Forza

[tha_con]

Okay, again, Forza has better tire simulation. At least it can be gathered from the comments made by developers and the studies they have done.

Do not confuse this with physics, please. The two are not the same.

While forza may drive better and be less forgiving, it is not due to physics. Physics deals with gravity, g-force, inertia, etc.

GT4 has great phycis, the problem lies in the tire simulation.

Forza, in my opinion, from waht I"ve seen (and will elaborate one when I play the game) has good phyics, however there are elements that still need to be tuned, the game does however, benifit from better tire simulation, which allows the cars to stick to the road in a more realistic manner. This is what you need to point out, not physics.

Do not say that Forza has better phycis, I'm not sure if you have played GT4, but the physics are great, the tire simulation blows more than wind in chicago, when I have played both I'll pass judgement...

 

[Gil Abobeleira]

I never argued it didn't, but neither will forza

And you are misunderstanding physics. the reason that the cars are able to do what they do is because of rediculous tire simulation. They are extremely too sticky, the phyics (gravity, g-force, etc) all work well, the tire simulation is at fault.

No it isn't, the C9 is flawed because it has to much aero grip (as opposed to mechanical aka tyre grip). That's why it can corner so fast at certain corners (Flugplatz, Schwedenkreuz, Plantzgarten, etecetera)...

As a rule of thumb, a sportscar produces more aero grip than mechanical grip in speeds over 150 Km/h....

 

[tha_con]

No it isn't, the C9 is flawed because it has to much aero grip (as opposed to mechanical aka tyre grip). That's why it can corner so fast at certain corners (Flugplatz, Schwedenkreuz, Plantzgarten, etecetera)...

As a rule of thumb, a sportscar produces more aero grip than mechanical grip in speeds over 150 Km/h....

I'd love to agree with you, but in your arguement it is a one or few case scenario, tire simulation carries over to all of the cars in the game, regardless of speed and aero grip.

The C9 has downforce adequate enough, however the tires grip entirely too well. regardless of downforce, if your tires are too worn, you will slide out, and in the case of GT4, they are entirely too sticky, preventing the car from sliding out.

 

[Pak]

I never argued it didn't, but neither will forza

And you are misunderstanding physics. the reason that the cars are able to do what they do is because of rediculous tire simulation. They are extremely too sticky, the phyics (gravity, g-force, etc) all work well, the tire simulation is at fault.

Real tires are based on real physics too.
You could say that Polyphony modelled tyre physics wrong, laws like friction etc.
Btw, GT4 does have some odd suspension models, which are only obvious in the really stiff racecars. (compare it to GTR)
The slower/softer cars all look very natural imo.

 

[Dave A]

Okay, again, Forza has better tire simulation. At least it can be gathered from the comments made by developers and the studies they have done.

Do not confuse this with physics, please. The two are not the same.

While forza may drive better and be less forgiving, it is not due to physics. Physics deals with gravity, g-force, inertia, etc.

GT4 has great phycis, the problem lies in the tire simulation.

Forza, in my opinion, from waht I"ve seen (and will elaborate one when I play the game) has good phyics, however there are elements that still need to be tuned, the game does however, benifit from better tire simulation, which allows the cars to stick to the road in a more realistic manner. This is what you need to point out, not physics.

Do not say that Forza has better phycis, I'm not sure if you have played GT4, but the physics are great, the tire simulation blows more than wind in chicago, when I have played both I'll pass judgement...

I've playeed both the demo of Forza and GT4, and yes GT4's physics are great, but you get Forza's drivings aids turned off as I said it feels similar to GT4, only you feel more on the edge of losing control, you can't slam the throttle down so easilly. Also the tyre physics are very, very good in Forza, taking into account compound, pressure, temperature and so on, however the suspension models have been given just as much attention to detail. Each car in Forza features a virtual recreation of it's supension system and theyre the first game to implement full suspension physics. It also fatures a more advanced aerodynamics model since the cars ant governed by a simple downforce property, Forza has a virtual wind tunnel (it's not called this but it's the same principle and I can't remeber the name of it) system constantly running to determine how the air flows over your car at any given moment. All this has been taken from variouse interviews with the developers which are scattered across the web, search and ye shal find.

 

[98cobra]

I've playeed both the demo of Forza and GT4, and yes GT4's physics are great, but you get Forza's drivings aids turned off as I said it feels similar to GT4, only you feel more on the edge of losing control, you can't slam the throttle down so easilly. Also the tyre physics are very, very good in Forza, taking into account compound, pressure, temperature and so on, however the suspension models have been given just as much attention to detail. Each car in Forza features a virtual recreation of it's supension system and theyre the first game to implement full suspension physics. It also fatures a more advanced aerodynamics model since the cars ant governed by a simple downforce property, Forza has a virtual wind tunnel (it's not called this but it's the same principle and I can't remeber the name of it) system constantly running to determine how the air flows over your car at any given moment. All this has been taken from variouse interviews with the developers which are scattered across the web, search and ye shal find.

Sounds good.

 

[Pak]

I've playeed both the demo of Forza and GT4, and yes GT4's physics are great, but you get Forza's drivings aids turned off as I said it feels similar to GT4, only you feel more on the edge of losing control, you can't slam the throttle down so easilly. Also the tyre physics are very, very good in Forza, taking into account compound, pressure, temperature and so on, however the suspension models have been given just as much attention to detail. Each car in Forza features a virtual recreation of it's supension system and theyre the first game to implement full suspension physics. It also fatures a more advanced aerodynamics model since the cars ant governed by a simple downforce property, Forza has a virtual wind tunnel (it's not called this but it's the same principle and I can't remeber the name of it) system constantly running to determine how the air flows over your car at any given moment. All this has been taken from variouse interviews with the developers which are scattered across the web, search and ye shal find.

theyre the first game to implement full suspension physics

What about Richard Burns Rally? And I hope they're talking about consoles only.

Btw, Live for Speed S2 is gonna have detailed physics.
I think it's gonna be one of the best physics engines. I heard they even modelled how much tires deform under cornering and how much grip you gain or lose by it.

 

[Dave A]

Live for speed S2 isn't out yet, they may have only been talking about console racing games I don't know how the suspension works in either though since I've not read about it, but take GT4 for example all the suspension actually does is move the wheel up and down, theres more to suspension than that.

 

[tha_con]

Live for speed S2 isn't out yet, they may have only been talking about console racing games I don't know how the suspension works in either though since I've not read about it, but take GT4 for example all the suspension actually does is move the wheel up and down, theres more to suspension than that.

you are joking right? move the wheel up and down? I'm willing to agree in points, and give credit where credit is due...but the suspension model is much more complex than that...but whatever.

 

[TSi_Shiftz]

I don't want to bash you, but sayings like "GT4 Owns everything" or "is the uber king of sims" or "Gt will never be beaten" sound very fanboyish to me.

OMFG can I give you a freaking medal, I find it hard to comprehend the fact the GT4 is the greatest game ever and smokes everything in the ENTIRE universe because it has good graphics and a fanbase! I mean Forza "MUST" be crap because it dosn't have GT in front of the title. Geesh what were we thinking that a game COULD be good if it DIDN"T have the GT before the title, hell we're like rebels or something.

-Just a short rant for the flamboyant idiots.

 

[Dave A]

Thats basically all GT4 does, sure you can set the camber and toe in the settings but thats the only way they change, you watch GT4 in a replay with the camera right on one of the wheels and you can see that it moves up as you set it and it comes back down as you set it, thats all it does in GT4.

 

[Pak]

Live for speed S2 isn't out yet, they may have only been talking about console racing games I don't know how the suspension works in either though since I've not read about it, but take GT4 for example all the suspension actually does is move the wheel up and down, theres more to suspension than that.

Yeah I know it isn't out yet, I just wanted to tell that S2 is gonna have detailed physics. It'll mose likely be released before Forza though.
I also know that GT4's suspension isn't that impressive, but the slower/softer cars do 'look' natural. (which doesn't tell you much about the actual handling tho)

One thing that bothered me in all the previous GT's was that the cars didn't move when you would turn from left to right when standing still, they should move a bit.. just a physics flaw.

Some PC games really have detailed suspension physics

 

[Dave A]

OMFG can I give you a freaking medal, I find it hard to comprehend the fact the GT4 is the greatest game ever and smokes everything in the ENTIRE universe because it has good graphics and a fanbase! I mean Forza "MUST" be crap because it dosn't have GT in front of the title. Geesh what were we thinking that a game COULD be good if it DIDN"T have the GT before the title, hell we're like rebels or something.

-Just a short rant for the flamboyant idiots.

Why did you quote Lambo88, he's not a GT PWNS ALL fanboy. Neither is Tha_Con, at least he's making his points and his opinion is based on more than PD rocks and are perfect.

 

[TSi_Shiftz]

"can i give you a medal" I was praising him for being intelligent. I was agreeing with him (sp)

 

[Dave A]

Sorry, I though you were being sarcastic , sorry.

 

[TSi_Shiftz]

No problem, my problem is all these flamboyant, insupperably retaretd and just plain out empty minded individuals who can't appreciate a good game unless it has GT in the title. Really ticks my clock.... (Usess alternative wording.)

 

[kinigitt]

I just watched a trailer for LFS S2. WHOA!

anyway, back on topic: forza needs a good wheel. Until they get a good wheel to control the game with, the physics are kind of wasted.

Playing with a controller is possible with all the aids turned off, but it's like pulling teeth. I noticed that the game is much smoother to control when you set the ABS aid back on. Without it, the cars just lock the front brakes every time you touch them, and a complete loss of steering input results.

Somebody posted a link to a forza wheel somewhere before in this thread; is it specifically developed with forza in mind or did they just slap on the name on it?

 

[tha_con]

http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/7434/Speedster-3-Force-Shock-Unveiled

 

[kinigitt]

http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/7434/Speedster-3-Force-Shock-Unveiled

thanks for the link! 👍

And thanks for voicing your opinions. I think I understand why you're so negative when it comes to Forza now. But like live4speed said, that doesn't stop me from dissagreeing with you.

 

[tha_con]

no problem, guess I coulda posted it a few days ago when I found it, but it's still not a true FF wheel At least thats the impression I get from the article, they don't mention force feed back, only this "force shock" stuff...who knows.

 

[kinigitt]

no problem, guess I coulda posted it a few days ago when I found it, but it's still not a true FF wheel At least thats the impression I get from the article, they don't mention force feed back, only this "force shock" stuff...who knows.

watch the flash demo on the site. Sure looks like force feedback to me. They have a weird way of saying it though.

 

[tha_con]

watch the flash demo on the site. Sure looks like force feedback to me. They have a weird way of saying it though.

I don't think it's genuine force feedback though, I think it's driven by the outpout of vibration to the controller. At least that's the impression I get from it.

The reason I'm let to believe this is because it works with ALL RACING GAMES on xbox as they state, and in order for a game to support force feedback, it has to be programmed in, and I'm pretty sure that when Porject Gotham was released...there was no force feedback, nor the desire to code for it, same with the Italian Job, or the ORIGINAL Burnout for the xbox...

I think it's more of a generic wheel jerk when the wheel gets strong output from xbox for strong vibration, then it jerks. Basically collisions send strong vibration, while regular driving just sends mild, so the reg. driving would only cause it to shake, and impact would be a jerk.

Those are the thoughts I gathered from it anyway.

 

[Ubiquitous]

I may not have driven the C9 but I can tell you that lap he done round the nurb in that car would be impossible... he beat gold time by what 25 seconds or somthing even the devlopers never thought anyone could do that.

I'd point my finger at GT's physics or lack of real physics.

You say no game will come close to reaching real levels of simulation. Mabye not but they will be damn close it's just a shame GT4 is not in the catagory of coming close to replicating a true simulation of driving.

This was already discussed to death in another thread.

There are many factors why laps in games can be faster than in reality. I am not going to relist them again, but try and realise there is many things missing from games which will enable faster times.

As for cars putting wheels on the grass and spinning instantly... I don't see that happen all too often when I watch motorsports... if the driver puts a wheel onto the grass and doesn't control what happens properly then yes he will spin... but if controlled correctly it will not always result in a spin.

That Forza wheel.. seems ok if it has Force Feedback quality effects... Now all we have to do is see when Forza comes out...

But right now all I want to be released is GT4... it's so far ahead of GT3 it's going to impress me no matter what.

 

[Gek54]

Feel the road and G’s in every turn with ForceShock!

The power of 3 motors launches you right into the driving seat and lets you feel the gravel and mud on the street. Whatever you do to your car it will give it back to you through the wheel.

TeamXbox is soo full of BS. This statement is so misleading, if it was the manufacture making these statements it would qualify as false advertising.

 

[kinigitt]

TeamXbox is soo full of BS. This statement is so misleading, if it was the manufacture making these statements it would qualify as false advertising.

just typical prattle isn't it? Nothing to get worked up about.

 

[erahk64]

http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/7434/Speedster-3-Force-Shock-Unveiled

There is no info that it is the official Forza wheel.
Forza is only mentioned once in that link:

"The Speedster 3 ForceShock for Xbox has been specifically designed and tuned for use with Microsoft’s upcoming Forza Motorsports™ racing simulation game on Xbox."

Is that PR talk from the company to sell wheels or has the Forza developers optimized the game for that wheel ?
There is a pic with a Forza developer using that wheel but there are
other pics and videos with Forza developers using other wheel(s).
I think the official Forza wheel will be a announced by Microsoft.

 

[Gek54]

just typical prattle isn't it? Nothing to get worked up about.

Feeling G's is what TFF is all about and no xbox game gives vibration based on G-forces, so the statement is false. Saying "Whatever you do to your car it will give it back to you through the wheel" is also false and misleading.

 

[Cobra_UK]

Well, played the Forza Motorsport (FM) Demo at last and I must say in terms of the actual driving it left me breathless and I just can’t stop playing it.

Fantastic visuals, scope, physics, controls and just so incredibly realistic.

The online capabilities and 2 player will without a doubt knock GT4 from the top spot as the “Best Driving Game”. Especially since GT4 does not even have 2 player custom/tuned features and no ability to save those replays. FM developers really need to ensure that those features are available in their game and I think then they’ll have an ace up their sleeves.

There are also some things that worry me.

Since I have had no chance to see a replay yet I am still dubious as to how cinematic and professional the replays will look.

Another thing that I’m very much concerned about is the whole car damage, car servicing, car valeting, fuel consumption and tyre wear business. Mainly worried about the damage, since it’s a great task to undertake in terms of visual, car behaviour once damaged and more importantly the repairs costs. To be honest I would have preferred a simulated damage system with an icon on the HUD with a colour system portraying the level of damage. Visually I think it can be very hit and miss. I would be absolutely amazing if the damage system was similar to Rallisport Challenge 2 but since FM is doing so many other things on top I don’t think it will be possible on current hardware. But we can always hope that FM will pull it off.

The tracks are fantastic in FM but the worrying aspect is the human element. In the demo the driver seems too high up in the car and there seems to be much-needed lack of motion capture. If there will be open top cars in FM then the driver look and animation needs to be on-par or better than GT. On the XBOX hardware this should not be too hard. The other thing was the spectator element. Very bad 2D cardboard looking spectators and no inclination of start/finish flag holders or pit-crews so far. Since the whole human element is 3D in GT4 and it is done on the weaker hardware that is PS2 I expect the same human aspect visuals if not more. In GT4 if large numbers of spectators could not be achieved it went for quality rather than quantity. I hope FM will do the same.

Lastly the visuals are brilliant but something somehow seems wrong. I’ve noticed a lot of pixelation on certain textures, which doesn’t help but the main problem is I believe the lighting. Things just seem to look too much like computer generated visuals whereas GT4 manages a very real look. FM needs to address this as it’s just visual trickery and with the advanced hardware of the XBOX I’m sure they can.

That being said these are fears about things that have not even been confirmed and I’m actually quite optimistic.

Roll on Forza Motorsport! 👍

 

[Cobra_UK]

I forgot to mention the AI, here goes. Actually quite good. Nothing special, in fact on-par with GT4. BUT it's just a demo, I have no doubt that the full version of FM will have AI I'll be more than happy with.

Also on the plus side if there are any major bugs/glitches or other problems with the game these could be fixed though patches downloadable via XBOX Live.

I also have 2 questions. Will custom alloy wheels be available in FM. How about car interiors?

Another thing, it's actually more of a wish. Wouldn't it be great if through XBOX Live we could download bonus packs like in Project Gotham Racing 2?

 

[kinigitt]

I also have 2 questions. Will custom alloy wheels be available in FM. How about car interiors?

Another thing, it's actually more of a wish. Wouldn't it be great if through XBOX Live we could download bonus packs like in Project Gotham Racing 2?

Yeah, custom wheels are most definitely in. Whether or not they change the ridiculous profile of the tires is to be seen.

And it's likely that they'll release downloadable content, as this is a first party title.