Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

  • Thread starter LP670-4 SV
  • 10,183 comments
  • 784,936 views

What would you have rather had PD do about "premium" vs. "standard" cars

  • Keep everthing the same

    Votes: 324 19.1%
  • Release the game later with all the cars "premium"

    Votes: 213 12.6%
  • Not do "premium" cars at all but focus on other features i.e. dynamic weather

    Votes: 134 7.9%
  • DLC packs after the release

    Votes: 844 49.8%
  • Wished PD didn't get are hopes up, lol

    Votes: 180 10.6%

  • Total voters
    1,695
There are not 800 completely different standard cars.
Many of those (about half of them) are very similar versions of "base" cars which wouldn't take much additional time to convert.
So you can cut the 8-9 years figure in half in my opinion, which coincidentally turns out to be about the GT5 development time.
Yes, that would be a significant time saver. I know PD likes to keep a small team, but I personally think they should hire more modelers or outsource. I would love to see GT6 within the next two years with over 1000 premium cars.:drool::drool::drool:
 
I would peg the duplicates at about 15%, not half.
Absolute duplicates (as in Opel/Vauxhall style duplicates)? Yeah, 15% sounds about right. But it doesn't take the fabled "6 months per car" figure to pound out a 1989 Skyline GT-R, and then 6 more months to make a 1994 Skyline GT-R. Which is what I think he was referring to.
 
Absolute duplicates (as in Opel/Vauxhall style duplicates)? Yeah, 15% sounds about right. But it doesn't take the fabled "6 months per car" figure to pound out a 1989 Skyline GT-R, and then 6 more months to make a 1994 Skyline GT-R. Which is what I think he was referring to.

Yes, I meant exactly that.
 
how do the standard cars stack up against forza 3/

No standard cars look better than Forza 3 for the simple reason that any cars which were ported from Forza 2 to 3 where already created on current gen hardware (360) compared to GT4's last gen hardware (ps2).

Even the lowest poly Forza 3 cars have way more polys that GT5 standard cars, plus they all have full damage and interiors. GT however has very good reflections and shading which can make the standard models look good quality from a distance.

Robin.
 
No standard cars look better than Forza 3 for the simple reason that any cars which were ported from Forza 2 to 3 where already created on current gen hardware (360) compared to GT4's last gen hardware (ps2).

Even the lowest poly Forza 3 cars have way more polys that GT5 standard cars, plus they all have full damage and interiors. GT however has very good reflections and shading which can make the standard models look good quality from a distance.

Robin.

There is also the possibility that the cars in GT4 were dumbed down so that the PS2 hardware could run the game and that the full LOD model will be used in GT5. I state this as a possibility because Kaz said that they have been modeling premium cars to be on a LOD that would be suitable for the PS4.
 
There is also the possibility that the cars in GT4 were dumbed down so that the PS2 hardware could run the game and that the full LOD model will be used in GT5. I state this as a possibility because Kaz said that they have been modeling premium cars to be on a LOD that would be suitable for the PS4.

Well if kaz and P.D had a vision of what the next GT might look like, here it is:

http://propergraphics.com/3dlowpoly/Koenigsegg_video.htm
 
To all those who say GT-games or driving sims in general are all about physics and the rest is irrelevant eye-candy or cockpit view being a useless gimmick here's my explanation to why I think it isn't.
Aside from the fact it's expected in a driving sim in this day and age and the taster of what GT5 would be like called Prologue featuring cockpit view on all cars bar one (the GT-R Proto) making people grow accustomed to using it within the context of GT, a lot of people who really, really love cars think a dashboard design is an integral part of the design and character of a car.

I've loved cars from a very early age and always found the interior of a car often as intruiging as the exterior, the dials, gearlever, steering wheel, design of the dashboard itself, even the buttons, etc. to me were as important to how I perceived the car (as a whole) as the exterior shape and details such as lights, grille or the wheel design.
I'm probably preaching to the converted anyway as those who say it's only about the physics probably think this is jibberish or incomprehensible within their logic or perception (which thankfully isn't mine).

Thing is, the reason I bought the very first GT after renting it in a videostore once were exactly those physics which impressed the hell out of me.
I had played some driving games before (even with a rudimentary cockpit view) but I'd never experienced an accurate physics engine before (which even after obtaining my real drivers licence seemed very convincing) and coupled to the revolutionary game-structure it made me an instant convert despite not having a cockpit view.

Even after 4 iterations GT4 provided me plenty of fun without cockpit view 6 years ago despite the physics being a bit of a let down for me.
Then came GT5 Prologue combining the physics I liked with something new to GT and the combination was what really brought a new dimension to the game for me, much more important than 3D ever could be I reckon.
I've played games before with beautiful rendered cockpits (at that time) but with an appalling physics engine which weren't fun at all, so only eye-candy isn't the reason.
I've played games with a good physics engine but with appalling graphics (even at that time) and it wasn't fun at all, as it took away the realism for me.
The killer combination is what's important, not singling out one aspect and claiming that's the only aspect of importance.
Saying a driving game is all about physics is the gaming equivalent of those people who say after being asked about their car: "don't care really, as long as it gets me from A to B" (nothing wrong with that ofcourse, although I don't regard these people to be true petrolheads).:)
 
There is also the possibility that the cars in GT4 were dumbed down so that the PS2 hardware could run the game and that the full LOD model will be used in GT5.
We know this to be the truth, actually, based on what we were told by Kaz after GT4 was released.
The problem is that not all of the Standard cars would be privy to the same "better than GT4 quality" assets; we don't really know exactly to what extent the base assets were dumbed down in the first place; and the "better than GT4" standards still wouldn't be up to the detail of, say, GT:HD.
 
Last edited:
And two of the finest interiors ever - The E46 M3 and Jag XF-R - are standard, so you can't see their interiors.
 
There are not 800 completely different standard cars.
Many of those (about half of them) are very similar versions of "base" cars which wouldn't take much additional time to convert.
So you can cut the 8-9 years figure in half in my opinion, which coincidentally turns out to be about the GT5 development time.

I would peg the duplicates at about 15%, not half.

I just did something interesting; I took GT5's car list, chopped off all the Premiums, and then proceeded to cut any cars which either

a) had an identical (or very similar) body to another Standard car, or
b) had an identical (or very similar) body to one of the Premiums.

I'm doing it how I would imagine most would: The first-gen RS6 Avant would need to be done from scratch even if there's already a Premium RS6, because they are such different cars in real life. The Nismo 400R, on the other hand, requires a few detail upgrades from the Premium R33 GT-R, not a complete from-scratch build. Things like the TT Touring Car, in my mind anyways, also need to be done from scratch; but on the other hand, the RSC Rally Raid car, since it was a fantasy-based racer built off the RSC concept, doesn't have much difference to it. A sedan and wagon version of the first-gen WRX also count as separates. I'm in no way going to say this is some definitive list, but it's interesting so see how much time could be saved by knocking chunks off the list.

Grand total? 424 Standards would need to be made, from scratch. The rest could be made in much less time by using one of those 424 as a base, or an already-existing Premium model.

So... yeah, I wouldn't expect GT6 to have all Premiums, unless PD significantly streamlines the process or hires a lot more staff. And that's not even taking into account cars that would be new to the series!

They have done a lot of work with the Premiums, I won't deny. I don't expect Standards to disappear in GT6 on PS3 though, unless they see the backlash and are content with whatever amount of total Premiums they have whenever that game launches.

Just some (obviously hypothetical) food for thought :)
 
I expect Standards that have a vague Premium counterpart to be somewhat rapidly replaced, plus a couple dozen or so "gotta have it" Standards which also have similar ease of expansion (for example, I'd imagine stuff like the Lambos would be pretty high up, especially because you could use one of the Countachs as a partial base for another one) to be scratch built to Premium.

However, because of the amazingly odd way that PD seem to have introduced the Premium replacements (you get the Standard version, and the Premium version!), I'm actually not sure how they would go about introducing the cars if they do use DLC packs to upgrade Standards.
 
So... yeah, I wouldn't expect GT6 to have all Premiums, unless PD significantly streamlines the process or hires a lot more staff. And that's not even taking into account cars that would be new to the series!

They have done a lot of work with the Premiums, I won't deny. I don't expect Standards to disappear in GT6 on PS3 though, unless they see the backlash and are content with whatever amount of total Premiums they have whenever that game launches.

Just some (obviously hypothetical) food for thought :)

I am actually thinking (possibly foolishly) that GT6 will indeed featuer a large roster of premium cars... maybe not all 1000+ but a lot...

The reason I think this is what we see in GT5 seems very much like a beta or a proof of concept of a lot of ideas... like they have figured out how to do these things and the hard grind of getting it figured out is mostly done, now it's time to flesh it out.

So the process of adding weather to a track is reaosonably well known now, they have made a few tracks that feature different times of day so that process is smoothed out. Now they can concentrate on just applying this knowledge and toolset to the rest of the assets in the game.

I honestly think GT5 was supposed to release shortly after FM3 wihtout weather, without day night, without carts and without a track maker.

But I think they were all in the works for GT6...

Basically GT5 was a "what we have right now" dump of GT6, however when FM3 started to look impressive they decided "we better up the ante a bit" and delayed GT5 until they could get some more features working. The busted their butts, got more features working and proved what they can do.

Now it's going to be a long stint of grinding out assets. Grinding out premium cars, grinding out day night tracks, grinding out more karts etc.

If they have done 80% or so of the work on the weather engine and day night process, it should be much faster to crank more of them out now espcially if they can pull the parts of the team who were working on creating these processes off creation duty and put them to work on implimentation duty.

See what I am saying?

It's like building a website... you might spend a year fleshing out the layout, programing the flash stuff and composing the background music. But once you have a basic site with a few images on each page and a some navigation tools built into a template, you can start cranking out a big complex website rather quickly.

That's what I hope at least...

Then again it still pisses me off because that means GT5 really is GT5P2 and GT6 is really GT5.

God forbid GT6 becomes GT5P3 and GT7 is GT5 :(

you get the Standard version, and the Premium version!), I'm actually not sure how they would go about introducing the cars if they do use DLC packs to upgrade Standards.

Another thing to consider is that standard and premium is built into how the game presents cars at the dealerships... changing standards up for premiums it seems might be complex if it somehow messes with how the dealerships and sales go through... I can't think of exactly why it would but it's the kind of thing I could see being an unpleasant challenge.
 
And how does PD's inclusion of such low-res models help improve realism?

1. They look fine.

2. Graphics are the least important aspect of any simulation.

3. Some would say 400+ pages discussing a subject which was clarified 6 months back is slightly over the top.

4. You can always take a pass on GT5 and wait until 2013 for GT6 or enjoy the competition, Forza 3, NFS Shift, Supercar Challenge.............
 
Grand total? 424 Standards would need to be made, from scratch. The rest could be made in much less time by using one of those 424 as a base, or an already-existing Premium model.

So... yeah, I wouldn't expect GT6 to have all Premiums, unless PD significantly streamlines the process or hires a lot more staff. And that's not even taking into account cars that would be new to the series!

I think new additions can also replace the cars in GT4 which are obsolete, as in aren't going to be missed much by most, not legendary enough to spend much time on (as opposed to a Suzuki Cervo;)) like the first gen Citroën C5 for example and therefore counterbalance the total number.
About 400 Premium base models (or more realistically 300) to effectively replace all Standard cars (given that some even already are modelled, just one variation included in GT5) doesn't sound that far-fetched to me if they streamlined and managed this project better and get their priorities straight.
Hate to think the "undead" will make a second return in GT6.........:scared:
 
2. Graphics are the least important aspect of any simulation.
I agree. So long as they drove accurately to real life, the graphics should admittedly be the least of our concerns. However:


Several of the Standards don't. And they don't by a huge margin.
 
I agree. So long as they drove accurately to real life, the graphics should admittedly be the least of our concerns. However:


Several of the Standards don't. And they don't by a huge margin.

Whats wrong with it? it doesn't look bad for a GT4 car.
 
A cockpit view doesn't affect the physics, sure, but it adds to the experience of driving and owning a car, I'd say. If the physics really are the absolute single aspect of the game we should be caring about, why not just give us GT1 car models?

Way to swing the pendulum, dude. "If I can only have steak every 5th dinner, then why even bother to give me ham, and chicken, and hamburger, and fish for the rest of the meals? Why not just feed me Kraft Dinner the rest of the time?"

A game needs a balance of all features... Standards don't offer what Premiums offer (obviously), but they don't even offer what many other "competitors" do. Which is the issue I believe most of us "whiners" have. Of course, we all know it can't be changed now... doesn't make it any less disappointing.

Agreed, the game is done and no one's input is going to make a single bit of difference. So remind me, what's the point to all the whining, again?

I agree. So long as they drove accurately to real life, the graphics should admittedly be the least of our concerns. However:


Several of the Standards don't. And they don't by a huge margin.

Umm, I thought the argument was that PD just ported crappy graphics from GT4?

Are you (and possibly others) now claiming that Kaz's new physics model "Just input the key measurements, and it will drive like in real life" is flawed?
 
Last edited:
The physics and features have been given priority now the car models will be gradually upgraded to premium.

There are some huge leaps in logic being made in this thread and all concern a game no one actually owns!
 
Whats wrong with it? it doesn't look bad for a GT4 car.

save the image till we find a image o the same car in GT5! then we shall compare!

honestly i dont think the standard cars ive seen in the videos look bad at all..

sure theres no interior view and threes black windows and its prolly a bit lower polygon count?

but its still a hell of a lot nicer than GT4... and thats the only alternative i have as a playstation fanboy who doesnt like xboxes. (and i dont buy games from EA for my pc!)

However, back to the premium stuff.

how does it work? (do we know?)

i have a standard car.. what happens if i smash into a barrier with 200 mph? nothing? does it get "invisible" dents and breaks down by showing a few scratches on the side?

can i even drive premium cars together with standard? e.g. join a race in my nissan GT-R premium thingie, and race against some crappy standard lowres bugatti veyron? (:P)

OR is the dmg feature only enabled in a few races ect. that would then be locked for premium cars?
(sure maybe i could find it by reading through these thousands of posts but.. honestly, i cba :P)

seeking info ftw!
 

Latest Posts

Back