Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[HaRdLiNeR]

PD chose quality.

thats why i am loving PD and the game! that is the best and most important sentence in the post!

 

[trk29]

Well thanks GT for clarifying your viewpoint or point of view and I really hope it will be that good.
Ofcourse it's a personal preference above all else and strictly speaking all elements of a game can be seen as trivial to an extend perhaps, it's the combination of all factors combined which create the full experience, was just hoping cockpit view was in the mix for all cars as to me it's an addictive new element ( which changed the way I experienced the game dramatically and that's essential in playing any game, the experience ) which I took for granted since playing Prologue.
Anyway I'm also still counting the days until November arrives, no doubt about that.

I am with you all the way. I believe GT5P has spoiled me rotten. I used bumper cam in all the previous GT's and now all I use is cockpit, every now and then I might choose bonnet cam just to get a different experience from what PD has to offer. But when you get to play the game in a full rig with seat and steering wheel, maybe a beer or two and that is how I plan to experience GT5! I seriously can't wait to play this game. GT5P is a marvel in it's self and it still blows me away.

 

[analog]

I am with you all the way. I believe GT5P has spoiled me rotten. I used bumper cam in all the previous GT's and now all I use is cockpit, every now and then I might choose bonnet cam just to get a different experience from what PD has to offer. But when you get to play the game in a full rig with seat and steering wheel, maybe a beer or two and that is how I plan to experience GT5! I seriously can't wait to play this game. GT5P is a marvel in it's self and it still blows me away.

Don't drink and drive, you'll spill your beer , anyway I've recently tried to prepare myself for driving the Standard cars by changing from cockpit view to another view in Prologue and I can't really get used to any.
Bumper cam just feels boring and provides no visual stimulus at all and all cars are indistinguishable apart from handling ofcourse, roof cam is set way too high which doesn't feel right and chase cam feels a bit like driving an R/C car after cockpit view.
How did I even manage to enjoy previous GT-games? Think I'll just wait and see how it turns out but I'll fear those Standard cars aren't providing the same fun I had playing them in GT4 purely because in GT4 I was blissfully unaware and hadn't experienced cockpit view before.

 

[minihulkster]

Don't drink and drive, you'll spill your beer , anyway I've recently tried to prepare myself for driving the Standard cars by changing from cockpit view to another view in Prologue and I can't really get used to any.
Bumper cam just feels boring and provides no visual stimulus at all and all cars are indistinguishable apart from handling ofcourse, roof cam is set way too high which doesn't feel right and chase cam feels a bit like driving an R/C car after cockpit view.
How did I even manage to enjoy previous GT-games? Think I'll just wait and see how it turns out but I'll fear those Standard cars aren't providing the same fun I had playing them in GT4 purely because in GT4 I was blissfully unaware and hadn't experienced cockpit view before.

I've been doing the same thing to get ready for standards. However, I have been able to get used to it, but cockpit view has much more immersion.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

But then on the next generation of consoles, where other developers start making cars of the sort we're seeing of the premiums in GT5?

You see, if PD had made all cars to the same level of detail. The time constraints mean they'd maybe managed 80k models. Not only would they be below the level of detail shown ingame in Forza, Shift, TDU2, etc. they would have to be re-done AGAIN for the next console generation. It would simply be a waste of time. PD chose quality. And because they can, they added all their old cars in for good measure, because 1000 is better than 200.

Well, going further with my suggestion... yeah, they would need to update again with the next generation, though if the models were built to the same style as Premiums now (multi-piece, not GT4's or GT5-Standards one-piece), it would be a lot easier to update them in future iterations. Plus, the current situation hasn't helped them escape the need to update any more than my hypothetical situation; if anything, the current real situation is worse, because those Standards definitely all need to be replaced by the time of the next generation if PD wants to be considered wholly top of the pile in modeling prowess. I sure hope we're not going to have any PS2 models on PS4.

Are you telling me you think that with only 4 months as opposed to 6 per car, you think PD would maybe only be able to make models with less than half the poly count of the ones in Prologue? Or that, with 4 months instead of 6, they wouldn't be able to make higher detail models than all those other games? Sorta tells you how slowly PD works then, because I doubt those games need as much time per car, since they haven't had half-decade build times

Obviously this is all going on assumptions though, and I recognize it won't change the situation any. I just feel having one uniform level of quality across the game, even if lower than the current Premiums, and even if it requires more work in the future, is better than having 2 varying levels. Wholesale recycling of a six year old game would get the criticism of "lazy" if it were any other game.

Don't drink and drive, you'll spill your beer , anyway I've recently tried to prepare myself for driving the Standard cars by changing from cockpit view to another view in Prologue and I can't really get used to any.
Bumper cam just feels boring and provides no visual stimulus at all and all cars are indistinguishable apart from handling ofcourse, roof cam is set way too high which doesn't feel right and chase cam feels a bit like driving an R/C car after cockpit view.
How did I even manage to enjoy previous GT-games? Think I'll just wait and see how it turns out but I'll fear those Standard cars aren't providing the same fun I had playing them in GT4 purely because in GT4 I was blissfully unaware and hadn't experienced cockpit view before.

I've been doing similar. Before I ever had a wheel, I almost exclusively used chase cam; my reasoning was I'd rather see what my car is doing than just have nothing, like bumper cam. Once I got a wheel with GT4, it felt wrong to be chasing the car, so I switched to roof cam, because at least I still got an idea of where the extremities of my car were. Prologue has been mostly cockpit, though I'll switch to chase during some online races to have a better idea of what's going on around me (accident avoidance, etc). The only reason I think I'll have an easier time taking a step back to a previous view is because I've only owned Prologue for maybe 2 months . Since '98 then, 99% of my time with GT has been with chase cam.

 

[Seismica]

Plus, the current situation hasn't helped them escape the need to update any more than my hypothetical situation; if anything, the current real situation is worse, because those Standards definitely all need to be replaced by the time of the next generation if PD wants to be considered wholly top of the pile in modeling prowess. I sure hope we're not going to have any PS2 models on PS4.

Now that I agree on. 200 models over the course of 3-6 years (We don't know when development on the models started, or if it stopped during development for GTPSP). If GT6 is going to be out within 2-3 years, they have their work cut out if they intend on upgrading the standard cars to premium level. And that's ignoring all prospective new models between now and then.

Obviously this is all going on assumptions though, and I recognize it won't change the situation any. I just feel having one uniform level of quality across the game, even if lower than the current Premiums, and even if it requires more work in the future, is better than having 2 varying levels. Wholesale recycling of a six year old game would get the criticism of "lazy" if it were any other game.

Personally, I would rather have the premiums

I've been doing similar. Before I ever had a wheel, I almost exclusively used chase cam; my reasoning was I'd rather see what my car is doing than just have nothing, like bumper cam. Once I got a wheel with GT4, it felt wrong to be chasing the car, so I switched to roof cam, because at least I still got an idea of where the extremities of my car were. Prologue has been mostly cockpit, though I'll switch to chase during some online races to have a better idea of what's going on around me (accident avoidance, etc). The only reason I think I'll have an easier time taking a step back to a previous view is because I've only owned Prologue for maybe 2 months . Since '98 then, 99% of my time with GT has been with chase cam.

I've always wanted to know, does the force feedback provided by the wheel sufficiently replace the visual feedback that you get from chase cam? I use a pad with chase cam, and i've tried bumper cam in GT4 and cockpit view in GT5. But unless I practice with chase cam beforehand (To get used to the car, track, setup etc.) i'm useless. I can match my laptimes though, but only if I practice with chase cam beforehand.

 

[VXR]

FM3 is a bit scattershot, because certain models from FM2 were redone and some were not.

In-game graphics really are not that big a deal. I'm quite happy the cars are slightly less detailed if it means 60fps and the photomode cars stack up. Don't forget, to those who haven't played FM3 and only seen photos online, they are severely compressed by MS as soon as you send them to the web. Sharpness and colour rendition are greatly affected, hence why many use Flickr to host their Forza images to gain some of the quality back.

 

[Pierced Lead]

Last time I checked it took 6 months for one modeler to make one car, not the entire group. What do you call that term? Man hours or something like that?

So basically with a group of modelers it actually takes less time, but that doesn't change the fact they need more employees; I don't care if they feel like family the way they are, why not adopt some new members into the family? Hell, I have more friends on facebook than PD has employees.

 

[danielwhite74]

FM3 is a bit scattershot, because certain models from FM2 were redone and some were not.

In-game graphics really are not that big a deal. I'm quite happy the cars are slightly less detailed if it means 60fps and the photomode cars stack up. Don't forget, to those who haven't played FM3 and only seen photos online, they are severely compressed by MS as soon as you send them to the web. Sharpness and colour rendition are greatly affected, hence why many use Flickr to host their Forza images to gain some of the quality back.

To me, in-game graphics are the entire deal. Promotional renders and Photo Mode bullshots are fine to drool over prior to a game's release, but then we have real life for marvelling static images of other people's cars. When I've got my hands on that game, I also want to enjoy the graphics while I'm driving, and unfortunately Forza doesn't allow me to do that.

 

[TK42OnE]

To me, in-game graphics are the entire deal. Promotional renders and Photo Mode bullshots are fine to drool over prior to a game's release, but then we have real life for marvelling static images of other people's cars. When I've got my hands on that game, I also want to enjoy the graphics while I'm driving, and unfortunately Forza doesn't let me do that.

+1

Never understood the appeal of photo mode. I can look up HD pictures of the cars on google if I really want to.

In game, in race to be exact, is where it matters to me.

 

[DoctorFouad]

Why not? Hire more car modelers, make more cars. How is that not how it works?

"But you have to realize it's not as simple as "hire more people, make more cars.""


It amuses me that people sometimes have unbelievable expectations, they forgot we are humans, not perfect, and we live on a world with limited resources.

lol @ hire more people ! its simple !

lol, if we accept this reasoning, than GT5 must have not only 1000 premium cars, but 10,000 premium cars, or why not 50,000 ? or even modelling every car on earth since the invention of cars ! just hire more people !

there is a clear irony here, and something smells wrong with this statement :

1/ YES it is a question of costs, of available resources to polyphony digital, YES lets face it, Polyphony digital doesent have illimited resources as some people like to think so. the game already costs 60-80 million$ putting it as the most expansive video game ever created with 6 years of development time ! No game before GT5 ever took all those resources. so hiring more people will simply be problematic to polyphony from a financial point of view. they already got 140 staff paid monthly for 6 years and they didnt get yet a penny of benefice from GT5 sales, the game will ship 3d november 2010 (yes with GT5 rologue they gained a lot of money, but that allowed tem to work another 3 years on the game or else they cannot survive 6 years of development time, paying monthly 140 staff mwithout a copy of a game sold to market!)

2/ Some people have simply no idea of how it is difficult to hire new staff in a company, especially a software company, even more a video game development company, even more finding talented modellers staff for a video game development company developing a racing video game. Polyphony is in japan, and we have to believe it or not but not every japanese searching a job in japan is a talented car modeller, yes believe it or not !

3/ outsourcing modelling of cars. Already (I think seismica thanks) have answered this question : strict quality control and efficiency issues! YES polyphony could outsource car modelling, but than it is difficult for them to be sure that all cars are equally well modelled (different quality cars or even circuits is a problem in forza3). They could verify that each modeller used 500,000 polygons for each car, but they cant control if those external modellers are using those polygons efficiently. Albeit they could control their internal staff.

Add to this the problem of efficiency : imagine polyphony outsourced the modelling of 200 cars and they were doing another 200 cars at home. Now imagine they didnt order external modellers to model accurately the car's engines and bottom of cars, because they didnt think they are gonna need them later on to achieve a realistic damage system or that they didnt know that they are gonna allaw cars to flip upside down. But than after a couple years of development time, polyphony decided they are gonna need modelling of car engines + bottom of cars which actually happened, because I dont think GT5 prologue cars had engines and their bottoms modelled). What they are gonna do now ?!! return the models to the external company so they redo them ?!! this would cost them more money and more wasted time to negociate this shift with the external company. But the fact that they have only internal odellers, it was easy for them to improve the models of the cars without wasting too much time.

4/ I really wanna see any other video game company which achieved modelling 200 cars, with 500,000 polygons each. NO COMPANY EVER did that ! it is a first in our industry, we must really be happy about it.

5/ Also people must realize that to develop GT5,polyphony must not only medel cars, believe it or not but there are other resource eating activities, they have to model also tracks, human models, items...they must also include sound, work the physics engine, AI, gameplay, menus, create demos, trailers,...and put everything together...modelling cars is only a portion of their budget.


In short, we live in a world of limited resources, polyphony digital achieved in 6 years of development time with an 80 million $ budget : 200 future proof most detailed video game cars ever created ! with the most detailed 70 tracks ever created ! and one of the best gameplay physics ever created !...all of this is no other company ever achieved before. And yet people are blaming polyphony for not modelling 1000 premium cars ?!!!! this is craziness...

 

[Dapper]

It amuses me that people sometimes have unbelievable expectations, they forgot we are humans, not perfect, and we live on a world with limited resources.

We are limited by time and space, nothing more. Even then, go fast enough and time stands still, and we don't know our space limits, yet. But, I agree with your general sentiments

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

In short, we live in a world of limited resources, polyphony digital achieved in 6 years development time with 80 million $ 200 premium cars what no other company ever achieved before. And yet people are questioning why polyphony didnt make all 1000 cars premiums ?!!!! this is craziness...

Probably the best post in this thread and in my opinion you are spot on with everything you have said.

 

[IKizzLE]

Hopefully the GT5 process made them more efficient at modeling cars and doing all this new stuff so we can see GT6 no later than 2013...

 

[danielwhite74]

*snip*

Legendary post. This guy has an unbelievable amount of common sense. 👍

 

[Devedander]

Last time I checked it took 6 months for one modeler to make one car, not the entire group. What do you call that term? Man hours or something like that?

I don't think this was ever cleared up. I think it was just a matter of saying "we got X number of cars done in y number of months so it took z number of months per car to crank out". I don't think it was ever broken down into cars per person per month.

If it took 1 person 6 months per car, that's two cars per year per person. You could crank out 200 cars with 100 people in 1 year.

1/ YES it is a question of costs, of available resources to polyphony digital, YES lets face it, Polyphony digital doesent have illimited resources as some people like to think so.

Your whole posts consists of making assumptions and stating them as fact and using the logic that because it was, that's how it had to be.

For instance you keep saying we have to know PD had limited resources... well sure they don't have all the money in the whole world, but if they need more money, they can ask and quite likely get approved. Businesses like this are not magic fairly world where you are told $58 mill not a penny more go!

And it's hard to find talented modelers? Have you noticed the economy lately? Even in Japan people are hurting for jobs. Sure there aren't a limiltless supply of them, but an office of 140 surely isn't using up all there are available even considering other companies wanting the same talent.

Sorry what we have here is a big defense post that basically deflects blame through faulty logic of that's how it had to be because that's how it was.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Now that I agree on. 200 models over the course of 3-6 years (We don't know when development on the models started, or if it stopped during development for GTPSP). If GT6 is going to be out within 2-3 years, they have their work cut out if they intend on upgrading the standard cars to premium level. And that's ignoring all prospective new models between now and then.

👍

Hopefully they just limit you from putting Rosso Corsa on everything!

I've always wanted to know, does the force feedback provided by the wheel sufficiently replace the visual feedback that you get from chase cam? I use a pad with chase cam, and i've tried bumper cam in GT4 and cockpit view in GT5. But unless I practice with chase cam beforehand (To get used to the car, track, setup etc.) i'm useless. I can match my laptimes though, but only if I practice with chase cam beforehand.

Good FFB does exactly that, for me. But you still don't get the sense of g-forces you do in real life, which is why I used roof cam with a wheel in GT4, because it helped give a hint of how the car was reacting a bit better than the Ridge Racer feel of bumper cam. Cockpit view, even with a controller, is handy because you can see the relation between how the car is reacting (over/under - steer) and how crossed up the driver's arms are. It makes things like controlling a drift so much easier.

When I first switched to a wheel, it took me maybe a day of practice before I was matching my controller times. After that, I bested it. The biggest benefit is the more natural feeling (you don't drive with a DS3), and the travel of a pedal setup 👍

FM3 is a bit scattershot, because certain models from FM2 were redone and some were not.

In-game graphics really are not that big a deal. I'm quite happy the cars are slightly less detailed if it means 60fps and the photomode cars stack up. Don't forget, to those who haven't played FM3 and only seen photos online, they are severely compressed by MS as soon as you send them to the web. Sharpness and colour rendition are greatly affected, hence why many use Flickr to host their Forza images to gain some of the quality back.

...every time I look over in the FM3 board here, I see chromatic9's pictures. The man usually uses the usual image uploading method, or takes a picture of the set up shot (you'll see the focus circles lining the shot up in the centre). In other words, not the tons of Photoshop post-processing most of us used in the GT4 galleries. I defy anybody to not go look at his (or Moglet's) shots and not find them fantastic looking.

To me, in-game graphics are the entire deal. Promotional renders and Photo Mode bullshots are fine to drool over prior to a game's release, but then we have real life for marvelling static images of other people's cars. When I've got my hands on that game, I also want to enjoy the graphics while I'm driving, and unfortunately Forza doesn't allow me to do that.

This comment would hold more weight if a) people weren't always using GT's promotional renders as a comparison to in-game Forza shots, and b) it was coming from someone who doesn't go into the FM3 image thread just to stir up a fight.

there is a clear irony here, and something smells wrong with this statement :

I don't see any irony.

1/ YES it is a question of costs, of available resources to polyphony digital, YES lets face it, Polyphony digital doesent have illimited resources as some people like to think so. the game already costs 60-80 million$ putting it as the most expansive video game ever created with 6 years of development time ! No game before GT5 ever took all those resources. so hiring more people will simply be problematic to polyphony from a financial point of view. they already got 140 staff paid monthly for 6 years and they didnt get yet a penny of benefice from GT5 sales, the game will ship 3d november 2010 (yes with GT5 rologue they gained a lot of money, but that allowed tem to work another 3 years on the game or else they cannot survive 6 years of development time, paying monthly 140 staff mwithout a copy of a game sold to market!)

I think we all agree that cost is an issue here; hopefully Sony alleviates this issue by bankrolling the hiring of more modelers for PD. They deserve it and quite frankly need it at this point.

2/ Some people have simply no idea of how it is difficult to hire new staff in a company, especially a software company, even more a video game development company, even more finding talented modellers staff for a video game development company developing a racing video game. Polyphony is in japan, and we have to believe it or not but not every japanese searching a job in japan is a talented car modeller, yes believe it or not !

It might be different in Japan, but I can tell you it's plenty easy here. My school had regular visits from EA and Square-Enix where they'd come and meet with students who were doing our modeling courses, and there were more than a few ocassions where people walked out of finishing up their course with a job already secured. Heck, one guy dropped out because he was offered a job on the spot. Modelers don't have to be specifically "car modelers", either. It would help but isn't strictly necessary.

4/ I really wanna see any other video game company which achieved modelling 200 cars, with 500,000 polygons each. NO COMPANY EVER did that ! it is a first in our industry, we must really be happy about it.

No other company would survive not producing a proper sequel after this many years, either. One can quite reasonably argue that PD's Premium models had better be superior to what else is out there; they've had far, far more time to work on them than anybody else.

5/ Also people must realize that to develop GT5,polyphony must not only medel cars, believe it or not but there are other resource eating activities, they have to model also tracks, human models, items...they must also include sound, work the physics engine, AI, gameplay, menus, create demos, trailers,...and put everything together...modelling cars is only a portion of their budget.

Agreed, and again, I hope Sony fixes this after GT5's release and initial sales numbers roll in.

In short, we live in a world of limited resources, polyphony digital achieved in 6 years of development time with an 80 million $ budget : 200 future proof most detailed video game cars ever created !

True...

with the most detailed 70 tracks ever created !

Assumption.

and one of the best ameplay physics ever created !...

Assumption.

all of this is no other company ever achieved before. And yet people are blaming polyphony for not modelling 1000 premium cars ?!!!! this is craziness...

I was hoping for 1000 cars of uniform quality levels. Not a mish-mash of last-gen and current. I do understand simple math, and 1000 cars, considering the time it takes PD to make 1, just wasn't possible. But there was a solution to that to get one constant level of quality across the board...

Ah well. Like it's been said, maybe the design process will be streamlined in the near future, and combined with an increase in modelers (c'mon Sony, you owe it to PD!), we'll see a much quicker creation of Premiums, and GT6 can banish this issue. One can hope

 

[Seismica]

Sorry what we have here is a big defense post that basically deflects blame through faulty logic of that's how it had to be because that's how it was.

Indeed. However, the points he was making, his logic, made a clear and valid argument. It's quite negative to act defensive and accuse the other of 'deflecting blame' through 'faulty logic', in a constructive argument though. You're better than that. 👎

👍

Hopefully they just limit you from putting Rosso Corsa on everything!

Right that is it, i'm going to be very disappointed now if I can't get my Lamborghinis, Mclarens, RUFs etc. in Rosso Corsa. I remember I used to do this on GT5, buy all the cars in the same colour. Whilst it made navigating the garage screen a pain, I think all the cars suited it I want the option to respray a car any colour I like. To make up for the lack of a livery editor.

Good FFB does exactly that, for me. But you still don't get the sense of g-forces you do in real life, which is why I used roof cam with a wheel in GT4, because it helped give a hint of how the car was reacting a bit better than the Ridge Racer feel of bumper cam. Cockpit view, even with a controller, is handy because you can see the relation between how the car is reacting (over/under - steer) and how crossed up the driver's arms are. It makes things like controlling a drift so much easier.

I find cockpit view far easier to bumper cam, because you get at least some visual feedback. I feel if i'm using a small monitor with a wheel, bumper cam is the way to go. But i'll be essentially learning to drive/race all over again if the feedback isn't sufficient.

I think we all agree that cost is an issue here; hopefully Sony alleviates this issue by bankrolling the hiring of more modelers for PD. They deserve it and quite frankly need it at this point.

Agreed As Devedander pointed out, a team of 100 modellers (Which whilst larger, isn't radically more than they already have) working on cars could get all of those standard cars up to premium within 4 years. But if you remember all the duplicate cars that were in GT4 and GTPSP, the number is closer to 600 than 800 to be fair.

It might be different in Japan, but I can tell you it's plenty easy here. My school had regular visits from EA and Square-Enix where they'd come and meet with students who were doing our modeling courses, and there were more than a few ocassions where people walked out of finishing up their course with a job already secured. Heck, one guy dropped out because he was offered a job on the spot. Modelers don't have to be specifically "car modelers", either. It would help but isn't strictly necessary.

Mass recruitment of quality, experienced staff on the sort of scale PD required to finish 1000 cars for the release is a near impossible task. This is an assumption I know but, I think PD aren't willing to take on fresh graduates/trainees to work on one of the biggest franchises in console gaming.

No other company would survive not producing a proper sequel after this many years, either. One can quite reasonably argue that PD's Premium models had better be superior to what else is out there; they've had far, far more time to work on them than anybody else.

PD are lucky to have the financial backing from Sony. But this does not mean they can 'Spend spend spend'. They have to keep to a business model, like any other developer. I already expressed my view that GTPSP was a project born to help keep the funding channels open for GT5, nothing more.

I was hoping for 1000 cars of uniform quality levels. Not a mish-mash of last-gen and current. I do understand simple math, and 1000 cars, considering the time it takes PD to make 1, just wasn't possible. But there was a solution to that to get one constant level of quality across the board...

Ah well. Like it's been said, maybe the design process will be streamlined in the near future, and combined with an increase in modelers (c'mon Sony, you owe it to PD!), we'll see a much quicker creation of Premiums, and GT6 can banish this issue. One can hope

Let's hope so. The standard cars look to be the single biggest critiscism of GT5 as of yet. They should prioritise fixing this issue for GT6.

 

[ChUnKieBaLLz]

Mass recruitment of quality, experienced staff on the sort of scale PD required to finish 1000 cars for the release is a near impossible task. This is an assumption I know but, I think PD aren't willing to take on fresh graduates/trainees to work on one of the biggest franchises in console gaming.

Maybe that's what PD should do, hook up internships around the world to hire the best and brightest post-secondary students to work at PD for four months to a year. This way, PD can get more workers without having to pay as much as full-timer, and use this opportunity to scout out young talent. Also, because these are only temporary positions, if they under-perform, they'll be gone in 4 months. If PD finds someone that's a perfect fit for the company, then hire him/her back for full-time after finishing studies. Win-Win situation.

If PD ever have job postings at my University, I would apply to all the jobs even if the contract states that PD will only provide food and accommodations and no monetary wage.

 

[Dravonic]

Your whole posts consists of making assumptions and stating them as fact and using the logic that because it was, that's how it had to be.

For instance you keep saying we have to know PD had limited resources... well sure they don't have all the money in the whole world, but if they need more money, they can ask and quite likely get approved. Businesses like this are not magic fairly world where you are told $58 mill not a penny more go!

And it's hard to find talented modelers? Have you noticed the economy lately? Even in Japan people are hurting for jobs. Sure there aren't a limiltless supply of them, but an office of 140 surely isn't using up all there are available even considering other companies wanting the same talent.

Sorry what we have here is a big defense post that basically deflects blame through faulty logic of that's how it had to be because that's how it was.

Have you considered that maybe the 80 millions dollars was already too much? That they kept asking for more up to the point someone said "no"? 80 millions is already an astronomical budget. I can't really understand how can anyone think they should have spent more.

And the problem with hiring more people is you can't just hire anyone. Specially when we are talking about modelers to model the most accurate and detailed cars the gaming industry ever saw. We are not talking about hiring average joes, but very talented people with experience. Believe it or not, those are very hard to find. They tend to be hired by someone else already.

Don't think I entirely agree with DoctorFouad though. It's quite hard, if not impossible, to actually know what went on inside PD's building those 6 years but it really looks like PD screwed up somewhat. They took a very long time to develop the game and judging from what I saw up until now, nothing appears to justify this long development time. The whole confusion of features being thrown in and broken promises looks like a by-product of poor planing to me. Looks like they never had a definite plan of what GT5 should be. Not surprisingly, they took two steps forward one step back, delaying GT5 for longer than normal.

 

[PirateThom]

I definitely think lack of direction has been the game's biggest issue.

Polyphony Digital do amazing work, but I think they sometimes go off on weird tangents. Kazunori Yamauchi obviously loves what he does and it's hard to not be swept up in his passion, but there's times I think he let's his passion for driving get in the way of his development strategy for Gran Turismo... and the catch 22 is that his passion for driving is why Gran Turismo turns out so good. I think he'd need someone to just even out his passion with a sensible approach. I'm not suggesting Sony fire someone into PD's offices to stomp around with a whip, by the way, but someone to say "is this a good idea?" and offer alternatives.

I'd lean on the side of 140 highly skilled employees is preferable to x amount of discount modelers, even if it takes longer.

 

[Devedander]

Indeed. However, the points he was making, his logic, made a clear and valid argument. It's quite negative to act defensive and accuse the other of 'deflecting blame' through 'faulty logic', in a constructive argument though. You're better than that. 👎

Actually the entire point is they weren't clear and valid arguments. They were clear assumptions said to be factual.

He makes some statements that are possibly and even likely true, then turns them into absolute facts.

Again, just because the reasons you put forth are plausible, doesn't mean that's how it actually went down.

For instance the reason PD didn't hire more coders? Cost and availability?

It's quite possible that PD simply couldn't get more money or that there were not more available designers, but it's also possible KY is so anal he has won't hire a bigger squad for fear of loosing his micromanagement. Perhaps he is just a bad project manager and didn't run the show well. Maybe he got stretched so thin turning GT from a game into a franchise his goals became too many and too disparet to maintain focus on the one we are focused on.

See what I am saying?

He didn't make a logical evaluation of why things happened, he just looked at what happened, made up a set of reasons why and then said that we need to see that those reasons are true.

The problem is you can't ask someone to see those reasons are true because the fact is those reasons only MAY be true. It could be any number of other reasons or combinations of reasons and not at all what he says.

What he has done is looked at the final result and guessed a process to arrive there, the problem with that is that, on it's own, it's far from enough to make a claim of factuality.

As I pointed out, it's a big defense post. He has made assumptions bout how and why things happened in such a way as to provide as much defection of blame for PD and KY (ie the factors that lead to this were not their fault, but just the circumstances of the world) and then pegged them all as fact.

That's what I was getting at.

Have you considered that maybe the 80 millions dollars was already too much? That they kept asking for more up to the point someone said "no"? 80 millions is already an astronomical budget. I can't really understand how can anyone think they should have spent more.

And the problem with hiring more people is you can't just hire anyone. Specially when we are talking about modelers to model the most accurate and detailed cars the gaming industry ever saw. We are not talking about hiring average joes, but very talented people with experience. Believe it or not, those are very hard to find. They tend to be hired by someone else already.

Don't think I entirely agree with DoctorFouad though. It's quite hard, if not impossible, to actually know what went on inside PD's building those 6 years but it really looks like PD screwed up somewhat. They took a very long time to develop the game and judging from what I saw up until now, nothing appears to justify this long development time. The whole confusion of features being thrown in and broken promises looks like a by-product of poor planing to me. Looks like they never had a definite plan of what GT5 should be. Not surprisingly, they took two steps forward one step back, delaying GT5 for longer than normal.

Now, as I said, it's not that what he has said is impossible, it's that he has chosen all the most protective posibillities and stated them as fact.

Maybe they couldn't get more money? Sure, also maybe they could have but KY chose to run the show differently and simply didn't spend more money. That's why you can't argue "You have to know they had limited funds". No you don't have to know that, you have to know that one possible explanation was limited funds.

You have to know talented modelers are hard to come by! No you don't have to know that either... it's possible there was a drought, but honestly right now there are more talented people hurting for work than ever, even in Japan and it's not like modeling game assets is something that has to be done locally, it's just as easily done remotely (and probably was). Furthermore you don't even know what the process used was. We have some amature modelers on the forums that take hours to crank out a few car bodies, but it's entirely possible the process is highly automated now, they bring in laser scanners for both interior and exterior, shoot the cars and import them.

Heck I know contracters than can bring in a lazer eye thing, set it in four positions in a room and have a 3D render of the room and all furniture to a pretty high level of detail in a few hours. Sure you have to work harder on the intricacies of a car, but it's entirely possible it's just a turnkey operation by now.

That's what I am getting at... just choosing what sounds best and suits your agenda and stating it as fact doen't cut it.

I'd lean on the side of 140 highly skilled employees is preferable to x amount of discount modelers, even if it takes longer.

This is what's called a false dichotomy. It's a choice between two extremes implied to be the only options with no middle ground. It's like "I would rather have my hand cut off than die!" while ignoring that medication could cure the infection in your hand and thus you keep your hand and also don't die.

If we assume the only choice is 140 highly skilled modelers and a bunch of crap ones AND we assume the project managers goal is the same as ours (model all 1000 cars to hyper accuracy this generation, then we can make the choice for 140 skilled modelers.

But if you look at reality, we don't know those are the only two options, and realistically there is probably a lot of middle ground. There are probably many more highly sikilled modelers out there available, and even lesser ones could have their work gone over the by the higher skilled ones to ensure that their rough edges got smoothed out.

A lot of logical flaws pop up in these forums and I keep trying to point them out, but there is no end...

 

[Spagetti69]

Spot on D, too many people assuming facts and posting as such gets us nowhere.
Truth is we will probably never know what happened or PD themselves could put out smokescreen.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Right that is it, i'm going to be very disappointed now if I can't get my Lamborghinis, Mclarens, RUFs etc. in Rosso Corsa. I remember I used to do this on GT5, buy all the cars in the same colour. Whilst it made navigating the garage screen a pain, I think all the cars suited it I want the option to respray a car any colour I like. To make up for the lack of a livery editor.

Eh, I know what you mean; well over half my cars in Prologue are blue. It does seem odd to not have some kind of paint/livery editor; I had the ability to pick any RGB colour for my car in NFS3 on the PC back before 2000.

I find cockpit view far easier to bumper cam, because you get at least some visual feedback. I feel if i'm using a small monitor with a wheel, bumper cam is the way to go. But i'll be essentially learning to drive/race all over again if the feedback isn't sufficient.

I think it depends on the wheel; the DFPro had some seriously odd FFB in GT4, making drifting successfully kind of a pain. FF cars were leaps and bounds improved though; that is still a huge thorn in my side with PD, the utter woodeness and unfair handicap FF cars have, specifically in straight-line performance compared to their real-life counterparts. Prologue seems to improve things on all fronts though, which is encouraging for the full game.

Agreed As Devedander pointed out, a team of 100 modellers (Which whilst larger, isn't radically more than they already have) working on cars could get all of those standard cars up to premium within 4 years. But if you remember all the duplicate cars that were in GT4 and GTPSP, the number is closer to 600 than 800 to be fair.

Indeed 👍. The current rough estimate has their modelers at roughly 40 or so, right? 100 is 2.5 times the size, so I think it would definitely be possible to completely upgrade the 800 to Premium status, especially as you said, there's a lot of duplicates that bring that number down to about 600.

Mass recruitment of quality, experienced staff on the sort of scale PD required to finish 1000 cars for the release is a near impossible task. This is an assumption I know but, I think PD aren't willing to take on fresh graduates/trainees to work on one of the biggest franchises in console gaming.

I don't think it's a huge jump to entertain the idea that Dev pointed out that Kaz is very much a micro-manager. This could be why they haven't grown their modeler ranks; he is regularly referred to as a perfectionist, after all. Nothing wrong with that of course, because we do get some astounding quality. Though really, taking on fresh grads is probably an ideal option; train them to do things the PD way; any particular habits they may have developed working at other places won't get in the way!

PD are lucky to have the financial backing from Sony. But this does not mean they can 'Spend spend spend'. They have to keep to a business model, like any other developer. I already expressed my view that GTPSP was a project born to help keep the funding channels open for GT5, nothing more.

Never thought about PSP that way, makes sense 👍

Let's hope so. The standard cars look to be the single biggest critiscism of GT5 as of yet. They should prioritise fixing this issue for GT6.

As far as I'm concerned, it's the only semi-justifiable criticism for the general gaming population. I mean, I have other ones, but I'm an overly-critical grumpy fan who's watched the series progress since '98 .

Maybe that's what PD should do, hook up internships around the world to hire the best and brightest post-secondary students to work at PD for four months to a year. This way, PD can get more workers without having to pay as much as full-timer, and use this opportunity to scout out young talent. Also, because these are only temporary positions, if they under-perform, they'll be gone in 4 months. If PD finds someone that's a perfect fit for the company, then hire him/her back for full-time after finishing studies. Win-Win situation.

If PD ever have job postings at my University, I would apply to all the jobs even if the contract states that PD will only provide food and accommodations and no monetary wage.

I would be all over that as well 👍

Don't think I entirely agree with DoctorFouad though. It's quite hard, if not impossible, to actually know what went on inside PD's building those 6 years but it really looks like PD screwed up somewhat. They took a very long time to develop the game and judging from what I saw up until now, nothing appears to justify this long development time. The whole confusion of features being thrown in and broken promises looks like a by-product of poor planing to me. Looks like they never had a definite plan of what GT5 should be. Not surprisingly, they took two steps forward one step back, delaying GT5 for longer than normal.

This sums it up pretty good for me too. A lot of stuff we've seen looks fantastic... but not really 6 years fantastic, at least to me. And there's a big scattershot of new features, but none seem incredibly fleshed out; we get a kart, a token WRC mention (when really, we haven't seen anything different with the rally cars since GT2), things like that. Someone made the comparison of Kaz being a kid at a candy store; grabbing whatever catches his eye, but come time for checkout, he just can't take it all, and then it's that heart-wrenching time of picking and choosing what to keep. That's such an apt analogy. I still feel that his passion for all things automotive is his greatest asset, but he needs someone installed above him to keep all the ambitions in check. His eyes need to learn to match up with his stomach

 

[Devedander]

This sums it up pretty good for me too. A lot of stuff we've seen looks fantastic... but not really 6 years fantastic, at least to me. And there's a big scattershot of new features, but none seem incredibly fleshed out; we get a kart, a token WRC mention (when really, we haven't seen anything different with the rally cars since GT2), things like that. Someone made the comparison of Kaz being a kid at a candy store; grabbing whatever catches his eye, but come time for checkout, he just can't take it all, and then it's that heart-wrenching time of picking and choosing what to keep. That's such an apt analogy. I still feel that his passion for all things automotive is his greatest asset, but he needs someone installed above him to keep all the ambitions in check. His eyes need to learn to match up with his stomach

Absolutely... he did great things with the first few GTs but I think it's started to get beyond what he can do in his role alone. I think he needs to relinquish some of the reigns, get some good project management going and deligate some responsbility.

Unfortunately that means he is farther from the final product and that always means it's possible the final product suffers from it.

But I think it's pretty clear the final prduct is suffering in this instance from the kid in the candy store approach. Sometimes you gotta make the hard choice for the lesser of two evils and give up some control so that you don't end up smothering your own hard work.

 

[CoolColJ]

Standards in action - first Time I've seen this vid
Some of them do have cockpits

 

[CTznOfTime]

"Standard cars with Cockpit" ??!!

I feel a 50 page jump in this thread

You just set the jungle on fire with your post

 

[McLaren]

"Standard cars with Cockpit" ??!!

I feel a 50 page jump in this thread

You just set the jungle on fire with your post

You guys don't bother checking the upload dates of these videos, do you?

 

[Marky264]

Standards in action - first Time I've seen this vid
Some of them do have cockpits

Urmmm Fail... 👎

 

[lukeconnelly]

Give it about 10 minutes then comes the 50 page jump.