Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[RedSuinit]

To an extent, seeing vertex bumps IS seeing the wireframe...

I think most people who don't see the correlation between standards and the GT4 models just don't really know what they are looking for/at. Not an insult so much as a statement.

Just like I got wrong "bored headers" when I should have said "ported headers"... obviously I am not the one you want going upgrade shopping with you



I addresed this before, but in short, because GT5 was advertised at 1000 cars the whole time (and that's ignoring the fact we were only shown premiums up until recently) you can't count the 800 cars as extras because they are part of the 1000 number. If there were 1000 premiums and 800 standards THEN the standards would be extras, but as it is, they are just part of the meat of the game and as such, they fail to meet the implied and expressed level of the games assets.



You say they are pretty good looking, I say they are bad looking... we have been back and forth about this and both are subjective claims and ironically thus are not mutually exclusive.

The point is, the discussion is consistently pushed into tangents rather than addressing the specific point at hand.

You can say what you want about how the cars look, but that is a definite defensive and diversionary tactic.

I figured at LEAST you would get my point. Your analogy/metaphor was NOT a good representation of the people you were taking aim at in said analogy/metaphor. Mine however, was. You can't use YOUR opinion in order to represent someone ELSE.

 

[kingcars]

Great, i hope now some people can understand and accept the facts.

Good luck...

I figured at LEAST you would get my point. Your analogy/metaphor was NOT a good representation of the people you were taking aim at in said analogy/metaphor. Mine however, was. You can't use YOUR opinion in order to represent someone ELSE.

So you proved he was wrong by doing what you accused him of doing? Sweet.

 

[Organ-Donor]

Great, i hope now some people can understand and accept the facts.

The fact is, I am dissapointed, but by no means do I think the cars look unacceptable. I'm a car enthusiast and want as many cars in the game as possible. I will reserve my opinion on how good/bad they look when I'm playing the final copy myself in high def in my own room. But I'm sure with the sheer magnitude of all the features of the game, I won't be too caught up in this one aspect of it. Thats just me though.

 

[The_Paladin]

Good luck...

So you proved he was wrong by doing what you accused him of doing? Sweet.

LOL!!! thats a great picture.

 

[RedSuinit]

So you proved he was wrong by doing what you accused him of doing? Sweet.

Ok, let's try this one more time.

Dev in the "Discussion:" section of his analogy/metaphor took aim at a group of people like me, who post and think as I do, using HIS opinion about standard cars. That is an oxymoron, because he is fitting HIS opinion into a representation of said group that doesn't agree with said opinion. My analogy/metaphor was an ACCURATE representation of the group that he was targeting in his post because it is the opinion of myself and others in said grouping that the standard cars look GOOD but not the BEST. No oxymoron, because the opinion fits the group. Therefore I did NOT do what he did. Care to try again?

 

[The_Paladin]

The fact is, I am dissapointed, but by no means do I think the cars look unacceptable. I'm a car enthusiast and want as many cars in the game as possible. I will reserve my opinion on how good/bad they look when I'm playing the final copy myself in high def in my own room. But I'm sure with the sheer magnitude of all the features of the game, I won't be too caught up in this one aspect of it. Thats just me though.

I dont think is unacceptable by itself, i like having more cars, what i think is unacceptable is the fact that Kaz didnt hired more people or outsourced the modelling of those cars. After all this is a HUGE series, the most important system seller that Sony have and they already have cover most of the cost of GT5 with the sales of GT5p, theres no reason to have such small studio and having us waiting for 3 extra years or having 800 ps2 ported cars.

 

[JDMKING13]

The fact is, I am dissapointed, but by no means do I think the cars look unacceptable. I'm a car enthusiast and want as many cars in the game as possible. I will reserve my opinion on how good/bad they look when I'm playing the final copy myself in high def in my own room. But I'm sure with the sheer magnitude of all the features of the game, I won't be too caught up in this one aspect of it. Thats just me though.

No doubt man I would of love 1000 premiums, but like you said the standards look just fine for me at least I will to enjoy them cant wait. 👍

 

[Devedander]

I figured at LEAST you would get my point. Your analogy/metaphor was NOT a good representation of the people you were taking aim at in said analogy/metaphor. Mine however, was. You can't use YOUR opinion in order to represent someone ELSE.

In either analogy someones opinion is used to represent one side. The point of the analogy wasn't which side is right or correct (note both are analogies are correct depending, one is correct for "your group" and the other is correct for "my group") but rather than a question or point is brought up and the response is not a direct examination of the point in question but rather a roundabout rationalization using other factors that do not directly tie to the original point.

Basically: The model quality has nothing to do with physics models, game features and modes etc yet it the conversation keeps getting derailed in those directions.

 

[GT5-KY-PD-SONY]

my thought:
every car will have a cockpit view
premium cars = cars exactly replicated engine, body panels, interior etc etc
standard cars = cars exterior modeled without the engine and underside, backseat etc, but will have a cockpit view. just not as accurate and detailed as premiums.

 

[Spagetti69]

My thought.

Standard cars do not have cockpit view.

 

[Tenacious D]

I dont think is unacceptable by itself, i like having more cars, what i think is unacceptable is the fact that Kaz didnt hired more people or outsourced the modelling of those cars. After all this is a HUGE series, the most important system seller that Sony have and they already have cover most of the cost of GT5 with the sales of GT5p, theres no reason to have such small studio and having us waiting for 3 extra years or having 800 ps2 ported cars.

I think outsourcing on the Forza series seriously hurt the games, especially where Turn 10 had to go for it... Viet Nam??

I agree that Polyphony needs more people on the modeling team, but they're first Party to SONY, and they write the checks. I've been meaning to make a "Memo to SONY" post but haven't got around to it yet. Been having too much fun with GT4.

Exactly, how pretty you think they look is a personal call... but models that were used in a game on a last generation console are be definition not current gen.

I'm beginning to think this argument isn't valid any more.

 

[GTP_V8SuperCars]

GT4 still has some sexy curves, but GT5 out classes that in detail 10 fold.

 

[kingcars]

I'm beginning to think this argument isn't valid any more.

Nope, it's still quite valid. I can spot quite a few glaring differences, like the modeled panel gaps, and the headlights are actually 3D in the Forza picture in the 1st and 3rd comparisons; and of course you chose the least flattering, outdated shots of Forza 2 (not even 3? seriously?) with photomode shots of GT4. And even then I can pick them apart.

 

[Dapper]

Lets forget last gen, lets talk about state of the art. At least GT has some, 200, state of the art models, the competition has none.

 

[Devedander]

From another thread:

For what its worth, in the latest OPM feature for GT5, in a box out about the face tracking is the following quote:

...


As Yamauchi discusses his game, there's a sense that he'd work on it for another five years if he could.
He Proudly announces over 1000 cars for the game but its with a degree of resignation that he confirms only 200 of those are new models for GT5."there are actually going to be two types of cars included in the game," he says. "we have over 800 cars that are from GT4 and GT PSP upscaled for the graphics engine of the PS3 and the 200 Premium cars.
"we set a high objective for the number of cars" Yamauchi continues. "we realised we couldnt work that way as it takes too long - we could have ended up waiting until PS4."

Hopefully that solidifies once and for all that indeed these are just GT4 models and does away with the whole "but they threw away all the old stuff for GT5" argument (which I explained before anyway).

It also says to me very much that it was poor planning to shoot so high, the original intent was to hit 1000 cars and they realized that in order to do so, at some point in the game, that they had to pull back and use lesser cars for a large portion of the game. Which is exactly what I was talking about before with why the 800 cars are a failure and not a bonus.

I'm beginning to think this argument isn't valid any more.

On all those pictures there seems to be a glaring difference in level of detail in the grill/headlights area just as a start.

Lets forget last gen, lets talk about state of the art. At least GT has some, 200, state of the art models, the competition has none during the actual racing portion of the game.

FTFY

And why are we talking about the competition again? Yet another diversion and tangential drive to avoid looking at the standards/premiums for what they are in the GT world but rather look at a slightly different issue.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Moving the topic in a slightly different direction has been the Standard (heh) defense for some time, though, sadly, for the devout GT-obsessives. Hell, that Lancia comparison proves how out-dated GT4 graphics are. The TT is consistently considered one of the best-modelled (and textured) cars in GT4, but then there's the Chevelle and it's horrible blurry panel gaps, awful polygonal headlamp surrounds, a flat grille, and ooooh, painted on hood vents. Yeah, definitely stands up to comparisons to current-gen.

Devedander, I've always felt the same way. Announcing 1000 cars so early for the first full installment on a new system was a poor choice. Once they realized how long cars took to create, they knew right away it was never going to work out. Are Premiums impressive? Of course, absolutely. But it's been over 5 years now and to release a game after such a long time with a huge percentage of the roster occupied by last-gen models, it really puts a huge "but" in their claims for the overall game being some kind of revolution.

I still think they could've saved a lot of the backlash by only ever stating the Premium car count. Throw the Standards in there, but don't say a word about them until release. Things would've been very, very different then, and I for one would've been far more likely to consider them a bonus if delivered that way. As is, it just highlights some very poor, basic planning.

 

[analog]

Well to be honest, they didn't exactly announce a 1000 cars early on, until recently it still was about 950 and with the number now slightly exceeding a 1000 and 800 cars being Standard shows they did add another 50 or so Premium models.

It also shows perhaps that they seem to have focussed more on including more Premium models instead of turning Standard models into Premium as the 800 seems to be a fixed number ( roughly the amount of cars in GT4 ).

 

[Akira AC]

Moving the topic in a slightly different direction has been the Standard (heh) defense for some time, though, sadly, for the devout GT-obsessives. Hell, that Lancia comparison proves how out-dated GT4 graphics are. The TT is consistently considered one of the best-modelled (and textured) cars in GT4, but then there's the Chevelle and it's horrible blurry panel gaps, awful polygonal headlamp surrounds, a flat grille, and ooooh, painted on hood vents. Yeah, definitely stands up to comparisons to current-gen.

I disagree on that because the level of detail on GT4 cars were on the limits of PS2,if we took a brief look at the pictures we found that the level of polygons of one of the GT4 cars will became so high that the game will became too unstable to maintain a good framerate,so some of those details has been draw to minimize the PS2 memory usage,now though we are looking to new levels of textures and antialiasing, which were a feature on the dev tools of GT5(like the stratos on the toscana in the trailer)and they are a good enough level of detail for current gen games(not going on defence of standards,is just a fact.)

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

From another thread:




Which is exactly what I was talking about before with why the 800 cars are a failure and not a bonus.

Again that is just your opinion. Some of us are content with the standard cars for various reasons. At least with a standard car we can still enjoy the physics engine whilst driving one and still use one of these to drive around the fantastic tracks and race online.

So 800 cars isn't a failure because you will only notice the difference between a premium or a standard car when either watching a replay or using cockpit view. As neither of these apply to me im grateful that we have 800 standard cars.

I feel this argument is going to continue to go around in circles. So whilst I do understand why some are disappointed. I ask you to understand that for some of us the standard/premium cars isn't really an issue. In a perfect world we would have 1000 premium cars but im also a realist who knows this isn't possible. I don't want to have to wait another 4yrs for GT5!!

 

[analog]

So 800 cars isn't a failure because you will only notice the difference between a premium or a standard car when either watching a replay or using cockpit view. As neither of these apply to me im grateful that we have 800 standard cars.

I feel this argument is going to continue to go around in circles. So whilst I do understand why some are disappointed. I ask you to understand that for some of us the standard/premium cars isn't really an issue. In a perfect world we would have 1000 premium cars but im also a realist who knows this isn't possible. I don't want to have to wait another 4yrs for GT5!!

If it isn't an issue to you, as you don't even use cockpit view, and you are perfectly happy as it is than why bother asking those who are disappointed to understand your viewpoint in a thread dedicated to this issue?

Great for you that you're fine with it as it is and there are plenty of threads covering other issues or topics to discuss, only 2 cover this issue and if you don't even care for it, why expressing concern for the discussion taking place here as it obviously doesn't concern you?

What is this? Please spare a thought for those unaffected?

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

If it isn't an issue to you, as you don't even use cockpit view, and you are perfectly happy as it is than why bother asking those who are disappointed to understand your viewpoint in a thread dedicated to this issue?

Great for you that you're fine with it as it is and there are plenty of threads covering other issues or topics to discuss, only 2 cover this issue and if you don't even care for it, why expressing concern for the discussion taking place here as it obviously doesn't concern you?

What is this? Please spare a thought for those unaffected?

The thread is called "Your thoughts about standard vs premium". So im posting my thoughts about this issue. Please DO NOT tell me what and where I can post!

 

[analog]

The thread is called "Your thoughts about standard vs premium". So im posting my thoughts about this issue. Please DO NOT tell me what and where I can post!

I do not tell you what to post and where to post, merely reacting to it and questioning why you posted it ( don't tell me not to react and question it ).
I was reacting to the content of your post, not the fact you're posting.

 

[gtracedriver]

I think outsourcing on the Forza series seriously hurt the games, especially where Turn 10 had to go for it... Viet Nam??

I agree that Polyphony needs more people on the modeling team, but they're first Party to SONY, and they write the checks. I've been meaning to make a "Memo to SONY" post but haven't got around to it yet. Been having too much fun with GT4.


I'm beginning to think this argument isn't valid any more.

lol GT4 cars are more accurate than Forza2.

 

[steve30x]

Did you really have to quote all the pictures?

 

[Luminis]

Sigh... I'll bite.

(I hope the pictures will show up, had some trouble with imageshack lately.)

So, yeah, GT4 could match games like Forza 2 in terms of (photomode) textures, but that doesn't change the fact that the 3D models of the cars themselfes are inferior to models from the current gen - even from older current gen games. That's what people have been saying. The 3D models are inferior. The modelling of the cars is inferior. That's it. And there's little to argue about.

I disagree on that because the level of detail on GT4 cars were on the limits of PS2

That's the exact reason why last-gen stuff is bad.

 

[Akira AC]

Sigh... I'll bite.


(I hope the pictures will show up, had some trouble with imageshack lately.)

So, yeah, GT4 could match games like Forza 2 in terms of (photomode) textures, but that doesn't change the fact that the 3D models of the cars themselfes are inferior to models from the current gen - even from older current gen games. That's what people have been saying. The 3D models are inferior. The modelling of the cars is inferior. That's it. And there's little to argue about.


That's the exact reason why last-gen stuff is bad.

What I meant is that the number of polygons in each car had to be lower,so some trims had to be painted instead of being design,that is what I expect from standards is to have those trims designed instead of being painted,I could be wrong but this kind of limitations is what made the GT4 designs have some trims painted.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

Although I voted for DLC packs after release, I want to add to this.

After PD release GT5 I personally feel they shouldn't bother developing GT6. What they should do is convert all standard cars to premium via DLC but also release new tracks and add additional online features. So what basically happens over the next few years is GT5 becomes GT6 via DLC.

 

[Devedander]

Again that is just your opinion. Some of us are content with the standard cars for various reasons. At least with a standard car we can still enjoy the physics engine whilst driving one and still use one of these to drive around the fantastic tracks and race online.

There it goes again... literally every time... tangential sidetrack.

So 800 cars isn't a failure because you will only notice the difference between a premium or a standard car when either watching a replay or using cockpit view. As neither of these apply to me im grateful that we have 800 standard cars.

As I said I went through it all here:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=3923178&highlight=manage+expectation#post3923178

But in short it's a failure because they directly implied if not outright said there would be 1000 high quality cars. Any argument that it wasn't literally promised is pedantic at best and has to overlook a gigantic lie of omission. The fact they have now dropped back to less than that makes it a failure regardless of how useable the alternatives are.

 

[II IVORBIGUN II]

Just out of curiousity but suppose PD release DLC pack which consists of 10 standard cars that have now been converted into premium. Would you pay for this and if so what amount would you be willing to pay?

There it goes again... literally every time... tangential sidetrack.



.

Why is that a sidetrack. Just stating that with a standard car I can still enjoy what GT5 offers i.e physics, racing online with a standard car.

Lets face it no amount of moaning is going to change the decision by PD. This is why im trying to look ahead i.e my last two posts.

 

[Spagetti69]

Why pay for hat should have Bern in from the begining?

Alot of unscrupulous developers have been accused of short changing on there games only to add paid dlc of what should have originaly been in the game.

Street fighter had costumes for download on release day of the game for example.

I'm afraid they bit off more than they could chew and set there sights too high.

Still the box will say over 1000 cars, so mission accomplished in some respect.