Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[SlipZtrEm]

Good and valid points, don't get anyone on here wrong.. EVERYONE wants to see all cars with cockpit views and everyone does feel the same way. It's just you get certain people on here that choose to bypass everything else the game has to offer just to complain about a view that is relatively new to the series... but yet 200+ cars will have it..

Newness to the series doesn't make a feature less important.

As was said earlier it was about time management, I have alot of respect for Kaz but he can't be absolved from criticism just becasue he appears to care or becasue the game will have other features,
I remember a long time ago him saying how long it took to make a car from scratch, it was a substantial amount of time, which ment he knew how long it was going to take to do so many cars and he just continued ahead leaving himself with arguably no option but to pursue with this 2 layered system(or I remember somone saying something about standard premium cars recently).

If the GT4 cars were originally designed to a much higher standard and downgraded for that game, and now the original high-spec models are being used then surely that could have given them the oppurtunity to create at least basic dashboards, you can see inside the cars through the tinted windows so theres clearly something there, surely they could have used that to give us something.

Everyone is happy theres so many cars, its a tremendous feat, saying a game has 1000+ cars is quite the selling feature, but it wouldn't be quite as good if it said well actually 80% of the cars are only kinda new and not nearly as detailed as the other 20%, and the majority you have already seen in GT4.

I just want to say that this IS a day 1 purchase for me and it will consume many, many hours of my life. I just don't get this attitude of 'oh its confirmed out of the game now, so lets treat it as a minor occlusion and continue to praise Kaz as if hes done nothing wrong',
If any other racing game gave you 500 cars and only 250 of them had cockpits, we would never hear the end of how much they suck becasue of it regardless of their other features.

Im sure all most all the people who are annoyed including myself just wanted consistency across all cars, not to have to consider what car we buy becasue it may not look as good, may not have a cockpit or may not take the same damage.
It should never have been a problem if Kaz had modeled all interiors to an acceptable level and then when all cars were done, then start to work on the cars that HE wanted to look especially good becasue they were HIS preferred cars.

👍 That's what I've always been on about; consistency among all cars. This confirmation of a lack of cockpits in 80% of the game just widens the gap between the two tiers.

The same thing I was thinking before. They may look far better than any other current gen game but they are still current gen and they will still look outdated when the next generation arrives.

I seriously hope PD isn't thinking about using the very same models in the PS4 without updating them first because if they do, we will have the same "standard vs premium" fiasco. I think most will agree that GT5 should be the first and last game to ever feature this distinction.

Eh... maybe. I like to think that by dint of how Premiums are designed now (as realistic, multi-piece models) they will stand up to time a bit better than GT4's. GT4 models have an inherent limit to them, especially with damage in the game, since they can't have a loose bumper, or hood, or things like that. You could throw more polygons at them, and higher textures, but their basic makeup would always be a limiting factor. With cars like the Miura, I imagine if further development is needed around the time of PS4's release, like fully modeled suspension and engines, and things like that, it could be adapted to the current model instead of starting from scratch.

Again, all assumptions, but going by my (admittedly) limited knowledge of modeling, it makes sense.

I'm very disappointed about not having cockpit views in 4/5th of the cars. What this means is that the first 3 license levels will be spent driving in the chase view (not my cup-o-tea).

Fixed :-|

To the people who keep pointing out that 1000 cars is unheard of in racing games... this is true, but keep in mind some Standard cars are as old as GT3. If all the racing games out there that have had consistent titles for the past 10 years pooled all their previous titles' cars into their current game, the gap would be much smaller. A good example would be FM3; if they ported over every FM1 and FM2 model, I'm pretty sure they still wouldn't top 1000, but they'd be close, and with less obvious number padding (the insane amount of R32/R33/R34 Skylines in GT, for example).

 

[Griffith500]

I may be being selfish or short-sighted, but I'm considering GT5, I dont want to think about the next itteration in the franchise or the version after that becasue I'm not prpared to wait a decade or so for what will be a game in preparation for the next installment after that,
I don't buy the bigger picture becasue I want to play a game that has been built for itself, not for another couple of games down the line.
You can't future-proof things as fickle as games for a time-period as relatively short as 5 years, things are moving too fast in the industry for that.

Again selfish hat on, but I want the game to be made for me, not the generation of gamers after or the generation after that, and as hard as it is to believe, in 5 years as someone said the current models wont hold up to what will be capable then,

And I'm not privy to PD's modeling/imaging tecniques so take what I said for the entire wheel, or those engine bays

I don't think we'll be waiting five years for GT6. The thing is, Kaz doesn't necessarily think in terms of installments, outside of collecting features and assets that are "ready" every now and then and releasing them as a package.

He sees his game as a continually evolving thing that is gradually (apparently at 85-90% right now) approaching his vision of what it should be, in ideality.

I know people like to have a whinge sometimes, I do too, but really, it is just a game!

 

[Devedander]

Never mind, eh? Chin-up, it could be worse: there could be no cockpit view at all! Or we could only be getting 200 ish cars, like GT3...

Sadly, I have never been on to subscribe to the rationlization method of "it could be worse so this isn't bad" because that means there is only one truly bad scenario... and that is the one in which nothing could actually be any worse...

 

[Killinator]

I don't think we'll be waiting five years for GT6. The thing is, Kaz doesn't necessarily think in terms of installments, outside of collecting features and assets that are "ready" every now and then and releasing them as a package.

He sees his game as a continually evolving thing that is gradually (apparently at 85-90% right now) approaching his vision of what it should be, in ideality.

I know people like to have a whinge sometimes, I do too, but really, it is just a game!

I see what you mean, but Kaz needs to realise that most people dont see a game release the way he does,
People dont expect to see games that appear to be half finished(I know GT5 isn't only half finished) but when you don't include 80% of cars cockpits and still the majority of those 80% are recalls from GT4 then it has that unfinished feel to it.

Remember these GT4 models were supposedly built tohigher spec for future proof, and well we see how thats gone,

And I don't believe I'm whinging, just detailing my bit of dissappointment in a barrage of good news.

 

[Griffith500]

Sadly, I have never been on to subscribe to the rationlization method of "it could be worse so this isn't bad" because that means there is only one truly bad scenario... and that is the one in which nothing could actually be any worse...

I assume you mean death. I don't suppose it's so bad for the dead person; it's your survivors you want to pity
But yes. 200 cars with cockpits isn't bad; it could be worse, you could be dead... (not that I want to jinx you )

Anyway, perspective is everything and denying yourself that is a bit odd, in my opinion.

How about this: it could be better, we could be getting every single car made ever, in full 0.001 mm, laser scanned accuracy running in a ray-traced renderer, with full haptic feedback and holographic imaging.

Screw GT5, I want that.

I see what you mean, but Kaz needs to realise that most people dont see a game release the way he does,
People dont expect to see games that appear to be half finished(I know GT5 isn't only half finished) but when you don't include 80% of cars cockpits and still the majority of those 80% are recalls from GT4 then it has that unfinished feel to it.

Remember these GT4 models were supposedly built tohigher spec for future proof, and well we see how thats gone,

And I don't believe I'm whinging, just detailing my bit of dissappointment in a barrage of good news.

You're whinging but not in a bad way...

Anyway. I don't think Kaz is unaware that his methods are unorthodox. Clearly, somebody at Sony doesn't think he needs to change his attitude, and it's them he's making money for (arguably the most important factor) so I assume that it's all fine.

GT4's cars have been future proofed; they're appearing in GT5
We should have seen it coming...

 

[CTznOfTime]

I'm very disappointed about not having cockpit views in 1/5th of the cars. What this means is that the first 3 license levels will be spent driving in the chase view (not my cup-o-tea).

I'm sure the premium cars look great. But, I'd would rather have had less detail in all the cockpits than to have some with and most without a cockpit view. I don't buy this game for the love of highly detailed cars. I buy it because I like racing.

Put a motor under the hood, wheels at the corners, and give me a likeness of a cockpit view and I'm happy. I appreciate KY's high standards. I just want to race though.

why 1/5th of the cars???

I thought all the Standard cars do not have Cockpit view... which would make it 800 out of 1000 cars... (8 cars out of 10 will NOT have cockpit view)

Unless i misunderstood or have missed something...


As for me, i am a little bit different than you...

I do love racing... and that's why i choose GT games, because their physics is (feels) the most closest to reality (when compared to other console games)
AND on top of that, GT graphics has always been the top for me.

This whole package is really what makes me overlook everything else, and being limited on time, i cannot afford to have more than one games to play with... so i choose GT.
(so i will admit it, i buy this game first for the race, and in very close second for the graphics which is mind blowing!)

As for the "no cockpit camera for the standard cars!!"


Oh well, BAH! It wont hit me as hard as others, since i exclusively play with the Chase Cam most of the time anyways...

The way i see it is:
I'll get to play with 800+ cars with my 6Axis
and 200+ cars with my DFGT cockpit set up with the cockpit view...

Which is representative of my time shared between the two set up.
I am most of the time in my room playing GT5 with the Pad,
and 20% of the rest of my time playing games, i go downstairs in the living room where my cockpit is...

Works for me!
👍

 

[yellowclone]

I do? Awesome! Didn't even try to.

EDIT: Listen, you got it all wrong so calm down. Just because i wrote "Jesus ******* Christ" you have no reason to go mad and threaten me, because it's not exactly directed at you, is it?.

I am calmed down, as you can see from my previous post, as I said that I have dropped the subject. I just get a little red faced when I hear that expression, nothing against you, just the expression, and the fact that you put whatever word most would associate with *******. I don't like when people say the gd word either.

Back on topic again. I see that you, like me, am into muscle cars, so when GT5 comes out, and someone creates a drag strip, I hope I am invited online. I'll be "that" Mopar guy.

 

[BlacqueJacques]

I think he meant only 1/5 of cars will have cockpit view....

 

[Strittan]

He sees his game as a continually evolving thing that is gradually (apparently at 85-90% right now) approaching his vision of what it should be, in ideality.

Then why not do this through DLC instead of working on GT6? Look at iRacing. It's getting new cars and tracks all the time and the game is two years old.

Everything can be updated through DLC, from physics to sounds, and of course also track and car packs can be released. I don't see the catch with DLC really.

 

[Griffith500]

Then why not do this through DLC instead of working on GT6? Look at iRacing. It's getting new cars and tracks all the time and the game is two years old.

Everything can be updated through DLC, from physics to sounds, and of course also track and car packs can be released. I don't see the catch with DLC really.

They are working on GT6 because they are working on Gran Turismo. Like I said, they all beaver away on little projects like weather (since before GT3) and damage (since GT2) only to release these components into an installment of the retail series once they're "acceptable".

Technically, they had been working on GT4 since 1995 or so.
iRacing was meant to be updated like this from the start. It's not a case of it being two years old, since a lot of it has been continually updated, as you said (and not just content, the platform, too.) It's not really a "game", either, arguably... it represents David Kaemmer's (and that guy with the money) vision for online racing / training assistance.

The problem with DLC is that it's not on your game disc. So it's not future proof; what if you want to re-install the game, but the content servers are no longer running, so you can't get the "full" experience? There's no knowing what will happen in the future.

That said, I'm not averse to it either. And anyway, there's always the underground / emulation scene if things get too bad

 

[Tornado]

DLC is only rented from the publisher. I'd rather have another game than a bunch of stuff that I won't be able to use in 5 years, particularly when the end result would probably be cheaper that way.




In regards to "lol PS4 models," one thing that is different between the Premiums and Standards is that the way they are modeled actually does allow a pretty good degree of future proofing, depending on how much detailing was done in the base parts themselves. Reusing GT5 models on the PS4 could work a lot better than reusing the GT4 models on the PS3 did.

Look at it like this: If each Premium was modeled on a part by part basis, then PD could have theoretically put so much work into the modeling that each individual part of each car could be so detailed that they had to scale them back.

 

[Piotrov]

I think DLC's are limited in some ways. You couldent implement rain via DLC as that would change the phisycs of car handling.
For small stuff DLC is really great, like cars and tracks.. But something that requires the physics implementation wouldent really work to great. Thus its probably easyer and better to just start again (as in GT6)
And we dont really know what KY's vision is for the GT franchise.. He could still be far off it.

I believe that the track editor and such were implemented as per sony rather then KY's wishes to go with sonys "play, creat, share" (or something along those lines) campaign.

 

[CTznOfTime]

I assume you mean death. I don't suppose it's so bad for the dead person; it's your survivors you want to pity
But yes. 200 cars with cockpits isn't bad; it could be worse, you could be dead... (not that I want to jinx you )

Anyway, perspective is everything and denying yourself that is a bit odd, in my opinion.

How about this: it could be better, we could be getting every single car made ever, in full 0.001 mm, laser scanned accuracy running in a ray-traced renderer, with full haptic feedback and holographic imaging.

Screw GT5, I want that.


You're whinging but not in a bad way...

Anyway. I don't think Kaz is unaware that his methods are unorthodox. Clearly, somebody at Sony doesn't think he needs to change his attitude, and it's them he's making money for (arguably the most important factor) so I assume that it's all fine.

GT4's cars have been future proofed; they're appearing in GT5
We should have seen it coming...

UNLIKE others, i totally agree with you ... because maybe i am an optimistic person by nature... it helps to be so, makes your life easier

I see what you mean, but Kaz needs to realise that most people dont see a game release the way he does,
People dont expect to see games that appear to be half finished(I know GT5 isn't only half finished) but when you don't include 80% of cars cockpits and still the majority of those 80% are recalls from GT4 then it has that unfinished feel to it.

Remember these GT4 models were supposedly built tohigher spec for future proof, and well we see how thats gone,

And I don't believe I'm whinging, just detailing my bit of dissappointment in a barrage of good news.

Maybe the number of people like you seeing the game as half finished is really not as much as you think...

Considerer this... if the general population is not so much into video games, or into cars, or even both combined, and yet they need to buy a car game for whatever reason (whether for themselves or as a gift), pretty much all their are going to hear from this game is that: it is the best out there...

Unlike you or me, they will not dig any deeper than their pockets, they will not even see the difference between a Standard cars and Premium cars, they probably wont realize there is a two-tier car design... and really that's what matter because it saves time! Otherwise it would have taken Kaz PD another 2 years even (if the bump their crew to 400 designers)

This is the best they could have done in the given time,
this is the compromise and sacrifice he has choosen...
and it will be a finished product by Nov 2.
Kaz has been successful at making the difference between Std and Prem cars as unnoticeable by a casual gamer... that's what matter for now... and even if they do, it's not that terrible... The lack of Cockpit is really the bummer... but cant do much at this point... will it drive sales down just because of that??? somehow i dont thing so...
and it would be stupid of anyone to just miss out on everything just because there is no Cockpit... didnt we survive GT4 without Cockpit? What's a few more years waiting for it...

For me, i just cant stand the half finished cockpit in Forza 3... that's even worse i think... That's half finished work... because at least Kaz, it doing it or not.

and like the man said... GT6 (or whatever name is after GT5) will come out much faster... (MARK MY WORDS: GT5 EPILOGUE WILL BE OUT IN TWO YEARS! DEC 2012 )

GT6 being in the next generation console

 

[Dravonic]

Eh... maybe. I like to think that by dint of how Premiums are designed now (as realistic, multi-piece models) they will stand up to time a bit better than GT4's. GT4 models have an inherent limit to them, especially with damage in the game, since they can't have a loose bumper, or hood, or things like that. You could throw more polygons at them, and higher textures, but their basic makeup would always be a limiting factor. With cars like the Miura, I imagine if further development is needed around the time of PS4's release, like fully modeled suspension and engines, and things like that, it could be adapted to the current model instead of starting from scratch.

Again, all assumptions, but going by my (admittedly) limited knowledge of modeling, it makes sense.

And that's what I mean by updating. It's one thing for them to just port the models like they did with the standards, it's another to update these models before porting them.

They will work quite well in the next generation if PD already modeled them with more details but had to downgrade them for GT5. Or if they are planning to update them to use in the next gen. But if they just do what they did with the GT5 standards... well, we already know what will happen.

 

[Killinator]

You're whinging but not in a bad way...

Anyway. I don't think Kaz is unaware that his methods are unorthodox. Clearly, somebody at Sony doesn't think he needs to change his attitude, and it's them he's making money for (arguably the most important factor) so I assume that it's all fine.

GT4's cars have been future proofed; they're appearing in GT5
We should have seen it coming...

I think your being overly defensive, but not in a bad way

I think even sony have at times grown impatient with Kaz though, look at GTPSP.
I wouldn,t mind soooo much if Kaz had just laid things out from the get go, if he had said 'all cars will not have cockpits unlike GT5P, and either the game will take a decade to finish or you can have some really good looking cars with all the bells and whistles and alot more cars that will look good but wont be near as detailed or have all the features'

Maybe we should have seen it coming but Kaz certainly didnt give us much insight until he really had to, why does the man have to be so obscure about everything!?!

 

[CTznOfTime]

Because he wasn't so sure himself about how things would turn out...

... and also because he had to protect his work from the competition...

 

[Strittan]

In regards to "lol PS4 models," one thing that is different between the Premiums and Standards is that the way they are modeled actually does allow a pretty good degree of future proofing, depending on how much detailing was done in the base parts themselves. Reusing GT5 models on the PS4 could work a lot better than reusing the GT4 models on the PS3 did.

Look at it like this: If each Premium was modeled on a part by part basis, then PD could have theoretically put so much work into the modeling that each individual part of each car could be so detailed that they had to scale them back.

This I believe very much. I really think that the Premium models are so very well detailed and modeled that they can easily be used on the PS4. I can't see how they can be more detailed than this, I really can't.

Also, if they keep the cars like this for the next generation, they'll be able to spend a lot more time on refining weather effects and time changes, increasing number of cars on track from 16 to 32 or even more.

 

[Killinator]

UNLIKE others, i totally agree with you ... because maybe i am an optimistic person by nature... it helps to be so, makes your life easier






Maybe the number of people like you seeing the game as half finished is really not as much as you think...

Considerer this... if the general population is not so much into video games, or into cars, or even both combined, and yet they need to buy a car game for whatever reason (whether for themselves or as a gift), pretty much all their are going to hear from this game is that: it is the best out there...

Unlike you or me, they will not dig any deeper than their pockets, they will not even see the difference between a Standard cars and Premium cars, they probably wont realize there is a two-tier car design... and really that's what matter because it saves time! Otherwise it would have taken Kaz PD another 2 years even (if the bump their crew to 400 designers)

This is the best they could have done in the given time,
this is the compromise and sacrifice he has choosen...
and it will be a finished product by Nov 2.
Kaz has been successful at making the difference between Std and Prem cars as unnoticeable by a casual gamer... that's what matter for now... and even if they do, it's not that terrible... The lack of Cockpit is really the bummer... but cant do much at this point... will it drive sales down just because of that??? somehow i dont thing so...
and it would be stupid of anyone to just miss out on everything just because there is no Cockpit... didnt we survive GT4 without Cockpit? What's a few more years waiting for it...

For me, i just cant stand the half finished cockpit in Forza 3... that's even worse i think... That's half finished work... because at least Kaz, it doing it or not.

and like the man said... GT6 (or whatever name is after GT5) will come out much faster... (MARK MY WORDS: GT5 EPILOGUE WILL BE OUT IN TWO YEARS! DEC 2012 )

GT6 being in the next generation console

Damn this thread is moving too bloody fast,

I can only go on the general concensous(sp?) on sites like this as the layman is mostly unaware of these developments coming out,
And theres quite a large amount of people here that a crest fallen by the occlusion of cocpits in 80% of cars,
These people, although dissappointed, will still buy the game, and GT6, GT7 and GT8 will all have dissappointing features(or lack thereof).
Ive waited this long saying GT6 will be out in 2 years dosn't come across as a particularly satisfying alternative

 

[Vincent Viceroy]

Why are the 'Standard' car windows in GT5 completely blacked out?

Compared to GT4.

This looks much more natural.

 

[Killinator]

Because he wasn't so sure himself about how things would turn out...

... and also because he had to protect his work from the competition...

Then he should have said as such, but he did know about Standard/Premiums given he knew how long it took to build each new car,
Would it have been so hard to just say outright from the start that this was going to happen?
I wouldn't think so.

 

[Killinator]

This looks much more natural.

I said that earlier, Theres clearly something inside, use it to give us the PSP style cockpit if thats all you can do but please give us some kind of dash view

 

[Daraman]

I'm still confused about the quality of "standard" cars. They're cars from all previous GT games, but they were made with the PS3 engine, right?

 

[Strittan]

I'm still confused about the quality of "standard" cars. They're cars from all previous GT games, but they were made with the PS3 engine, right?

No...

They're cars from GT4 made with the PS2 engine, but updated with new reflections.

 

[Peter]

No...

They're cars from GT4 made with the PS2 engine, but updated with new reflections.

No, they're not. Of course they were made from GT4, but they must have been improved in polygons from then. Not just fancy reflections.



Well, this is bad news, indeed. But, it won't stop us from buying GT5 and playing it, will it? Look to the future. Perhaps not DLC, as Kaz has already said DLC is not on his to do list, but GT6 will be among us in at least 2 years from now.

 

[Tagger]

I think he meant only 1/5 of cars will have cockpit view....

Yup. My fingers weren't operating when I ran the original computation lol. Never trust the first report they say.

 

[FlareKR]

I still think PD should either update the standard cars later, or leave theme out of the game and put them in a DLC. It's inconsistent, and makes the PD look like they're saying "Well sure I know there is a lot of garbage and 800 pieces of 🤬 floating about but HEY look, 200 things of GOLD!"
What's still ticking me off is that a Fiat 500, a little load of heap which I pass by at the bike shop in my way to grandma's house in Little Havana is premium, but a 1953 Corvette from GT4, because it's from GT4 makes it not premium? That's hypocrisy, period!

 

[G.T.Ace]

No, they're not. Of course they were made from GT4, but they must have been improved in polygons from then. Not just fancy reflections.

Yes, they are.

 

[Strittan]

What's still ticking me off is that a Fiat 500, a little load of heap which I pass by at the bike shop in my way to grandma's house in Little Havana is premium, but a 1953 Corvette from GT4, because it's from GT4 makes it not premium? That's hypocrisy, period!

You just have to face the fact that not everyone hate the 500 as much as you do. I think it's kind of cool, and PD have to make as many as possible happy. What would it look like if all the premiums were sports cars? I'd hate that.

 

[CTznOfTime]

I still think PD should either update the standard cars later, or leave theme out of the game and put them in a DLC. It's inconsistent, and makes the PD look like they're saying "Well sure I know there is a lot of garbage and 800 pieces of 🤬 floating about but HEY look, 200 things of GOLD!"
What's still ticking me off is that a Fiat 500, a little load of heap which I pass by at the bike shop in my way to grandma's house in Little Havana is premium, but a 1953 Corvette from GT4, because it's from GT4 makes it not premium? That's hypocrisy, period!

Hardly Garbage to my eyes...

... i find those standard cars beautiful to look at... and the difference is not so much as the eye sore you describe.

This beat what we have in other games i think...


I just cant believe how some of you can make it sound like we have Elle MacPherson on one end (Premium) and the Sorceress (Standard) in the Snow White ....

 

[Killinator]

You just have to face the fact that not everyone hate the 500 as much as you do. I think it's kind of cool, and PD have to make as many as possible happy. What would it look like if all the premiums were sports cars? I'd hate that.

Thats a fair point, but 2 Fiat 500's, and does anyone think the Prius is cool?