Your thoughts about "standard" vs. "premium"

[sher_da_putt]

@OCDrummer151

Car enthusiasts usually have a wide range of cars that they like, a lot of people that play GT are car enthusiasts. I reckon 1/6 of the cars in the game I will use, and considering all the other millions who will be playing, the more cars the better.

 

[trk29]

I hope you're not talking about me...

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v...rrent=Drifting_in_Gran_Turismo_5_Prologue.flv

I've been sim racing for many years and love it, I was just saying how the every day cars can be a lot of fun and made a reference to something I used to do back in the GT2 days just for goofing off.

Very Nice drifting:tup:

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Actually there are some people who DO get to drive supercars in real life that would like to drive them in a video game too.
I am the shop foreman of a Mercedes-Benz/Porsche dealership. I just got back from the Porsche driving school In Birmingham, AL for some annual Porsche training. While driving those cars on a track is fun, you don't really get to push the limits as much as you want to because you actually have to worry about going off the track and wrecking cars.

This entire paragraph applies to any car owner, though. Some dude in Tokyo probably wants to know if the Wagon R he's stuck with can beat up on some bigger cars on Laguna Seca, So again, why just supercars?

Just like I said, the only people who care about the Acura Integras in this game are people that have them in real life, and everybody knows that the supercars need more attention.

Strange, I don't. They're great, but if the focus becomes nothing but supercars, GT becomes more like most every other racing game out there. No true car enthusiast only cares about the supercars, because that's overlooking a lot of incredibly interesting metal.

Because this is a thread called "Your thoughts about standard vs premium", that doesn't imply it is specifically about graphic models. The new physics applied to the 'old GT4 models' can effect alot on someones opinion of the " recycled PS2 car models", and therefor effect their "thoughts on standard vs premiums".

Fair enough; though this particular discussion we all seem to be having involves the graphics. Nobody's questioned the physics; I think it's safe to say we all expected the two tiers to get an identical physics system, because it'd be frankly stupid if they didn't. There's no arguments there. But "the physics are good" isn't much of a counter-point to the complaints of the graphics being last-gen. For the same reason "they're pretty" wouldn't be considered a valid excuse for shoddy physics. That's what I meant; yeah, the thread is about the two tiers in general, but ignoring the facts about the graphics to focus on the physics is just arguing through distraction. And I accept that for some, as long as they're getting the newest physics engine, they don't seem to care how the models look. That's fine too. But it doesn't change the fact the Standards are behind the curve.

That is subjective to opinion, as there are plenty of car models from 'this gen' racing games that are visually on par with the standard GT5 models. Maybe not 3d modelling wise, but from a visual standpoint of just looking at the car on the screen.

Look at what you quoted; you even made sure to bold the line where I specifically mentioned the models. And you say "maybe not 3d modelling wise"... thanks for agreeing!

 

[Devedander]

As stated I think we all can agree that the lighting engine in GT5 is looking to be fantastic, color saturation across the board and the physics engine all look very promising... but those do not have anything to do with premium or standard... they are universal engines in the game and simply apply to everything.

When discussing standard vs premium you are pretty much reduced to:

Interior/undercarriage modeling
Model quality/textures
Damage extent
High beams
(suspected) cockpit view

Again the physics engine and lighting engine have nothing to do with standards vs premiums... everything in GT5 gets a great lighting engine and as far as we know all the cars get a great physics engine (I really hope that doesn't go south).

 

[Akira AC]

As stated I think we all can agree that the lighting engine in GT5 is looking to be fantastic, color saturation across the board and the physics engine all look very promising... but those do not have anything to do with premium or standard... they are universal engines in the game and simply apply to everything.

When discussing standard vs premium you are pretty much reduced to:

Interior/undercarriage modeling
Model quality/textures
Damage extent
High beams
(suspected) cockpit view

Again the physics engine and lighting engine have nothing to do with standards vs premiums... everything in GT5 gets a great lighting engine and as far as we know all the cars get a great physics engine (I really hope that doesn't go south).

Agreed but I have to say this time that texturing techniques really matter in the car look on the track (PS not talking about the model)since new textures are being added to all cars in GT5,new model surfaces should be expected,since the new lighting engine was made the whole texturing system was also made and therefore all cars will look better on track and in race,that is what really matter in a driving simulator.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Agreed but I have to say this time that texturing techniques really matter in the car look on the track (PS not talking about the model)since new textures are being added to all cars in GT5,new model surfaces should be expected,since the new lighting engine was made the whole texturing system was also made and therefore all cars will look better on track and in race,that is what really matter in a driving simulator.

Other than hopeful guessing, where has it ever been mentioned all textures were going to be improved? Since we have barely seen any evidence of that so far (the C5R's dithering with gray/white dots seems to be taken care of).

 

[Akira AC]

Other than hopeful guessing, where has it ever been mentioned all textures were going to be improved? Since we have barely seen any evidence of that so far (the C5R's dithering with gray/white dots seems to be taken care of).

Wrong,the reflection system have to apply transition lighting,because lighting sources changes and their intensity change, which was not the case of GT4,since the lighting is dynamic the texture response also has to be change

A practical example would be painting a real car,each time you have to use a base layer to change the colour of your car,if you change directly it will not look as good as you may expect,but in the case of GT5,if the texturing system of standard is not change it will not keep with the lighting engine,which was change and optimize for the new hardware,the change of texture is not a wish or a desire is mandatory,specially if the cars are being updated to the new gen of consoles.

BTW have a look in the GT web page and check these quotes:

- "Dirt, Scratches, and Dents,This is damage that can be visually seen, and involves the vehicle collecting dirt, scratches and dents. This level of damage affects both premium and standard cars"

-"The massive lineup of cars from past Gran Turismo games has been beautifully recreated through the latest technology and the Playstation 3’s cutting-edge graphics"

Both of these features need to apply a new texturing system for all cars,and since all cars do get dirty and do race in 24 hrs races I don't see point of you argument.

 

[Devedander]

Wrong,the reflection system have to apply transition lighting,because lighting sources changes and their intensity change, which was not the case of GT4,since the lighting is dynamic the texture response also has to be change

A practical example would be painting a real car,each time you have to use a base layer to change the colour of your car,if you change directly it will not look as good as you may expect,but in the case of GT5,if the texturing system of standard is not change it will not keep with the lighting engine,which was change and optimize for the new hardware,the change of texture is not a wish or a desire is mandatory,specially if the cars are being updated to the new gen of consoles.

BTW have a look in the GT web page and check these quotes:

- "Dirt, Scratches, and Dents,This is damage that can be visually seen, and involves the vehicle collecting dirt, scratches and dents. This level of damage affects both premium and standard cars"

-"The massive lineup of cars from past Gran Turismo games has been beautifully recreated through the latest technology and the Playstation 3’s cutting-edge graphics"

Both of these features need to apply a new texturing system for all cars,and since all cars do get dirty and do race in 24 hrs races I don't see point of you argument.

I think you are wandering dangerously far back into territory you don't understand...

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I think you are wandering dangerously far back into territory you don't understand...

+1.

Dirt is incredibly simple to add to a car in-game, requiring no changes to the textures on the car. Scratches too. I'm curious how accurate "dents" will be modelled, since they will need an obvious change in the model's wireframe. On the other hand, GT4 uses textures to simulate depth, dents on Standards could be the same thing.

 

[OCDrummer151]

SlipZtrEm, get a life. I'm not sure if anybody else here has noticed, but practically every other post on here is from him. When this game comes out, do you plan on actually playing it, or just posting some new threads asking what everybody thinks about it and then criticizing all their replies??

 

[gtracedriver]

Of course it was.


So, basically, you're saying that it's unfair to pass judgment based on a screen grab, so you're rather going to comment on how the standard cars will compare to the competition based on what you imagine they will look llike?

Yeah I mean they haven't shown anything and btw in that comparison pic the GT5 looks better. The Forza3 pics you posted has completely exposed the non existing head lights. There are probably many more things but that one is most obvious

 

[sennarose88]

Here is another link to throw some fuel on the debate fire http://www.gtpla.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/gran-turismo-5-rome-5.jpg What most are saying is that if it was in GT4, and carried over, it is standard. Ok, well in the picture I linked, both the 69 Camaro and 69 Corvette where in GT4, and also in the Standard car video. The Mustang ahead of them, in the picture was in GT5P (suppose to all be premium), as it was a 07, I believe (notice the orange reflectors/lights on the back bumper that was not on that car in GT4, which was an 05). They all have clear windows too. I know the Camaro has been shown in great detail, but not the inside of it except what we can see through the windows. I also know that it shows the highbeam lights on the Corvette, indicating that it is a premium car, but what if high beams were the default headlight setting for that particular car. It says the standard cars only have one headlight setting, it does not say low beams only. I personally think what we see in this picture is a mix of both standard and premium. Premium are also suppose to be down to the last screw, but where are the screws to hold the side mirror on the Camaro?

Just more to think about, haha.

But, all the cars in that screenshots are premiums. The '69 Corvette Stingray is premium, and actually there are two Camaros: The SS one is Standard, and the Z28 one (the one in that screenshot) is premium.

Hey PD, is that too hard to modelling two cars that exactly the same?

 

[Tenacious D]

The standard cars are taken from GT4, low poly and low res textures included. Theres no what they are better or even close to the one in Forza 3 or any other racing game with productions cars in this gen.

It's fine if they don't bother you. As has also been restated numerous times in this thread, that's not really a counter-argument to "they are last-generation models that don't measure up to the standards of this generation of racers". Your opinion that they're acceptable is perfectly, well, acceptable. But that doesn't somehow make the Standard models anything other than 5 year old, one-piece models, that can't compare to modern car models from numerous other games.

Nope, it's still quite valid. I can spot quite a few glaring differences, like the modeled panel gaps, and the headlights are actually 3D in the Forza picture in the 1st and 3rd comparisons; and of course you chose the least flattering, outdated shots of Forza 2 (not even 3? seriously?) with photomode shots of GT4. And even then I can pick them apart.

Yes, you can pick them apart by hindsight.

I already posted images which indicate that GT4's headlights are 3D modeled, and as far as I know, all are modeled. And as for those modeled panel gaps in Forza, it doesn't show.

And this is the thing: on paper, Forza 2 is supposed to blow GT4 out of the water. If I post comparison shots, there shouldn't be any comparison. GT4 should look like tin foil and paper mache to Forza's glitter and gold. And like it or not, Forza 2 is just barely three years old now. It's a "this gen" game, and you can't say it isn't. GT4 is undeniably last gen, way last gen, on hardware next to last place in processing power. But it doesn't always look like it, not by a long shot. What did Dan Greenawalt say? "Look at this car," and he points to the sports car zipping across the screen. "All of the surfaces are round and smooth. This generation isn't about polygons, Doug, it's about shaders."

Maybe Dan is more right than he knows: that it's not how many polygons you have, but it's what you do with them that counts. Here are a couple more of mine. The Forza Celica I painted won a competition.

I have a lot more to share, some images which you might not believe came unmodified from GT4.

 

[Zonda_Guy]

Definitely like the GT4 shot better.

 

[JDMKING13]

Yeah I mean they haven't shown anything and btw in that comparison pic the GT5 looks better. The Forza3 pics you posted has completely exposed the non existing head lights. There are probably many more things but that one is most obvious

The GT5 shots look better 👍, even though they some say the car model it self is better in Forza3. IMO just comparing the pictures GT5 looks better. There are some good Forza3 shots out there though those where not the best.

 

[Smallhorses]

Given that the full car list for GT5 has not yet been released I am a little confused as to how certain people are getting about what cars will and will not be included in the game.

I'm even more confused about how this has morphed into a Forza vs GT car list flame war.

Please get this topic back on track now, its a discussion thread for GT Standard vs Premium cars, so please keep it on topic.


Scaff

Less than a week has passed since Scaff's post quoted above, and yet we still have folks dragging Forza vs. GT arguments in here. 👎

Please for the love of polygons, leave it out or this thread is going to have a meeting with the padlock too.

 

[Tenacious D]

But there are people here who are saying that the Standard cars don't even resemble current gen standards. So I can't post comparison shots, and they can say whatever they want, even if it isn't entirely justified?

That's not fair. I protest and pout.

 

[Dravonic]

Less than a week has passed since Scaff's post quoted above, and yet we still have folks dragging Forza vs. GT arguments in here. 👎

Please for the love of polygons, leave it out or this thread is going to have a meeting with the padlock too.

In all fairness, I think this is far from a GT vs Forza flame war. It's actually relevant to the discussion. A legitimate way to find out how good or bad standard cars are. And probably the only way.

As long as people thread lightly and refrain from posting flame baits, it shouldn't cause any problems.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

(EDIT) - To what Dravonic said: tree'd.

SlipZtrEm, get a life. I'm not sure if anybody else here has noticed, but practically every other post on here is from him. When this game comes out, do you plan on actually playing it, or just posting some new threads asking what everybody thinks about it and then criticizing all their replies??

But there are people here who are saying that the Standard cars don't even resemble current gen standards. So I can't post comparison shots, and they can say whatever they want, even if it isn't entirely justified?

That's not fair. I protest and pout.

Meh, I know what you're saying, and I've never really argued the overall look. But you keep using it as an argument when the point a few of us are trying to make is that model-wise, they're not current gen. They are one-piece models; the standard for numerous titles this generation is multi-piece models. As the Premiums prove, it's required for any realistic damage, and as other games prove, it's required for any bodypart-swapping. I don't see how that's arguable. PD are masters of the lighting realm, but these models are last generation.

...all that said... congrats on that painting win. You have more patience than I, sir!

 

[Tenacious D]

What Dravonic said.

Honestly, no one is saying that the Standard cars are unimpeachable, especially as they probably lack cockpits. Certain games released last fall do look much better. But to say that the car models blow, the only way to respond is with graphic evidence. Or else just say, "Nuh uh."

And by the way, I'm not even saying Forza 2 graphics are impeachable.

 

[Smallhorses]

So it's all speculation. The topic at hand here is GT5 standard cars vs. GT5 Premium cars, which we've for the most part only experienced through a few demos, some screenshots and some videos, but it seems enough to spur some discussion, and that's what's being allowed to carry on. 👍

Until we get our own hands on the released version of GT5 to compare the in-game features, it seems pointless, and indeed off-topic for this thread to make GT5 vs. Forza 3, GT4 vs. Forza 2 & GT4 vs. GT5 comparisons. 👎

It wasn't directed at one person in particular, so no pouting necessary, there's been a lot of mention of Forza throughout many posts within the last 24hrs, we're just asking that it's kept to a reasonable and friendly minimum if possible.

 

[Organ-Donor]

I would rather have sub par 3d car modeling (but still accurate) with excelent lighting effects, than awesome 3d car models with sub par lighting. The illusion and way you perceive the image is totally effected by the lighting effects. 3d models can look flat, dull, and almost 2d due to bad lighting. Of course I will be the happiest to take the best of both worlds with the Premium models. Also nice paintwork on that F2 Celica Ten D.

 

[The_Paladin]

Yes, you can pick them apart by hindsight.

I already posted images which indicate that GT4's headlights are 3D modeled, and as far as I know, all are modeled. And as for those modeled panel gaps in Forza, it doesn't show.

And this is the thing: on paper, Forza 2 is supposed to blow GT4 out of the water. If I post comparison shots, there shouldn't be any comparison. GT4 should look like tin foil and paper mache to Forza's glitter and gold. And like it or not, Forza 2 is just barely three years old now. It's a "this gen" game, and you can't say it isn't. GT4 is undeniably last gen, way last gen, on hardware next to last place in processing power. But it doesn't always look like it, not by a long shot. What did Dan Greenawalt say? "Look at this car," and he points to the sports car zipping across the screen. "All of the surfaces are round and smooth. This generation isn't about polygons, Doug, it's about shaders."

Maybe Dan is more right than he knows: that it's not how many polygons you have, but it's what you do with them that counts. Here are a couple more of mine. The Forza Celica I painted won a competition.

I have a lot more to share, some images which you might not believe came unmodified from GT4.

Forza 2 model is far more detailed (with interior also), GT4 models is just a bit more accurate. Forza model would look much better than it looks with a better ilumination.
GT4 model is way too low poly, thats easy to spot and will look even more noticeable with more resolution and a premium car next to it.

What are you trying to prove? that the ilumination save the fact that its an obvious low poly car with lack of detail? Put both models under a good ilumination and its clear which one belong to each gen.

 

[Spagetti69]

Maybe the dents are painted on too.

The person who's on about forza's colours. Have you been into the livery editor and seen the range of colours available? Infinate would be a good description.

 

[Organ-Donor]

Maybe the dents are painted on too.

The person who's on about forza's colours. Have you been into the livery editor and seen the range of colours available? Infinate would be a good description.

I don't know if you are referring to me but when I mentioned color in Forza, I was talking about the color saturation as in how vibrant the color scheme looks in the overall presentation of the game.

 

[Spagetti69]

I don't know if you are referring to me but when I mentioned color in Forza, I was talking about the color saturation as in how vibrant the color scheme looks in the overall presentation of the game.

It wasn't directed at you. Are the colours too vibrant or not enough.
Personally I adjust settings on my tv, to my preferences.

 

[steve30x]

Just like I said, the only people who care about the Acura Integras in this game are people that have them in real life, and everybody knows that the supercars need more attention.

That is an untrue statement. I dont own a car (I have driven a few cars and done some track racing) but I like to drive the integra's , civic's , mini's etc.

 

[Scaff]

Actually there are some people who DO get to drive supercars in real life that would like to drive them in a video game too.
I am the shop foreman of a Mercedes-Benz/Porsche dealership. I just got back from the Porsche driving school In Birmingham, AL for some annual Porsche training. While driving those cars on a track is fun, you don't really get to push the limits as much as you want to because you actually have to worry about going off the track and wrecking cars.

Just like I said, the only people who care about the Acura Integras in this game are people that have them in real life, and everybody knows that the supercars need more attention.

Could not agree with you less.

Like you I also work in the motor industry (two decades in dealership, for manufacturers and suppliers) and have attended and run a number of driving schools.

However I personally feel that all cars in the game need attention, not just the supercars. I don't own an Integra, but have driven a fair few of them to know that its one of the greats (Evo magazine declared it the best FWD car ever).

A cars significance is not determined simply by its status in the supercar hierarchy, many other factors are involved and as such all cars should be given the same level of attention.


Scaff

 

[Snaeper]

But I don't give a crap about what kaz says he made the game for. If I want to drive my car, than I'll drive my car. I don't want to play NFS or Forza, because they are not realistic. I want a simulator that I can drive nice cars. And btw, I'll bet kaz's cars are much nicer than most peoples, so that argument is null.

Pulling this from a few pages back to respond to one little tid bit. I said "Founded". This was before Yamauchi-san owned a Porsche 911 GT3, Nissan GT-R etc. and was living off the successful fame that was Gran Turismo. His pitch was made, then he spent the next 5 years living in an office building developing the first Gran Turismo with 6-7 others supposedly.

SlipZtrEm, get a life. I'm not sure if anybody else here has noticed, but practically every other post on here is from him. When this game comes out, do you plan on actually playing it, or just posting some new threads asking what everybody thinks about it and then criticizing all their replies??

There are worst offenders than him, but I would suggest you try making an effort at ignoring him if it bothers you... or at least sounding more mature when you bring it up. Otherwise I'll wonder what a Porsche dealer is doing hiring someone who acts like he's still in high school.

I would also recommend taking a solitary approach at how you communicate your views and interests. Using terms like "we" to describe your agenda has obviously backfired and trying to rally everyone behind you to slander another member isn't a recommended strategy either.

For the record as well: practically every other post was not made by him, technically speaking of course.

 

[analog]

Could not agree with you less.

Like you I also work in the motor industry (two decades in dealership, for manufacturers and suppliers) and have attended and run a number of driving schools.

However I personally feel that all cars in the game need attention, not just the supercars. I don't own an Integra, but have driven a fair few of them to know that its one of the greats (Evo magazine declared it the best FWD car ever).

A cars significance is not determined simply by its status in the supercar hierarchy, many other factors are involved and as such all cars should be given the same level of attention.


Scaff

Totally agree, and might I add that even cars which are totally crap according to Evo Magazine or any magazine for that matter ( or even according to my own opinion ) might actually be fun to experience in a game
even for the fact they actually are crap.
Every car if included in the game deserves the same level of attention simply for the fact it's a car chosen to be realistically replicated in a game.
Some people around here are so narrowminded it's becoming scary.