Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[nissman]

I really don't care about the looks of Premium and Standard cars. I just care about the physics being the same on both types.

 

[analog]

The point is that it is ridiculous to think that an added bonus ruins the game in the first place.

No, it's ridiculous to think that it can't ruin it in the first place, apart from the fact I don't even consider it a bonus but simply a cynical move to increase the car count to a 1000, even if it were a bonus it could ruin the game for me by making it inconsistent and incoherent.
That is doesn't ruin the game for you and that you consider it a bonus doesn't mean I can't regard them as ruining the game.

 

[Adam41]

No, it's ridiculous to think that it can't ruin it in the first place, apart from the fact I don't even consider it a bonus but simply a cynical move to increase the car count to a 1000, even if it were a bonus it could ruin the game for me by making it inconsistent and incoherent.
That is doesn't ruin the game for you and that you consider it a bonus doesn't mean I can't regard them as ruining the game.

Cynical . What would you do if they said in 2007 or whenever, GT5 is going to have 200 cars! Yes 200! That's 3.5 times less than GT4! Everyone would question this move and when they said "Oh, well we only had enough time to make 200 of the projected 1000 cars into GT5-PS3 glory". Surely doing it this way would have caused way more criticism. At least I'm glad that I see it as a bonus. I can if I want, drive the other 800 standard cars if I get bored of the 200 premium cars. And I will.

 

[Mech0z]

Isnt it the plan to gradiually add more cars as premium throughout the games lifetime? Or is nothing in the going to be changed at all during its lifetime? (If there is any sources on such info)

 

[Luminis]

The point is that it is ridiculous to think that an added bonus ruins the game in the first place.

Well, if they just farmed out the work on the standard cars (which would mean it would take even less time to make them than it took to upscale the GT4 versions), we might have ended with 500 standard cars that are actually on the same level as the current standard in the inddustry and with, say, partially modelles interior.
I don't see why thinking that that would've been a better thing to do than what PD actually did is a bad thing.

Dunno about you, but 220 premiums and 500 standard cars that support every feature and have cockpit view would surpass what we actually have by far, at least in my opnion.
And while the standard cars don't ruin the overall game, there would have been better options (in my opnion) that are just as easy to implement.

Regarding the 'added bonus' thing. Just watch the commercial with Kevin Buttler. All I'm hearing is "1000 cars!" not "220 cars and 800 as a bonus!"

Best looking cars for a very long time! From RDK, great shots man.

Quotet for truth. I have yet to see any game that has a F40 that could come even close to GT5's. I'm not that big of a fan of most Ferrari, but the F40 is just a beatiful piece of machinery.

Isnt it the plan to gradiually add more cars as premium throughout the games lifetime? Or is nothing in the going to be changed at all during its lifetime? (If there is any sources on such info)

Well, the only info we have was that Kazunori once said that he doesn't like DLC.
However, everyone and their mother is doing the DLC thing now, so I guess it's quite likely to see PD doing the same.

 

[shawtyoner]

Cynical . What would you do if they said in 2007 or whenever, GT5 is going to have 200 cars! Yes 200! That's 3.5 times less than GT4! Everyone would question this move and when they said "Oh, well we only had enough time to make 200 of the projected 1000 cars into GT5-PS3 glory". Surely doing it this way would have caused way more criticism. At least I'm glad that I see it as a bonus. I can if I want, drive the other 800 standard cars if I get bored of the 200 premium cars. And I will.

They did this with GT3, and I'm sure a lot of people were disappointed, but that didn't mean the game was any less good, it was great actually even though it had way less cars than GT2.

It's a double edged sword unfortunately which we will just have to except. Yes it does hurt, but that doesn't mean GT5 will suck, no GT game has sucked yet, regardless of what is in game and what was left out.

 

[analog]

Cynical . What would you do if they said in 2007 or whenever, GT5 is going to have 200 cars! Yes 200! That's 3.5 times less than GT4! Everyone would question this move and when they said "Oh, well we only had enough time to make 200 of the projected 1000 cars into GT5-PS3 glory". Surely doing it this way would have caused way more criticism. At least I'm glad that I see it as a bonus. I can if I want, drive the other 800 standard cars if I get bored of the 200 premium cars. And I will.

Well GT3 had far less cars than GT2 did but it was considered the better game, at least I did consider it to be.
Considering GT4 to be the final game on the last gen I didn't expect to see a 1000 cars anyway for their first game on the current gen, I expected the same approach as GT3.
Sure, roughly 200 cars isn't much after all these years but they could marketed it as quality over quantity and the only criticism would be that it didn't have that many cars instead of this controversial decision.
It would fit the reputation of PD as 'perfectionists' much better in my opinion and I think if they were confident enough to only have around 200 cars this would be much more easily accepted by all parties on this debate especially if the magic 1000 number wasn't mentioned in the first place (so looking forward to driving 800 Standard cars wasn't an argument).

 

[Spawinte]

That screenshot looks worse than a GT4 miata and only a little better than a PS1 model. The guy who suggested that this was down to LoD is right. If you can get that close to a car with its LoD at that level then that would put this whole affair into the bug/glitch category. Here is an example of LoD not scaling up quick enough from Mass Effect, observe the textures on the rock http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hT1hzqkbSg&fmt=22

 

[Tornado]

I would be surprised if LOD applied to the Standard cars. There certainly is no reason for them to make it so it does.

 

[Spawinte]

I would be surprised if LOD applied to the Standard cars. There certainly is no reason for them to make it so it does.

It applies to almost everything in any game. If something is not in view or is so far away that details cannot be made out then it makes no sense to waste resources rendering it at full detail.

 

[WolfRacer543]

It applies to almost everything in any game. If something is not in view or is so far away that details cannot be made out then it makes no sense to waste resources rendering it at full detail.

Yup, the question is whether or not it is a noticable drop in quality while gaming... there's very few games that can do it seemlessly. Its one reason why I thought Crysis looked worse in motion than it did in screenshots. When actually moving around it was very clear that textures and objects were popping in and out of quality.

 

[Tornado]

It applies to almost everything in any game. If something is not in view or is so far away that details cannot be made out then it makes no sense to waste resources rendering it at full detail.

And, depending on how PD creates the various LOD models, it also doesn't make that much sense to worry about creating LOD maps when the savings are small enough to be irrelevant. Going from a 5000 ploy model to a 1000 poly model isn't going to make any difference for game performance. I actually know of some games that were made in a way that LOD settings only applied to some things, and that other things were rendered at full detail no matter how far away they were.

 

[MidianGTX]

It's totally a bonus to me. Aren't they all in the used car sections? That suggests that premium vehicles are really the core of the game... and as an extra they've thrown in the GT4 cars as well with newly updated physics.

 

[LaBounti]

That screenshot looks worse than a GT4 miata and only a little better than a PS1 model. The guy who suggested that this was down to LoD is right. If you can get that close to a car with its LoD at that level then that would put this whole affair into the bug/glitch category. Here is an example of LoD not scaling up quick enough from Mass Effect, observe the textures on the rock http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hT1hzqkbSg&fmt=22

I also see it that way.

Did anyone consider the Miata was in its low LoD form and not the player car? Or are most of you satisfied with the only possibility of that being the only LoD model? In Forza 3 only the player car was in its "show room" quality during photomode.

Like Tornado said it doesn't make sense but you can see in the windshield thats not the high quality Lod compared to the GT4 photomode shots and GT4 showroom model.

 

[gaming25]

Well, if they just farmed out the work on the standard cars (which would mean it would take even less time to make them than it took to upscale the GT4 versions), we might have ended with 500 standard cars that are actually on the same level as the current standard in the inddustry and with, say, partially modelles interior.
I don't see why thinking that that would've been a better thing to do than what PD actually did is a bad thing.

Dunno about you, but 220 premiums and 500 standard cars that support every feature and have cockpit view would surpass what we actually have by far, at least in my opnion.
And while the standard cars don't ruin the overall game, there would have been better options (in my opnion) that are just as easy to implement.

My post wasnt about that.

 

[WolfRacer543]

And, depending on how PD creates the various LOD models, it also doesn't make that much sense to worry about creating LOD maps when the savings are small enough to be irrelevant. Going from a 5000 ploy model to a 1000 poly model isn't going to make any difference for game performance. I actually know of some games that were made in a way that LOD settings only applied to some things, and that other things were rendered at full detail no matter how far away they were.

If they haven't made LOD drops for the cars then they SHOULD have made LOD drops and had a bigger maximum grid, or rendered in full HD instead of stretched HD (actually, do we know what resolution GT5 will run at?)

 

[gaming25]

The point is that the feature of 1000 cars is misleading as there are comprimises. Your missing all the tiny details that make a difference.

How is it "misleading"? There are 1000 cars in the game.

 

[Spawinte]

And, depending on how PD creates the various LOD models, it also doesn't make that much sense to worry about creating LOD maps when the savings are small enough to be irrelevant. Going from a 5000 ploy model to a 1000 poly model isn't going to make any difference for game performance. I actually know of some games that were made in a way that LOD settings only applied to some things, and that other things were rendered at full detail no matter how far away they were.

It's not just polygons, you have to think about textures, animations (wheels, driver) and effects (smoke/lighting/skidmarks). None of these things get rendered unless it needs to be. If you consider how far they are pushing the hardware then it makes sense that they would take any saving of resources that they can find.

If you look at the miata in question its got a nasty blurry all in one texture for the door while the gt4 model has a comparatively clear texture. Its only really apparent at the door handle and panel gaps but you see my point.

People have to ask themselves if they believe this is a graphical anomaly or if they believe that Polyphony actually allowed the car to pass QA in that state. Looking at the standards they hold themselves to I doubt it.

 

[MidianGTX]

Yes they "threw" it in recklessly making people think it had interiors.

Yeah possibly, but I knew so personally I just think of it as a bonus. Sure some people might be disappointed but I'm speaking from my own point of view.

 

[LaBounti]

If they haven't made LOD drops for the cars then they SHOULD have made LOD drops and had a bigger maximum grid, or rendered in full HD instead of stretched HD (actually, do we know what resolution GT5 will run at?)

The frame buffer is already being maxed to keep 60fps. Looking at Ferrari Challenge in 1080p then looking at GT5P's 1080p "mode" the frame rate makes a bigger difference.

 

[Tornado]

How is it "misleading"? There are 1000 cars in the game.

If you are seriously asking that question, than any attempts to explain to you would be worthless.
And by the way, it is closer to 900 anyways.

 

[MidianGTX]

If you are seriously asking that question, than any attempts to explain to you would be worthless.
And by the way, it is closer to 900 anyways.

Surely you mean that as in... passing off all the Skylines as one car or something. I mean, in reality they're all different cars so it'd be 1031 but you mean most players will only see it as 900, right?

 

[Tenacious D]

Well, if they just farmed out the work on the standard cars (which would mean it would take even less time to make them than it took to upscale the GT4 versions), we might have ended with 500 standard cars that are actually on the same level as the current standard in the inddustry and with, say, partially modelles interior. I don't see why thinking that that would've been a better thing to do than what PD actually did is a bad thing.

People keep stating this as if you can go to the local WalMart and buy 500 high resolution car models for pennies on the dollar. I know I have to keep repeating myself endlessly on this because some people just flat out refuse to listen.

SONY isn't made of money like a certain American monopoly. Well, since "monopoly" apparently has no real meaning here, I'll use the term "market hostile mega-corporation." I'm sure this will satisfy Slip. Japan is in rough economic straits rather like Europe, perhaps better, perhaps worse, but not good. Which means that every Yen spent is quite valuable and needs to be justified.

"Farming out work" or contracting work from modeling companies is much more expensive than doing it in-house. Even assuming the cost per model is the same or a bit less, you have to buy the time of the company so they can make a profit, and this is expensive. Perhaps you could go to third world countries, but a certain other game has demonstrated the perils which can crop up from this tactic, not to mention security issues.

GT5 has already cost SONY at least $80 million dollars. I have a feeling that Kazunori probably pitched a budget of $40 - 50 million. So after the budget perhaps doubling in cost, do you think SONY would like to see another multi-million dollar bill on top of that, when they already invested in one of the best modeling houses on the planet?

Every time someone mentions how farming out work is no-brainer awesome sauce without thinking things through, I'm going to quote this post.

Yup, the question is whether or not it is a noticable drop in quality while gaming... there's very few games that can do it seemlessly.

amar212 has stated definitively that in-game, the Standards look on par with the cars from Prologue. Maybe some of you might want to go into his thread and school him on this.

 

[Devedander]

How is it "misleading"? There are 1000 cars in the game.

The same way it's missleading to say "Chinese buffet with over 100 items!" but then 80 of the items are just some cookies or a piece of fruit and not real Chinese food.

 

[GT]

people let it rest! Enough already!

 

[analog]

How is it "misleading"? There are 1000 cars in the game.

Strictly speaking it's correct, there are a 1000 cars in the game, the misleading part is that mentioning GT5 contains a 1000 car without making a distinction between Premium and Standard which is apparant in the game and only showing footage of Premium cars in promo's and advertisements.

We and most fans who followed recent developments know this already for months, most casual gamers or petrolheads who didn't, see lovely Premium cars and the mentioning there will be a 1000 cars.
The most logical conclusion is to expect a 1000 Premium quality cars with cockpit view and damage (that is the most logical conclusion if you don't know what they really mean), if 80% doesn't live up to that it isn't surprising to feel mislead now is it?

I've felt mislead several months ago when I heard what a Standard car really was but I've had the time to adjust my expectations, what if you unwittingly and fully excited bought GT5, put it in your PS3 and then....WTF!
If you think we're being harsh on PD for making this decision and the way they handled it, wait for those who aren't that polite or loyal to the series, seriously I think there will be a backlash, how big it will be depends on how much people were expecting, care about it or, frankly feel conned by this having paid the full price.

I already made the decision to pay the full price knowing about this two-tier system on the basis the game overall is still entertaining enough on multiple levels to be worth it for me, not sure a lot of people share this when they'll find out after buying the game.
Now it may be very clever short term to boast about having a 1000 cars without mentioning the difference in quality and features to secure massive sales this holiday season, I doubt it's clever at all in the long run especially since GT-games have always been about consistent sales during a long lifespan and not dependant on short term hype, and I also doubt it's clever at all to potentially alienate a large group of newcomers who may not think the same about PD in ten years time like the way we do now.

 

[gaming25]

The same way it's missleading to say "Chinese buffet with over 100 items!" but then 80 of the items are just some cookies or a piece of fruit and not real Chinese food.

If it isnt real chinese food then for that to be a fair comparision, GT5 wouldnt have most of its cars actual cars, which is obviously not the case.

 

[Devedander]

People keep stating this as if you can go to the local WalMart and buy 500 high resolution car models for pennies on the dollar. I know I have to keep repeating myself endlessly on this because some people just flat out refuse to listen.

T10 seemed to do exactly that with the showroom car models.

SONY isn't made of money like a certain American monopoly.

Was that Sony's last $80 million they put into GT5?

"Farming out work" or contracting work from modeling companies is much more expensive than doing it in-house.

Actually usually it's the exact opposite... the very point of outsourcing is that even after said other company takes some profit, they are focusing on this type of business exclusively and probably in volume so can still do it cheaper than you could. It's the very essence of the outsource market and why things like temp agencies, per diem companies and contract jobs exist.

I have personally seen many outsourcing operations where it cost the company far less to pay someone else to do it than to hire their own.

GT5 has already cost SONY at least $80 million dollars. I have a feeling that Kazunori probably pitched a budget of $40 - 50 million. So after the budget perhaps doubling in cost, do you think SONY would like to see another multi-million dollar bill on top of that, when they already invested in one of the best modeling houses on the planet?

Is this more than just a guess?

Every time someone mentions how farming out work is no-brainer awesome sauce without thinking things through, I'm going to quote this post.

You certainly thought it through, but did you just think it or do you know it? Because it seems a lot of the things you think are only possibly true and not backed up by any actual data.

amar212 has stated definitively that in-game, the Standards look on par with the cars from Prologue. Maybe some of you might want to go into his thread and school him on this.

I know people who think Forza cars look impecable... considering what we know about how the standards are modeled, it's not possible they actually look as good as GT5P cars so it comes down just to how heavily he scrutinized them and his personal level of acceptance for "looks as good as".

 

[Devedander]

If it isnt real chinese food then for that to be a fair comparision, GT5 wouldnt have most of its cars actual cars, which is obviously not the case.

It's still food, and Chinese people probably eat it (they eat fruit and cookies) but it's just not on par with what people are thinking when they hear Chinese Food.

In the same way, standard cars are still cars, they are just not what PD has been showing and advertising in 99% oftheir promos...

 

[gaming25]

Strictly speaking it's correct, there are a 1000 cars in the game, the misleading part is that mentioning GT5 contains a 1000 car without making a distinction between Premium and Standard which is apparant in the game and only showing footage of Premium cars in promo's and advertisements.

We and most fans who followed recent developments know this already for months, most casual gamers or petrolheads who didn't, see lovely Premium cars and the mentioning there will be a 1000 cars.
The most logical conclusion is to expect a 1000 Premium quality cars with cockpit view and damage (that is the most logical conclusion if you don't know what they really mean), if 80% doesn't live up to that it isn't surprising to feel mislead now is it?

You shouldnt have expected the premiums to be just like the standards. There is a reason that both of them are called something different.

I've felt mislead several months ago when I heard what a Standard car really was but I've had the time to adjust my expectations, what if you unwittingly and fully excited bought GT5, put it in your PS3 and then....WTF!

Which they didnt mislead anyone since they released this information months ago.

If you think we're being harsh on PD for making this decision and the way they handled it, wait for those who aren't that polite or loyal to the series, seriously I think there will be a backlash, how big it will be depends on how much people were expecting, care about it or, frankly feel conned by this having paid the full price.

I already made the decision to pay the full price knowing about this two-tier system on the basis the game overall is still entertaining enough on multiple levels to be worth it for me, not sure a lot of people share this when they'll find out after buying the game.
Now it may be very clever short term to boast about having a 1000 cars without mentioning the difference in quality and features to secure massive sales this holiday season, I doubt it's clever at all in the long run especially since GT-games have always been about consistent sales during a long lifespan and not dependant on short term hype, and I also doubt it's clever at all to potentially alienate a large group of newcomers who may not think the same about PD in ten years time like the way we do now.

There hardly wont be any backlash at all. Interiors isnt a big deal to most people given the amount of content this game has.