not do that, don't have to scroll through picture after picture of what technically is off-topic material.

 

[Tenacious D]

Here is a close up I did of the Mitsubishi Evo IV rally car, showing the detail in the decal textures. Frankly, this is pretty close to what you find in Forza 3, and I'm talking about the decals, not the polygons and oddly dithered lighting. And keep in mind that skinning a car is a much less time consuming job than modeling one, so who's to say how the final Standard cars are going to look.

By the way, this isn't off topic material.

At some point, you have to include images if you're going to discuss the Standard cars, because otherwise all you have is a back n forth of

"The Standard cars look awful."

"No they don't."

"Yes they do."

"No, they don't!"

"Yes, they DO!"

"NO THEY DON'T!"

 

[kingcars]

GT4s models were absolutely stunning for their time. And even by today's standards, the accuracy of the models is still very very good, often better than the much higher polygon cars of current games. However, I still get a chuckle every time someone posts a Forza 3 picture next to a GT4 or GT5 standard car picture and then they say how the two are close. They're clearly not, from a car modeling stand point. GT's lighting engines have always been top notch and that is what gives most of GT4 the photorealistic look. Forza 3's models are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more detailed (not to be confused with accuracy) but the lighting engine is laughable in comparison, which results in the cars' plastic look. GT5 will continue to lead the way in photorealistic graphics, and the standard cars will definitely look better than in GT4 due to the more advanced, higher resolution graphics engine. But that's the extent of it...they'll still look last-generation from a modeling standpoint. I'm still hoping that the pollution between car tiers will be kept to a minimum; as many have said, the game would have been better with a single tier. It will look funky at best with two completely different levels of car models onscreen together.

 

[eSZee]

By the way, this isn't off topic material.

At some point, you have to include images if you're going to discuss the Standard cars, because otherwise all you have is a back n forth of

How is this on topic? You're posting pictures from games other than GT5. How does comparing GT4 with Forza3 make it on topic? All you still have is back and forth, just with pictures.

 

[Dravonic]

How is this on topic? You're posting pictures from games other than GT5. How does comparing GT4 with Forza3 make it on topic? All you still have is back and forth, just with pictures.

It is on topic if you are debating if standard cars are this-gen worthy.

On that note, a lot of people around here will be surprised when they see standards and premiums together in their 1080p TVs. Even more so if PD allows standards to be photographed at 18M pixels.

 

[KilzoneStrife]

I have Forza 2,played Forza1 and 3.truth be told,its the actual line innacuracies that are shocking.some cars like the R32,R33 Skylines are way wrong in Forza.it is because they were made in Forza1 and carried over twice to Forza3.For me,I prefer the GT4 models,the poly count is lower,textures are sometimes bad but the dimensions of the car are spot on.I drive an E36 M3,the square-ness of it in Forza3,2 is terrible! Look at the bonnet,all along through to the fenders.it doesnt look like that at all.its the same with many of the Forza models.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Giant, same-again rant about the file-sharing system in place for FM3, which, while true, has absolutely nothing to do with the topic

What's more, there will be no image degradation in GT5. The lighting and graphics engine will be pristine and lifelike, with no need to mess with camera filters to get a good hue in your images. The backgrounds will be stunning. And if we get more than 16 Standard car races in GT5, the prospect of panoramic shots with a true full field of cars has me anxious to have the game in my drive right NOW! I might not touch up a thing, which I'm sure will give SlipZtrEm a lot to comment about.

Strictly speaking, we don't know if there won't be degradation. We assume PD will keep the system in place from GT4 for Photomode, but who knows for sure? I'm sure if you keep shrinking images down and doing some sloppy cropping, anything can look good enough.

Honestly, the quality of images in my GT4 portfolio has me stunned and overjoyed, and I can hardly wait to get into that huge Standard car list and start snapping pics like a well paid paperatzi. And then... the Premiums... drool...

This isn't your gallery, stop treating it as such.

By the way, my images are 800 pixels wide, and I sized them as such to keep Scaff from leaning on me about large images. I'd certainly post larger, but a few members made a fuss about it, and we have to play nice with all parties.

I won't argue they're the right size for forums, but you can easily link to original size images.

What about the 350Z or is that not a good enough picture to judge. Im not trying to be a smart guy. 👍

I was more impressed with the Zonda, and like TD mentioned, it's a more accurate representation of what FM3 is giving, bypassing T10's silly forced-upload-to-ruin-quality business. The slight purple tinge is actually more realistic though, with the Z; at least, that looks very much like one of the silver/grays normally available on a 350Z, and in sunlight on the real car, the paint will reflect some colours more noticeably than others. That bit of purple, and the small bursts of white in the checks above the rear wheels shows a bit better lighting than what I usually expect from the game.

Oh, no no no, I like these pointless pictures. Especially when they hint at how much better GT5 is going to be for us shutter bugs. SlipZtrEm can hold back screams of pain and try to get us to agree that these are just crimes against nature and taste and stuff, but some of us see something a little deeper.

(citation needed)

Again, I'm sure you're enjoying any excuse to use this thread as your personal gallery, but instead of the constant self-gratification in here, put it where it belongs. Yes, I use Photoshop over in the galleries section, to better represent the ideal image in my head using the GT4 base. I've spent enough time with the Photomode stuff for the past years that no, I don't believe you've suddenly stumbled upon a secret formula of taking better pics, some "deeper image". You're seeing what you want to see, and that's fine; we all have our strengths. I'll keep to Photoshop and being able to pick out the littler details. You can stick to painting creepy portraits of game producers. Deal?

But when they start saying that, well honestly, these cars really have no business being in GT5 when you get down to it because they're just one step up from bricks, I have to raise an eyebrow in objection.

(citation needed)

Plus, rendered in the GT5 engine, you don't know how much better they're going to look.

I don't? Odd, PD released a video for that very reason...

On that note, a lot of people around here will be surprised when they see standards and premiums together in their 1080p TVs. Even more so if PD allows standards to be photographed at 18M pixels.

Ding ding ding!