Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[steve30x]

Now we've descended into just some foolish childish arguments, again.

I honestly cant see why stating a fact that the standard cars we see are probably from an old beta build is childish? It makes total sense to me , because I cant see why PD would have the 800 cars at a lower quality than prologue or GT PSP quality.

So wait are they literally copy/paste jobs? If PD did not bother adding anything to those GT4 models then it is indeed unacceptable.

Which is what I am trying to get across. I doubt PD are just after just bringing over the GT4 cars without making them look better.

 

[RedSuinit]

My well thought out post was pulled apart into just a few points that could be interpreted differently to try to cast doubt and discredit. Now we've descended into just some foolish childish arguments, again. It's all good, what I wrote opened some more eyes and that was my intention.

You also opened up some of our eyes to your ignorance.

Just to reiterate, from a development, business model, financial success and increasing fan base, the last 6 years are a far cry from the 6 years that comprised GT3, GTC, GT4P, GT4, TT. In those 6 years on the PS2, GT franchise became the biggest driving game franchise in the world and released 3 games, 1 add-on and a demo. Thousands of models of cars and bikes and over 100 tracks. GT franchise sold in total over 30 million units. What happened in the last 6 years on the PS3? GT5P and GTPSP sold under 6 million units of 1 game and a demo. Also GT5 has cost considerably more to develop than GT3, GTC, GT4P, GT4, TT. Why? Same time span of 6 years and HD game development costs. And, wait for it, we'll have GT5 this year, hopefully, with, 200 cars! Fans are not creaming themselves as they once did for the next GT game, on the PS2 the highest user base in console history. There is more competition in the form of a few other successful driving game franchises. PS3 holds the lowest user base of the current console market and the world is in recession.

I do hope that you realize that every time that they made a next generation game that it took a LONG time to make. GT1 took 5 years of development time as well. Am I saying that PD has done everything right? No. Have they done a LOT of things right. You better believe it. People cried for damage, what did we get, a real time DEFORMATION damage model. No other game has EVER done that, EVER. PC or console. People cried for a day to night transition, what did we get? A day to night transition that makes every other games attempt at the same thing look like trash. People cried for a great online experience (from the details we have been given, it is going to be great). You people have gotten everything that we have asked for out of PD, and now you're going to cry about getting 800 more cars that they didn't HAVE to include? Oh, and this whole, "if they can't all be awesome, I don't want them at all" argument is stupid, they have premium models at all levels of class, so you won't even HAVE to touch the standard models. As for the user base of the PS3, most of them are planning on buying GT5.

There are car models looking better than the Standard 800 in GRID, NFS SHIFT, FM3, DIRT, TDU2 (unreleased), and other driving games. The cars in all of the above games have interiors too. So unless Sony, PD and KY can spin into a Premium success by magically creating 800 cars and cockpits that are at least as good as the above games and GT5 sells at least 24 million units, well, GT franchise is taking quite a dive.

So you're saying that unless GT5 sells 1.4 BILLION dollars worth, it is taking a dive? You're delusional.

And did I mention still no Porsche? Standard or Otherwise. But of course some will have us believe that RUF is much better and Porsche is overrated. Ignorance is bliss... (But of course, if one day Porsche make it into GT6 it will be the best, just like when Ferrari and Lamborghini made it into GT5.)

RUF is a Porsche body with a better engine and transmission than the standard Porsche's so how is that NOT better? I guess ignorance is bliss.

My 2 long posts on the previous pages are summed up like this: KY, PD and Sony You're doing it wrong!

In your opinion. Like I said earlier, they haven't been perfect, but I highly doubt that doing much better is even possible, BY ANYONE.

There was a question earlier on about me buying GT5. Not on release, not until the first DLC is released, not until I find out if it's free or how much it costs, and how many Standard cars it switches to Premium. And even them maybe. Hope that answers your question.

Your loss, but we'll see if you actually keep that resolve later on.

EDIT: (spoiler->) I just slapped you with the truth! Again!

Let me slap YOU with some truth now, since you chose to ignore it earlier.

EVERY time a new GT game (ANY game for that matter) comes out (or starts to get close to being out) there are always things that people complain about, people that have sworn up one side and down another, "That's it, this is too big of a deal, I am not buying the game," it has happened here. In the end, only a few of those people that claim that they "won't buy the game," actually don't, and tons of people that never visit these forums will still buy the game. Believe me, GT's sales will be fine.

 

[Cobra_NZ]

...I highly doubt that doing much better is even possible, BY ANYONE.

That above sums up your post. Nice try, quite animated and derogatory at times, but I'd expect nothing less. Still just hot air tough.

Your Kung Fu is weak...

 

[Devedander]

Those cars could be from a beta build six to twelve months old. Theres a big possibility that the standard cars will look a lot better.

You mean including the snapshots on the website?

They can tweak models with turbo smoothing (remove square edges) and so on. When you think about it, now when most of the staff is free, they can upgrade them.

No offense but I think everyone at PD will be scrambling up until the 11th hour on this one... I can't really imagine there will be a lot of free time anywhere between here and release.

I honestly cant see why stating a fact that the standard cars we see are probably from an old beta build is childish? It makes total sense to me , because I cant see why PD would have the 800 cars at a lower quality than prologue or GT PSP quality.

It seems to be a battle of the can't see's then...

You can't see why PD would have 800 lower quality cars than GT5P

I can't see why PD would wait so long to drop this obvious bomb on us and then choose to compound the pain by showing us uglier than reality shots...

 

[steve30x]

You can't see why PD would have 800 lower quality cars than GT5P

I can't see why PD would wait so long to drop this obvious bomb on us and then choose to compound the pain by showing us uglier than reality shots...

My question still stands as to where is the proof that the cars will be lower quality than GT5P cars? I havent seen any of that proof and I have watchec every video and I have seen every picture but none of those lower quality cars you all cry about have standard written on them.

You mean like the fact that they obviously havent told us what other features are in the game. That bomb has to drop yet.

 

[Devedander]

My question still stands as to where is the proof that the cars will be lower quality than GT5P cars? I havent seen any of that proof and I have watchec every video and I have seen every picture but none of those lower quality cars you all cry about have standard written on them.

You mean like over here at the official GT website where they standard cars section has a picture of them and then a video showing them?

http://us.gran-turismo.com/us/news/d5247.html

You mean like the fact that they obviously havent told us what other features are in the game. That bomb has to drop yet.

I dont get what you are saying here... the 800 standard cars was certainly a bomb dropping... there may be other ones to come but what does that have to do with it?

 

[Seismica]

My question still stands as to where is the proof that the cars will be lower quality than GT5P cars? I havent seen any of that proof and I have watchec every video and I have seen every picture but none of those lower quality cars you all cry about have standard written on them.

You mean like the fact that they obviously havent told us what other features are in the game. That bomb has to drop yet.

I feel you're just ignoring the fact.

The standard cars will not be up to Prologue's standards. Despite being released nearly 3 years ago, Prologue set the standard for Premium cars.

The standard car videos show much less detailed models.

However, I agree with Shinu. I feel they could improve the standard models a little without too much work (Obviously they can't go too far without compromising quality and accuracy). Whether they have done so or intend to do so, is doubtful. They're probably just going to focus on bringing them up to premium level. Improving the standard cars to a point well below premium level is time wasted in the long term development of the series. Premium models are near future-proof, the more cars they create to these standards, the better.

 

[chepu]

They can tweak models with turbo smoothing (remove square edges) and so on. When you think about it, now when most of the staff is free, they can upgrade them.

One man 8 working hours is enough to upgrade quite low poly (ps2 4k) model with basic tools. Especially when you have all the reference and resources you need.

In short, if they (3D modelers) don't have anything else to do until launch, they can do a lot.


Don't get me wrong, there wont be a miracle, but i think standard car video is quite old.

GT4 cars are ~4k poly and that's ~ 50-100x less then prologue/GT5. With few clicks PD could up the poly count and remove some of the squareness. It would be strange is they wouldn't use PS3 power to there advantage.

They Cant Apply TurboSmooth or any of those tools.

Why?

Because those are Textured Models, if they change the Polygon Count/Location a lots of textures would have to be redone, because their position will be different on the 3D Model.

Imagine Having to Redo lots of textures for 800 Cars.

It'll be easier to simply Cut out the pieces after applying any Smooth tool, so they wont have to redo the Textures.

👍

 

[Forgetful]

Just to reiterate, from a development, business model, financial success and increasing fan base, the last 6 years are a far cry from the 6 years that comprised GT3, GTC, GT4P, GT4, TT. In those 6 years on the PS2, GT franchise became the biggest driving game franchise in the world and released 3 games, 1 add-on and a demo. Thousands of models of cars and bikes and over 100 tracks. GT franchise sold in total over 30 million units. What happened in the last 6 years on the PS3? GT5P and GTPSP sold under 6 million units of 1 game and a demo. Also GT5 has cost considerably more to develop than GT3, GTC, GT4P, GT4, TT. Why? Same time span of 6 years and HD game development costs. And, wait for it, we'll have GT5 this year, hopefully, with, 200 cars! Fans are not creaming themselves as they once did for the next GT game, on the PS2, the highest user base in console history. There is more competition in the form of a few other successful driving game franchises. PS3 holds the lowest user base of the current console market and the world is in recession.

A physics engine that can only be run on the PS3's cell processor! An unmatched level of detail, cars and tracks, and even if it's only 200 cars. That's more than enough for most games, including the best selling GT ever, GT3. We also have an intensive online interface heading down the pipe soon. That's the kind of thing that makes or breaks the day to day gameplay.

While there is more competition out there (or is there, more on that in a sec), not much of that competition takes itself as seriously as GT, meaning they cater to the arcade racer, somewhat, especially in the difficulty of the physics. But even in the past, GT had to contend with NFS, in its heyday, as well as Toca, Enthusia, forza and others in the sim department. Now, every racer seems to fill a niche. Now it's kinda broken in to classes. GT vs. Forza, NFS vs. Grid and then the true arcade racers.

There are car models looking better than the Standard 800 in GRID, NFS SHIFT, FM3, DIRT, TDU2 (unreleased), and other driving games. The cars in all of the above games have interiors too. So unless Sony, PD and KY can spin into a Premium success by magically creating 800 cars and cockpits that are at least as good as the above games and GT5 sells at least 24 million units, well, GT franchise is taking quite a dive.

What about Premium cars? GT will have more premium cars than most of those games do, in total. Only one of those will have more cars with cockpit view.

Really, what do you care what the sales numbers are? Why not just decide which game you prefer, and play it for your own enjoyment. But, FWIW, Prologue and GTPSP were sales success, considering the PS's new market share. The thing is, a well advertised GT launch, and bundling with a console could be a real strong mover of both.

And did I mention still no Porsche? Standard or otherwise. But of course some will have us believe that RUF is much better and Porsche is overrated. Ignorance is bliss... (But of course, if one day Porsche make it into GT6 it will be the best, just like when Ferrari and Lamborghini, at last, made it into GT5.)

No need to lump everyone in on this one. There are many GT fans that are not happy about missing out on Porsche, and just because some people point out that we do have a few variations of them, it does not mean that everyone feels the same way about missing out on 917s and other historic racers. Compared to GT's past, PD should be applauded for their increased effort to nail down the most popular cars on the automotive landscape. Scoring Ferrari, lambo and McLaren is nothing to laugh at. Furthermore, I begrudge Porsche for this one, not PD. They're the ones who control their image, and the licensing of their products.

My 2 long posts on the previous pages are summed up like this: KY, PD and Sony You're doing it wrong!

There was a question earlier on about me buying GT5. Not on release, not until the first DLC is released, not until I find out if DLC is free or how much it costs, and how many Standard cars it switches to Premium. And even then, maybe. Hope that answers your question.

EDIT: (spoiler->) I just slapped you with the truth! Again!

That just seems so petty. 200 of the highest detailed cars ever put in a video game just isn't enough? 20 highly accurate tracks (maybe up to 40, if Jeff Rubenstein can be believed), no? A free online interface? 16 cars on track? GT's legendary career mode, improved upon is of no interest? Despite a few drawbacks, you're still going to ignore all the great things they have accomplished? That's a shame.

 

[RedSuinit]

That above sums up your post. Nice try, quite animated and derogatory at times, but I'd expect nothing less. Still just hot air tough.

Your Kung Fu is weak...

Well, for the guy who talked about getting into a childish argument because only segments of his post was taken, looks like your a pot calling the kettle black.

Also, it was my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Shinu]

They Cant Apply TurboSmooth or any of those tools.

Why?

Because those are Textured Models, if they change the Polygon Count/Location a lots of textures would have to be redone, because their position will be different on the 3D Model.

Imagine Having to Redo lots of textures for 800 Cars.

It'll be easier to simply Cut out the pieces after applying any Smooth tool, so they wont have to redo the Textures.

👍

There are ways to do so without messing it up (you have to look after the edges). Reducing detail is a lot harder then adding it

+ They need to UP the poly count if they want to add damage/dents.

 

[Cobra_NZ]

...+ They need to UP the poly count if they want to add damage/dents.

They don't, read the official information on the GT5 website. Standard cars will only have limited damage. Probably minor dents and scratches...

 

[JDMKING13]

They don't, read the official information on the GT5 website. Standard cars will only have limited damage. Probably minor dents and scratches...

Dents scratches and mechanical damage thats good enough for me. 👍

 

[RedSuinit]

Cobra, you make me laugh, still not going to reply to my post, even after you committed the same crime that you attacked someone else for?

Your form is poor.

 

[gtracedriver]

They can tweak models with turbo smoothing (remove square edges) and so on. When you think about it, now when most of the staff is free, they can upgrade them.

One man 8 working hours is enough to upgrade quite low poly (ps2 4k) model with basic tools. Especially when you have all the reference and resources you need.

In short, if they (3D modelers) don't have anything else to do until launch, they can do a lot.


Don't get me wrong, there wont be a miracle, but i think standard car video is quite old.

GT4 cars are ~4k poly and that's ~ 50-100x less then prologue/GT5. With few clicks PD could up the poly count and remove some of the squareness. It would be strange is they wouldn't use PS3 power to there advantage.

Yeah they can do lots of things I am sure. The gfx programmers and 3D artist, modelers will decide and I am sure it will be good enough People are just blowing this way out of proportion comparing it will a 5yr old PS2 game

 

[DarthRoni]

200 + premium cars
800 + Standard cars
721 cars in GT4
721 - cars that are made premium in GT5 = 100 ? just a guess probably or maybe a little lower
800 - 621 = 179
179 cars that aren't is GT4 that will be standard in GT5 ?
This means that the standard cars in GT5 aren't imports from GT4 ,but instead modeled from scratch. It would be weird for PD to put two different quality of cars in the same category...
If there are holes in my theory please point them out because I am a Gran Turismo noob and a noob at all racing games to be honest !

 

[DarthRoni]

Never mind my previous statement... I just saw the video of the standard cars... Well I had seen it before but I paused at key areas this time and well one of the cars says GT4 o.o

 

[eSZee]

Cobra, you make me laugh, still not going to reply to my post, even after you committed the same crime that you attacked someone else for?

Your form is poor.

Maybe he's just tired of the argument and moving on.
I do that, others do it. Not everyone feels the need to have the last word.
Let's just move on and not get another thread locked.

 

[kingcars]

Oh. Wow. Seriously? People are still clinging to the hope that the standard cars video and all the proof surrounding it is all a lie? This is a hopeless quest.

(lol @ typo)

There are gonna be a lot of disappointed people come release day.

People are just blowing this way out of proportion comparing it will a 5yr old PS2 game

Hmmm...it's odd how those comparisons are actually true though, isn't it? Oh wait, the standard cars video is a fake. I forgot, my bad. Standard cars are actually 200,000 poly models from Prologue.

 

[RedSuinit]

Maybe he's just tired of the argument and moving on.
I do that, others do it. Not everyone feels the need to have the last word.
Let's just move on and not get another thread locked.

You mean you and others do the exact same thing that you attack other people for doing?

Moving on is one thing, attacking another user for a certain behavior and then doing it to someone else when it fits your agenda is poor form, and unacceptable.

Oh. Wow. Seriously? People are still clinging to the hope that the standard cars video and all the proof surrounding it is all a lie? This is a hopeless quest.


(lol @ typo)

There are gonna be a lot of disappointed people come release day.

Hmmm...it's odd how those comparisons are actually true though, isn't it? Oh wait, the standard cars video is a fake. I forgot, my bad. Standard cars are actually 200,000 poly models from Prologue.

Oh, wow, you mean people are still complaining about getting 800 extra car models just because they have less polygons? Oh, wait, that's right, because the 200 premium models aren't far more detailed than anything seen in a racing game to date, and most games in this genre COME with AT LEAST 200 vehicles in the first place! Right?

 

[Devedander]

Hmmm...it's odd how those comparisons are actually true though, isn't it? Oh wait, the standard cars video is a fake. I forgot, my bad. Standard cars are actually 200,000 poly models from Prologue.

BADASS!!! I have never been so happy to be wrong!

 

[Devedander]

Oh, wow, you mean people are still complaining about getting 800 extra car models just because they have less polygons? Oh, wait, that's right, because the 200 premium models aren't far more detailed than anything seen in a racing game to date, and most games in this genre COME with AT LEAST 200 vehicles in the first place! Right?

This is a big point of conention (are the standard cars bonuses or black eyes?) and I would like to put this forth as how I see it:

There is a thing called managing expectations. It takes all forms and faces - usually it's the art of balancing hope and desire with honestly and truth.

The basic fundamental is you don't want to set expectations too high becuase you are basically asking for dissapointment later.

Managing expectations can be 100% of the difference between percieved success and failure. It's a huge part of marketing and is closely tied to percieved honesty and thus integrity and a positive percetion.

Basically it requires the the end user/consumer not feel lied to or mislead in the end and feel he got what was reasonably implied the whole time.

Reasonably implied is a key term there... when one focuses on exact promises and neededing absolute evidence, you exceed real life reasonability. We aren't in kindergarten anymore, we don't get to say "BUT YOU DIDNT PROMISE!" or "IF YOU LOVE GT WHY DONT YOU MARRY IT!?". We are all relatively grown up now and we are not lawyers in our daily life so we opperate under normal, rational implications of communication.

In this case, expectations were not well managed and I feel that has contributed to what is legitimately an arguable failure on PDs part.

Had PD gone down a slightly different route, I think expectations could have been much better managed and this could have truly been seen as a bonus, however it could have cost the marketing team some much needed ammo...

Had PD started off or at least early on come along and said "For whatever reason (timing - desire -feasability) we will be releasing GT5 with 200+ ultra high detail incredible cars" that would have been the expectation.

Then later on had PD then said "GT5 is coming along great, we will relase soon, and guess what... we will be including a bonus... all the cars from GT4 will be ported in and will look even better than GT4 with GT5s new lighting engine and will work with GT5's awesome new physics engine AND as an ADDED bonus - they get mechanical damaged and even limited visible damage!" the response would have been legitimately much different!

We would have been absolutely WOWED... we just got 400% more cars in GT5 as a bonus!

But that's not how it went... and again while one can be pedantic and argue details and definitions as much as they want, we all know that up until recently by far the majority - the average reasonable person was knowingly lead to believe the implication that GT5 had 1000 top notch, better than GT5P quality cars coming it's way...

The flaw here is that allowing this to happen has turned what COULD have been an acutal bonus, into a failure to live up to expectations.

So while many people are arguing the merits of the cars and models on their own, I don't think that's really looking in the right place. It's like trying to decide if an action was right or wrong by looking at the action... an action is an action, what makes it right or wrong is the circumstance.

If I speed 85mph in a residential zone, the action in and of itself is neither right nor wrong... the circumstances makes it so. If I am doing it because I am drunk and don't know better, it's wrong. If I am doing it because my pregnant wife suddnely started bleeding a month before her due date and I was rushing her to the hosptial fearing for her and my babies life, then it's not wrong anymore, it's a necessity.

Or lets say I shoot a guy in the face. Shooting somone in the face is neither right nor wrong of itself, if I do it as a joke, it's horribly wrong; if I do it becuase he is actively trying to stab me to death, it's completely ok and self defense.

The same about the standard cars... the cars and models themselves aren't what we should be looking at, they are what they are... what makes them a bonus or a failure is the circumstances that lead up to them, and I think by any rational, reasonable examination, expecations were set, they appear to be far from met, and we must chalk the standard cars up as not a bonus, but a missed opportunity.

EDIT: And for the record - I am not comparing a video game to potential miscarriage or homocide. If that's what you got out of it, you do not understand analogies and need to re read the post...

 

[Cobra_NZ]

That's an intelligent, very well thought out post. 👍

 

[RedSuinit]

This is a big point of conention (are the standard cars bonuses or black eyes?) and I would like to put this forth as how I see it:

There is a thing called managing expectations. It takes all forms and faces - usually it's the art of balancing hope and desire with honestly and truth.

The basic fundamental is you don't want to set expectations too high becuase you are basically asking for dissapointment later.

Managing expectations can be 100% of the difference between percieved success and failure. It's a huge part of marketing and is closely tied to percieved honesty and thus integrity and a positive percetion.

Basically it requires the the end user/consumer not feel lied to or mislead in the end and feel he got what was reasonably implied the whole time.

Reasonably implied is a key term there... when one focuses on exact promises and neededing absolute evidence, you exceed real life reasonability. We aren't in kindergarten anymore, we don't get to say "BUT YOU DIDNT PROMISE!" or "IF YOU LOVE GT WHY DONT YOU MARRY IT!?". We are all relatively grown up now and we are not lawyers in our daily life so we opperate under normal, rational implications of communication.

In this case, expectations were not well managed and I feel that has contributed to what is legitimately an arguable failure on PDs part.

Had PD gone down a slightly different route, I think expectations could have been much better managed and this could have truly been seen as a bonus, however it could have cost the marketing team some much needed ammo...

Had PD started off or at least early on come along and said "For whatever reason (timing - desire -feasability) we will be releasing GT5 with 200+ ultra high detail incredible cars" that would have been the expectation.

Then later on had PD then said "GT5 is coming along great, we will relase soon, and guess what... we will be including a bonus... all the cars from GT4 will be ported in and will look even better than GT4 with GT5s new lighting engine and will work with GT5's awesome new physics engine AND as an ADDED bonus - they get mechanical damaged and even limited visible damage!" the response would have been legitimately much different!

We would have been absolutely WOWED... we just got 400% more cars in GT5 as a bonus!

But that's not how it went... and again while one can be pedantic and argue details and definitions as much as they want, we all know that up until recently by far the majority - the average reasonable person was knowingly lead to believe the implication that GT5 had 1000 top notch, better than GT5P quality cars coming it's way...

The flaw here is that allowing this to happen has turned what COULD have been an acutal bonus, into a failure to live up to expectations.

So while many people are arguing the merits of the cars and models on their own, I don't think that's really looking in the right place. It's like trying to decide if an action was right or wrong by looking at the action... an action is an action, what makes it right or wrong is the circumstance.

If I speed 85mph in a residential zone, the action in and of itself is neither right nor wrong... the circumstances makes it so. If I am doing it because I am drunk and don't know better, it's wrong. If I am doing it because my pregnant wife suddnely started bleeding a month before her due date and I was rushing her to the hosptial fearing for her and my babies life, then it's not wrong anymore, it's a necessity.

Or lets say I shoot a guy in the face. Shooting somone in the face is neither right nor wrong of itself, if I do it as a joke, it's horribly wrong; if I do it becuase he is actively trying to stab me to death, it's completely ok and self defense.

The same about the standard cars... the cars and models themselves aren't what we should be looking at, they are what they are... what makes them a bonus or a failure is the circumstances that lead up to them, and I think by any rational, reasonable examination, expecations were set, they appear to be far from met, and we must chalk the standard cars up as not a bonus, but a missed opportunity.

EDIT: And for the record - I am not comparing a video game to potential miscarriage or homocide. If that's what you got out of it, you do not understand analogies and need to re read the post...

Good post. Not much I can say to that. I guess as a realist I knew that there was no way all 1000 cars were going to look that good, so I am not really THAT surprised, and MY expectations haven't been let down. However, I do understand your point, and it is a legitimate one.

 

[Shinu]

They don't, read the official information on the GT5 website. Standard cars will only have limited damage. Probably minor dents and scratches...

Yes, and for dents you need higher poly count. Tessellate at very least. Dents/deformation is usually done by moving polys, and if you don't have enough of them in a specific area, it will look weird.

Oh. Wow. Seriously? People are still clinging to the hope that the standard cars video and all the proof surrounding it is all a lie? This is a hopeless quest.

I'm not saying they will magically improve.. I'm saying that is 100% possible to improve them, and given the fact that the game is "finished and can be released any time" most of the 3D staff should be free. Minor improvements doesn't require that much time as you think.

Standard cars in that video look OK to me (except Le mans), i just want to race Online/offline even if its just bricks with wheels.

 

[Cobra_NZ]

Yes, and for dents you need higher poly count. Tessellate at very least. Dents/deformation is usually done by moving polygons, and if you don't have enough of them in a specific area, it will look weird.

We'll see, I'm a bit sceptical. I agree with the theory you have behind it, it's sound. But the Standard cars have unfinished filling written all over them, so I just can't visualize this improvement you speak of. It certainly isn't visible in the screenshots and videos we've see so far. If indeed there will be one, good (still think you're grasping at straws), but to me it still will be a car with inferior 3D model fidelity, less polygons, no interior, no cockpit (or a black cockpit at best), limited damage model. I don't know about you but I for one will be hard pushed to play with the Standard cars after experiencing the Premium.

Ask yourself when you were playing GT3 with under 200 cars, did you find your PS copy of GT2 to play with all the cars and tracks that you were missing in GT3? After all the PS2 could make the PS games better. So did you? Not likely. Yes the physics are Premium, yes the lighting and particle effects are Premium, but still a huge let-down.

This can be spun in so many ways but the point of this thread is our thoughts on this whole situation. I've posted my thought and I respect yours and others. I'm not interested in all the other petty goings on on this thread.

 

[Snaeper]

I'll reserve judgement until Gamescom... or November. Since I haven't played the franchise since GT2, everything will be new and awesome to me anyways.

EDIT: In full. I own GT5P as well, but the content is just too narrow.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

This is a big point of conention (are the standard cars bonuses or black eyes?) and I would like to put this forth as how I see it:

There is a thing called managing expectations. It takes all forms and faces - usually it's the art of balancing hope and desire with honestly and truth.

The basic fundamental is you don't want to set expectations too high becuase you are basically asking for dissapointment later.

Managing expectations can be 100% of the difference between percieved success and failure. It's a huge part of marketing and is closely tied to percieved honesty and thus integrity and a positive percetion.

Basically it requires the the end user/consumer not feel lied to or mislead in the end and feel he got what was reasonably implied the whole time.

Reasonably implied is a key term there... when one focuses on exact promises and neededing absolute evidence, you exceed real life reasonability. We aren't in kindergarten anymore, we don't get to say "BUT YOU DIDNT PROMISE!" or "IF YOU LOVE GT WHY DONT YOU MARRY IT!?". We are all relatively grown up now and we are not lawyers in our daily life so we opperate under normal, rational implications of communication.

In this case, expectations were not well managed and I feel that has contributed to what is legitimately an arguable failure on PDs part.

Had PD gone down a slightly different route, I think expectations could have been much better managed and this could have truly been seen as a bonus, however it could have cost the marketing team some much needed ammo...

Had PD started off or at least early on come along and said "For whatever reason (timing - desire -feasability) we will be releasing GT5 with 200+ ultra high detail incredible cars" that would have been the expectation.

Then later on had PD then said "GT5 is coming along great, we will relase soon, and guess what... we will be including a bonus... all the cars from GT4 will be ported in and will look even better than GT4 with GT5s new lighting engine and will work with GT5's awesome new physics engine AND as an ADDED bonus - they get mechanical damaged and even limited visible damage!" the response would have been legitimately much different!

We would have been absolutely WOWED... we just got 400% more cars in GT5 as a bonus!

But that's not how it went... and again while one can be pedantic and argue details and definitions as much as they want, we all know that up until recently by far the majority - the average reasonable person was knowingly lead to believe the implication that GT5 had 1000 top notch, better than GT5P quality cars coming it's way...

The flaw here is that allowing this to happen has turned what COULD have been an acutal bonus, into a failure to live up to expectations.

So while many people are arguing the merits of the cars and models on their own, I don't think that's really looking in the right place. It's like trying to decide if an action was right or wrong by looking at the action... an action is an action, what makes it right or wrong is the circumstance.

If I speed 85mph in a residential zone, the action in and of itself is neither right nor wrong... the circumstances makes it so. If I am doing it because I am drunk and don't know better, it's wrong. If I am doing it because my pregnant wife suddnely started bleeding a month before her due date and I was rushing her to the hosptial fearing for her and my babies life, then it's not wrong anymore, it's a necessity.

Or lets say I shoot a guy in the face. Shooting somone in the face is neither right nor wrong of itself, if I do it as a joke, it's horribly wrong; if I do it becuase he is actively trying to stab me to death, it's completely ok and self defense.

The same about the standard cars... the cars and models themselves aren't what we should be looking at, they are what they are... what makes them a bonus or a failure is the circumstances that lead up to them, and I think by any rational, reasonable examination, expecations were set, they appear to be far from met, and we must chalk the standard cars up as not a bonus, but a missed opportunity.

EDIT: And for the record - I am not comparing a video game to potential miscarriage or homocide. If that's what you got out of it, you do not understand analogies and need to re read the post...

Your comments zero in on the contentious bullseye.

Expectations therefore, were allowed to leap into the stratosphere, with no restraint from Sony/PD, which was the natural course, given the dev time extenting well beyond the norm.

This was a growing concern of mine, going back some time ago now.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=125285#post3742865

 

[Shinu]

The difference between most of you and me that GT5 will be my first (cant find GT4 in my country) FULL GT (exept GTpsp) and I'm used to PC sims .

In conclusion My expectations are lower then yours, and I will be seeing everything with fresh eyes (as if GT5 was a new franchise). I think you people should try to do that too, you would be happier.

 

[KilzoneStrife]

This is a big point of conention (are the standard cars bonuses or black eyes?) and I would like to put this forth as how I see it:

There is a thing called managing expectations. It takes all forms and faces - usually it's the art of balancing hope and desire with honestly and truth.

The basic fundamental is you don't want to set expectations too high becuase you are basically asking for dissapointment later.

Managing expectations can be 100% of the difference between percieved success and failure. It's a huge part of marketing and is closely tied to percieved honesty and thus integrity and a positive percetion.

Basically it requires the the end user/consumer not feel lied to or mislead in the end and feel he got what was reasonably implied the whole time.

Reasonably implied is a key term there... when one focuses on exact promises and neededing absolute evidence, you exceed real life reasonability. We aren't in kindergarten anymore, we don't get to say "BUT YOU DIDNT PROMISE!" or "IF YOU LOVE GT WHY DONT YOU MARRY IT!?". We are all relatively grown up now and we are not lawyers in our daily life so we opperate under normal, rational implications of communication.

In this case, expectations were not well managed and I feel that has contributed to what is legitimately an arguable failure on PDs part.

Had PD gone down a slightly different route, I think expectations could have been much better managed and this could have truly been seen as a bonus, however it could have cost the marketing team some much needed ammo...

Had PD started off or at least early on come along and said "For whatever reason (timing - desire -feasability) we will be releasing GT5 with 200+ ultra high detail incredible cars" that would have been the expectation.

Then later on had PD then said "GT5 is coming along great, we will relase soon, and guess what... we will be including a bonus... all the cars from GT4 will be ported in and will look even better than GT4 with GT5s new lighting engine and will work with GT5's awesome new physics engine AND as an ADDED bonus - they get mechanical damaged and even limited visible damage!" the response would have been legitimately much different!

We would have been absolutely WOWED... we just got 400% more cars in GT5 as a bonus!

But that's not how it went... and again while one can be pedantic and argue details and definitions as much as they want, we all know that up until recently by far the majority - the average reasonable person was knowingly lead to believe the implication that GT5 had 1000 top notch, better than GT5P quality cars coming it's way...

The flaw here is that allowing this to happen has turned what COULD have been an acutal bonus, into a failure to live up to expectations.

So while many people are arguing the merits of the cars and models on their own, I don't think that's really looking in the right place. It's like trying to decide if an action was right or wrong by looking at the action... an action is an action, what makes it right or wrong is the circumstance.

If I speed 85mph in a residential zone, the action in and of itself is neither right nor wrong... the circumstances makes it so. If I am doing it because I am drunk and don't know better, it's wrong. If I am doing it because my pregnant wife suddnely started bleeding a month before her due date and I was rushing her to the hosptial fearing for her and my babies life, then it's not wrong anymore, it's a necessity.

Or lets say I shoot a guy in the face. Shooting somone in the face is neither right nor wrong of itself, if I do it as a joke, it's horribly wrong; if I do it becuase he is actively trying to stab me to death, it's completely ok and self defense.

The same about the standard cars... the cars and models themselves aren't what we should be looking at, they are what they are... what makes them a bonus or a failure is the circumstances that lead up to them, and I think by any rational, reasonable examination, expecations were set, they appear to be far from met, and we must chalk the standard cars up as not a bonus, but a missed opportunity.

EDIT: And for the record - I am not comparing a video game to potential miscarriage or homocide. If that's what you got out of it, you do not understand analogies and need to re read the post...

Everything you wrote is true.... PD WHY?? *facepalm*