Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[magicayrton1]

Exactly!

I really dont care how cars looks behind my seat, Im not driving it looking back, im driving it looking FORWARD!

Really ****ed up thing!

Indeed, add to that the fact that in the rear view mirror we see... guess what?? Nothing!!? (GT5p) Shouldn't there be seats and maybe the rear screen??

 

[TorqueHappenS08]

Hey Torque, compare a Forza 3 car model to a GT5 Standard car model. Then tell me they're even remotely on the same level. If you think GT4 models are "perfect", I'm curious what GT5 models must represent .

Painted on shutlines in place of properly modelled, individual body panels is certainly not "straight from this Gen". I mean, you're welcome to have your opinion that GT4 models look better than FM3 models... but I'd love to know the qualifier for that other than "I like GT more".

I'm Sorry, Painted on shutlines or not, That GT4 model look's far more better, And i will explain how.

It all comes down to "Model detail" in the final stage of convincing some one.

Sure any one can model a car, And sure the Forza1/3 integra has "Separate" Body panels, But it just looks Bad, No matter what way you look at it, It looks like turn 10 just said hey "Make this car as fast as you can" Because they thought A, the car wasn't special enough to receive extra detail
. Or B, They just had to speed up the modeling,texture,rendereing process.

Point still stands The detail is just is not there, That GT4 model might be one large clump of a model "With painted shutlines" But it has the detail to make it look "Real".

Qualifier, The Forza 3 model, Does not look Like a integra DC2 ITR, Where as on the other hand, The GT4 model is Very accurate to the Real car, Even with painted on shutlines. If you compare all three pictures, You should be able to clearly see exactly what i am getting at.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Hey Torque, compare a Forza 3 car model to a GT5 Standard car model. Then tell me they're even remotely on the same level. If you think GT4 models are "perfect", I'm curious what GT5 models must represent .

Painted on shutlines in place of properly modelled, individual body panels is certainly not "straight from this Gen". I mean, you're welcome to have your opinion that GT4 models look better than FM3 models... but I'd love to know the qualifier for that other than "I like GT more".

I think you can go ahead and chalk that one up to fanboyism.

I am very anxious to see how the standard cars will compare in the released GT5.

I will give PD credit for the correct stock wheel modeling in the GT4 screenshot.

 

[JDMKING13]

I think you can go ahead and chalk that one up to fanboyism.

I am very anxious to see how the standard cars will compare in the released GT5.

I will give PD credit for the correct stock wheel modeling in the GT4 screenshot.

👎 Everyone has to be a fanboy? What he said is 100% correct. I have Forza3 and find myself not driving many cars because they don't look correct and it throws my immersion off while playing. Yea Forza3 cars look good, but some are not model right and you can clearly see it if you have the game.

 

[Max_DC]

So let me get this straight...standard models, are the High quality models of the cars from the GT4 car selection screen... Which are almost comparable to Forza 3 models... Now they are even higher quality, And people are complaining? I'm sorry but no.

GT4 boasted, the most accurately modeled car's i have ever seen in a racing game,
They were PERFECT, Modeled down to a T with the real life counter parts, Go to a chevorlet classic show room and look at the classics, Thoughs models look like they are Straight from this Gen, How can you complain about car's that look that good? And thats from a PS2!, Seriously...

And GT5 is not the only car that ported models from past games. If your a forza gamer(me) You would know what i'm talking about.

Cars like the srt4,ford focus,Honda civic, Acura integra, honda S2000,Nissan skyline R32 GTR and a whole lot more Are all ported from Forza 1,also forza 2, and now they are in 3, While the Nissan skyline BNR34 GTR, mitsubitshi lancer EVO 9, subaru impreza STI, Were all redone from scratch. sad example...



That same flat dull looking DC2 From forza 1, same weird shape, same dull head lights that look like a flat texture..Just does not look like an integra. It's a bit sad, the Dc2 ITR is one of my favorate cars, and this is the most poor recreation i have ever seen in a game.(Big image)


Super accurate DC2 from GT4. Keep in mind this is playstation 2. This recreation, is Beautiful. You can tell PD spent time on this model. it is very accurate.



Real life image of a DC2 ITR.

Most cars in Forza 3 look great. Some don't. And while I agree that the car in GT5p, GT5 ( and to a certain degree also GT4 ) look better than those in Forza 3 form the outside, the real driving experience ( or what comes the closest in videogames ) requires an inside perspective - or when was the last time you drove your car by flying 3 m behind your car or sitting on the bonnet ?
Yeah that's what I thought, so my personal problem is, that there are obviously 800 cars without that perspective. Which is a kind of letdown although I see the difficulty for PD to achieve that load of work.

They could have tried to focus on dashboards only in 1000 or 500 cars instead of full interiors in 200 and none in 800 ( which is probably a bad deal for 90% of the players since the backseats are not that important in a racing game although I also like that attention to detail - but just as long as they don't sacrifice more important aspects, which they did here imo ).

Obviously too late for that, so I suggest : ( free ? ) DLC : dashboard views for all the other cars, no premium interiors, just Forza 3 style dashboards.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

👎 Everyone has to be a fanboy? What he said is 100% correct. I have Forza3 and find myself not driving many cars because they don't look correct and it throws my immersion off while playing. Yea Forza3 cars look good, but some are not model right and you can clearly see it if you have the game.

I have both games and play them.
While I agree, PD is more intricate with the exact lines and details of the cars, wheel modeling I noted, as far as pure looks the FM3 cars are better.........IMO. And they should look better. GT4 is a PS2 game.


"they don't look correct and it throws my immersion off while playing."

I don't think I've heard that one before.

 

[Strittan]

I'm Sorry, Painted on shutlines or not, That GT4 model look's far more better, And i will explain how.

It all comes down to "Model detail" in the final stage of convincing some one.

Sure any one can model a car, And sure the Forza1/3 integra has "Separate" Body panels, But it just looks Bad, No matter what way you look at it, It looks like turn 10 just said hey "Make this car as fast as you can" Because they thought A, the car wasn't special enough to receive extra detail
. Or B, They just had to speed up the modeling,texture,rendereing process.

Point still stands The detail is just is not there, That GT4 model might be one large clump of a model "With painted shutlines" But it has the detail to make it look "Real".

Qualifier, The Forza 3 model, Does not look Like a integra DC2 ITR, Where as on the other hand, The GT4 model is Very accurate to the Real car, Even with painted on shutlines. If you compare all three pictures, You should be able to clearly see exactly what i am getting at.

Agree. I think the keywords here are photo-realism and accuracy. Which Forza lacks in my opinion.

 

[Owen.C93]

Should we be comparing ourselves to Forza though? 5 Years on from GT4, which is what we should be looking at.

 

[analog]

Most cars in Forza 3 look great. Some don't. And while I agree that the car in GT5p, GT5 ( and to a certain degree also GT4 ) look better than those in Forza 3 form the outside, the real driving experience ( or what comes the closest in videogames ) requires an inside perspective - or when was the last time you drove your car by flying 3 m behind your car or sitting on the bonnet ?
Yeah that's what I thought, so my personal problem is, that there are obviously 800 cars without that perspective. Which is a kind of letdown although I see the difficulty for PD to achieve that load of work.

They could have tried to focus on dashboards only in 1000 or 500 cars instead of full interiors in 200 and none in 800 ( which is probably a bad deal for 90% of the players since the backseats are not that important in a racing game although I also like that attention to detail - but just as long as they don't sacrifice more important aspects, which they did here imo ).

Obviously too late for that, so I suggest : ( free ? ) DLC : dashboard views for all the other cars, no premium interiors, just Forza 3 style dashboards.

Totally agree, and for those pointing out Kaz doesn't like DLC, he probably isn't very keen on this compromise situation ( planned from the start or not ) either being the perfectionist he seems to be.

And watching that youtube-clip of the guy ( forgot the name, sorry ) explaining this whole cockpit-issue from his perspective which was until very recently also a possibility I considered, especially the bit pointing out that Prologue had a more limited view than the more recent Premium videos and the fact they mentioned camera views ( on the US site ) which sort of coincides with the recent announcement of interior Photo Mode options.

But again, I'm far too cynical by nature to start hoping again they will include it and just "accept" for now they won't be until further notice.
So still game over for me regarding this issue unfortunately.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

Agree. I think the keywords here are photo-realism and accuracy. Which Forza lacks in my opinion.

photo-realism ?

One look at that GT4 roofline and that's out the window.

You mean to tell me you honestly believe that?

Come on guys, I love GT too, but I'm not willing to prostitute myself for it.

 

[JDMKING13]

I have both games and play them.
While I agree, PD is more intricate with the exact lines and details of the cars, wheel modeling I noted, as far as pure looks the FM3 cars are better.........IMO. And they should look better. GT4 is a PS2 game.


"they don't look correct and it throws my immersion off while playing."

I don't think I've heard that one before.

You ever watch a replay of you ripping down Fujimi with a s2000(my fav car) looks terrible they jacked that car up so much, thats why it throws of my immersion, It makes me not want to drive the car. If you rather have inaccurate car models that look good thats cool, but not me If i drive a S2000 in a game it should look like one 👍

 

[TorqueHappenS08]

photo-realism ?

One look at that GT4 roofline and that's out the window.

You mean to tell me you honestly believe that?

Come on guys, I love GT too, but I'm not willing to prostitute myself for it.

.... He means how the entire car look's as a hole.

The way the paint mixed with the lighting gives the car a realistic Look.
The way the Head lights look like real head lights.
The way the Wheels look like the actual wheels.
The way the Car looks almost like a photo of the real car.
It's all about the illusion of photo realism, Which is what what PD did very well.
Creates the illusion that the car look's "Real"

 

[analog]

.... He means how the entire car look's as a hole.

The way the paint mixed with the lighting gives the car realistic Look.
The way the Head lights look like real head lights.
The way the Wheels look like the actual wheels.
The way the Car looks almost like a photo of the real car.
It's all about the illusion of photo realism, Which is what what PD did very well.
Creates the illusion that the car look's "Real"

That's after all what it boils down to, smoke and mirrors to create an illusion.
Even an illusion trying to replicate real life, the gaming industry isn't that dissimilar to showbiz.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I'm Sorry, Painted on shutlines or not, That GT4 model look's far more better, And i will explain how.

It all comes down to "Model detail" in the final stage of convincing some one.

Sure any one can model a car, And sure the Forza1/3 integra has "Separate" Body panels, But it just looks Bad, No matter what way you look at it, It looks like turn 10 just said hey "Make this car as fast as you can" Because they thought A, the car wasn't special enough to receive extra detail
. Or B, They just had to speed up the modeling,texture,rendereing process.

Point still stands The detail is just is not there, That GT4 model might be one large clump of a model "With painted shutlines" But it has the detail to make it look "Real".

Qualifier, The Forza 3 model, Does not look Like a integra DC2 ITR, Where as on the other hand, The GT4 model is Very accurate to the Real car, Even with painted on shutlines. If you compare all three pictures, You should be able to clearly see exactly what i am getting at.

Other than the lights (which I will agree look flat and way off)... the Forza model has been modeled on a level entirely above what GT4 is capable of. And that GT4 model is what we're stuck with (so far from video evidence) in GT5. The lighting looks fake on that Forza shot... because it's a car selection screen. Plop that car down in a real setting similar to the GT4 Photomode shot and it'll look far less unnatural. I took a few quick looks with GIS and youtube and Forza's DC2 looks good. Far more real in motion... of course, my issue with Forza's odd lack of a sense of weight to the cars during replays is still evident :-/.

I loaded up GT4 last night to have another go... and forgot how it's aged. It looks good in motion, but spend any amount of time to look at a car model and time hasn't been kind. They don't have to be perfect; it's a 2004 game, after all. What's disheartening is that they're showing up, (so far) largely unchanged, in a 2010 game. Even if all the textures are updated in time for release... the limits of a one-piece model can't be overcome (switchable body parts, physical damage).

I'm a GT fan, but I'm not going to look the other way at last-gen assets, I'm going to call them as I see them. Not make excuses for them or declare them perfect. Even the Premiums can't be labelled "perfect"... but they are so ridiculously good I can't see a need to update them for at least another half-dozen years

 

[SuperCobraJet]

You ever watch a replay of you ripping down Fujimi with a s2000(my fav car) looks terrible they jacked that car up so much, thats why it throws of my immersion, It makes me not want to drive the car. If you rather have inaccurate car models that look good thats cool, but not me If i drive a S2000 in a game it should look like one 👍

As far as what I would rather have, that would be GT5 last fall with 1000 premium cars. I wouldn't have to play FM3. Obviously thats irrelevant.

For me they don't look anywhere near poor to distraction, no.

When I'm racing, I'm immersed in only two things:

All that encompasses: 1; passing the car in front of me,
and 2; if I'm in first, keeping the car behind me, behind me.

Apparently we have different priorities. I don't recall ever thinking about what the car looked like, even in the replays, except maybe the wheels, and livery changes in FM3.

.... He means how the entire car look's as a hole.

The way the paint mixed with the lighting gives the car a realistic Look.
The way the Head lights look like real head lights.
The way the Wheels look like the actual wheels.
The way the Car looks almost like a photo of the real car.
It's all about the illusion of photo realism, Which is what what PD did very well.
Creates the illusion that the car look's "Real"

I already agreed with the fact PD does a much better job of modeling the car in detail and that definitely lends itself to one side of realism. For instance the paint is closer too.

I don't however agree, that overcomes the pure graphical representation of the FM3 car.

 

[Spagetti69]

👎 Everyone has to be a fanboy? What he said is 100% correct. I have Forza3 and find myself not driving many cars because they don't look correct and it throws my immersion off while playing. Yea Forza3 cars look good, but some are not model right and you can clearly see it if you have the game.

Out of curiousity what view do you drive in?
Thanks.

 

[Strittan]

Other than the lights (which I will agree look flat and way off)... the Forza model has been modeled on a level entirely above what GT4 is capable of. And that GT4 model is what we're stuck with (so far from video evidence) in GT5.

We're not stuck with anything. We have 200 cars which has been modeled on a level entirely above what Forza 3 is capable of, and those 200 cars are the only cars I care about.

 

[Devedander]

We're not stuck with anything. We have 200 cars which has been modeled on a level entirely above what Forza 3 is capable of, and those 200 cars are the only cars I care about.

I agree that the 200 premium cars appear every bit to outshine anything we have seen modeled in a console game to date (possibly even PC game?).

And it's good you only care about those 200 cars... too bad it's not a stance shared by everyone.

 

[JDMKING13]

As far as what I would rather have, that would be GT5 last fall with 1000 premium cars. I wouldn't have to play FM3. Obviously thats irrelevant.

For me they don't look anywhere near poor to distraction, no.

When I'm racing, I'm immersed in only two things:

All that encompasses: 1; passing the car in front of me,
and 2; if I'm in first, keeping the car behind me, behind me.

Apparently we have different priorities. I don't recall ever thinking about what the car looked like, even in the replays, except maybe the wheels, and livery changes in FM3.

No prob man its all good, yea i love passing and keeping cars behind me, but i also love the automobile. Watching my laps in replay mode to me is very important. Watching a replay in GT gives me that same satisfaction when i see a nice car in real life. In GT replays you can see the car dancing around the track and it is a beautiful to watch. The car looks and performs like is real life counterpart and you can gain a lot of appreciation in the same way when you see that car in real life. I don't get this in Forza3 especially when they jack up the car models makes me not want to watch replay at all.

 

[JDMKING13]

Out of curiousity what view do you drive in?
Thanks.

Cockpit! If no cockpit then bumper

 

[Strittan]

I agree that the 200 premium cars appear every bit to outshine anything we have seen modeled in a console game to date (possibly even PC game?).

And it's good you only care about those 200 cars... too bad it's not a stance shared by everyone.

Yeah, I know.

EDIT: By the way, the only game I think is close to GT5's graphics, is iRacing.

 

[sher_da_putt]

I have to agree with torque, theres always something about forza 3 that gives it away that its only a game. GT4 even though its like 5 years old now, can make you see realism.

 

[sher_da_putt]

Imagine that, but with a GT5 track, and the cars upscaled, with GT5 lighting, and Highdeff textures. Standard cars are still going to be amazing

 

[JDMKING13]

Imagine that, but with a GT5 track, and the cars upscaled, with GT5 lighting, and Highdeff textures. Standard cars are still going to be amazing

I agree! I cannot wait to try one of those standard cars 1st car will be Integra Type R 00 cant wait.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

I still believe by the time the game comes out the standard cars will be on par with FM3.

The exterior that is.

 

[Devedander]

Imagine that, but with a GT5 track, and the cars upscaled, with GT5 lighting, and Highdeff textures. Standard cars are still going to be amazing

Something closer to this...

 

[JDMKING13]

Something closer to this...

D i like that picture, but i know the standard cars will look better than that 👍

 

[Tenacious D]

I don't recall ever thinking about what the car looked like, even in the replays, except maybe the wheels, and livery changes in FM3.

Well, that's you. In either this thread or another, someone posted the Forza renditions of the Honda S2000, which are ugly and incorrect. I've always hated them, and complained about them sporadically because the Forza fans on every board - including this one - called me a whiner for it. And there are other examples of how cruddy their modeling is in every version. I also dislike how big and fat the Supra MkIII looks, my personal car, while in GT4, both cars looks sleek and slender as they should.

GT5 Standard
800+ Standard cars with no viewable interior and no modelled dashboard view, textured headlights with low beams only

I don't know who started this, but GT4 has modeled headlights. I took these shots a bit ago, and am about to get back to it because this game is still so good in spite of the archaic PS2 we play it on. I'm also tickled that the transfer to Photobucket only took an hour or less, even with some photo chopping. And it would have been more like 40 minutes, but I left the images too large and had to do some editing and transfer twice. I can just imagine the same thing in that other game taking 6 to 8 hours... *shudder*

These are extreme vlose-ups, so if they make you ill, you need a slap with a trout.

 

[Dravonic]

I don't know who started this, but GT4 has modeled headlights. I took these shots a bit ago, and am about to get back to it because this game is still so good in spite of the archaic PS2 we play it on. I'm also tickled that the transfer to Photobucket only took an hour or less, even with some photo chopping. And it would have been more like 40 minutes, but I left the images too large and had to do some editing and transfer twice. I can just imagine the same thing in that other game taking 6 to 8 hours... *shudder*

These are extreme vlose-ups, so if they make you ill, you need a slap with a trout.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/stryker99/headlites-01.jpg[IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/stryker99/headlites-02.jpg[IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/stryker99/headlites-03.jpg[IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/stryker99/headlites-04.jpg

Yep some of them are (maybe the majority?) but not all of them are entirely textured.

Anyway, you've shown a standard car's headlights (even though that evo is premium now), now on to a premium's:

WHY PD? WHY?

 

[gtracedriver]

You know one thing I was wondering about this standard/premium thing is that people are saying that the standards are ports from GT4.

Now seeing the picture of the standard cars on the main GT site the Lamborghini Countach is labeled as a standard but this car wasn't in GT4 only in GTPSP so I wonder why they wouldn't model that cars cockpit view. Since it is a new car.

They only said that standard models will be from previous GT games.

The world like port or up-scaling is nothing but referring to this and is very misleading. For standard models they will use the assets they already have instead of making it from scratch. The textures, tessellations and other things will be used to take advantage of PS3 as PS2, PSP are very limited