Forza

Cobra_UK
Well, played the Forza Motorsport (FM) Demo at last and I must say in terms of the actual driving it left me breathless and I just can’t stop playing it.

Fantastic visuals, scope, physics, controls and just so incredibly realistic.

The online capabilities and 2 player will without a doubt knock GT4 from the top spot as the “Best Driving Game”. Especially since GT4 does not even have 2 player custom/tuned features and no ability to save those replays. FM developers really need to ensure that those features are available in their game and I think then they’ll have an ace up their sleeves.

There are also some things that worry me.

Since I have had no chance to see a replay yet I am still dubious as to how cinematic and professional the replays will look.

Another thing that I’m very much concerned about is the whole car damage, car servicing, car valeting, fuel consumption and tyre wear business. Mainly worried about the damage, since it’s a great task to undertake in terms of visual, car behaviour once damaged and more importantly the repairs costs. To be honest I would have preferred a simulated damage system with an icon on the HUD with a colour system portraying the level of damage. Visually I think it can be very hit and miss. I would be absolutely amazing if the damage system was similar to Rallisport Challenge 2 but since FM is doing so many other things on top I don’t think it will be possible on current hardware. But we can always hope that FM will pull it off.

The tracks are fantastic in FM but the worrying aspect is the human element. In the demo the driver seems too high up in the car and there seems to be much-needed lack of motion capture. If there will be open top cars in FM then the driver look and animation needs to be on-par or better than GT. On the XBOX hardware this should not be too hard. The other thing was the spectator element. Very bad 2D cardboard looking spectators and no inclination of start/finish flag holders or pit-crews so far. Since the whole human element is 3D in GT4 and it is done on the weaker hardware that is PS2 I expect the same human aspect visuals if not more. In GT4 if large numbers of spectators could not be achieved it went for quality rather than quantity. I hope FM will do the same.

Lastly the visuals are brilliant but something somehow seems wrong. I’ve noticed a lot of pixelation on certain textures, which doesn’t help but the main problem is I believe the lighting. Things just seem to look too much like computer generated visuals whereas GT4 manages a very real look. FM needs to address this as it’s just visual trickery and with the advanced hardware of the XBOX I’m sure they can.

That being said these are fears about things that have not even been confirmed and I’m actually quite optimistic.

Roll on Forza Motorsport! 👍
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Thanks for being one of the first Forza fans to have a logical outlook on the game along with good critisim. It's just nice to see someone that isn't all anti-GT4 and pro-Forza.

I agree with you about car damage, it's a very tricky thing. It should be interesting to see how it comes out.
 
I'm glad he said one of, there has been a few before. I have to say though I don't see Forza knocking GT4 off the top spot even though GT4 doesn't have online.
 
live4speed
I'm glad he said one of, there has been a few before. I have to say though I don't see Forza knocking GT4 off the top spot even though GT4 doesn't have online.
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Definitely, but even being compared to it in a favorable light would be quite an achievement for a competitor.

With Enthusia, we could have 3 AAA console racing games instead of just 1. Some people here would rather just have one undisputed game, which is kind of disturbing.
 
"Pc" based games will definitely look better and maybe be good but what all the other game lacks and which would really surprise me in Forza is the way GT simulates the understeer (I'm less happy with the oversteer) there's no game ever on any machine that simulates a regular car understeer and the way the acceleration-weight-cornering is done in GT no matter what people say it's the most realistic in a video-game I can testify as I almost learned to drive my FWD car in it and I sucessfully improved my real-life driving based on what I was doing ingame ! Even tried the GT cornering,braking on the real nurburgring and I had no problems plus I even did overtake motobikes in corners with my "lousy" 235hp

I don't really care which one is better actually I'll buy both if they both are but I'm plaiyng GT series since the no1 and I'm not stopping now ;)

edit:
the oversteer and RWD cars don't look that realistic in GT tough but since except for a really quick MR2 test I never driven anything else than a 4x4 or FWD I can't really tell.

Any words on the forza gameplay realism ? (take your car go out and do the same you do ingame if you crash then it's not realistic enough ;) lol)
 
Actually your very wrong, Live for speed S1 does understeer more relitically than GT4, Live for speed S2 will improve this, Forza does it easilly on par with GT4 when the driving aids are off. GT3 was not near the most relistic driving game, GT4 is better but not by a huge difference.
 
live4speed
Actually your very wrong, Live for speed S1 does understeer more relitically than GT4, Live for speed S2 will improve this, Forza does it easilly on par with GT4 when the driving aids are off. GT3 was not near the most relistic driving game, GT4 is better but not by a huge difference.
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Uh, he said GT3 not GT4. I've noticed that LFS is pretty realistic. NOt really fun at all(to me!). But fairly realistic. The understeer in GT3 is pretty well transmitted to the player.

Also, GT4 will be a large difference over GT3. Since that was one of the main focuses of GT4. They new that the GT3 physics engine had problems and they're trying to correct. But as I always say, let's wait and see.
 
Well GT4 is more realistic than GT3, so if something is more realistic than GT4 it doesn't take a genius to figure that it's better than GT3 either. Besides I didn't want any of the GT4 is the best can I kiss KY's ass please people saying, it's better than GT3 but not GT4.

As for the differences I've played GT3, GT4:P and GT4 and there are differences for the better, but the fact remains they arn't THAT much more realistic, they've pushed the PS2 to it's limits it can't do any more than it is.
 
Swift
Uh, he said GT3 not GT4. I've noticed that LFS is pretty realistic. NOt really fun at all(to me!). But fairly realistic. The understeer in GT3 is pretty well transmitted to the player.

Also, GT4 will be a large difference over GT3. Since that was one of the main focuses of GT4. They new that the GT3 physics engine had problems and they're trying to correct. But as I always say, let's wait and see.
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GT3 had stupid steering assist which prevented understeer :x
So GT3 could never have more realistic understeer than LFS.

Btw Swift, maybe you should play Live for Speed more and try harder because it's not as accesible as GT,.. but imo the racing itself is way better.
 
Live for speed is a quality driving experiance, just ignore the menu and graphics and you will have a great time.

I regularly play S1 online with the DFP and I must say the input you get back from the steering wheel is truly astounding.

Heres a Screenshot from S2's suspension model.

dwish_lfswip.jpg


I hope S2 comes out soon, I hear it's in alpha stages right now about to goto Beta !
 
Pak
GT3 had stupid steering assist which prevented understeer :x
So GT3 could never have more realistic understeer than LFS.

Btw Swift, maybe you should play Live for Speed more and try harder because it's not as accesible as GT,.. but imo the racing itself is way better.
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A sim game that doesn't offer steering assist is just begging to be a bad seller. If you go to the "simulation" setting on GT3 it's a whole different game. So please don't say it had steering assists. It had better have them! How annoying would it be to have to go 50mph around the whole track? My point is realism is good. But we must always realize that it's a game and games are played for fun.

As far as playing more LFS. I'm not too much into PC games of any type. For the sheer fact that constant upgrades are needed. Just my personal opinion. I'm not putting down PC gamers or players of LFS. It's just not my thing.



Live4speed
As for the differences I've played GT3, GT4:P and GT4 and there are differences for the better, but the fact remains they arn't THAT much more realistic, they've pushed the PS2 to it's limits it can't do any more than it is.
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That's what they said when GT3 was released. heh heh. I may have asked you this before, but have you been to a track or autrocross as a driver before? Just wondering since you have said the the physics aren't realistic.
 
Pak
:P
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Thanks for the heads up.... *I wish I was playing S2 regularly online* :)

What I meant was that I play S1* regularly online and it has to be one of the best for the sensation of driving, GTR is great but somtimes I feel very detached mainly through some dodgy Force Feedback but if you like Live For Speed I recomend you guys try this out.

http://www.rfactor.net/

R-Factor is amazing there's a multiplayer demo and the Force Feedback is amazing I'd put it on my most wanted list above GT4 & Forza..
I'd suggest anyone who has any interest in driving give it try..
 
Swift
A sim game that doesn't offer steering assist is just begging to be a bad seller. If you go to the "simulation" setting on GT3 it's a whole different game. So please don't say it had steering assists. It had better have them! How annoying would it be to have to go 50mph around the whole track? My point is realism is good. But we must always realize that it's a game and games are played for fun.
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Uhm wtf? GT3 had a steering assist wich prevents understeer by straightening the wheels. The problem was that you couldn't turn it off and if you could you wouldn't have to go 50mph around the whole track either. :X
And don't come with games are fun crap because some people see ultimate realism in games as fun. I'm glad that the steering assist does not exist in GT4 Prologue when played with a Driving Force Pro. :)
And apparently in GT4 you can turn it on or off.
 
Front
Thanks for the heads up.... *I wish I was playing S2 regularly online* :)

What I meant was that I play S1* regularly online and it has to be one of the best for the sensation of driving, GTR is great but somtimes I feel very detached mainly through some dodgy Force Feedback but if you like Live For Speed I recomend you guys try this out.

http://www.rfactor.net/

R-Factor is amazing there's a multiplayer demo and the Force Feedback is amazing I'd put it on my most wanted list above GT4 & Forza..
I'd suggest anyone who has any interest in driving give it try..
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My PC is crap. 👎

I always play PC sims at my friends though. So far, I've tried RBR, LFS, TOCA 2 (PC version is much better than the consoles), Xpand rally, Papyrus Grand prix legends, nascar 2003 season, and CMR 04. I haven't had any chance to dabble in the F12002 mods, since he never bought that game.

All I have to say is every one of the games listed is more compelling to race in than GT3 was. And that was without a force feedback wheel (ActLabs RS).

He tells me good things about the Rfactor demo though, so I'll play it next time I'm there.
 
Swift
I may have asked you this before, but have you been to a track or autrocross as a driver before? Just wondering since you have said the the physics aren't realistic.
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No you haven't asked me before, I've been at a few track days but I've never driven in competition. With GT3 you had ABS on all the time, you couldn't turn it off so that meant you wern't experiencing the cars fully, although it looks real and feels natural the cars themselves arn't spot on, for example the TVR Speed 12 topped out at around 140Mph in GT3, no big deal only 100Mph below it's estimated top speed, thats an extreme example but there are thigs like the Ford Lightening being 4wd in GT4, and getting technical the suspension model allows for you to change the camber and toe of your wheel, but when you race thewheels just move up and down as they were left when you set them, for example if you set the camber at 5 degrees the wheel is always cambered at 5 degrees, also theres no tyre deformation of psi to mess about with and the aerodynamics of some cars don't seem right, some have too much downforce but still go like **** off a shovel when they shouldn't. theres never any fear of your car flipping over, and ground effect cars don't take off when the air catches underneath them, theres more but I won't list them all, I don't like to seem like I'm discrediting PD for what they've done which is awesome, but I don't like to see people discrediting anything that tries to do better.
 
Pak
Uhm wtf? GT3 had a steering assist wich prevents understeer by straightening the wheels. The problem was that you couldn't turn it off and if you could you wouldn't have to go 50mph around the whole track either. :X
And don't come with games are fun crap because some people see ultimate realism in games as fun. I'm glad that the steering assist does not exist in GT4 Prologue when played with a Driving Force Pro. :)
And apparently in GT4 you can turn it on or off.
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LOL, uh...ok. Well, we're talking about driving with a controller, not a steering wheel. Wouldn't it be really, really annoying if you had to modulate the analog stick for every point during the travel of the wheel? That would be extremely difficult with a controller. I assume that's what you're talking about. With a wheel, this is not the case.

As far as the "fun" factor, companies produce games to make money. If they had the "ULTIMATE" realistic racing game, it would sell to about 5000 people that really want something like that. It really makes me laugh when people say they want the most realistic driving. Since GT has sold millions, I'm forced to acknowledge that they are doing a lot of things right.

anyway, since GT3 is what? About 4 years old now. I think that it's safe to say that if Forza and GT4 can't make leaps and bounds over GT3, then that's rather sad. GT3 was a fantastic game when it came out and can hang with a lot of games that have come out since then. All I'm saying is that GT3 physics were better then GT2 and GT4 physics will be better then GT3. Will they be better then Forza? NOBODY knows yet. We'll have to way until early spring to find out.

Live4speed
No you haven't asked me before, I've been at a few track days but I've never driven in competition. With GT3 you had ABS on all the time, you couldn't turn it off so that meant you wern't experiencing the cars fully,
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Cool just wondering. And I agree on the ABS point. Although when I drove my car on the track and broke HARD, I never got into the ABS. Now, I'm a novice at best when it comes to driving on the track, so that may have been it.

BTW, your other points make good sense as well.
 
I agree that GT4 control wise is about right for realism and gameplay, but the extra tuning options of Forza and damage as well as flippable cars would be an improvement imo, and since Forza has damage on all it's cars which can be totalled, I see this licensing won't allow it gubbins is bull****, but GT5 is supposed to have damage so lets see.
 
Swift
LOL, uh...ok. Well, we're talking about driving with a controller, not a steering wheel. It would be really, really annoying if you had to modulate the analog stick for every point during the travel of the wheel? That would be extremely difficult with a controller. I assume that's what you're talking about. With a wheel, this is not the case.

As far as the "fun" factor, companies produce games to make money. If they had the "ULTIMATE" realistic racing game, it would sell to about 5000 people that really want something like that. It really makes me laugh when people say they want the most realistic driving. Since GT has sold millions, I'm forced to acknowledge that they are doing a lot of things right.

anyway, since GT3 is what? About 4 years old now. I think that it's safe to say that if Forza and GT4 can't make leaps and bounds over GT3, then that's rather sad. GT3 was a fantastic game when it came out and can hang with a lot of games that have come out since then. All I'm saying is that GT3 physics were better then GT2 and GT4 physics will be better then GT3. Will they be better then Forza? NOBODY knows yet. We'll have to way until early spring to find out.
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GT3 also had the steering assist on with the wheel which made the handling feel extremely unresponsive and floaty etc. A on/off option like GT4 has would be better. I'm not saying all racing games should be ultimate simulations but an option to turn off steering assists in GT3 would have been nice. :)
It's always better to have more choice/options.
 
live4speed
I agree that GT4 control wise is about right for realism and gameplay, but the extra tuning options of Forza and damage as well as flippable cars would be an improvement imo, and since Forza has damage on all it's cars which can be totalled, I see this licensing won't allow it gubbins is bull****, but GT5 is supposed to have damage so lets see.
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I think damage is a double edged sword. Kinda like the penalty system in GT4(that's still in there right?) I mean, to be honest, there are SO many variables that go into damage. The basics being speed, wieght of car, the material you run into and of course the compound of the car. I can imagine how this could really enrage people to the point where it might get physical because someone ran them off the road. Or just nudged them into the wall enough to effect their accelleration/top speed. Is damage cool? Sure, as long as you can turn it off. heh heh.

Fliping cars. Well, that goes with the damage thing. But I must admit I would like to see that more then damage in general. That way people wouldn't fly into a corner doing 120mph, slam the brakes at corners entry, hit the wall and just keep on going. Know what I mean?

Oh when you said you'd been to the track, you meant as a driver correct? Not in competion(I haven't either).

Pak
It's always better to have more choice/options.
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I don't think anyone would argue with that! :)
 
Yep I've just been to bring what you drive track days, I'm definitely no Senna ;), as for the damage I think thwe way to implement it into a game and keep the fun factor is to make the mechanicals of your car stronger by quite a bit than real life. I think visual damage would have to be done very well to make it convincing, body planels have to bend, rip off, tear, crack and so on but to get knocked into the wall on the first bend and lose a wheel would be too frustrating so the mechanicals should be tougher imo, maybe have an option to adjust the mechanical damage effectiveness to suit your own level of skill. Anyway were moving away from the Forza and GT4 debate here.
 
Thing is, if I was in an online race, say on Gt4, and some one smashed me into a wall, and my car tore apart in a super realistic way, I wouldn't mind, I'd be busy thinking "corrr, I love damage". I want it as close to a real car as possible XD.

I wanna see cars smash in to barriers, flipping in the air, with parts flying everywhere, flames, smoke, oil, everything, oh and a slow motion replay mode with matrix style bullet time effects, with a camera I can position ANYWHERE.
 
Well when I get Forza we can get online and you can corrr all you like as I smash your pink Ferrari into a wall :).
 
code_kev
Thing is, if I was in an online race, say on Gt4, and some one smashed me into a wall, and my car tore apart in a super realistic way, I wouldn't mind, I'd be busy thinking "corrr, I love damage". I want it as close to a real car as possible XD.

I wanna see cars smash in to barriers, flipping in the air, with parts flying everywhere, flames, smoke, oil, everything, oh and a slow motion replay mode with matrix style bullet time effects, with a camera I can position ANYWHERE.
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I'd suggest you give Flatout a try

http://www.flatoutgame.com/

ragdoll physics on the driver, it's very funny in a twisted way :)
 
I tried (when I say tried, I mean played alot of) flatout and wasn't to impressed. The damage on that is also pretty limited, but the physics in it are TOP NOTCH. Fun though.
 
live4speed
Anyway were moving away from the Forza and GT4 debate here.
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Nah, we're talking about the various aspecs of the game, can't get anymore "into" this debate then that.

Cod Kev, sounds like you need to play burnout 3. I want to drive in a sim, not crash. I really don't care about that part. Not saying they shouldn't be part of the game, but it really shouldn't be a major "factor" in making a game better then another.
 
I meant whith regards to how I think damage should be implemented, I shouldv'e said I'm moving away from the debate, anyway it's good to be able to debate seriousely with someone here from time to time 👍.
 
I own BO3 on my xbox allready :).

IMO crashes can make a HUGE difference, they add further level of realism to a racing sim, meaning you must take FAR more care with your car etc. In real racing car condition and damage play a huge part. I'd also say it's a HUGE factor in making a game better, what would you rather have, GT4 with crap current bouncing off walls, or Gt4 with spectacular realistic crashes? :). I also want to drive a sim btw, I love racing sims.

CRASHING IS ALSO FUN!
 
Swift
I want to drive in a sim, not crash. I really don't care about that part. Not saying they shouldn't be part of the game, but it really shouldn't be a major "factor" in making a game better then another.
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I'd rather have the option of damage rather than no damage.

You could argue this about some of GT4's features.

Photomode I want to drive !!! not play virtual photographer
B-Spec Mode I want to drive !!! not play virtual racing manager

I think damage is an important part of racing if you don't like it you can turn it off just like GT4 you dont HAVE to play virtual photographer it's an option.

Options are good !
Features are good !
 

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