Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[Devedander]

Way to swing the pendulum, dude. "If I can only have steak every 5th dinner, then why even bother to give me ham, and chicken, and hamburger, and fish for the rest of the meals? Why not just feed me Kraft Dinner the rest of the time?"

I believe your analogy is addressing the wrong issue.

It's more like "If the wine is the only important part of a meal, why bother giving me steak 1/5 of the time, why not just give me mac and cheese every time as long as I have good wine?"

The follow up to which is of course, wine isn't the only improtant thing... if it were, the host would have been stupid for wasting so much timme prepairing each steak for the 1/5th of the time that you got steak.

 

[Robin]

There is also the possibility that the cars in GT4 were dumbed down so that the PS2 hardware could run the game and that the full LOD model will be used in GT5. I state this as a possibility because Kaz said that they have been modeling premium cars to be on a LOD that would be suitable for the PS4.

There is that possibility but we don't know to what extent PD 'future proofed' the GT4 models. Also remember that some of the GT4 lineup were uprated ports from GT3 so we were already working off even lower poly models. This might explain why some Standard Cars look worse than others.

OK looking Standard Cars - From initial GT4 built models.
Poorer looking Standard Cars - From initial GT3 built models.

If PD are going to always take the future proofing route they should have stated off with cars done to CGI film levels all with interiors years ago (lets say around the start of the PS2 era) with a supercomputer then dub them down as required and your sorted till GT7!

Clearly this planning ahead to save time doesn't seem to be working as development between games seems to be getting even longer! Plus you end up with this half gimped game scenario for ever! Next time there will be better looking GT6 models than others and the cycle will never end!

Robin.

 

[Spagetti69]

The future proofing didn't really work did it.

 

[Devedander]

how does it work? (do we know?)

Yes we do. It would do you well to read up a bit in this very thread rather than ask questions we already covered as if they are adding some new view point (not being snotty about it, just saying you aren't the first to do it and it's a good idea).

i have a standard car.. what happens if i smash into a barrier with 200 mph? nothing? does it get "invisible" dents and breaks down by showing a few scratches on the side?

Minor scratches and dents get drawn on.

can i even drive premium cars together with standard? e.g. join a race in my nissan GT-R premium thingie, and race against some crappy standard lowres bugatti veyron? ()

Yes, a video of premiums and standards on the same track has already been posted.

OR is the dmg feature only enabled in a few races ect. that would then be locked for premium cars?
(sure maybe i could find it by reading through these thousands of posts but.. honestly, i cba )

Well I really shouldn't be bothered answering for you then... but I already typed it, so why not do some homework now on your own and read up a bit...

 

[Tornado]

Whats wrong with it? it doesn't look bad for a GT4 car.

Yeah, it's a standard. Na just kidding. It's from GTPSP and it has been lowered on its LOD to fit the hardware. I don't understand how posting this pic proved his point either.

OK yes it is in GT5, but thats not GT5 so what is your point showing a image of another game saying its not good enough?

save the image till we find a image o the same car in GT5! then we shall compare!

I wasn't talking about looks:

So long as they drove accurately to real life

Which that specific car does not come even close to doing. Or rather, it almost certainly won't in the final game. That is what I was talking about.

Are you (and possibly others) now claiming that Kaz's new physics model "Just input the key measurements, and it will drive like in real life" is flawed?

No.

The future proofing didn't really work did it.

Well, the original intention was probably to have a GT game near or at launch of the PS3. A sort of Gran Turismo 4: Champion Edition, if you will (see the Vision Gran Turismo trailer, for example). They probably would have been perfectly fine then. However, then GT:HD got canceled, so here we are today.

 

[Strittan]

Yes, this has been done with 80% of the roster. It would have required the Impreza to have to be remodeled from scratch. Early on in development they realized it would not be time efficient to model every car to premium spec. I did the math on these forums a couple months ago and calculated that is would take about 8-9 years to model 800 cars. There may be some other cars may have been modeled to a high "standard" degree, while other may be straight from gt4.

Sorry for quoting you rather late.

Now, what on earth are you talking about? The 800+ standard cars are directly taken from GT4, without doing anything to the 3D models. They are GT4 cars.

The '99 Impreza Rally Car is a different story though, because it is clearly made from scratch, and nothing they took from GT4. It looks on par with every other Premium car. But only because you can't see the entire interior in that early GTHD build you think it's standard, or something in between standard and premium.

 

[gtracedriver]

GT5 premiums are future proof. I don't think GT6 will be released with 1000+ cars. They will just have premium cars, weather on all tracks, damange and more tracks of course. Or they will just keep adding features to GT5 for another 2-3yrs before making GT on PS4. GT5 they are just giving players as many car as they can put in the game. I think track DLC will or should be released fo GT5

 

[GT5Canuck]

Which it doesn't. Or rather, almost certainly won't.

Then I asked:

Are you (and possibly others) now claiming that Kaz's new physics model "Just input the key measurements, and it will drive like in real life" is flawed?

No.

So when you say...I agree. So long as they drove accurately to real life, the graphics should admittedly be the least of our concerns. However several of the Standards don't. And they don't by a huge margin....you're not saying "The physics for this model in GT4 are off, and therefore we should assume the physics for the GT5 Standard version are also off"?

And if that's the case, what are you trying to say about the physics of a game no one writing here has even played yet?

I believe your analogy is addressing the wrong issue.

It's more like "If the wine is the only important part of a meal, why bother giving me steak 1/5 of the time, why not just give me mac and cheese every time as long as I have good wine?"

The follow up to which is of course, wine isn't the only improtant thing... if it were, the host would have been stupid for wasting so much timme prepairing each steak for the 1/5th of the time that you got steak.

Okay, I can see where you're going, but I don't think that's the point of the the comment I was responding to.

It's not wine we're getting each meal in that example...instead we're getting 3 square meals a day here, only 20% of which are "ideal" steak dinners. And since we can only have one in five that are ideal, the other four don't need to be good, they can be as crappy as the cook wants, because we'll still eat them.

And who cares that the cook wants to serve us decent, good fare 80% of the time...we'll just have a hissy fit and say the cook might as well make us KD.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

My point was mostly that to say graphics aren't important is your opinion, and that's fine. But Kaz obviously does believe they're important; hence Premiums. So to give us rehashed models from as far back as early 2001... it sends an inconsistent message. That's all.

Toronado's point is that due to GT's love of padding that all important car-roster total, there are now cars in the game that don't exist. Badge-jobs that never actually happened.

 

[VXR]

What cars were they, out of interest?

 

[Sapphire-Wolf]

My point was mostly that to say graphics aren't important is your opinion, and that's fine. But Kaz obviously does believe they're important; hence Premiums. So to give us rehashed models from as far back as early 2001... it sends an inconsistent message. That's all.

Toronado's point is that due to GT's love of padding that all important car-roster total, there are now cars in the game that don't exist. Badge-jobs that never actually happened.

Like the Lexus GS300 with a 2JZ-GTE, the Lexus SC300 with a 1JZ-GTE, the Lexus IS200 (J) and the SR20DET powered 240SX.

 

[nioxic]

Yes we do. It would do you well to read up a bit in this very thread rather than ask questions we already covered as if they are adding some new view point (not being snotty about it, just saying you aren't the first to do it and it's a good idea).



Minor scratches and dents get drawn on.



Yes, a video of premiums and standards on the same track has already been posted.



Well I really shouldn't be bothered answering for you then... but I already typed it, so why not do some homework now on your own and read up a bit...

You're a sad negative old man

 

[Tornado]

...you're not saying "The physics for this model in GT4 are off, and therefore we should assume the physics for the GT5 Standard version are also off"?

I am saying that, actually. However, I'm not saying that because of a problem with the engine itself. I'm saying it because of a problem with the car. The "key measurements" (to borrow the phrase, as I think it works nicely) are almost definitely wrong in GT5, and because they are wrong the car will not drive like it does in real life.



This ties back to the original post I was responding to, which said that we shouldn't worry about graphics because the physics are what is important. The feel of the cars, and how closely they match their real life counterparts. And I agree, except the graphics aren't the only problem with the Standards, as several of them will also drive inaccurately (to varying levels) in Gran Turismo 5 just like they did in GTPSP, GT4 and (for some of them) GT3. It isn't a problem with the physics engine, and because it isn't is the reason that I am making the (not particularly large) assumption that they will be problem cars in the game despite not driving them yet.

What cars were they, out of interest?

The ones Sapphire-Wolf mentioned for starters, but there are a bunch of others as well.

 

[minihulkster]

Sorry for quoting you rather late.

Now, what on earth are you talking about? The 800+ standard cars are directly taken from GT4, without doing anything to the 3D models. They are GT4 cars.

The '99 Impreza Rally Car is a different story though, because it is clearly made from scratch, and nothing they took from GT4. It looks on par with every other Premium car. But only because you can't see the entire interior in that early GTHD build you think it's standard, or something in between standard and premium.

Wow, there has been a lot of misunderstanding on both sides. I know the standards have not been remodeled. I was simply explaining why they were not reworked and that maybe, some of the old had been reworked before they knew exactly what their planed gt5 feature set was. For example, they may have started to remodel some cars before they decided to add damage(this requires modeling the cars piece by piece) and those cars could be of a higher quality but not premium(due to lack of cockpit). Please, remember that I am speaking hypothetically.

 

[Devedander]

You're a sad negative old man

And you seem to be a lazy, entitled kid.

 

[GT5Canuck]

The "key measurements" (to borrow the phrase, as I think it works nicely) are almost definitely wrong in GT5, and because they are wrong the car will not drive like it does in real life.

And here I'll step back, as I have no idea if PD is using the GT4 measurements to plug into the GT5 physics engine, or if those measurements would produce the same non-realistic physics as seen in GT4 for those models. And outside of the PD development team I don;t think anyone does.

This ties back to the original post I was responding to, which said that we shouldn't worry about graphics because the physics are what is important. The feel of the cars, and how closely they match their real life counterparts. And I agree, except the graphics aren't the only problem with the Standards, as several of them will also drive inaccurately (to varying levels) in Gran Turismo 5 just like they did in GTPSP, GT4 and (for some of them) GT3. It isn't a problem with the physics engine, and because it isn't is the reason that I am making the (not particularly large) assumption that they will be problem cars in the game despite not driving them yet.

Again, the magnitude of such an assumption will have to remain a point we disagree on.

The happy news is that it will be confirmed or denied in under two weeks.

 

[Strittan]

Wow, there has been a lot of misunderstanding on both sides. I know the standards have not been remodeled. I was simply explaining why they were not reworked and that maybe, some of the old had been reworked before they knew exactly what their planed gt5 feature set was. For example, they may have started to remodel some cars before they decided to add damage(this requires modeling the cars piece by piece) and those cars could be of a higher quality but not premium(due to lack of cockpit). Please, remember that I am speaking hypothetically.

Ok, now I see where you're coming from. 👍

Nothing is for sure yet indeed, but since the '99 Impreza's exterior is 100% Premium, I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't make the interior as well. It would be one thing if the footage I posted was only a couple of months old, but it's not. It has in fact been almost 4 years since it was shown, and I don't think PD would finish more than half the car and then forget about it.

Here is another video of it by the way:

[YOUTUBEHD]OGmwlFbu3YA[/YOUTUBEHD]

 

[Devedander]

Ok, now I see where you're coming from. 👍

Nothing is for sure yet indeed, but since the '99 Impreza's exterior is 100% Premium, I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't make the interior as well. It would be one thing if the footage I posted was only a couple of months old, but it's not. It has in fact been almost 4 years since it was shown, and I don't think PD would finish more than half the car and then forget about it.

Here is another video of it by the way:

It's interesting how much of a double sided blade the cockpits were... on that video the windows are clear and you can see inside... I find the forced tinted windows of standards annoyingly unpleasant to see and it reminds me that had they not brought so much attention to modeled interriors and super detailed cars, we could have had clear windows on standards and they woudln't stand out as low quality as long as every car was similar.

 

[minihulkster]

Ok, now I see where you're coming from. 👍

Nothing is for sure yet indeed, but since the '99 Impreza's exterior is 100% Premium, I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't make the interior as well. It would be one thing if the footage I posted was only a couple of months old, but it's not. It has in fact been almost 4 years since it was shown, and I don't think PD would finish more than half the car and then forget about it.

Here is to hoping that the standard designation on the list is just a typo. We will find out soon enough.

It's interesting how much of a double sided blade the cockpits were... on that video the windows are clear and you can see inside... I find the forced tinted windows of standards annoyingly unpleasant to see and it reminds me that had they not brought so much attention to modeled interriors and super detailed cars, we could have had clear windows on standards and they woudln't stand out as low quality as long as every car was similar.

Had PD told us from the get go that we were going to have premium and standard cars, clearly defined the difference, and explained that it would take many years to model all premiums, then I don't think anyone(or should I say many because there will always be complainers) would have made as big of a deal about it.

 

[eSZee]

Or using GT terminology, Semi-Premium ? 💡

Laughing out loud. You can buy one and tell people you're sporting a semi.....

 

[StogyBear]

Some of the standard models aren't even from GT4. This car was made for GTPSP. weak PD weak

 

[Devedander]

Okay, I can see where you're going, but I don't think that's the point of the the comment I was responding to.

As you can see blow in Slips comment, it pretty much was the point. People constantly say "the physics are the only important part of a sim" implying the graphics are not and thus we shouldn't bother complaining about them.

Thus the analogy if one part of the mean is the only important part then why give us anything good at all for the rest of the mean (ie why not give us gt1 car models/why not give us mac and cheese across the board).

Ultimately we know that isn't really the case though, and if it were the chef/KY would be an idiot for wasting so much time on the steak/premium cars because they aren't important.

My point was mostly that to say graphics aren't important is your opinion, and that's fine. But Kaz obviously does believe they're important; hence Premiums. So to give us rehashed models from as far back as early 2001... it sends an inconsistent message. That's all.

 

[gtracedriver]

Some of the standard models aren't even from GT4. This car was made for GTPSP. weak PD weak

That is strange because they had to make that car from scratch and surely they knew they were going to have the car on PS3 as well. I think they just couldn't spend same time on it like SLS. All cars will look great except the cars from GT3

 

[minihulkster]

As you can see blow in Slips comment, it pretty much was the point. People constantly say "the physics are the only important part of a sim" implying the graphics are not and thus we shouldn't bother complaining about them.

Thus the analogy if one part of the mean is the only important part then why give us anything good at all for the rest of the mean (ie why not give us gt1 car models/why not give us mac and cheese across the board).

Ultimately we know that isn't really the case though, and if it were the chef/KY would be an idiot for wasting so much time on the steak/premium cars because they aren't important.

Your post has made me hungry. I agree. I think graphics and everything(sound, physics, etc.) else matters in a sim. After all, isn't it the goal to make every detail as lifelike as possible so that it simulates the real driving experience?

 

[Devedander]

Your post has made me hungry. I agree. I think graphics and everything(sound, physics, etc.) else matters in a sim. After all, isn't it the goal to make every detail as lifelike as possible so that it simulates the real driving experience?

I actually bought some deliciuos steaks for lunch and I don't drink so had somme delicious apple juice and a fresh roll... 100% of my lunch was premium

 

[minihulkster]

I actually bought some deliciuos steaks for lunch and I don't drink so had somme delicious apple juice and a fresh roll... 100% of my lunch was premium

That's ironic. I just had some apple juice too, but I had a Standard dinner (on second thought it may have been Semi-Premium).

 

[Devedander]

That's ironic. I just had some apple juice too, but I had a Standard dinner (on second thought it may have been Semi-Premium).

You can tell if it was standard or semi premium... cut it open and look in the middle... that's the key!

 

[Spark_GTP]

In my opinion some car shouldn't be premium or even be in the game.

For example, Jeep from WWII, VW van, Isuzu concept who need that and cars from SEMA too.

They should spent that time on many decent cars like Lamborghini Diablo, Lamborghini Reventon, Maserati MC12, Ferrari F50, DTM cars.

Hope to see DLC soon.

 

[Leon Festinger]

Most people probably won't even notice the difference in game unless they're really looking for it.

 

[GT5Canuck]

As you can see blow in Slips comment, it pretty much was the point. People constantly say "the physics are the only important part of a sim" implying the graphics are not and thus we shouldn't bother complaining about them.

Fair enough.

If anything, 5 has proven the old adage "you can please (fool) some of the people all of the time..." to be spot on.

And, again, before any one of us has even played the final product.

Such power.