Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"
- Thread starter LP670-4 SV
- 10,183 comments
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- 389
- Killinator
- BODKIllinator
This is you right, not some other Griffith ive mistaken you for,
That post certainly implies you have more than a slight suspicion of what was coming,
And I don't mean the standards as a concept are completely negative, more the way in which they have been implemented(or is it, their lack of implementation).
shirakawaa
Premium
- 5,034
- GTP_shirakawaa
- 389
- Killinator
- BODKIllinator
Looks better than the X1
Don't worry Tornado, I'm sure you'l be forced to use many of the standards in licence test, manufacturer races and much, much more.
- 8,725
Their implementation is what it is - that's what we should be discussing, not whether the implementation should have happened at all. It could be a lot worse; that's what I was "expecting" (no, I did not foresee it with my crystal ball, nor did I travel through time to see it for myself; but I never said those things, either). Did you read my other posts, where I outlined the way in which I became "prepared" for this disappointment?
- 239
- Houston, TX
- walterjoe
- IAS EAGLE 5
I don't know about boxes but the 911's in GT don't handle all too well
I have to agree. A RUF CTR2 Yellowbird with a six axis or worse a PSP is basically like arm wrestling with a gorilla.
I do remember going down stairs in a cardboard box.
Bad crash ratings tho..
- 291
The standard cars don't bother me as I race in 3rd person I like to see my car on screen so I'm not concearned with cockpit view. I'm also nolonger concerned that we cant change rims on standard cars because it occured to me that most cars in the game come standard with alloy wheels anyways.
- 27,387
- Toronto
- NewAesthetic
- SlipZtrEm
*raises hand
Hell, even the people who are talking about re-purchasing some of their old GT4 favourites can't do that. I won't be able to re-create any of my old cars that had aftermarket (or, usually, inter-manufacturer-swapped) rims. As long as we can do the latter though... I can still have a Z32 with R34 rims, since they're both Premium
.Honestly, the fact Standards have less options present than GT4 is kind of a joke. I'd love to see someone who has the game take one out to see exactly what the limitations are though... can we get the carbon hood? Is the "some cars" clause in Race Mods code for "some Premiums"?
The apologists will surely rationalize any further drawbacks, but the Standards are a huge glaring target. I'm glad I'm still super-stoked about a bunch of the Premiums and the new tracks (and online).
- 389
- Killinator
- BODKIllinator
Standard cars rims cannot be changed.
We are discussing this,
This is a part of the standard cars implementation, no?
From reading your post I got the impression you generally prepared for most 'negative' things we've seen, they rarely seem to have disappointed you or had you lamenting their impact or lack thereof.
I didn't see where you stated how you actually prepared for this, just that you did prepare,
If you can accept it then thats a nice world you live in(although keeping up with the sound thread, perhaps your more invested in that side of the game, perhaps you have yet to be let down there or somewhere you actually care about)
I just expected more from standards, despite everything I was starting to think they would be something I could get along with, but they just seem to be getting worse and worse, the only thing saving them being a fantastic lighting engine.
Its one thing to tell a white lie about a game such as:
"highly realistic damage" or "every part is customisable"
But PD/Sony have done as little as possible to show us there little 'black sheep' feature,
We needed a leak to find this stuff out, I fear for standard cars if you can't even put new wheels on them.
- 8,725
*raises hand
Hell, even the people who are talking about re-purchasing some of their old GT4 favourites can't do that. I won't be able to re-create any of my old cars that had aftermarket (or, usually, inter-manufacturer-swapped) rims. As long as we can do the latter though... I can still have a Z32 with R34 rims, since they're both Premium
Honestly, the fact Standards have less options present than GT4 is kind of a joke. I'd love to see someone who has the game take one out to see exactly what the limitations are though... can we get the carbon hood? Is the "some cars" clause in Race Mods code for "some Premiums"?
The apologists will surely rationalize any further drawbacks, but the Standards are a huge glaring target. I'm glad I'm still super-stoked about a bunch of the Premiums and the new tracks (and online).
I'll miss those intra- / inter-manufacturer wheel swaps, too. This is why I'm "praying" for a "patch" at some point in the game's lifetime!
I doubt we'll see the carbon hood / bonnet, but it might be possible as a pure weight-reduction thing? I expect the aero kits could be similar, though it might cause problems not being able to see the mods themselves on the cars.
I've been wishing for such a full-feature demonstration of the Standards for some time now...
EDIT: Killinator, you've got me wrong. This is the thread for Standards vs. Premium, not "OMG we can't put wheels on standards!!" thread. I'd already played my part in that.
And PD haven't done "as little as possible" - if that were the case, we wouldn't have even known of the two tiers until the leaks.
The above is what I'd rather be discussing, not the evils of business, thanks.
- 40,921
You can think what you want, but the more I think about this specific issue the more it pisses me off. I'm probably the 3rd or 4th most critical member on this forum about the Standard cars, but I was always willing to give them a chance at the very least. I even made a topic a few months ago asking what prospective Standard cars people were looking forward to driving when the game came out.
But now that the game is done, it seems increasingly obvious that, for all of Kaz's posturing and promises about perfection and blah blah blah, PD simply did not care about 80% of the content in the game (and before anyone jumps on me for using "content" as a synonym for "cars," the track feature outlook doesn't look particularly rosy either from what I've read). I truly didn't expect much at all from the Standards, but I was completely willing to put up with them if they were as good as they were in GT4 but with the GT5 physics engine. I was worried how they would work in some of the game modes (like night races and Photomode), and I was biting my nails over whether PD would do the colossal BS they pulled in GTPSP, but that was really it.
I do know, however, that I certainly didn't expect PD to put so little effort into them that they are "worse" than they were back in 2004 (or 2001, for some of them). It certainly doesn't make me optimistic about the worries that I had about them months ago when all we had to go on was the Standard Cars video and what was in GTPSP (the night races, the ridiculous padding, the incorrect specifications, the Photomode usability).
It actually makes me curious what Griffith500 was thinking about when he says he expected something of even less effort, because I'm having a hard time imagining how much worse than they could actually be than how they seem to be in the final game. Maybe not using the same physics engine? Maybe they can't be used in certain events? Those are both entirely possible for all we know.
- 2,112
- xNEVER-ONEx
Agreed, also, imagine what gaming critics have to say when they realize that 80% of the cars are not even atleast at the current gen level. Its a shame, because sony can't reallly call this the ultimate driving simulator. Sure, its better than the competition, but thats just what it is, better, not the best.
- 8,725
Since you mentioned me specifically, I was "expecting" a complete lack of integration of any features as an absolute worst case scenario (i.e. GTPSP) and hoping for at least GT4-level of functionality.
As it stands, we've lost aftermarket wheels but gained extra tuning depth and still, just maybe, aero parts and painting.
- 389
- Killinator
- BODKIllinator
Just to note, my post wasn't to be taken seriously and was somewhat sarcastic, I totally empathise(sp) with your view as its close to my own.
@Griffith, I really dont know what to say other than that discussing wheel changes or lack thereof depending on a cars status(standard/premium) is, to me, discussing standard vs premium.
Fine PD gave us a few scraps of info but were never overly definitive even leading some to believe that standards were almost as good looking as GT5P cars,
And as this is a GT thread I, as you, certainly don't want to discuss any form of business if possible, but PD sure make it hard.
- 4,323
It's interesting you put it that way... I see it as a loose loose... you have no cockpit and even if you don't like cockpit... well you get to spend the whole race staring at the lower quality car up close and personal
Chikane_GTR
Premium
- 8,146
- Heaven
It's interesting you put it that way... I see it as a loose loose... you have no cockpit and even if you don't like cockpit... well you get to spend the whole race staring at the lower quality car up close and personal
yea and you cant even rotate the camera around in third person view.. to see those low quality cars from all sides
- 6
- fullysik911
No big deal. I race bumper view and my order of preference would be, better AI, physics, online and graphics. I think the experience of racing these 1000 cars and feeling the different characteristics of each is what its all about. I want a tight and balanced race whether im racing single player or online. Just my opinion.
Hello, long time listener, first time caller.
My thoughts on wheels:
Decisions like this are not made lightly and I believe they (PD) debated this feature. I can think of three reasons why this option was left out, asthetics, technical or negotiation.
1) asthetics:
A. The gt4 rims are not transperant, the gt5 ones are. This would require modelling of the brake calipers, discs, axle, suspension arms etc. This would be a lot of additional work.
B. If these parts could be added as some generic model it was likely this would clash with the asthetics of the car, differences in polycount would be quite obvious.
2) Technical.
It is possible that reaching the 60fps limit at fullHD was too difficult within the timeframe so the standard cars were deliberately included to reduce the overall polycount to improve the framerates. Adding highpoly wheels and suspension, brake parts would compromise this. If this is the case, I suspect that standard cars will be present as a large percentage in most races and that you will see more standards during rain and snow races.
3) Standard cars were deliberately made worse to make the premiums more prestegious.
Likely there was a lot of negotiating with car companies and to allow their cars to be destroyed in a video game with the new damage system, PD sweetened the deal by including their newest models as premiums. This is likely why we see so many uninteresting cars as premiums.
Someone said PD don't care. I'm sure they do, but they had a good reason for removing a feature.
My thoughts on wheels:
Decisions like this are not made lightly and I believe they (PD) debated this feature. I can think of three reasons why this option was left out, asthetics, technical or negotiation.
1) asthetics:
A. The gt4 rims are not transperant, the gt5 ones are. This would require modelling of the brake calipers, discs, axle, suspension arms etc. This would be a lot of additional work.
B. If these parts could be added as some generic model it was likely this would clash with the asthetics of the car, differences in polycount would be quite obvious.
2) Technical.
It is possible that reaching the 60fps limit at fullHD was too difficult within the timeframe so the standard cars were deliberately included to reduce the overall polycount to improve the framerates. Adding highpoly wheels and suspension, brake parts would compromise this. If this is the case, I suspect that standard cars will be present as a large percentage in most races and that you will see more standards during rain and snow races.
3) Standard cars were deliberately made worse to make the premiums more prestegious.
Likely there was a lot of negotiating with car companies and to allow their cars to be destroyed in a video game with the new damage system, PD sweetened the deal by including their newest models as premiums. This is likely why we see so many uninteresting cars as premiums.
Someone said PD don't care. I'm sure they do, but they had a good reason for removing a feature.
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- 378
I was reading some comments about that GT5 should have 300 premium cars instead of 200 + 800 standard cars.
Theres no sence about that, the whole idea of the standard cars is add more cars with minimal (to almost zero) work, so the 800 standard = 100+ premiums is incorrect.
Once more i say that Kazunori should have hired an external 3d model company to make the cars and Polyphony artists work only in the final touches and adding little detail here and there. I guess with that GT5 could have done in far less time with even more premium cars.
And before someone even mention quality, please look this videos, these are made by a 3d external modelling company and they dont have much to envy to a premium model, these are high quality models that would look even better under GT5 engine.
Theres no sence about that, the whole idea of the standard cars is add more cars with minimal (to almost zero) work, so the 800 standard = 100+ premiums is incorrect.
Once more i say that Kazunori should have hired an external 3d model company to make the cars and Polyphony artists work only in the final touches and adding little detail here and there. I guess with that GT5 could have done in far less time with even more premium cars.
And before someone even mention quality, please look this videos, these are made by a 3d external modelling company and they dont have much to envy to a premium model, these are high quality models that would look even better under GT5 engine.
I suspect they ran out of money or sony got tired of giving them more. It's the second most expensive game ever made.
Standart cars are not bothering me at all and no option to change rims for those cars as well and no cockpit view too.
I wont write a looooong post "why" tho, it's just my opinion. Which is:
1) Standart cars = nice cars, like every GT had = good.
2) Premium cars = even better cars and most of the my favorite cars will be premium ones = awesome.
Ppl who don't like standart cars thinks like that, i suppose:
1) Premium cars = good, like it should've been.
2) Standart cars = bad, they are not that good as a premium ones.
Someone may say that i just got low standarts and after 6 years all cars should've been premium ones, but i don't really care, i would've been happy even without a single premium car. ^^
I wont write a looooong post "why" tho, it's just my opinion. Which is:
1) Standart cars = nice cars, like every GT had = good.
2) Premium cars = even better cars and most of the my favorite cars will be premium ones = awesome.
Ppl who don't like standart cars thinks like that, i suppose:
1) Premium cars = good, like it should've been.
2) Standart cars = bad, they are not that good as a premium ones.
Someone may say that i just got low standarts and after 6 years all cars should've been premium ones, but i don't really care, i would've been happy even without a single premium car. ^^
McLaren
Premium
- 45,705
- Texas
Milky's Videos & Pictures are exactly what Turn10 should have released to show off just how much detail they really wanted to implement. He does an amazing job.
- 378
Lots of games employs more people than polyphony and they are not even close of costing 80 millions, plus those game are not almost already payed the development cost with a prologue edition.
Plus im thinking that probably releasing the game in less time with the help of a 3d external company could have been even more cheap than running Polyphony Digital for 6 years in a project.
Too bad they cant squeeze enough power of the 360 to use those models ingame
, i guess we will have to wait until Forza 5 (in the next gen) to see those models (with more detail) ingame, i dont thin Turn10 can make them work ingame in Forza 4 (unless the use it on the player car).And yes he´s videos are great!
- 4,323
Or they just use the GT4 rims as they were in GT4... isn't that what they are doing anyway for the wheels we DO have?
This would mean during player races you can't have a full grid of premium cars if mixing in some standards is required to keep frame rate up. That is assuming alternate rims even take more polygons (which I am not sure why they would) and if they did, a few hundred to make a rim is not likely to be the deal breaker in frame rate considering how much else is pushed on scren at once
Premiums run the gamut from very interesting cars to some really out there old beaters.
I am sure they did... I am leaning towards: They stuffed standards in late in teh game because they realized they weren't going to get a very big number of premiums done and since the standards were just filler anyway they dind't get much attnetion or special treatment. They got just enough to make them a driveable car to put in your garage.
- 5,700
- Edison NJ
- jdmking13
- Lucid killer 58
Dev what about the race spec it did not say you could not race mod a standard car it said some cars. why would they not let you switch rims but let you be able to make a standard car in to race spec something just does not add up.
