Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[gaming25]

It's still food, and Chinese people probably eat it (they eat fruit and cookies) but it's just not on par with what people are thinking when they hear Chinese Food.

In the same way, standard cars are still cars, they are just not what PD has been showing and advertising in 99% oftheir promos...

When I hear cars, I think cars. If the game was 80 percent go karts, then your comparision wouldve made sense.

And most of the promos arent about the interior, they just show the cars driving around, so they havent mislead anyone. And also, ads dont say what a game doesnt have.

 

[MrBlueSky]

SONY isn't made of money like a certain American monopoly. Well, since "monopoly" apparently has no real meaning here, I'll use the term "market hostile mega-corporation." I'm sure this will satisfy Slip. Japan is in rough economic straits rather like Europe, perhaps better, perhaps worse, but not good. Which means that every Yen spent is quite valuable and needs to be justified.

You keep painting Sony as this small indie company that can barely make ends meet and cares more about it's customers than revenue. Sony is a massive media conglomerate (in the leagues of Viacom, Time Warner, CBS, General Electric, News Corp, etc) which produces TVs, cameras, radios, phones, movies, television shows, music, video games, and even chemicals.

To say that Sony is not made of money is just ridiculous.

 

[Devedander]

When I hear cars, I think cars. If the game was 80 percent go karts, then your comparision wouldve made sense.

And most of the promos arent about the interior, they just show the cars driving around, so they havent mislead anyone. And obviously, ads dont say what a game doesnt have.

When I see their promo material I see damage, cockpits, super shiny cars with high detail modeling then I see the number 1000.

See Kevin Buttler: make 500 cars a thousand - realistic damage, make it work. Without any disclaimers that to me says 1000 cars with realistic damage.

https://www.gtplanet.net/new-gran-turismo-5-tv-commercials-in-us-japan/

 

[Tornado]

Surely you mean that as in... passing off all the Skylines as one car or something. I mean, in reality they're all different cars so it'd be 1031 but you mean most players will only see it as 900, right?

I don't mean Skyline variations. I mean out and out duplicates.

Which they didnt mislead anyone since they released this information months ago.

No they didn't. The only limitation that they released about them was lack of cockpit view. There was never any news about lack of customization even compared to previous games. There was never any news about limitations of Photo Travel or Photomode. You are saying things that simply aren't true.

There hardly wont be any backlash at all.

No.

 

[analog]

You shouldnt have expected the premiums to be just like the standards. There is a reason that both of them are called something different.

Ofcourse there's a reason they're called differently Sherlock, the extend of the difference only became apparant during E3 this year, not in any of the previous years despite me and others knowing there ofcourse would be a difference, why else call them different?

Which they didnt mislead anyone since they released this information months ago.

But still advertise it without mentioning a word about it, so it's easy to see people are going to feel mislead, just like I felt mislead that a Standard car basically was a GT4 car and not related to interior-damage or whatever was the consensus on this forum before that.

There hardly wont be any backlash at all. Interiors isnt a big deal to most people given the amount of content this game has.

And you are most people aren't you? Believe me when I say plenty of those who are interested in a game like GT5 will care about it, even PD themselves care about seeing how much time and effort they spend modelling each Premium interior to the last stitch.

 

[gaming25]

T10 seemed to do exactly that with the showroom car models.



Was that Sony's last $80 million they put into GT5?



Actually usually it's the exact opposite... the very point of outsourcing is that even after said other company takes some profit, they are focusing on this type of business exclusively and probably in volume so can still do it cheaper than you could. It's the very essence of the outsource market and why things like temp agencies, per diem companies and contract jobs exist.


I know people who think Forza cars look impecable... considering what we know about how the standards are modeled, it's not possible they actually look as good as GT5P cars so it comes down just to how heavily he scrutinized them and his personal level of acceptance for "looks as good as".

If they wanted to outsource, then they would have. The problem with outsourcing is the work isnt as good as if the people intricately involved made it, I mean, look at the Forza 3 interiors. I also am very weary when companies outsource because it could potentially rip off the people who they have outsoucred to.

 

[Devedander]

If they wanted to outsource, then they would have. The problem with outsourcing is the work isnt as good as if the people intricately involved made it, I mean, look at the Forza 3 interiors. I also am very weary when companies outsource because it could potentially rip off the people who they have outsoucred to.

You would need more than one example to make such a generalized statement... outsourced products are often very high quality, it simply depends on your QA process and how tightly you specifiy the results in the contract.

Even with everything done in house, GT has had inconcsistencies and glitches.

And are you saying that outsourced premium models would have been worse than the standard GT4 models we have now?

 

[MadduckUK]

i usually dislike Toronado, but he is speaking a hell of a lot of sense tonight.. someone spiked my pint

 

[Spawinte]

You keep painting Sony as this small indie company that can barely make ends meet and cares more about it's customers than revenue. Sony is a massive media conglomerate (in the leagues of Viacom, Time Warner, CBS, General Electric, News Corp, etc) which produces TVs, cameras, radios, phones, movies, television shows, music, video games, and even chemicals.

To say that Sony is not made of money is just ridiculous.

It doesn't matter how big Sony is, they want to make a profit on GT5. There is a limit to how much they can charge for the game and to how many copies they may sell (only so many ps3 owners out there). Therefore there is a limit to how much you can spend developing a game and how long you can spend developing it.

 

[Tornado]

The problem with outsourcing is the work isnt as good as if the people intricately involved made it, I mean, look at the Forza 3 interiors.

That's not really true. Outsourcing work does not automatically equal poorer quality. That only happens when their aren't quality control checks in place to make sure the outsourced work is of the same quality as the in-house stuff.

 

[Le Mans 88]

GT5 is what it is, if if was perfect there would be no need for GT6.

As for outsourcing, perhaps T10 can do it for weather, day/night transitions etc.

 

[StogyBear]

I know that the forza argument is done and over with but I did some research and found a way to get a hold of one of the models. Just wanted to show you guys that the forza 3 models are in fact as good as the premiums. GT5's render engine is what makes these cars look so amazing. PD COULD have outsourced the modeling and in 5 years time we would HAVE had at least 600 premium quality cars. Not 200 premiums and 800 crap

I can't believe some of you said GT4 models are better than these.

Here are some renders I did (not real time obviously)

screenshot of the triangulated model in C4D.

Like i said before, outsourcing does not mean it's a bad model.

 

[gaming25]

No they didn't. The only limitation that they released about them was lack of cockpit view. There was never any news about lack of customization even compared to previous games. There was never any news about limitations of Photo Travel or Photomode. You are saying things that simply aren't true.

Saying that there is a lack of customization compared to the other games because of no wheel changing is a hyperbole at best. You still dont understand that a game wont tell you what it cant do, it doesnt make sense to do otherwise. I am also so tired of people talking about what he or she doesnt know about GT5. Most games dont hardly give as much details as GT5has given

 

[Devedander]

GT5 is what it is, if if was perfect there would be no need for GT6.

Right because perfecting what's in GT5 means there coudln't ever be new things to add into GT6 right?

 

[Devedander]

Saying that there is a lack of customization compared to the other games because of no wheel changing is a hyperbole at best. You still dont understand that a game wont tell you what it cant do, it doesnt make sense to do otherwise. I am also so tired of people talking about what he or she doesnt know about GT5. Most games dont hardly give as much details as GT5has given

Ironically GT5 does in fact tell you what you can't do:

And they DID post that standard cars DONT have cockpit view on the website.

Before you go making blanket statements, maybe make sure that what you say is actually blanket true....

And while it's unreasonable to expect a game to tell you EVERYTHYING it can't do, it is reasonable to expect them to mention shortcommings (that were available in previous versions) when relesaing info as imporatnt as standrard cars.

 

[LaBounti]

Like i said before, outsourcing does not mean it's a bad model.

Now lets see a real time video of the same car in game. I've see a replay of the F40 in Forza 3 and a replay in GT5P of the F40 and its like night and day. The Standard Veyron has more polygons on its engine than the in game F40 in Forza 3.

 

[StogyBear]

Now lets see a real time video of the same car in game. I've see a replay of the F40 in Forza 3 and a replay in GT5P of the F40 and its like night and day.

Drop it into the GT5 engine and it will look just as good as the premium models. If you read the post you would see that the reason forza 3 looks like **** is because of their lighting engine. The models are top notch

 

[Devedander]

Now lets see a real time video of the same car in game. I've see a replay of the F40 in Forza 3 and a replay in GT5P of the F40 and its like night and day. The Standard Veyron has more polygons on its engine than the in game F40 in Forza 3.

All that would prove is how good the graphics engine of the game is... which was not an outsourced product from either company so far as I know... thus the point remains that outsourcing the models does not necessarily equal a poor model.

 

[Tornado]

Saying that there is a lack of customization compared to the other games because of no wheel changing is a hyperbole at best.

Actually, no its not (wheel changing is a form of customization, and it was basically all that the GT series had even had to this point, and you can't do it with at least 4/5ths of the GT5 car lineup), but let's sidestep that for a second:
So, um, how about that Photo Travel then?
Or was your only defense "he made an exaggeration, therefore his point is invalid!"

You still dont understand that a game wont tell you what it cant do, it doesnt make sense to do otherwise. I am also so tired of people talking about what he or she doesnt know about GT5.

And the pot and kettle lived happily ever after.

 

[LaBounti]

All that would prove is how good the graphics engine of the game is... which was not an outsourced product from either company so far as I know... thus the point remains that outsourcing the models does not necessarily equal a poor model.

So then we are not talking about real world in game results but the overall quality of show room or photomode then. Then yes you are both right. The methods may not be the same from one company to the next. The method the team did on the Forza models was more hands on work than modeling from what I saw. That should be the new standard for all games imo.

 

[gaming25]

And they DID post that standard cars DONT have cockpit view on the website.

I never said that games dont ever tell you what they cant do. In fact, I even told you that they said that standard cars dont have cockpit view on their website.

Before you go making blanket statements, maybe make sure that what you say is actually blanket true....

And while it's unreasonable to expect a game to tell you EVERYTHYING it can't do, it is reasonable to expect them to mention shortcommings (that were available in previous versions) when relesaing info as imporatnt as standrard cars.

Most people dont care about changing the rims for standard cars for a GT game. Most people might care about the interior view for GT, which is why they talked about it on their website.

 

[Devedander]

So then we are not talking about real world in game results but the overall quality of show room or photomode then. Then yes you are both right. The methods may not be the same from one company to the next. The method the team did on the Forza models was more hands on work than modeling from what I saw. That should be the new standard for all games imo.

I think that's what we were talking about because the argument was PD didn't outsource modeling becuase outsourcing results in crappy models.

The renders off Forza models proves they are quite capable and that outsourcing did not yield some kind of unuseably bad product.

 

[LaBounti]

Drop it into the GT5 engine and it will look just as good as the premium models. If you read the post you would see that the reason forza 3 looks like **** is because of their lighting engine. The models are top notch

The F40 in game in Forza 3 has a 2D engine bay thats clear as day and its the only model used real time. It would look as good but the clear missing details will be obvious.

 

[Devedander]

I never said that games dont ever tell you what they cant do. In fact, I even told you that they said that standard cars dont have cockpit view on their website

What what what?

You still dont understand that a game wont tell you what it cant do, it doesnt make sense to do otherwise.

Most people dont care about changing the rims for standard cars for a GT game. Most people might care about the interior view for GT, which is why they talked about it on their website.

Whew!! That's good to know! You better go tell most people they don't c are about swapping rims, becuase most people seem to be pretty up in arms about it right now... how silly of them since they dont' care! You tell them what they care about and set the record straight ok?

 

[StogyBear]

The F40 in game in Forza 3 has a 2D engine bay thats clear as day and its the only model used real time. It would look as good but the clear missing details will be obvious.

Blame the xbox 360 for that not forza. All I'm saying is that the high res models in forza are just as good as the premiums. Obviously the 360 can't handle those models so they use a lower res version in game. But if you bring in the high res models into GT5, you'll see that they are in fact as good as the premiums.

 

[Peter]

Huh? FM3's h ires models as good as GT5's premiums? Well, of course they look good ,bu can't run like that in a real race, but as god as GT5's? Maybe not.

 

[Dravonic]

Like i said before, outsourcing does not mean it's a bad model.

You do know that making a real time model that looks good is quite different from making one that just looks good, right?

 

[analog]

Most people dont care about changing the rims for standard cars for a GT game.

Again, are you the spokesperson representing "most people"? If you don't care about changing the wheels (which many, including me, really liked to personalize their cars in previous games in a subtle way, in fact often the only way apart from some rather distasteful and generic rear spoilers) doesn't mean that most people don't mind it.
Right now, the fact Standard cars are even having this ability removed compared to the game they're essentially ported from seems another step backwards but since I don't care much for Standard cars at all it doesn't concern me very much, although even I was surprised by this fact, that doesn't mean that the people who did look forward to the Standard cars (the love that dareth not speak its name) aren't going to miss this feature.
You might seriously start to do some research into what "most people" actually want or don't care for, before you claim to know what it is and act as their spokesman, last time I checked I was still part of "most people" and you sure as hell don't speak for me.

 

[StogyBear]

You do know that making a real time model that looks good is quite different from making one that just looks good, right?

Dude! do you guys not read?! The M5 model is around 200k polygons, which according to KY is half the amount of polys as GT5 cars. These cars can run just fine in GT5 but they can't in Forza because the xbox360 is outdated and weak.

To my final point. If PD outsourced their modeling, we would have like 500 premiums right now.

 

[LaBounti]

Blame the xbox 360 for that not forza. All I'm saying is that the high res models in forza are just as good as the premiums. Obviously the 360 can't handle those models so they use a lower res version in game. But if you bring in the high res models into GT5, you'll see that they are in fact as good as the premiums.

I agree 100%. I was just unhappy with the F40 when I saw the engine bay(2D) and kinda venting my disappointment But they did a good job on most of the cars. The Fit just looks odd for some reason not like my friends Fit. The CTS V and the G37 look odd as well.