Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[Spagetti69]

Agreed but PD are supposed to be better.
In reality what your saying is true, PD are not gods or the masters of all they survey.

There the same as any ordinary developer and I agree.

 

[Matti_Dude]

Seriously? All of this debating because 800 of the cars don't look as good as the other 200. It's not like you can't drive them or anything. They are still in the game and there is still more of them than there were cars in GT4. It could be a lot worse guys. Just think of it as 800 cars and then you get a bonus of 200 more awesome cars. Just because PD have been developing the game for over 5 years it doesn't mean it will be perfect. Have you seen how much detail is in those premium cars? I can imagine each one took a ridiculous amount of time to model and you are complaining because they aren't all modelled like that? If you don't like it that much, wait for GT6 when you have more premiums to play with.

 

[SONY_55]

@Devedander

 

[Imari]

Let's take this example:

You are an American. You live in America. You win a contest for $1000. It is to be paid out in 5 days, on Friday. You are rightly excited, and can't stop thinking about the things you're going to do with your money.

On Wednesday, you are told that the prize is actually 200 US dollars, and 800 Hong Kong dollars, which are worth substantially less.

Ultimately, you're still winning money, so you should be happy. But part of you is sad because suddenly you're not getting as much money as you thought you would be.

Some people are able to remain focussed on the positive. For others the feeling of loss is too strong and they feel upset. Regardless, it is the fault of the company running the competition for allowing the information to be revealed in a fashion that made the negative reaction possible.

Now, with regard to GT, either they knew about the 200/800 split more or less from the start, or they were forced into it by bad project management later along the line. If they knew up front the smart thing to do would be reveal that information as quickly as possible. But they didn't, they've strung it out as long as they could and now they've been forced to reveal it close to launch date resulting in a negative reaction from some potential customers.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

So let me get this straight GT5 has been poorly managed because we don't have 1000 premium cars. I shall reply back and say GT5 has been managed brilliantly because many features that were requested for Forza 3 happen to be in GT5. The fact that GT5 has Go karts, Track creator, day/night, 16 online, WRC, Nascar means they have spent these past 5 yrs very wisely.There is more to a racing game than just the cars!!

Having said this even if GT5 did have 1000 premium cars some will only find something else to complain about. As i've said countless times if you wanted 1000 premium cars+the above features I mention then GT5 would never see a release date. As for hiring more employees and to be honest considering the huge budget already spent on GT5 this wouldn't make great business sense.

So rather than moan about something we cannot change, why not look forward to all the other great features that GT5 will provide us. No doubt some won't take any notice of this because if you look back at their posts all they do is moan and complain!

 

[Mr Frappy]

The way I look at it, we are getting TWO HUNDRED premium cars, that's more than a lot of other racing games offer in total. I have never, ever had that many cars in any of my GT garages, so for me, that's an awesome number.

On top of that, we are getting EIGHT HUNDRED standard cars that form an encyclopedia of cars from all past GT games. They are all wrapped up the same great interface, and they have all been lovingly created, updated, and rendered better than they have ever been rendered before.

Yes, they have only ever shown us premium models. Yes, they have misled us a bit. Does it really matter? Not to me it doesn't, because to me GT isn't a car collection first and racing game second, it's the other way around. To that end, there are loads of new features to enhance the racing.

To cap it all off, you can count on plenty of DLC because they will probably make more money out of that than they do sales of the actual game.

 

[okami11408]

I think drive standard car is like playing GT4 on a new track.

 

[scandisk]

nvm

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

I think drive standard car is like playing GT4 on a new track.

Difference this time is you can use a standard car and race against 15 of your friends on a track that you have created. Couldn't do this on GT4!

 

[DestinyDanny]

Difference this time is you can use a standard car and race against 15 of your friends on a track that you have created. Couldn't do this on GT4!

Also don't forget about the new physics!

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

Also don't forget about the new physics!

I can't believe I forgot that lol.

You know im more worried about the online side of the game than how pretty the cars look. For instance i've recently been racing online on FM3 and I have witnessed some shocking behaviour i.e cutting corners, smashing into me, even some people deliberately being 1 lap behind and then trying to smash the leader off the track. I want to know how these idiots are going to be dealt with on GT5 i.e similiar penalty system to GT5P. This to me is far more important than how pretty the cars look because this has a massive effect on the gameplay.

 

[Mr Frappy]

I think drive standard car is like playing GT4 on a new track.

I kinda' disagree.

For me, it's about driving the cars and how they handle. The handling of all 1000+ cars will be up to same high standards, and if you use views like bumper or hood cam, there will be little to give away the fact that you are driving a standard car.

Yes, it's nice to have awesomely detailed cars to admire, and yes, it would be nice if all cars had a cockpit, but I think even the most stubborn of fans on here can appreciate that it would be totally unrealistic to get all 1000+ cars up to premium standard with cockpits and launch this generation. So, they had a decision to make, and I think it was the right one. Rather than settle for a middle-ground in terms of looks, they settled for a lower number of sumptuously detailed models, setting the groundwork for the future.

 

[Killinator]

God, going by some people acceptance of major flaw that is a Standard/Premium divide given its future proofed/ready for GT6,
I think PD should have just skipped GT5 altogether, then we could all be blissfully happy to know that there working on the next game of the next game,
Why dosn't anyone realise that future proofing DOSNT work, its been pointed out why on several occasions by Devedander, but I guess hes spoiling the party.
We have been told already that GT4 cars WERE future proofed........well its the future for those cars and they're not looking too good.

I wasnt expecting PS4 models for premiums, I was expecting PS3 models so I don't think it was unreasonable for PD to give a consistent quality of cars regardless of what amount they said were gonna be in the game, especially if they dont state from the outset that only 20% would have cockpits,
I would still be annoyed if they had of said it from the get go but it would have been alot more acceptable,
Instead we(well at least Me, and I'd wager plenty others) were lulled into thinking that all cars would have cockpits and all be of a consistent appearance with GT5P.

I accept physics are number 1 in a racing simulation, but way too many people seem to cleanly dismiss the enrichment the cockpit view gives to some people, I don't drive my car from the bonnet,bumber or trailing from camera behind, other games had cockpits but GT5P was the racer that got me driving consistently in cockpit view.

200 cars IS alot of cars, buts its all relative, 200 IS NOT alot when your talking about 1000 cars,
800, thats alot of cars that won't be up to spec despite being future proofed....
But hey, as long as GT6 is fixed right,
and then as long as GT7 is right,

becasue Kaz dosnt make mistakes, thats impossible, its our fault!

 

[Cheshyrkat]

It for one doesnt bother me. I was originally expecting GTHD and we all know(or should if we kept up) that Kaz's original intention was to reuse the source models from GT3/4. Along the way things changed. Much like the original plan for the near PS2 launch game GT2000 which was going to be an HD version of GT2 was eventually scrapped for GT3, GTHD seems to have just evolved to GT5. But unlike GT3 instead of only getting the limited number of new models we also get the hundreds of other cars that while not as good looking as the premiums look far from bad.
Ive been reading this thread off and on and like what has been mentioned maybe they couldve made all 1000 premium models in time if they had a fully devoted high number of car modeling staff but if interviews are to be believed GT5s development hasnt been ideal and the staff has been split across various projects/teams not to mention that the staff wasnt always 140+. During GT4 it was 75 if I remember correctly. There are too many unknowns and all we have to go on are the snipits here and there gleamed from interviews. We have no idea how long they tried to make GTHD a reality, we have no idea the time and resources it took to create the new graphics and physics engine. Just that it was apparently pretty long for the new physics since it wasnt included in Prologues original release and we saw a few updates and even then the physics engine is still being tweaked. No idea how much staff was pulled for GTPSP but it was mentioned it was significant enough to stall GT5's development. We do know, according to Kaz that the new cars take roughly the equivalent of 1 man 6 months to model but we have no idea how many modelers, photographers, scouts they have devoted to cars or if that number has been consistent. We do know at least one track has taken like two years but we do not know how much staff is devoted to track surveying or modeling, textures. We have no idea how much staff was devoted to the other various features or devoted to administration, network/DB support, PR and all the other support a running functioning company needs. I think some people forget that staff includes all the supporting staff as well.

Who knows if the project has been mismanaged. If you are peeved and pretty upset about the standard cars you probably have a more negative view. I personally think the project just evolved and as things didnt workout ideas/plans just changed. I also believe the new premium cars extreme detail is a byproduct of what they originally planned with GTHD and since those models didnt carry over well these new models are made with the intention of using with GT6 and beyond. While I would love to have 1000 premium cars and it would be easy for me to say they shouldve just hired 100 more modelers or outsourced the reality is that its not that easy. Projects change and evolve, there are money, time and resource constraints and any other hurdle that can arise.

 

[dzidza]

From Amar's post we have known that there are going to be Premium and Standard cars. Some of you refused to believe that, and you lured yourself into thinking all 1000 cars will have cockpits.

It's not so easy to just employee more people to finish products earlier. For e.g. what if Kaz said to Sony "I want more people, the game will be finishes earlier", and they said "ok, lets ask our shareholders. And shareholders said "we are sorry but that isn't in the Business Plan, and more people means more cost, and less profit, surly revenue will increase but will it increase more then costs, and in this recession times it's not acceptable". This is just a simple example. What will happen to those people after GT5 is done, and we have 1000 premium cars for which Kaz is saying are PS4 material. Obviously they will not be needed for GT6, so they need to cut them loose and also pay them ransom.

 

[analog]

Let's take this example:

You are an American. You live in America. You win a contest for $1000. It is to be paid out in 5 days, on Friday. You are rightly excited, and can't stop thinking about the things you're going to do with your money.

On Wednesday, you are told that the prize is actually 200 US dollars, and 800 Hong Kong dollars, which are worth substantially less.

Ultimately, you're still winning money, so you should be happy. But part of you is sad because suddenly you're not getting as much money as you thought you would be.

Some people are able to remain focussed on the positive. For others the feeling of loss is too strong and they feel upset. Regardless, it is the fault of the company running the competition for allowing the information to be revealed in a fashion that made the negative reaction possible.

Now, with regard to GT, either they knew about the 200/800 split more or less from the start, or they were forced into it by bad project management later along the line. If they knew up front the smart thing to do would be reveal that information as quickly as possible. But they didn't, they've strung it out as long as they could and now they've been forced to reveal it close to launch date resulting in a negative reaction from some potential customers.

👍 The whole debate in a nutshell.

 

[maxpontiac]

Let's take this example:

You are an American. You live in America. You win a contest for $1000. It is to be paid out in 5 days, on Friday. You are rightly excited, and can't stop thinking about the things you're going to do with your money.

On Wednesday, you are told that the prize is actually 200 US dollars, and 800 Hong Kong dollars, which are worth substantially less.

Ultimately, you're still winning money, so you should be happy. But part of you is sad because suddenly you're not getting as much money as you thought you would be.

Some people are able to remain focussed on the positive. For others the feeling of loss is too strong and they feel upset. Regardless, it is the fault of the company running the competition for allowing the information to be revealed in a fashion that made the negative reaction possible.

Now, with regard to GT, either they knew about the 200/800 split more or less from the start, or they were forced into it by bad project management later along the line. If they knew up front the smart thing to do would be reveal that information as quickly as possible. But they didn't, they've strung it out as long as they could and now they've been forced to reveal it close to launch date resulting in a negative reaction from some potential customers.

I see the point of your analogy, but there is one issue you need to keep in mind.

GT5 is a video game. Nothing more, nothing less.

As far as bad management goes, it's the 90/10 rule. 90% of potential customers will buy this game regardless. With the other 10%, all that one can do is hope for the best.

It's time to move on, or go back and play something else, and that's about as blunt as it could be.

 

[yellowclone]

Standards in action - first Time I've seen this vid
Some of them do have cockpits

Thanks, I don't remember seeing that even though it is 4 years old. I did notice some things though that I want to point out. He said that most of it was GT4/Tourist Trophy assets, which is somewhat obvious. Everyone always says that PD shows their best stuff, so I would assume this was the best they had at that time. Remember, this was 4 years ago, not 6 years ago. I laugh at the people that say we only got 200 Premium cars in 6 years, which is not entirely true. I am only guessing, but I don't think they actually started on GT5 until probably after the PS3 launch in November 2006. GT5 is a whole new everything, so that GTHD stuff was not used except maybe for a few of the car model files. Kaz even said in an interview that he didn't know exactly how far they could push the PS3 until they got the coding they wanted, and he said it is far more difficult to design software on the PS3 than the PS2. I would venture to say that PD have only worked on GT5 for 4 years. GTPSP also came out since the work on GT5 has started, so that also has to factored into the equation of time spent on GT5, and how they managed their time. All I am saying is that PD has not strictly worked on making cars for GT5 since GT4 was released 6 years ago. Tourist Trophy came out in 2006, right? That would mean that most of the time between 2004 and 2006 was most likely spent on that and GTHD, not GT5.

Enough about ^ that, so I would like to move on to something else I noticed that he said in that video. He said the latest SEMA award winner was a S2000 drift car, and said it would be in the next GT game, so do we make the assumption that all the SEMA award cars should be in GT5? If so, I would think that the ones that were in previous GT games will be kept as they are, but the new ones would be premium. We know the HPA TT, the G37, the Art Morrison Corvette, and most likely the Trans Cammer Mustang are in, so is it safe to say, that S2000 (the 2005 winner) http://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=11xg5.jpg that he mentioned will be in? It would be nice if all the SEMA cars were premium, but I fear that the '62 Buick and HPA VW Golf will remain standard.

Anyway, that is a couple things that I noticed in that interview.

 

[Dynablaster]

I think its a shame but acceptable cus they are only humans and day is 24 hours long. I hope for GT6 they will all be premium. I play with cockpit camera so its premium only for me

 

[danielwhite74]

This comment would hold more weight if a) people weren't always using GT's promotional renders as a comparison to in-game Forza shots, and b) it was coming from someone who doesn't go into the FM3 image thread just to stir up a fight.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm afraid you have it entirely backwards. Each and every screenshot of Gran Turismo 5 has been entirely genuine, whereas Turn 10 have never once released a legitimate screenshot of Forza 3. I'll even take it upon myself to post photographic proof.

 

[VXR]

Photomode is still in-game regardless of what you wish to say regards the actual race model.

In those shots of GT5P, does it have a camera control on the right stick? I haven't played it.

 

[Mr Frappy]

God, going by some people acceptance of major flaw that is a Standard/Premium divide given its future proofed/ready for GT6,
I think PD should have just skipped GT5 altogether, then we could all be blissfully happy to know that there working on the next game of the next game,
Why dosn't anyone realise that future proofing DOSNT work, its been pointed out why on several occasions by Devedander, but I guess hes spoiling the party.
We have been told already that GT4 cars WERE future proofed........well its the future for those cars and they're not looking too good.

I wasnt expecting PS4 models for premiums, I was expecting PS3 models so I don't think it was unreasonable for PD to give a consistent quality of cars regardless of what amount they said were gonna be in the game, especially if they dont state from the outset that only 20% would have cockpits,
I would still be annoyed if they had of said it from the get go but it would have been alot more acceptable,
Instead we(well at least Me, and I'd wager plenty others) were lulled into thinking that all cars would have cockpits and all be of a consistent appearance with GT5P.

I accept physics are number 1 in a racing simulation, but way too many people seem to cleanly dismiss the enrichment the cockpit view gives to some people, I don't drive my car from the bonnet,bumber or trailing from camera behind, other games had cockpits but GT5P was the racer that got me driving consistently in cockpit view.

200 cars IS alot of cars, buts its all relative, 200 IS NOT alot when your talking about 1000 cars,
800, thats alot of cars that won't be up to spec despite being future proofed....
But hey, as long as GT6 is fixed right,
and then as long as GT7 is right,

becasue Kaz dosnt make mistakes, thats impossible, its our fault!

Being blunt Killinator, if that's how you feel, that's your prerogative, and I respect that. However, as I often say, from a selfish perspective, I don't care how others perceive the game. For me, having the graphical split between the two models is a non-issue because I don't use cockpit view. I'm an old-skool racer and go with bumper-cam anyway.

It's not about defending Kaz, I don't even know the bloke. It's about accepting that at the end of the day, it is just a racing game. To that end, Cheshyrkat pretty much took the words out of my mouth - I was expecting, and would have been happy with a larger implementation of GTHD. Absolutely everything else above and beyond that is icing on the cake.

Regarding you not driving your car from the bonnet, bumber or trailing from camera behind, I don't suppose you drive your car sat in a chair staring at a screen either, using a game controller, but you seem happy with that element.

 

[okami11408]

Those pictures are not gameplay, it's a replay.

 

[alucard0712]

Those pictures are not gameplay, it's a replay.

Performance the same.

 

[danielwhite74]

Photomode is still in-game regardless of what you wish to say regards the actual race model.

In the light of the fact that the car model is clearly of much lower quality than the one used during the race, it's not in-game at all. There's actually a loading time of a few seconds prior to entering Photo Mode, as the game renders the higher quality graphics of Photo Mode.

In those shots of GT5P, does it have a camera control on the right stick? I haven't played it.

No, it doesn't. There is an option to view the car from the front during gameplay by holding L1, though.

Those pictures are not gameplay, it's a replay.

Which pictures do you mean; those of Forza or Gran Turismo? Regardless, either way you're wrong.

 

[Matti_Dude]

In forza the amount of polygons changes from in-game to the photomode. Before FM3 was released they were bragging about how many polygons their cars had, but that is only in the menu screens and in photo mode. When you are actually racing the cars look a lot worse because of the lower poly count. Comparing a standard car to one from Forza 3 I would say they are pretty similar, maybe GT even edges it but Forza's cars do have cockpits. (Although some of the cockpits are pretty shocking)

 

[sono]

Turn10 talk still legit. Since the shots released from them was 100% in-game photomode pictures (just a few with a "special" photomode where there's no driver inside).

Some GT5p promo shots are photoshoped (like some cockpit shots with motion blur). The GT5 photos we'll can judge when the game gets released.

 

[alucard0712]

^^^ I think it's in-game photo effects.PD are serious about photography - I'm sure they did a professional photo-mode, just like the real photo camera.(so people who know how to make photos will use all their professional abilities)

 

[Spagetti69]

Forza's cars still look ok to me.
If GT standards match Forza3 cars I'm happy.
Though I doubt they will.

 

[AleksandarSRB]

I will drive standard car's with same passion as premium's... End of story!