Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[Dapper]

The foolish part is not seeing the real crux of the point, and that is PD SHOULD have chosen a level of detail that would allow foor a reasonble number of cars to be released now.

And not be able to use them on the next game, and possibly next console?
If they did that for GT4 we would only have the 200 premiums, or a higher car count but none reusable for the next game and possibly next console. Thus making 200-300 cars the limit for each game.

 

[Devedander]

Hey, we agree. 💡

And not be able to use them on the next game, and possibly next console?
If they did that for GT4 we would only have the 200 premiums, or a higher car count but none reusable for the next game and possibly next console. Thus making 200-300 cars the limit for each game.

It's funny, I see it entirely the other way... GT4 was the prime example of why NOT to waste your time future proofing cars... sure they used them on the next game on the next console, but technically you could use ANYTHING on the next game on the next console... they could have stuck GT1 cars in if they really wanted to... it would have been absolute garbage but it could be done.

But as for the futureproof GT4 models in GT4, that actually shows me that futureproofing is just as big as joke as I always thought it would be... sure they are "used" but they are used as filler and extremely crippled compared to the real content.

Honestly I see GT4 cars futureproofing as evidence why you should NOT waste your time futureproofing. Make the cars for the games and consoles now, NOW and make the ones for the future in the FUTURE.

As I have said before future proofing is on your best guess at what you will need in the future... but if by the time we see GT7 on PS4 suddenly features like body panel thickness and material melting point, friction coefficients and stiffness measurements or who knows what else are desired guess what? Those GT5 models are going to be dated again...

Futureproofing cars in GT is like futureproofing your PC. You can buy the biggest baddest video card in SLI today, but all that has to happen is some cool new shader has to come along in a few months and render your stuff obsolute before you know it.

Futureproofing is a joke and the fact PD DIDN'T learn from GT4 is, in my book, a HUGE mistake.

 

[RedSuinit]

Edited: I did not write it.

 

[toMsonsLLC]

PD SHOULD have chosen a level of detail that would allow foor a reasonble number of cars to be released now.

Brilliantly said, this is exactly why PD failed us; They failed to relate to us and use a proper time-line for their build. Way too excessive on the interior modeling.

We should have 400-500 premium cars. 200 in 6 years is terrible. It takes the whole GT team to make one car in 9 days (they have north of 100-120 workers). It should take a small team a week or two per car, and they should have made at least double the volume they did. Just saying, they (PD) are very slow. Think they took to much time driving cars and having fun, rather than making the game. Lets just admit, doesn't make sense to have 70 to 80 people work on one car every 9 days. There isn't that much to do. Should be like 5 people per car, 10 teams. That's 50 people making cars, which isn't a lot. That's 5 cars a week, or 10 cars every two weeks. This is 1,680 cars they should have been able to make in 6 years time. This seems insane, but you really think it's that hard to make one car every two weeks? Heck, in 6 years to make over 800 if each car took one month to create. Or 400+ cars if it takes two months to make one car. But no, we get 200-250 cars that were designed in 6 years. Even saying that they've only been making GT5 for 4 years, we still should have north of 400-500 cars with ease. They've been napping. Do the math, it speaks quite badly of PD.

I seriously don't get how they only can do 200ish cars in this time-frame. They could do 160-240 cars in a year without breaking a sweat. I just think they didn't want to include that much. I think they have a lot more cars they just not giving us. Makes me angry and confused.

 

[Devedander]

6 years of development mine and everyone else ass. Try 3 1/2 years. GT5 has NOT been in development since GT4's release, and they haven't JUST worked on GT5 since GT4's release either. Stop trolling, you're not getting the game, so why are you still here? TT was released in april of 06, which means that the longest GT5 cold have been in development is 4.5 years, BUT they didn't scrap GTHD until December 06, which takes us to 4 years. THEN they released GTPSP which I guarantee took 6 months of development time from GT5. Quit inflating numbers in order to make yourself sound reasonable. Troll.

You need to catch up on your facts... I have been told I don't have a PS3 (which I do and 2 G27s - though I will probably be selling one off - both of which I got mostly based on a desire to play GT5) and now I am being told I won't be buying GT5 when I actually have a pre order in... so yeah...

If you are going to get all uppity, at least do yourself a favor and get your facts right (lest someone site you as a troll for using false information as part of your argument).

And they did have 6 years... Kaz said himself he was working on GT5 as soon as (probably before) GT4 was out the door. What they did with that time, how they utilized it (other games, trying out ideas that got scrapped, travelingthe worldand playing with real cars, forming advertising partnerships and focusing on turning GT into a franchise inteaed of programing the gamem, sleeping under a tree) is anyones best guess... the fact is it's been 6 years since Kaz started working on it.

However you want to look at it, it's been 6 years since the last real GT (I don't count GTPSP since it's PSP and has no career mode or GT5P as it's a demo).

 

[Organ-Donor]

Brilliantly said, this is exactly why PD failed us; They failed to relate to us and use a proper time-line for their build. Way too excessive on the interior modeling.

We should have 400-500 premium cars. 200 in 6 years is terrible. It takes the whole GT team to make one car in 9 days (they have north of 100-120 workers). It should take a small team a week or two per car, and they should have made at least double the volume they did. Just saying, they (PD) are very slow. Think they took to much time driving cars and having fun, rather than making the game. Lets just admit, doesn't make sense to have 70 to 80 people work on one car every 9 days. There isn't that much to do. Should be like 5 people per car, 10 teams. That's 50 people making cars, which isn't a lot. That's 5 cars a week, or 10 cars every two weeks. This is 1,680 cars they should have been able to make in 6 years time. This seems insane, but you really think it's that hard to make one car every two weeks? Heck, in 6 years to make over 800 if each car took one month to create. Or 400+ cars if it takes two months to make one car. But no, we get 200-250 cars that were designed in 6 years. Even saying that they've only been making GT5 for 4 years, we still should have north of 400-500 cars with ease. They've been napping. Do the math, it speaks quite badly of PD.

I seriously don't get how they only can do 200ish cars in this time-frame. They could do 160-240 cars in a year without breaking a sweat. I just think they didn't want to include that much. I think they have a lot more cars they just not giving us. Makes me angry and confused.

Maybe you should take a look at the quality of the cars, check out photomode when you get the game. The quality of the premium cars are photo-realistic, almost life like, nothing seen before in any race game to date.

 

[RedSuinit]

Edited, I did not write it.

 

[Dapper]

Futureproofing is a joke and the fact PD DIDN'T learn from GT4 is, in my book, a HUGE mistake.

Ah! I thought, like most things in life, they learned from the past.
If GT6 comes out and the 200 premiums are as good as the next "premium" then I am right. If we end up with another debacle (I wouldn't personally call it that) like this standard vs premium ordeal then you, obviously, are right. Time will tell

 

[Peter]

The foolish part is not seeing the real crux of the point, and that is PD SHOULD have chosen a level of detail that would allow foor a reasonble number of cars to be released now.

200 cars on their own isn't reasonable? Only because FM3 has 400 cars, 200 isn't reasonable?

 

[Devedander]

I didn't realize that from March '05 to November '10 was six years, looks more like 5.5 to me. I'll have to dig through all of your posts, but at one point you even SAID that you weren't going to get the game anymore. It came out of your own mouth. Kaz COULDN'T have said that, because the first project he worked on after GT4 was TT and immediately after that it was GTHD. Everyone should know that. It was his proposal for the next game until they were able to develop a TRUE sequel, which got rejected, and scrapped in December of '06 AFTER they released TT. You're the one that needs to get their facts straight. It doesn't really matter if you're only counting the time between what you deem as "TRUE GT" releases, because that's not the amount of time they spent on development. Hate to break it to you, but it is the truth.

I said I wasn't getting it at full price and would either buy used or on sale if I could get it for around $40 new. Turns out Amazon came through in a roundabout way and is goingto get it to me for effectively $40 new so I went with it.

Ok GTHD then, whatever you want to call it, the next GT game. Ultimately it's like windows... one long line of products regardless of name.

Ah! I thought, like most things in life, they learned from the past.
If GT6 comes out and the 200 premiums are as good as the next "premium" then I am right. If we end up with another debacle (I wouldn't personally call it that) like this standard vs premium ordeal then you, obviously, are right. Time will tell

Well I don't think they have to wait for the past in this case... it's kind of a simultaneous lesson:

While looking at GT4 models, a higher bar was set for GT5 becase GT4 models weren't cutting it. The very fact a higher bar was set shows that GT4 and futureproofing didn't actually work and the lesson to be learned was that just doing what you do today, but more of it, isn't future proof in any way.

What they did with GT4 was just more of what they were doing then... but obviously what they are doing now is not just more of what they were doing then and, honestly, hopefully GT7 isn't just more of what they are doing today.

So yes, I do think the lesson should have been learned right then and there even though technically I suppose the "past" that they were to learn from, was simultaneously the present.

 

[Dapper]

So yes, I do think the lesson should have been learned right then and there even though technically I suppose the "past" that they were to learn from, was simultaneously the present.

And I think they learned what they needed to so that the models are good enough for the next game...
And you will have to wait until GT6 comes out to know the outcome.

 

[Peter]

Who said PD made any mistakes in the first place? Do you work at PD? D oyou know a guy, who knows a guy... For all we know, it was all their intention to send out GT5 with 200 premiums, and 800 bonuses form GT's past, updated to PS3 standards.



GT4's models weren't not cutting it. That was all the PS2 could possibly do. GTHD was supposed to be a minor improvement on GT4 for the PS3, but PD decided to go a leap further and change everything completely.

 

[Devedander]

And I think they learned what they needed to so that the models are good enough for the next game...
And you will have to wait until GT6 comes out to know the outcome.

Whether it ultimately pans out or not has little to do with whether the lesson is valid... surely you agree the GT4 cars are not up to part with what GT5 should be.

BTW for the record we will be waiting until the next hardware generation to see whether it comes to fruition as I don't see GT6 as basically GT5 Full Edition so same assets will be perfectly fine.

Who said PD made any mistakes in the first place? Do you work at PD? D oyou know a guy, who knows a guy... For all we know, it was all their intention to send out GT5 with 200 premiums, and 800 bonuses form GT's past, updated to PS3 standards.



GT4's models weren't not cutting it. That was all the PS2 could possibly do. GTHD was supposed to be a minor improvement on GT4 for the PS3, but PD decided to go a leap further and change everything completely.

GT4 cars obviously weren't cutting it or they wouldn't have set a new higher standard and gone with it. The very existence of premium cars shows that GT4s future proofing was not proof at all.

The mistake was trying to future proof... it didn't work as you can see the GT4 models have been very much rendered second class by the future that that they were supposed to be proofed against.

As I said, it's like adding todays hottest video card to your computer so it will last 5 years and be future proof only to find out in 6 months a new shader is created making your video card dated since it can't process these advanced effects.

In that case, your choice to futureproof was a mistake, as future proofing (unless you are psychic) usually is.

 

[LaBounti]

I did this math a few months ago. 1 car takes 6 months as we know.

2008 GT5P had 75 cars
2009 up to 150 cars
2010 up to 220ish cars

So they started on the main car modeling in mid 2007. So including a few cars from GTHD in 2006 the final cars were finished in 2007 to be in GT5P in 2008. GT 5 was supposed to come out "shortly after" GTpsp in 2009. So maybe they had 180 some cars ready in 2009. So they did not really get to work on the car roster until 2007 where they now had 3 years to make the 200 premiums. Before GT4 came the planning and concepts were in place, the physics weren't even done until 2009.

In a nut shell it did not take them 6 years to make 200 cars. Only 3. Thats just my thoughts. Seems a little selfish on Kaz's part to be too focused on what he wants and not what Sony wants, a complete game to be out much sooner.

 

[Dapper]

Whether it ultimately pans out or not has little to do with whether the lesson is valid... surely you agree the GT4 cars are not up to part with what GT5 should be.

BTW for the record we will be waiting until the next hardware generation to see whether it comes to fruition as I don't see GT6 as basically GT5 Full Edition so same assets will be perfectly fine.

We'll find out when GT6 comes out. When there is no difference in GT6 'premium' cars and recycled GT5's premiums then they will have future proofed GT5's premium cars. There is nothing you can say to make that not true.

 

[Lion-Face]

They all seem to be cars that were included in PSP, in addition to the GT4 models in that game. So it makes sense to reason that the cars were downgraded to a form of one-piece model for that game (compared to the multi-piece, interior'd Premiums), so PD saw fit to include both.

Er, wait... other P/S models are also ones that already had a model in GT4, and have had a scratch-built Premium for GT5. I assume the Standards are kept for the Used lots, if people want a discount (though yeah, I can't see why someone would want the Standard version of an identical Premium, other than completists).

In context of P/S models in GT5. As you have said, its for the models of car that are both in GT5 and GTPSP that has a Premium model. I would have thought that if you were to Transfer your cars from PSP to PS3 you get the Standard version of them, with the Premium models left for you to unlock/win/purchase in GT Life.

As for the topic at hand...The standard models don't bother me at all. I like the extra cars and I would rather have them then not. Even with the few restrictions, like no photo travel, or rim swaps etc. I think its a fine compromise for the time they had to implement the cars to the level they are along with all the other features in the game. I cannot wait for this game to come out!

 

[Devedander]

We'll find out when GT6 comes out. When there is no difference in GT6 'premium' cars and recycled GT5's premiums then they will have future proofed GT5's premium cars. There is nothing you can say to make that not true.

I guess our definitions of future proof are different then... I don't see GT6 as being anything more than a finished GT5 so it's not really the "future"... it's more like the v1.o release where as GT5 is like the Beta2.

I don't see the "future" until the next hardware generation. Even then it's not really future proof, it's just one step proof....

 

[Tornado]

The point is that it is ridiculous to think that an added bonus ruins the game in the first place.

It really isn't. I don't agree with the sentiment entirely, but it isn't particularly difficult to understand why it is expressed. By itself, even if the Standard cars offered everything that the Premiums had in regards to features, the mere existence of them by default creates a sizable problem in regards to consistency of presentation.

It would also probably help just a little bit if PD were actually presenting it as "200 Premiums, plus 800 Standards as a bonus!" rather than "1000 cars wow!"

GT4's models weren't not cutting it. That was all the PS2 could possibly do. GTHD was supposed to be a minor improvement on GT4 for the PS3, but PD decided to go a leap further and change everything completely.

No. What little they had done for GT:HD was already of the "changing everything completely" variety.
In fact, the GT4 models were barely cutting it (there is probably a better way to phrase this) when GT4 came out, because the way they were done was basically one of the last hold-outs of that style of modeling. Many other games had already switched over to the individual parts system of car creation because of the inherent benefits it allowed, particularly in regards to damage. The only major reason that the GT4 cars weren't anachronistic by the time GT4 ended up coming out was that they looked, for the most part, fantastic at the time.

We'll find out when GT6 comes out. When there is no difference in GT6 'premium' cars and recycled GT5's premiums then they will have future proofed GT5's premium cars. There is nothing you can say to make that not true.

Actually, if GT6 comes out as a PS3 game than it wouldn't actually be a case of future-proofing. There is a possibility that there would be minor quality differences like there was between GT3 and GT4 assets, but I doubt it because the two situations aren't really comparable (GT3 was an early PS2 game, but GT5 is not an early PS3 game, so its doubtful that there will be things learned for GT6 that PD didn't already learn for GT5). I agree that the idea of future-proofing is much more sound in this case than it ever was for GT4, though.

 

[Peter]

I did this math a few months ago. 1 car takes 6 months as we know.

2008 GT5P had 75 cars
2009 up to 150 cars
2010 up to 220ish cars

So they started on the main car modeling in mid 2007. So including a few cars from GTHD in 2006 the final cars were finished in 2007 to be in GT5P in 2008. GT 5 was supposed to come out "shortly after" GTpsp in 2009. So maybe they had 180 some cars ready in 2009. So they did not really get to work on the car roster until 2007 where they now had 3 years to make the 200 premiums. Before GT4 came the planning and concepts were in place, the physics weren't even done until 2009.

In a nut shell it did not take them 6 years to make 200 cars. Only 3. Thats just my thoughts. Seems a little selfish on Kaz's part to be too focused on what he wants and not what Sony wants, a complete game to be out much sooner.

Even if it did take 3 years only ot make 200 cars, the cars aren't the only thing they've got to do. They've got to model tracks, create a new physics engine, features, online, work on day/night and weather, and so on... GT5 is a completely new code.

 

[LaBounti]

Even if it did take 3 years only ot make 200 cars, the cars aren't the only thing they've got to do. They've got to model tracks, create a new physics engine, features, online, work on day/night and weather, and so on... GT5 is a completely new code.

I'm only talking about the car modelers. The tracks take even longer and are not done by the car modelers according to the manual in GT5P.

 

[Dapper]

Actually, if GT6 comes out as a PS3 game than it wouldn't actually be a case of future-proofing. There is a possibility that there would be minor quality differences like there was between GT3 and GT4 assets, but I doubt it because the two situations aren't really comparable (GT3 was an early PS2 game, but GT5 is not an early PS3 game, so its doubtful that there will be things learned for GT6 that PD didn't already learn for GT5). I agree that the idea of future-proofing is much more sound in this case than it ever was for GT4, though.

Ok. If they are used on a PS4... Nonetheless, GT6 hasn't come out, and it will be in the future.
And considering some of the photomode pics I can't imagine a drastic difference between GT5 premium models and anything else they produce.

 

[Tornado]

Even if it did take 3 years only ot make 200 cars, the cars aren't the only thing they've got to do. They've got to model tracks, create a new physics engine, features, online, work on day/night and weather, and so on... GT5 is a completely new code.

Game development teams haven't, with a few small exceptions, been omnidisplinary for at least a decade and a half. Modelers don't program, programmers don't model, artists don't do QA work, etc. And if what Labounti says is accurate for GT5 proper as well, PD also divides certain groups into even more specialized clusters. Therefore, even while the programmers went off and started working on the physics engine or online mode or whatever, the modelers were still working on making cars and tracks.

 

[GT_Prologue5]

Game development teams haven't, with a few small exceptions, been omnidisplinary for at least a decade and a half. Modelers don't program, programmers don't model, artists don't do QA work, etc. And if what Labounti says is accurate for GT5 proper as well, PD also divides certain groups into even more specialized clusters. Therefore, even while the programmers went off and started working on the physics engine or online mode or whatever, the modelers were still working on making cars and tracks.

You also have to take into consideration the time it takes to create the physics engine for each car on each track as accurately as it would happen. And you have sounds, music, car modeling, human voicing for the first time, this 3.5-5 year period (I don't care how long you see it) isn't half bad for a game with such an immensive release that's upcoming.

 

[Devedander]

You also have to take into consideration the time it takes to create the physics engine for each car on each track as accurately as it would happen. And you have sounds, music, car modeling, human voicing for the first time, this 3.5-5 year period (I don't care how long you see it) isn't half bad for a game with such an immensive release that's upcoming.

If they are truly making a different physics model for each car on each track they are seriously doing it wrong.

The point of a physics engine is you tell it the car specs and then it figures out what the car does on each track...

 

[Tenacious D]

Now that looks good 👍 And i'm not saying that just because i'm a standard car patriot. It doesn't look like a GT4 car, it really looks like a GT5 car.

Yea it looks pretty good, however it has nothing like the premiums though. Its cool though I still will enjoy them.

Careful. You're going to be called a fanboy if you dare to like the Standards.

So you know what does or doesn't ruin the game for someone else?
Let's not argue people's preferences, please.

So you insist it's reasonable for someone to declare how bad a game is before they've even tried it? Like, not "ruined for me," but "ruined" period?

 

[Tornado]

The point of a physics engine is you tell it the car specs and then it figures out what the car does on each track...

They do have to spend time making sure the tracks are modeled correctly in regards to traction and the like, though.

 

[DoctorFouad]

Whether it ultimately pans out or not has little to do with whether the lesson is valid... surely you agree the GT4 cars are not up to part with what GT5 should be.

BTW for the record we will be waiting until the next hardware generation to see whether it comes to fruition as I don't see GT6 as basically GT5 Full Edition so same assets will be perfectly fine.



GT4 cars obviously weren't cutting it or they wouldn't have set a new higher standard and gone with it. The very existence of premium cars shows that GT4s future proofing was not proof at all.

The mistake was trying to future proof... it didn't work as you can see the GT4 models have been very much rendered second class by the future that that they were supposed to be proofed against.

As I said, it's like adding todays hottest video card to your computer so it will last 5 years and be future proof only to find out in 6 months a new shader is created making your video card dated since it can't process these advanced effects.

In that case, your choice to futureproof was a mistake, as future proofing (unless you are psychic) usually is.

I have some questions to you (Develander)

1/ We know from kaz interviews, polyphony digital and sony marketing campaign that cars in GT5 are supposed to be future proof and even the PS3 have problems handling them correctly (I suppose they mean not enough image resolution and texture resolution due to lack of RAM and GPU power). But who told you that polyphony digital designed GT4 cars as future proofed cars ?
do you have a source for that info ? if yes would you please give it to us .

2/ "the mistake was trying to future proof" why is it a mistake ? I dont get it...GT5 cars are the best looking cars in the gaming industry, so would you please elaborate more on why is it a mistake to spend 6 months modelling each car to perfection ?

 

[JDMKING13]

Best looking cars for a very long time! From RDK, great shots man.

I like this also, from CoolColJ.

 

[brently300]

i vote dlc. and i hope that means that there will be full cars as standard, and packs for turning standard cars into premium cars. and in the end i hope to hace a non turbo 300zx as a premium.

 

[OHM_fusion]

I'm not sure that they were future-proofing the GT4 cars at the time. I don't recall them saying that. However, GT5 car models are pretty much future proofed. If you take a look at any premium car you see that the curves and dimensions of panels are perfectly modeled. There is not much more to add to the car exteriors, adding more polygons would be pointless. however, there is definitely room for improvement on the interiors.

Bottom line, don't expect huge leaps in terms of car models not only in GT6 , but also in other recent racing games.