Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[ic3d3mon]

In dollars PS3 has sold more.

sony initially lost 250 dollars per console back in 2006, now they are finally making profit on hardware

 

[Akira AC]

In dollars PS3 has sold more.

BTW is just sales for NA,and in total the 360 came out before the PS3 so is a clear advantages,and the people buy new 360 to cover RRD so that also cover some of the sells there

 

[steve30x]

I honestly dont see what all this moaning is about anyway. There has been videos and pictures showing the cars but who here knows exactly what the quality of the final and finished cars in GT5 will look like? How do you guys know that the pictures and cars shown so far are the quality that will be in the game?

 

[Akira AC]

I honestly dont see what all this moaning is about anyway. There has been videos and pictures showing the cars but who here knows exactly what the quality of the final and finished cars in GT5 will look like? How do you guys know that the pictures and cars shown so far are the quality that will be in the game?

because in game screenshots of premium cars,also the videos from E3 and videos from nurburgring 24 h

 

[alonsof1fan91]

Hm, do you think that those standard cars will become premium in future GT titles?

I mean, GT5 isn`t even out, GT6 will take some years again, in that timeframe we will see alot of new cars. PD have to make them premium too, maybe they will even add some missing classic cars (f.e. old Ferraris).
I don`t want to sound pessimistic, but I can`t imagine that except some race cars (Group C cars, LMPs) those cars will become premium in future GT titles :?

 

[Tenacious D]

That is a good point and all, but there is a problem. Games always sell the most when they're new, then the sales settle out and lessen over the next few years. GT3 has had way more time in that "settle" period, therefore skewing the sales per year number in favor of GT4. Now if we could, say, compare the 2 games' sales after the same number of years, that would be a much more fair comparison. 👍

Dude. Scaff is doing just that. That's how statistical analysis works.

I'll add one more piece to this puzzle. GT4 was the biggest selling PS2 game for the first six months of 2005. In fact, the biggest selling game among all video games according to NPD.

I think the problem is that you guys who don't like the whole Standard Car issue - heck, a few hate Kaz for it and want nothing to do with Gran Turismo now - are acting like we're insane for being fine with the matter. You seem to believe that if we don't criticize GT5 that no one will. Furthermore, that Kaz might see big sales of GT5 as a green light to produce a GT6 which has almost nothing but 2000 Standard cars and tracks. And not a driver view in sight.

I see too many posts that resemble Cobra's, which are arguments based on raw, unthought out bases: GT3 sold 14 million, GT4 only 11 million. Ergo, GT4 less popular. Completely ignore three years of additional sales. Make sense? No.

I posted images of GT4 headlights clearly modeled in 3D. Dravonic posts delicious images of Prologue headlights. Naturally, Prologue looked leaps and jumps better. But were they using the same game engine? Not a trick question, guys.

Some of you guys have stated that Kaz should have hired a lot more people, completely ignoring the fact that SONY funds the project, Kaz can't print his own Yen, and production workers won't work for free. And then there's the argument that he should have farmed out work. Well, not only is it Kaz's decision to keep it in-house, farming out work would be even more expensive. An outside production house isn't going to do it for the cost of labor, you know. At least I hope you know.

Some have said that Kaz lied to us, completely ignoring the remarks made in interviews last year in which he stated that there would be two tiers of cars, and Standard cars wouldn't receive any damage or have interior view. And after a month or two, when things had settled down, he'd say it again and we'd start right back up. Someone posted that Kaz should just zip his lip on that issue until E3. Good grief, how can you forget those debates?!

Some have said that the Standard cars - and possibly Standard tracks - should be dropped and have only Premium content. As if that wouldn't start an even bigger uproar. You don't take goodies away from people without a backlash, even if you don't like it as much. Just ask Turn 10, makers of Forza.

Hey, we all want 1000 Premium cars. But arguing that the Standard cars are utter crap, when you haven't really seen the Standard cars, on a game which is still four months from release, is judging on the basis of nothing but your preconceived notions. How is that any better than the cockpit holdouts? Also not a trick question.

As I posted, Sean Cole from ISR who spent time with the game hands on, as well as the Polyphony rep, said that the Standard cars looked to be Prologue quality. Were any of us there to say any different? Evidently, they aren't too shabby.

Maybe us fans of the game are living in la la land with rose color glasses. Oh well. If you get the game, you hate it and we love it, oh well some more.

But don't act like your side is the only voice of reason in this debate. If anything, I think our side has had a bit more actual substance and evidence than yours. Hey, by all means be critical. But be reasonably critical. I'm sure Kaz is agonizing over this and would much rather have things otherwise. He did what he could for us. Some of us have the nerve to be grateful. Oh well again.

 

[Dravonic]

I posted images of GT4 headlights clearly modeled in 3D. Dravonic posts delicious images of Prologue headlights. Naturally, Prologue looked leaps and jumps better. But were they using the same game engine? Not a trick question, guys.

Game engine and game assets are very different things. Car models are assets and the assets are a direct port except maybe for the textures. So as far as we know, the headlights you posted will look a little bit better, with better reflections and maybe textures, but they will still be incredibly less detailed and more blocky than the ones in premium cars.

Some have said that Kaz lied to us, completely ignoring the remarks made in interviews last year in which he stated that there would be two tiers of cars, and Standard cars wouldn't receive any damage or have interior view. And after a month or two, when things had settled down, he'd say it again and we'd start right back up. Someone posted that Kaz should just zip his lip on that issue until E3. Good grief, how can you forget those debates?!

Because as far as my memory is concerned they never happened. I sure remember Kaz describing some differences between the premium and standard cars and the heated debate they arose, but you'll need to give me some proof if you want to convince me he said standard cars were direct GT4 ports with no cockpit.

I sure as hell remember him saying GT5 cars had 500k polygons in average. But oh, he forgot to mention only 20% of them do. No problem, I'm sure it only slipped his mind...

 

[steve30x]

because in game screenshots of premium cars,also the videos from E3 and videos from nurburgring 24 h

That doesnt prove that they will look like that. I doubt the cars we saw so far are what they will look like in the game when its released. What we have seen so far is probably beta code and beta cars.

but they will still be incredibly less detailed and more blocky
I sure as hell remember him saying GT5 cars had 500k polygons in average. But oh, he forgot to mention only 20% of them do. No problem, I'm sure it only slipped his mind...

Exactly where is your proof of this? I havent seen what the cars in the released game looks like except from the cars I have seen in the game shows , videos and pictures which are 90% possible to be the unfinished cars

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I'm open to the idea that the Standard cars we've seen in the videos released by PD aren't what we'll receive in the final product... but you have to admit that's a long shot. They're showing them a few months before release... and it was their first time showing the lower tier to us. Unless that Standard car video is showing us months-old footage... how much time do you think they'll have to update 800 cars?

Plus, if they have been updating some of them (which would've needed to start a while ago to hit the Nov 2 release date)... don't you think they'd show us the updated ones?

 

[steve30x]

I'm open to the idea that the Standard cars we've seen in the videos released by PD aren't what we'll receive in the final product... but you have to admit that's a long shot. They're showing them a few months before release... and it was their first time showing the lower tier to us. Unless that Standard car video is showing us months-old footage... how much time do you think they'll have to update 800 cars?

Plus, if they have been updating some of them (which would've needed to start a while ago to hit the Nov 2 release date)... don't you think they'd show us the updated ones?

Those cars could be from a beta build six to twelve months old. Theres a big possibility that the standard cars will look a lot better.

 

[Dravonic]

Exactly where is your proof of this? I havent seen what the cars in the released game looks like except from the cars I have seen in the game shows , videos and pictures which are 90% possible to be the unfinished cars

You want to play the "game is not released yet" game. I've been there, done that, and got very disappointed in the end. Go ahead if you want, but I'm done with it.

As for kaz 500.000 polygons statement, here it is:

We had maybe 300 polygons in a car in the first game. Now we have about 500,000 polygons in each car. Back then, pieces of the car were more like symbols. Now they are real and reflect light.

Source. You can find countless more sources if you google it.

 

[JDMKING13]

Those cars could be from a beta build six to twelve months old. Theres a big possibility that the standard cars will look a lot better.

If you saw that FT-86 concept video it was drifting against the Akina 86 on Fuji you can see that the windows were blacked out juts like a standard car, however it looked good compared to the premium FT-86 only difference I can tell from the short clip was the 86 did not have the interior view. You could not see the interior like you could see the FT-86.

 

[steve30x]

Im not getting my hopes up but what Kaz said and what you see then might be two different things. Also I wasnt asking for proof of what Kaz said> I was asking for your proof of what the cars will actually look like when the game is released , because the existing videos , gameplay videos or pictures dont prove what the final game looks like.

If you saw that FT-86 concept video it was drifting against the Akina 86 on Fuji you can see that the windows were blacked out juts like a standard car, however it looked good compared to the premium FT-86 only difference I can tell from the short clip was the 86 did not have the interior view. You could not see the interior like you could see the FT-86.

That still doesnt prove anything.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Those cars could be from a beta build six to twelve months old. Theres a big possibility that the standard cars will look a lot better.

...again, do you see what I'm asking? If they were going to show us the Standard cars, which in the video are pretty clearly ported over GT4 models... wouldn't they rather show us some that are more recent? Instead of a half-year old version or older, if they've been improving the quality of the Standards, I would think they'd be trying to show them off, to give less of a gap in quality between the two tiers.

There's definitely a possibility they're from a fairly old build. But I wonder why PD wouldn't want to put their best foot forward in regards to the Standards.

 

[steve30x]

Im wasting my time here really. No matter what I say you guys just want to think that its 100% proof of the actual quality of the cars in GT5 from what you have seen so far.

...again, do you see what I'm asking? If they were going to show us the Standard cars, which in the video are pretty clearly ported over GT4 models... wouldn't they rather show us some that are more recent? Instead of a half-year old version or older, if they've been improving the quality of the Standards, I would think they'd be trying to show them off, to give less of a gap in quality between the two tiers.

There's definitely a possibility they're from a fairly old build. But I wonder why PD wouldn't want to put their best foot forward in regards to the Standards.

Thats kind of like saying they should have told us what all the features in the game are but we dont know half of whats in the game.

But what do I know.

 

[JDMKING13]

...again, do you see what I'm asking? If they were going to show us the Standard cars, which in the video are pretty clearly ported over GT4 models... wouldn't they rather show us some that are more recent? Instead of a half-year old version or older, if they've been improving the quality of the Standards, I would think they'd be trying to show them off, to give less of a gap in quality between the two tiers.

There's definitely a possibility they're from a fairly old build. But I wonder why PD wouldn't want to put their best foot forward in regards to the Standards.

Well the clip was only 33 sec and knowing PD they usually show off a great clip when doing trailers. They probably didn't want to show the full information on the standards, in all fairness we really know nothing about standard cars.

 

[Akira AC]

Well the clip was only 33 sec and knowing PD they usually show off a great clip when doing trailers. They probably didn't want to show the full information on the standards, in all fairness we really know nothing about standard cars.

I bet Cr.1'000.000 that SlipZtrEm will say something like

"yes we know because we saw the trailer duh "

Forza fan

 

[Spagetti69]

Yeah we saw the trailer.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Aha, brilliant Akira. Go take your shoddy English and lack of basic understanding of posts elsewhere. I've even said I prefer GT on numerous occasions. It's a shame it's far too complicated of an idea for people to understand others can like something and still be critical.

I take it you all ignored the "I'm open to the idea that the Standard cars we've seen in the videos released by PD aren't what we'll receive in the final product" part of my post?

Typical.

 

[Akira AC]

Aha, brilliant Akira. Go take your shoddy English and lack of basic understanding of posts elsewhere. I've even said I prefer GT on numerous occasions. It's a shame it's far too complicated of an idea for people to understand others can like something and still be critical.

I take it you all ignored the "I'm open to the idea that the Standard cars we've seen in the videos released by PD aren't what we'll receive in the final product" part of my post?

Typical.

I was right

 

[Antti-san]

Those cars could be from a beta build six to twelve months old. Theres a big possibility that the standard cars will look a lot better.

Wishful thinking, methinks. I doubt those 800 standard cars will magically transform into premium quality ones with interiors when we turn the game on for the first time!

 

[eSZee]

In dollars PS3 has sold more.

If the systems released at the same time, then yes, those stats would mean something. 360 had a 1 year head start, however.

 

[AleksandarSRB]

Stop talking about PS3 vs 360 battle!!!! This is thread about standard/premium car's....

 

[steve30x]

Wishful thinking, methinks. I doubt those 800 standard cars will magically transform into premium quality ones with interiors when we turn the game on for the first time!

Did I say those 800 cars will turn out to be premium quality cars?

I know I said they might not be as bad quality as you all are crying about (as usual you all are ungrateful)

 

[eSZee]

Did I say those 800 cars will turn out to be premium quality cars?

I know I said they might not be as bad quality as you all are crying about (as usual you all are ungrateful)

So they release the standard video, with cars already sub-par to premium cars and to top it off they showed us models that were far behind in quality of their current build of standard cars? PD most likely waited as long as possible before showing us standard cars, to make them look as good as they could make them. Why would they go and show outdated models?

 

[Antti-san]

Did I say those 800 cars will turn out to be premium quality cars?

I know I said they might not be as bad quality as you all are crying about (as usual you all are ungrateful)

Sorry, I should have said: "I doubt those 800 standard cars will magically look a lot better when we turn the game on for the first time!" instead.

Seriously, there are four months left until release - 800+ GT4 models aren't going to change into anything else anymore.

 

[Shinu]

They can tweak models with turbo smoothing (remove square edges) and so on. When you think about it, now when most of the staff is free, they can upgrade them.

One man 8 working hours is enough to upgrade quite low poly (ps2 4k) model with basic tools. Especially when you have all the reference and resources you need.

In short, if they (3D modelers) don't have anything else to do until launch, they can do a lot.


Don't get me wrong, there wont be a miracle, but i think standard car video is quite old.

GT4 cars are ~4k poly and that's ~ 50-100x less then prologue/GT5. With few clicks PD could up the poly count and remove some of the squareness. It would be strange is they wouldn't use PS3 power to there advantage.

 

[steve30x]

They can tweak models with turbo smoothing (remove square edges) and so on. When you think about it, now when most of the staff is free, they can upgrade them.

One man 8 working hours is enough to upgrade quite low poly (ps2) model with basic tools. Especially when you have all the reference and resources you need.

In short, if they (3D modelers) don't have anything else to do until launch, they can do a lot.

Your wasting your time. They have their minds made up that the 800 models will be of GT4 quality. I realy dont care if they are GT4 quality though. Even if they are GT4 quality its guaranteed they will have a lot less jaggies and look a bit smoother which is good enough for me.

 

[Cobra_NZ]

My well thought out post was pulled apart into just a few points that could be interpreted differently to try to cast doubt and discredit. Now we've descended into just some foolish childish arguments, again. It's all good, what I wrote opened some more eyes and that was my intention.

Just to reiterate, from a development, business model, financial success and increasing fan base, the last 6 years are a far cry from the 6 years that comprised GT3, GTC, GT4P, GT4, TT. In those 6 years on the PS2, GT franchise became the biggest driving game franchise in the world and released 3 games, 1 add-on and a demo. Thousands of models of cars and bikes and over 100 tracks. GT franchise sold in total over 30 million units. What happened in the last 6 years on the PS3? GT5P and GTPSP sold under 6 million units of 1 game and a demo. Also GT5 has cost considerably more to develop than GT3, GTC, GT4P, GT4, TT. Why? Same time span of 6 years and HD game development costs. And, wait for it, we'll have GT5 this year, hopefully, with, 200 cars! Fans are not creaming themselves as they once did for the next GT game, on the PS2, the highest user base in console history. There is more competition in the form of a few other successful driving game franchises. PS3 holds the lowest user base of the current console market and the world is in recession.

There are car models looking better than the Standard 800 in GRID, NFS SHIFT, FM3, DIRT, TDU2 (unreleased), and other driving games. The cars in all of the above games have interiors too. So unless Sony, PD and KY can spin into a Premium success by magically creating 800 cars and cockpits that are at least as good as the above games and GT5 sells at least 24 million units, well, GT franchise is taking quite a dive.

And did I mention still no Porsche? Standard or otherwise. But of course some will have us believe that RUF is much better and Porsche is overrated. Ignorance is bliss... (But of course, if one day Porsche make it into GT6 it will be the best, just like when Ferrari and Lamborghini, at last, made it into GT5.)

My 2 long posts on the previous pages are summed up like this: KY, PD and Sony You're doing it wrong!

There was a question earlier on about me buying GT5. Not on release, not until the first DLC is released, not until I find out if DLC is free or how much it costs, and how many Standard cars it switches to Premium. And even then, maybe. Hope that answers your question.

 

[Kingdizzi]

Sorry, I should have said: "I doubt those 800 standard cars will magically look a lot better when we turn the game on for the first time!" instead.

Seriously, there are four months left until release - 800+ GT4 models aren't going to change into anything else anymore.

So wait are they literally copy/paste jobs? If PD did not bother adding anything to those GT4 models then it is indeed unacceptable.