Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[Gt5anticip8r]

i smell a stinkin troll

Then maybe you need to get your nose checked. Or is it too far up PD's behind? (Sorry to be disrepectful to PD, but people like this warrant it). You do realise that posting a message screaming 'Troll!' and saying nothing constructive sort of....makes you a troll aswell?

Almost every game (race) has a chase cam, call them unrealistic too.

Okay they're unrealistic. Was that supposed to be a trick question? NFS Shift and Forza 3 had cockpit views and it added massively to the immersion of the game. Hope you understand I'm not critising GT for having a chase/roof cam, I'm just unhappy about having to use it in place of cockpit cams.

I think he makes a very valid point. Some people simply do not like criticism aimed at PD WHATSOEVER, even when it is warranted. They are not perfect, they have flaws just like we all do and immediately screaming 'troll' whenever someone criticises something about PD or GT5 specifically, seems to lend to the old adage "methinks the lady doth protest too much"

100% true. I love the GT series, but I do acknowledge that it has flaws. Some of these fanboys? By constantly screaming 'troll!' at people who make valid points, these sites get more and more infested by the fanboys.

 

[freshseth83]

GT5 will have around 200 cars with cockpit cam. That's more than NFS Shift and almost up there with Forza. The difference is that in Forza you get 8 cars on track. And you can't see details of the insides of cars you race against in gameplay. In GT5 you can peer through the windows and see the interior of the cars. Hood cam is the most realistic IMO. If you use a steering wheel it's like the TV is your windscreen and the hood view is you're hood, your chair and wheel are your own 'cockpit' in your room!

 

[Gt5anticip8r]

GT5 will have around 200 cars with cockpit cam. That's more than NFS Shift and almost up there with Forza. The difference is that in Forza you get 8 cars on track. And you can't see details of the insides of cars you race against in gameplay. In GT5 you can peer through the windows and see the interior of the cars. Hood cam is the most realistic IMO. If you use a steering wheel it's like the TV is your windscreen and the hood view is you're hood, your chair and wheel are your own 'cockpit' in your room!

Yeah I know what you mean, but surely you agree that it's quite a bummer that all cars won't have cockpit views? I know, I know, time constraints, staff limitations etc. Still, fact is...it is unfortunate. Yep, I had to make do with the roof cam in GT4 when using my DFP

 

[Griffith500]

Not likely.

The 6mo figure is what you would call bull s**t buried in truth. Yes, it could take 6mo...but it doesn't in the sense that you think. Let me explain;

These cars are manufactured digitally, no? All these cars were almost certainly done in batches and those batches took 6mo to scan the full scale, get the legal paperwork in order, plug it into a computer, and who knows what else.

Now, if you were to render 1 car...yes, it would take 6mo. But if you render a batch of cars, say all the Toyotas, it would also take 6mo. Since they're done in a batch, you can say each one took 6 months and leave out the part about all of them being started and finished on a certain date. This is typical manufacturing jargon.

If any of you have taken a university level cost accounting class, you'll see what I'm on about.

You do not scan obtain the license for 1 car, then scan that one car, then do whatever to render it in GT5, and then repeat the process over again...and again...and again...1000 times.

That would take nearly 500 years to complete [figure in vacations, maternity, death, etc].

1000 cars X 6mo X 30 days = 180,000 days.
180,000 days X (1yr/365days) = 493 years.

Think about that.

I understand how parallel tasks work. Or whatever the correct jargon is...
I'm also well aware that there's more to it than creating a mesh.

I meant geometric average in the sense that one sums how long it took to do all cars, and divides that by how many cars there are. Not the best measure, as you said yourself, since it doesn't actually tell you anything, other than how many cars you have, and how long it took to do them all...

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

Yeah I know what you mean, but surely you agree that it's quite a bummer that all cars won't have cockpit views? I know, I know, time constraints, staff limitations etc. Still, fact is...it is unfortunate. Yep, I had to make do with the roof cam in GT4 when using my DFP

Not for me. What I love doing on racing games is hotlapping and racing online. Now neither of these are suitable in my opinion when using cockpit view. It doesn't matter how realistic racing games are you will never get the sense of awareness of those around you compared to real life. Now when racing online you need to be aware of those around you otherwise you cause chaos. The only time I might use cockpit view is when racing offline.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

While its still difficult not to feel shortchanged on this issue, I'm beginning to wonder if it is going to be the big disappointment a lot of us percieve it to be.

GT5 is such a huge leap forward and changed in so many ways, in reality it could turn out to be a very minor deterrent.

Harkening back to the change from GT3 to GT4, 4 was so different in so many ways it took me quite a while to adjust to it, and begin to pick up the new vision and direction Kaz was presenting. Once I did it became the most immersive racing game I have ever played, and I've played a lot of them.

I think this adjustment will be even bigger, and maybe more difficult, since my perspective is so jaded with GT4, the influence of current gen console racing games, and 5+ yrs of expectational imaginings.

Soon we will be able to experience the new concepts of GT5 Kaz has prepared and see if we can embrace and adjust to it.

I can't help but believe, in spite of this issue, it will be another truly great GT.

 

[Gt5anticip8r]

I agree with some of the people on this thread - it is kind of displeasing, the way PD is still hardly even mentioning Standard cars. No new vids, screenshots or anything. From a consumer point of view, what will the average guy on the street think when he buys a copy, only to find that 60% of the content is below par with what was pomoted/advertised? By the way, I say 60% (not 80) because the tracks, customization, etc will not be below par.

 

[Gt5anticip8r]

While its still difficult not to feel shortchanged on this issue, I'm beginning to wonder if it is going to be the big disappointment a lot of us percieve it to be.

GT5 is such a huge leap forward and changed in so many ways, in reality it could turn out to be a very minor deterrent.

Harkening back to the change from GT3 to GT4, 4 was so different in so many ways it took me quite a while to adjust to it, and begin to pick up the new vision and direction Kaz was presenting. Once I did it became the most immersive racing game I have ever played, and I've played a lot of them.

I think this adjustment will be even bigger, and maybe more difficult, since my perspective is so jaded with GT4, the influence of current gen console racing games, and 5+ yrs of expectational imaginings.

Soon we will be able to experience the new concepts of GT5 Kaz has prepared and see if we can embrace and adjust to it.

I can't help but believe, in spite of this issue, it will be another truly great GT.

It will be a deterrent, hopefully a minor one. The loads of other features would probably overshadow this shortcoming.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

It will be a deterrent, hopefully a minor one. The loads of other features would probably overshadow this shortcoming.

Its a "catch 22" for me.

While it's obvious to percieve the Standard/Premium deal as "not a good thing", "sub standard", "problematic", "what the h*** they been doing for almost 6 yrs.", etc.,etc.,etc.,etc.,etc.,etc.

It is also very difficult for me, even in light of this, to write off Kaz as a just another "Chucklehead developer", knowing his prior passion, dedication, and judgement, which has made GT the great series that it is.

 

[Gt5anticip8r]

Its a "catch 22" for me.

While it's obvious to percieve the Standard/Premium deal as "not a good thing", "sub standard", "problematic", "what the h*** they been doing for almost 6 yrs.", etc.,etc.,etc.,etc.,etc.,etc.

It is also very difficult for me, even in light of this, to write off Kaz as a just another "Chucklehead developer", knowing his prior passion, dedication, and judgement, which has made GT the great series that it is.

The thing with Kaz is, whenever he talks about the game, it sounds as though he genuinely cares about cars and making the game as good as physically possible. Even when you play any version of GT, you can tell that it's been created by someone who actually gave a damn about motor racing. Whereas most games these days, not just racing, feel like they've been designed by accountants.

 

[Nero9]

GT5 is shaping up to be a great game, now that spray painting and body kits are in, but the last time I checked 'real' drivers race 'real' cars from inside. They don't sit on the roof of their car while racing, and they sure as hell don't run after it from about 15m behind. Just thought this matters, since GT5 is The 'Real' Driving Simulator.

Go troll somewhere else.

 

[Gt5anticip8r]

Go troll somewhere else.

Little fanboy, do you realise that posting pointless, inane messages like this actually makes you make you a troll? Ironic, isn't it? Tell me, did you even bother reading and understanding the title of this thread before screaming 'troll,troll!' ? Or are you 4 years old and therefore unable to do so? You are obviously a little kid who can't handle his beloved game being criticised. It's actually kind of sad that there so many like you infiltrating these forums and preventing mature people from having constructive discussions.

For the record, I have owned every iteration of GT5 since probably before you were born. I have also owned PlayStation, PlayStation One, Playstation 2, PlayStation 3, and now a PlayStation 3 Slim. I have a 46'' LED HD TV, along with a DFP. The tv, wheel and even the Ps3 were all purchased mainly for GT5. I have played and owned hundreds of racing games on several platforms.

I know what I am talking about. As a loyal supporter of Sony and PD, I will constructively criticise them wherever I feel necessary. Call me a troll, and I will humiliate you. So long fanboy.

 

[Nero9]

I'm not intrested in what you own, nor are you in what i own.
For the record, i actually played some games that competed with GT and enjoyed them to. 💡
Another person who loves to jump to conclusions the second he can.

GT had the Chase Cam and the Bumper Cam since the first GT. They are like the Fictional Tracks. GT is not GT without these views and/or the Fictional tracks. And 80% percent of the cars don't even have a cockpit view.
Oh lets have a look at GT's first competitor, Sega GT.
Does it have these views? YES IT DOES!
Let's look at Forza. Does it have these views? YES IT DOES!
Do most sims have these views? YES THEY DO!
Now, as i said...

Go troll somewhere else.

You sound familiar...

 

[Lucas]

i smell a stinkin troll

I smell a valid point coming from that "troll". And calling someone who makes valid points a "troll" just because you don't like what he's saying about PD makes you a fanboy.

Then maybe you need to get your nose checked. Or is it too far up PD's behind? (Sorry to be disrepectful to PD, but people like this warrant it). You do realise that posting a message screaming 'Troll!' and saying nothing constructive sort of....makes you a troll aswell?

+1


By the way, I don't think GT5 is shaping to be a great game. I believe it is already a great game. It has far surpassed my expectations, to be honest.

 

[sems4arsenal]

I'm not intrested in what you own, nor are you in what i own.
For the record, i actually played some games that competed with GT and enjoyed them to. 💡
Another person who loves to jump to conclusions the second he can.

GT had the Chase Cam and the Bumper Cam since the first GT. They are like the Fictional Tracks. GT is not GT without these views and/or the Fictional tracks. And 80% percent of the cars don't even have a cockpit view.
Oh lets have a look at GT's first competitor, Sega GT.
Does it have these views? YES IT DOES!
Let's look at Forza. Does it have these views? YES IT DOES!
Do most sims have these views? YES THEY DO!
Now, as i said...

Go troll somewhere else.

You sound familiar...

Now that you mention it,GT5 with 16 cars ,damage,skidmarks and say reverse lights will feel strange and ungtlike.Man PD put everything missing in one game .Can't wait.

 

[Gt5anticip8r]

I'm not intrested in what you own, nor are you in what i own.
For the record, i actually played some games that competed with GT and enjoyed them to. 💡
Another person who loves to jump to conclusions the second he can.

GT had the Chase Cam and the Bumper Cam since the first GT. They are like the Fictional Tracks. GT is not GT without these views and/or the Fictional tracks. And 80% percent of the cars don't even have a cockpit view.
Oh lets have a look at GT's first competitor, Sega GT.
Does it have these views? YES IT DOES!
Let's look at Forza. Does it have these views? YES IT DOES!
Do most sims have these views? YES THEY DO!
Now, as i said...

Go troll somewhere else.

You sound familiar...

That's the reason you accuse me of being a troll? Because I don't like a particular camera view? Dear lord. Anyway, if you read my later post, I made it clear that I do NOT hate the chase and roof cams by themselves...I just don't like having to use them instead of a cockpit cam. And PD obviously felt it was necessary in the real driving simulator, else they wouldn't have added it after so many versions without it. Not once did I say 'All games that have chase and roof cams suck'.

At least understand people's posts before calling them trolls. Jumping to conclusions? You're the one who totally skewed my words and then screamed troll.

 

[Gt5anticip8r]

I smell a valid point coming from that "troll". And calling someone who makes valid points a "troll" just because you don't like what he's saying about PD makes you a fanboy.



+1


By the way, I don't think GT5 is shaping to be a great game. I believe it is already a great game. It has far surpassed my expectations, to be honest.

Thanks bro, and yeah I agree. Nevermind standard vs. premium cars, this game is gonna be one hell of a blast. I honestly didn't expect a track creator and dynamic weather!

 

[Nero9]

That's the reason you accuse me of being a troll? Because I don't like a particular camera view? Dear lord.

Let's take a good look at your post.

but the last time I checked 'real' drivers race 'real' cars from inside. They don't sit on the roof of their car while racing, and they sure as hell don't run after it from about 15m behind. Just thought this matters, since GT5 is The 'Real' Driving Simulator.

That sure as hell sounded trollish to me.

Jumping to conclusions? You're the one who totally skewed my words and then screamed troll.

Contradiction.

 

[trk29]

Just to throw this out there but I can't wait to drive a F1 car in the rain hopeully there will be some sick rooster tails shooting up from the front tires!!!

 

[eSZee]

I'm not intrested in what you own, nor are you in what i own.
For the record, i actually played some games that competed with GT and enjoyed them to. 💡
Another person who loves to jump to conclusions the second he can.

GT had the Chase Cam and the Bumper Cam since the first GT. They are like the Fictional Tracks. GT is not GT without these views and/or the Fictional tracks. And 80% percent of the cars don't even have a cockpit view.
Oh lets have a look at GT's first competitor, Sega GT.
Does it have these views? YES IT DOES!
Let's look at Forza. Does it have these views? YES IT DOES!
Do most sims have these views? YES THEY DO!
Now, as i said...

Go troll somewhere else.

You sound familiar...

I think you misunderstood his point. He wasn't saying that GT5 isn't a SIM cause it has chase and roof view. He was saying it isn't cause most of the cars don;t have cockpit view.

 

[Nero9]

I think you misunderstood his point. He wasn't saying that GT5 isn't a SIM cause it has chase and roof view. He was saying it isn't cause most of the cars don;t have cockpit view.

Very well then. Simple misunderstanding.

 

[Gt5anticip8r]

Very well then. Simple
misunderstanding.
Today 4:53 PM

Yep, no harm done. Thanks dave_sz

 

[VXR]

I actually realised a positive earlier; if it means I can have an E46 CSL in a physics engine that isn't GT4's, then I'm a happy man.

 

[Scaff]

GT5 is shaping up to be a great game, now that spray painting and body kits are in, but the last time I checked 'real' drivers race 'real' cars from inside. They don't sit on the roof of their car while racing, and they sure as hell don't run after it from about 15m behind. Just thought this matters, since GT5 is The 'Real' Driving Simulator.

Very true, but interestingly enough I have know a number of professional drivers who when they are racing on sims (and arcade driving games for that matter) use an external view.

The reason they give is that computer/console sims do not provide the degree of peripheral vision you should have and that an external cam, while unrealistic in positioning gives a more accurate simulation of the drivers awareness of the surrounding cars

Certainly a perspective worth taking on-board.


Scaff

 

[MadduckUK]

Very true, but interestingly enough I have know a number of professional drivers who when they are racing on sims (and arcade driving games for that matter) use an external view.

The reason they give is that computer/console sims do not provide the degree of peripheral vision you should have and that an external cam, while unrealistic in positioning gives a more accurate simulation of the drivers awareness of the surrounding cars

Certainly a perspective worth taking on-board.


Scaff

the ps move head tracking is going to be wonderful, isn't it?

 

[minihulkster]

the ps move head tracking is going to be wonderful, isn't it?

The head-tracking does not require the ps move, just the camera and a head.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

Very true, but interestingly enough I have know a number of professional drivers who when they are racing on sims (and arcade driving games for that matter) use an external view.

The reason they give is that computer/console sims do not provide the degree of peripheral vision you should have and that an external cam, while unrealistic in positioning gives a more accurate simulation of the drivers awareness of the surrounding cars

Certainly a perspective worth taking on-board.


Scaff

Now that is an excellent post and I kind of said something similiar earlier.

 

[Dravonic]

Very true, but interestingly enough I have know a number of professional drivers who when they are racing on sims (and arcade driving games for that matter) use an external view.

The reason they give is that computer/console sims do not provide the degree of peripheral vision you should have and that an external cam, while unrealistic in positioning gives a more accurate simulation of the drivers awareness of the surrounding cars

Certainly a perspective worth taking on-board.


Scaff

Wouldn't you agree though, that those cameras give drivers an unrealistic and even unfair advantage? While a race driver is able to use his peripheral vision in the real world, he still has to cope with limitations to the visibility the cockpit impose. While the other cameras have none.

It never bothered me much, but it's really starting to make me wonder after watching new rain footage. It wasn't in this thread but SolidSnakex pointed out how limited the visibility is while driving the citroen race car in the rain. You can barely see anything and you'll have a hard time while driving other cars too. While the other cameras don't show any kind of visibility limitations.

It's really getting to the point where people driving in cockpit view will crash or be forced to severely slow down because they can't see anything, as a racing driver would in the real world, but anyone driving in other cameras won't suffer any kind of weather visibility hindrance. Very unfair.

Sure, this will be a self imposed problem since you can just choose not to drive in the cockpit view, but I really wish they give us the option to create an online room where the use of cockpit view is forced. This way, people who wish to experience more realistic weather driving will have a way to do so without being double crossed by people driving in unrealistic cameras.

 

[MadduckUK]

There is always the GTR way of forcing people to use cockpit view as a toggle in the room options. We need a touch more info to see where standard cars would stand on that though, we will see.

 

[Griffith500]

Wouldn't you agree though, that those cameras give drivers an unrealistic and even unfair advantage? While a race driver is able to use his peripheral vision in the real world, he still has to cope with limitations to the visibility the cockpit impose. While the other cameras have none.

It never bothered me much, but it's really starting to make me wonder after watching new rain footage. It wasn't in this thread but SolidSnakex pointed out how limited the visibility is while driving the citroen race car in the rain. You can barely see anything and you'll have a hard time while driving other cars too. While the other cameras don't show any kind of visibility limitations.

It's really getting to the point where people driving in cockpit view will crash or be forced to severely slow down because they can't see anything, as a racing driver would in the real world, but anyone driving in other cameras won't suffer any kind of weather visibility hindrance. Very unfair.

Sure, this will be a self imposed problem since you can just choose not to drive in the cockpit view, but I really wish they give us the option to create an online room where the use of cockpit view is forced. This way, people who wish to experience more realistic weather driving will have a way to do so without being double crossed by people driving in unrealistic cameras.

Your points are very valid, hopefully those sorts of regulations can be imposed in online races. It certainly help to filter out the Standards, for those that care about that.

The peripheral vision thing is one of my main bugbears with games. I'm already constraining my viewpoint massively by interacting through a flaming screen (I'm hardcore) which, at best, only occupies about 90° of my vision; being in a car gives you the full (nigh on) 180° that most people have; except that using cockpit view in a game means you're left with the tiniest slit to see out of. Totally useless, and that Citroen has a terrible cockpit for visibility anyway. Luckily we can (subconsciously) prioritise our vision, and ignore the bits that don't matter so that we are a bit sharper, focusing on that little slit that does matter.

Face tracking is a big boon for me, since I get a bit messed up and disoriented by look left / right buttons, but only if it works outside of the cockpit, too, if only because of the standard cars.


Making all the views consistent, in terms of effects etc., will probably go some way to negating any perceived advantages (although, I personally believe bumper cam is an advantage in itself; I can certainly drive quicker with it!)