Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[Devedander]

But at what point, once they've said they can't do something, do you let it go? Acceptance seems to impossible with some of you.

I'm not defending those who want to call Kaz a god, but don't be the equivalent negative.

How many threads do you see me creating? I am not bringing the stuff up, I am mostly responding. It's not like I haven't accepted what's coming down the pipe, but as long as some people keep talking about it, I am likely to be one of them. Whether you like the position I represent when doing so is completely a seperate issue.

Hmm, yet you don't mention any of the game that create the current industry standard you've come to expect. Shift is a great example. It's got the livery editor, Porsches, Damage and all, but, it feels like driving on marshmallows. There's no point in playing a car game that doesn't feel like driving a car.

Edit: Obviously EVERYTHING isn't their priority. If it's a priority, you make sure it's part of the final product.

The list was obviously incomplete and was in response to why I am not out there playing Forza instead of being on the forums.

Context.

 

[Pierced Lead]

Forza fans were once GT fans. Why is that something that is always ignored by people when people still follow GT like its some sort of religion?

I can't comment on the physics side as I haven't played this gen of GT, but I don't sit there thinking Forza's physics are in any way wrong because I've done a lot of fast driving and know how cars react. Forza has it pretty spot on for a console sim played with a pad.

I do know that if I get a PS3 to play GT5, that even if it does feel better, I won't be able to paint a car as a change of pace and put my creativity on the game and that counts for a lot more.

Narrow-mindedness is a bitch.

Couldn't people be fans of both games at the same time?
What if a guy was introduced to Forza by a friend or some other source and he had previously never heard of GT nor was introduced to the game as the GT of Xbox?

GT is in danger of becoming an anachronism and a lot of people are too blinded by fanboyism to notice it. I'm an Apple user, I should dislike MS as a matter of principle, but in the console market they are doing a very good job and I'm not blind enough to recognise that.

Correction: GT was. Now it doesn't seem so. Exactly what feature is GT lacking in right now that is putting it behind it's time? Cockpit view? Oh sure, now the standards have changed, and every car must have a cockpit view just because competition does so as well. I'm not saying your criticism is wrong, but the same can be said for other games because they are lagging behind in many aspects, like IDK, the car models? LOD? Racing Licenses like NASCAR and WRC? or maybe a car roster behind by a 600 cars?

360 is largely an FPS/Action fan's console and that's what most of the games are.

The racing genre is largely dead, with a few big players and lots of poor budget ones coming every now an again. Racing games these days are niche and GT and FM are the biggest players in a declining market.

As for the 'putting stickers on' in the game, it must be really insignificant as a feature when people have used it to design real race liveries.

I don't think so...

Grid
Race Driver Pro
Dirt 1/2/3
Project Gotham Racing 1/2/3/4
Need for Speed 9-15 (lol)
Burnout
Flatout
Split/Second
Blur
Midnight Club

That's what I could think of on the 360. Now how many of these have a livery editor?
And that's alot of racing games right there, and not from small or budget developers.

 

[VXR]

Those games have probably failed to sell in GT/Forza numbers. Shift is going for £12.99 pre-owned and £20 new in some Uk shops. Paradise wasn't as well received by Burnout fans as the old games were. Blur and Split Second have largely been ignored. Grid is two years old. Race Pro is seriously dated and would have been lucky to sell 500k copies.

And where GT is something of an anachronism is that if it follows the old GT model, it's the same game with a distinct lack of user-created features. Even its track editor is quite limited. I'm not really questioning if it's going to be a great sim, of that there can be little doubt, but it's also in danger of being GT4 with a couple of new car licenses if car customization is ignored.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Grid
Race Driver Pro
Dirt 1/2/3
Project Gotham Racing 1/2/3/4
Need for Speed 9-15 (lol)
Burnout
Flatout
Split/Second
Blur
Midnight Club

That's what I could think of on the 360. Now how many of these have a livery editor?
And that's alot of racing games right there, and not from small or budget developers.

Most of them are multiplatform though, or just don't sell that good.
What's "Race Driver Pro"?

EDIT: Oh, RACE Pro.
Hm, cheap GTR spin-off.

 

[Pierced Lead]

Those games have probably failed to sell in GT/Forza numbers. Shift is going for £12.99 pre-owned and £20 new in some Uk shops. Paradise wasn't as well received by Burnout fans as the old games were. Blur and Split Second have largely been ignored. Grid is two years old. Race Pro is seriously dated and would have been lucky to sell 500k copies.

I occasionally play Dirt, Grid, Blur, Paradise and Flatout on the PC, but every time I come on there are more than enough races with enough players for me to enjoy. Sure they aren't mega-sellers except for the milked NFS series but the community is very active in them, and speaking of community...

And where GT is something of an anachronism is that if it follows the old GT model, it's the same game with a distinct lack of user-created features. Even its track editor is quite limited. I'm not really questioning if it's going to be a great sim, of that there can be little doubt, but it's also in danger of being GT4 with a couple of new car licenses if car customization is ignored.

Photomode and Tuning Options say hi; take a look at this site.

Most of them are multiplatform though, or just don't sell that good.
What's "Race Driver Pro"?

EDIT: Oh, RACE Pro.
Hm, cheap GTR spin-off.

That wasn't the point.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Of course, the point was if the 360 is a shooter console or not, compared to the PS3.
Using multiplatform titles to prove the opposite doesn't really make sense.

The general 360 crowd indeed seems to be a bit more shooter orientated by the way, but that's nothing bad at all. Let everyone play what he wants.

 

[VXR]

Photomode and tuning options say hi in Shift and FM2, let alone 3.

Why is is such an issue that people might feel they've moved on from GT? You know, if it ended up with some of these features of other games and more people felt inclined to rejoin the happy clappy la la GT world then the game would have been put out of reach of its competitors, but as it is, hype and graphics aren't really tangible reasons to spend a lot of money on a game that might get a bit stale pretty quickly.

 

[Forgetful]

How many threads do you see me creating? I am not bringing the stuff up, I am mostly responding. It's not like I haven't accepted what's coming down the pipe, but as long as some people keep talking about it, I am likely to be one of them. Whether you like the position I represent when doing so is completely a seperate issue.

I just don't see how you can be so disgusted by the 'fanboys' who have to praise the game at every opportunity, all the while taking any chance to highlight the negative. It's a direct equivalency.Though you are quite often reasonable and rational with your discussions, frequency is the problem. That, and the fact that you have to latch on to every possible complaint. I know they say "Expect perfection", but anyone that honestly believes perfection is attainable is foolish.

Though, it's not you entirely. As I said, you can be quite reasonable, but with the usual suspects that accompany your sentiments, it becomes a mirror image of those you decry in you signature. Just like those with legitimate concerns are not monolithic, or ignorant to the high points, neither are the 'fanboys' monolithic and ignorant to the faults.

This idea that all 'fanboys' are blind to any faults, and that standing up to them in every thread, every day, is somehow this noble cause is what gets to me. If you think you're doing people a favour, you're not. I can appreciate shining light on GT's dark corners, but you're freakin' blinding me over here.

You're entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to my opinion of your opinion.

I don't mean this to be a personal attack on you, deve, but I do feel the need to speak out against trends that I find make it difficult to participate around here, and neither side is totally innocent in that regard.

 

[Pierced Lead]

Photomode and tuning options say hi in Shift and FM2, let alone 3.

Why is is such an issue that people might feel they've moved on from GT? You know, if it ended up with some of these features of other games and more people felt inclined to rejoin the happy clappy la la GT world then the game would have been put out of reach of its competitors, but as it is, hype and graphics aren't really tangible reasons to spend a lot of money on a game that might get a bit stale pretty quickly.

Why are you assuming all Forza players are ex-GT fans? Yes I know some people have their own opinions and choices and I don't care whether they move on from one game to the other but the way you're making a big deal of GT's flaws and calling it aged and behind the times all the while without looking at other games and their issues is just wrong.

And @ Underlined part, LOL.

 

[Devedander]

I just don't see how you can be so disgusted by the 'fanboys' who have to praise the game at every opportunity, all the while taking any chance to highlight the negative. It's a direct equivalency.Though you are quite often reasonable and rational with your discussions, frequency is the problem. That, and the fact that you have to latch on to every possible complaint. I know they say "Expect perfection", but anyone that honestly believes perfection is attainable is foolish.

Though, it's not you entirely. As I said, you can be quite reasonable, but with the usual suspects that accompany your sentiments, it becomes a mirror image of those you decry in you signature. Just like those with legitimate concerns are not monolithic, or ignorant to the high points, neither are the 'fanboys' monolithic and ignorant to the faults.

This idea that all 'fanboys' are blind to any faults, and that standing up to them in every thread, every day, is somehow this noble cause is what gets to me. If you think you're doing people a favour, you're not. I can appreciate shining light on GT's dark corners, but you're freakin' blinding me over here.

You're entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to my opinion of your opinion.

I don't mean this to be a personal attack on you, deve, but I do feel the need to speak out against trends that I find make it difficult to participate around here, and neither side is totally innocent in that regard.

Ah but you see a fanboy is someone who is irrationally positive and exists to defend and be positive no matter what the end.

I know it's easy to miss and something many don't want to see, but I am not always negative, I am often positive about positive things, like I think karting looks like it's going to be a lot of fun and the track creator thing has a lot of potential and I have said as much repeatedly... some just don't want to see it and some don't realize you can be simultaneously happy and dissapointed with different aspects of the same feature.

I don't try to make things worse than they are, I just calll it like I see it. And the opposite stance of being positive is someone who rationally and logically talks about the positives.

When fanboyism comes into play is when rationality and logic get left behind... when the goald becomes not the discussion but rather the fulfilling of the belief that it is good. The opposite being the troll who constantly is irrationally and illogically negative.

I dont think you can really say I am a troll... at best you can say I am a pessimist and I prefer to say realist.

The reason it looks so one sided is because this forum has a lot of fanboys and in the process of countering them, one has to be constantly explaining the flaws of their irrational positiviness, which involves drawing a lot of attention to the negatives.

So in short, I am not the equal but opposite of the fanboy... the fanboy constantly makes statements like KY is a God, GT5 will be great, ignore the negative and be appreciative of the positive etc etc. Basically they could be the used car salesmen of GT5.

I make a lot of points that may be negative, but usually I can back them with logical and rational arguments and statements.

One thing I think makes me stand out is I am very active... so there are a lot of fair weather fanboys who show up, talk the tallk and then dissapear... often only making a few dozen posts or less... I am here to rebut them all equally. That might make me look like the super negative guy, but really it's just that don't go away... I am no more negative than is reasonable, I just have been around and am so prolific it seems I am overwhelmingly so, but you will note often I say the same thing again and again because a new face pops up making the same error the last one did and I just respond the same way.

 

[Raitziger]

Do you like that premiums and standards are in different folders in garage? I personally would like to search car from both types with one search when selecting car for a race.

 

[tinram]

photomode and tuning options say hi in shift and fm2, let alone 3.

Why is is such an issue that people might feel they've moved on from gt? You know, if it ended up with some of these features of other games and more people felt inclined to rejoin the happy clappy la la gt world then the game would have been put out of reach of its competitors, but as it is, hype and graphics aren't really tangible reasons to spend a lot of money on a game that might get a bit stale pretty quickly.

lol

 

[eSZee]

Do you like that premiums and standards are in different folders in garage? I personally would like to search car from both types with one search when selecting car for a race.

Honestly I don't, as it suggests that the cars might be divided in the game. Fear that you might not be able to race standard vs premium.

 

[motortrend]

I kinda do since I'll probably be doing most of my driving in a premium and I don't think it's hard to spend a bit more time to find your car if you don't remember if it's standard or premium. I find that races would look weird with standard and premium cars together, I think i'd actually like them separated, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Robin]

Everything seems dreamy in official GT5 screenshot land until you see this...

Seriously thats the worst image of standard cars in GT5 I have ever seen (cropped from a menu pic), and what hurts more is that most of the game is going to look like this. Why on earth did PD think it was clever to port last gen models into this game? I know Forza did the same but at least the models were from the same gen hardware.

 

[MA3LK]

Honestly i don't see anything bad in that pic, yea the polys are less but they still look decent.

If they hadn't added the GT4 cars, we would miss out on some epic cars like the e-type jag which was my favourite car in GT4.

 

[Nielsen]

Honestly i don't see anything bad in that pic, yea the polys are less but they still look decent.

If they hadn't added the GT4 cars, we would miss out on some epic cars like the e-type jag which was my favourite car in GT4.

Yes they look decent but that's also why they don't fit in a game where the emphasis seems to be an amazing level of detail.

 

[Tornado]

I have to say, I hope that is only the replay HUD. I can't remember the Time Trial Demo, but I don't recall it being anywhere near that bad.

The story behind that was someone created a thread called "Epic whiners ragers and emos" or something like that as a sort of way to take a stab at anyone who had a negative opinion... I think trying to make people so ashamed of it that they would shut up and leave. Ironically people did just what the thread asked, kept the negatives to that thread more or less and it went on for dozens of pages I believe...

Which was basically what happened with the thread I made about the Standard cars people were looking forward to. I made a big grandstanding opening post taking the piss out of everyone to try to lighten the mood, and half the posts in the thread basically ended up being whining about the original post not taking their opinions seriously enough (even though the original topic specifically lampooned an idea that I have completely supported from the start).

I know they say "Expect perfection", but anyone that honestly believes perfection is attainable is foolish.

And yet an awful lot of people seem to use it as a justification. There was a straight faced example of such just a couple of pages ago.

I just don't see how you can be so disgusted by the 'fanboys' who have to praise the game at every opportunity, all the while taking any chance to highlight the negative. It's a direct equivalency.Though you are quite often reasonable and rational with your discussions, frequency is the problem. That, and the fact that you have to latch on to every possible complaint. I know they say "Expect perfection", but anyone that honestly believes perfection is attainable is foolish.

Though, it's not you entirely. As I said, you can be quite reasonable, but with the usual suspects that accompany your sentiments, it becomes a mirror image of those you decry in you signature. Just like those with legitimate concerns are not monolithic, or ignorant to the high points, neither are the 'fanboys' monolithic and ignorant to the faults.

I've basically followed Devedander through most of the stuff he has said. I've done it in this thread, I did it in the Rewind threads, and I've probably done it in other GT5 threads. And I'm pretty sure (?) I did the same thing back when GTPSP came out, when people were falling over themselves to justify all of the problems people had with that game.
Strictly speaking, I don't even really agree with Deve all the time (regardless of what some of the more obnoxious trolls have said). I think Rewind is a terrible idea, and I never wanted GT5 to have it (I just never actually cared if it did end up with it). And, other than lack of interiors, I couldn't care less about the Standard/Premium differences. But I cannot stand people who are intentionally ignorant (and no, I'm not saying that everyone I've disagreed with have been intentionally ignorant), and while I agree that there are two sides to every coin, surely you must understand that the foolish people of the internet joining a GT fansite just to go all Sony Defense Force on people will more than likely come down heavily in support of GT rather than against it.

I have a long and storied history in the Sonic fanbase, where everyone hates everyone else over things far more trivial than anything (well, almost anything) I've ever seen mentioned on these boards; but it still, for lack of better terminology, pisses me off to see those same kind of blind fools prancing around the GT fanbase, literally calling Kaz some kind of deity and acting like everything that can be viewed as a failing on PDs part simply must be the fault of someone else or not a failing at all. And while expect Deve probably doesn't feel as strongly about, his raison d'être probably stems from largely the same idea.
Now, of course there are people who represent the other side with completely level headed, well-written responses and ideas that I simply disagree with rather than hold in contempt (Tenacious D is an example), but by and large they seem to be the minority rather than the majority. And like Deve said, every week or so there are new members who basically parrot the same fanboy ideas that everyone just finished talking about, and the cycle begins anew.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Everything seems dreamy in official GT5 screenshot land until you see this...

.edit

Seriously thats the worst image of standard cars in GT5 I have ever seen (cropped from a menu pic), and what hurts more is that most of the game is going to look like this. Why on earth did PD think it was clever to port last gen models into this game? I know Forza did the same but at least the models were from the same gen hardware.

It has been pointed out somewhere else on this site that this is a photoshopped image of a GT4 screen within a GT5 frame and not a GT5 screen shot.

Do you like that premiums and standards are in different folders in garage? I personally would like to search car from both types with one search when selecting car for a race.

There is a shot on this site, I can't rember where, and it shows the garage. There are different tabs visible for Premium, Standard and Online cars and various methods of sorting within that by date etc.

Edit.

http://us.gran-turismo.com/us/news/d5297p2.html

It's the third picture down next to the 330 P4.

 

[Robin]

It has been pointed out somewhere else on this site that this is a photoshopped image of a GT4 screen within a GT5 frame and not a GT5 screen shot.

Oh really.... well how come its on the official US playstation blog then! Don't misinform people because then it will spread all over the net.

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/08/19/gran-turismo-5s-gamescom-announcements/

Yes they look decent but that's also why they don't fit in a game where the emphasis seems to be an amazing level of detail.

Thats why its so stupid in my opinion, if PD are trying to make a game which is absolutely beautiful and groundbreaking why ruin it with stuff like this. Its like having an art gallery full of priceless pieces and then some (or in this case 80%) shop bought posters from Argos!

Robin.

 

[Killa Aaron]

Oh really.... well how come its on the official US playstation blog then! Don't misinform people because then it will spread all over the net.

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/08/19/gran-turismo-5s-gamescom-announcements/



Thats why its so stupid in my opinion, if PD are trying to make a game which is absolutely beautiful and groundbreaking why ruin it with stuff like this. Its like having an art gallery full of priceless pieces and then some (or in this case 80%) shop bought posters from Argos!

Robin.

So let me get this straight you wouldn't be complaining if they only had the 200+ premiums?

 

[Tired Tyres]

I take your point about how thing like this can spread over the internet, but It's funny how that one shot at the top of the page is the ONLY shot on that page that doesn't come from the Official GT site isn't it.

http://us.gran-turismo.com/us/news/d5297p1.html

 

[Emet_PL]

But still it's not from GT4. Look at the shadows and the rims. It's definitely from GT5...

 

[Forgetful]

One thing I think makes me stand out is I am very active... so there are a lot of fair weather fanboys who show up, talk the tallk and then dissapear... often only making a few dozen posts or less... I am here to rebut them all equally. That might make me look like the super negative guy, but really it's just that don't go away... I am no more negative than is reasonable, I just have been around and am so prolific it seems I am overwhelmingly so, but you will note often I say the same thing again and again because a new face pops up making the same error the last one did and I just respond the same way.

You know what's funny is that I'm very familiar with where you're coming from. I'm not as active here (I don't think that bit about people with few posts was about me), but I do usually play the voice of reason, and sometimes it makes me look like the bad guy, over at the PSN boards. It's a fine line sometimes. It is the irrational on both sides that make things difficult.

I was quite careful not to use the word troll, and like I said, it wasn't even really a problem with you personally. You just triggered my sentiment, and carried on the discussion with me. If anything, you and I are the equal opposites, as I'm the cautious optimist, and you're the measured pessimist. We apparently differ on what defines the criteria for ranking racing games.

My biggest concern lies not with the fanboys and trolls, but with a general lack of respect for those who have poured their heart and soul in to making such a high quality product. These people are craftsmen (and women), artists, mathematicians, physicists and car nerds to boot. And that's not any undeserved praise, and that's not even considering Kaz.

When the moans pour in about the livery editor not making it, or the simplicity of the course editor, or even the 5 years it took, I try to put myself in the shoes of the people who actually have to make this stuff happen. I look at what they have done, and I scratch my head as to how or when the might be able to do more. What about resources? Disk space? Processing power? Development time (lord knows that was long enough)?

I certainly don't hold myself in the regard that I know better than the developers, or even enough to understand why we have to have 800 standard cars and no livery editor. Arguing your 'know better' vs. someone else' 'know better' is just downright pointless.

Like I said, it's not about any one complaint, or even if they're valid or well backed up, it's about eventually understanding and/or accepting those drawbacks, and deciding to play the game or not. I'm not saying things shouldn't be discussed either. Just do it with some respect. Those fanboys might just be acting overzealous because they're offended by what they see as your trolling, and vice-versa.

 

[Robin]

So let me get this straight you wouldn't be complaining if they only had the 200+ premiums?

No I wouldnt! If we had only the premiums, proper damage, weather and day night cycle across the whole board I would be happy. Who knows how much they could have improved and added if they hadnt bothered spending time porting those cars! We may have even got more premiums, maybe a full track editor and a livery editor.

I take your point about how thing like this can spread over the internet, but It's funny how that one shot at the top of the page is the ONLY shot on that page that doesn't come from the Official GT site isn't it.

http://us.gran-turismo.com/us/news/d5297p1.html

I dont know why but its official and that picture is on many other gaming websites who have recieved the official gamescom screens. I made sure I got it from the official blog specifically incase people said it was fake!

Robin.

 

[Captain Roh]

I'm coming around to this idea of splitting standards and premiums. I get two games, one hyper realistic simulation experience with amazingly detailed premiums, a wheel peripheral, professional physics and cockpit view. And another with over 800 cars to choose from, a joypad, chase cam and standard physics.

Thats how I intend to play it anyway. Sim and arcade racer in one! Thank you PD

 

[Tornado]

Wait, Standard cars can't use the Professional physics? Or are you just speaking hypothetically for your intentions?

 

[VXR]

It's amazing that people can criticize the graphics of other games and yet can somehow square PS2-era cars presented in 1080p as still being a good-looking game. Blind faith works wonders.

Here's the thing; if you happened to show a friend GT5 and you were using standard cars, they'd think the game looks OK, nothing special. It's never been GT's way to just look 'OK'.

Kaz should have put his foot down and left the game at 200 premiums and been able to soak up the praise for a graphical powerhouse and not have 200 brilliant cars and 800 poor relations. It's a poor compromise to suit numbers fans.

 

[Captain Roh]

Wait, Standard cars can't use the Professional physics? Or are you just speaking hypothetically for MY intentions?

 

[Enex]

Everything seems dreamy in official GT5 screenshot land until you see this...

Seriously thats the worst image of standard cars in GT5 I have ever seen (cropped from a menu pic), and what hurts more is that most of the game is going to look like this. Why on earth did PD think it was clever to port last gen models into this game? I know Forza did the same but at least the models were from the same gen hardware.

You know what? The cars reminds me something I've seen in GT PSP...
Maybe I'm wrong, hey, but they remind me of GT PSP.