Religion is contrived

  • Thread starter Danoff
  • 1,109 comments
  • 26,505 views
i have a young daughter, and although it pains me to do it, i am going to introduce her to the church and god. if she shows an interest, then i will get involved for her sake, but i wont fill her head with my thoughts and beliefs (although most of the christians here think i probably would).
if she likes it, she can go to church, i will even take her myself and sit through the services etc. but if she doesnt then so be it. my beliefs are my own. my daughter will form her own opinions about god and life in general. she will decide for herself if she believes in him or not. what i wont do is force my beliefs on her, i will let her decide the right road. no matter what she decides, i will love her no less.
 
ZAGGIN
i have a young daughter, and although it pains me to do it, i am going to introduce her to the church and god. if she shows an interest, then i will get involved for her sake, but i wont fill her head with my thoughts and beliefs (although most of the christians here think i probably would).
if she likes it, she can go to church, i will even take her myself and sit through the services etc. but if she doesnt then so be it. my beliefs are my own. my daughter will form her own opinions about god and life in general. she will decide for herself if she believes in him or not. what i wont do is force my beliefs on her, i will let her decide the right road. no matter what she decides, i will love her no less.

That sounds very wise and unexpected I might add.
 
pako
That sounds very wise and unexpected I might add.

why unexpected? i said before i have christian values.

i love my daughter, and i want her to experience everything this world has to offer. just because my experiences of god and religion were bad, it does not mean i have to taint hers. choice is a wonderful thing yunno. she can do what every she wants, and if that means going to church on a sunday morning, then thats what we'll do.
you shouldnt look too much into what is typed here. how can you judge the depth of someones character by what he posts? the internet gives anyone a level of anonimity that cant be realised in the real world. i can come here and say what ever i feel like and no one is any the wiser. in the real world, im more level headed. if you were talking to me face to face, you would see that im just as honest and caring as any christian, except i dont believe in god.
ive always admired (but never understood) the steadfast beliefs of those that pray to some higher being. i wish i could believe in something like that, but sadly i cant - im way too cynical for all that. i can understand how belief in god can inspire, it just doesnt inspire me.
to be honest, i was kinda spoiling for a fight with this whole god thing. i am anti-god and anti-religion, but i say live and let live. maybe my rants are just some pent-up aggression left over from my youth resurfacing.
 
ZAGGIN
why unexpected? i said before i have christian values.

Go back to your first post and you'll understand why.

However I must agree that it's a very mature thing to do coming from your experiences.
 
ZAGGIN
i find that remark insulting. just because i do not believe in god, does not make me an anti-christ, a satanist, or anything else. i have christian values, but i am not a christian. i resent is the fact that because i dont believe in god, i am looked down upon by those that do. we are all going to the same place yunno - i'll see all you bible-bashers in heaven. or is there a sign outside the pearly gates that says 'christians only'?

let me tell you a story. i live in the uk, and when i was in school, we all had to attend morning assembly before the day started. we would sit there and sing hymns and say prayers etc. why we had to was never explained to me.
anyway. there was this girl who would never go into assembly. instead she would sit outside the hall on her own, and wait for the service to finish. afterwards she would go to her classes, and carry on her day like the rest of us.
she was always looked upon as an outsider or a freak, because the ordinary christian kid could not understand why she never attended assembly. i later found out that she was a jehovahs witness and because of the fact that she didnt believe in god, she was precluded from most of the schools activities.
on many occasions i would see her being picked on or bullied by 'christians' who would torment her over her faith. is that how god expects christians to act? i can imagine there would of been uproar if christians were treated the way she was.

christianity=Hypocrisy, plain and simple.

Don't get me wrong—I'm an atheist as well. I'm as anti-God as you are, and I've been somewhat known as the GTP-Anti-Christ-extremist-diehard-science only crusader, but the way you presented yourself seemed like something out of a book by Nietzsche or LeVay. I was just pulling your leg a little and setting you up for a better debate. :sly:

As long as you're admitting to be Anti-God, have you honestly considered Satanism—with your own twist of course.

In a summed up manner, Satanism involves 0 god, and 0 Satan. It has 0 entity to worship. While it revolves somewhat around your own benefit, it revolves more around "If they annoy you, smack them" sort of philosophy, and don't worry, it's not as extreme as Nietzsche. Now don't get turned off yet—you can have some fun with this.

As an Anti-God Christian, you abide by the basic 10 commandments and try to avoid the 7 deadly sins, right? Well good. Because you can do all that whilst being a Satanist. Since you don't take Chrsitianity very seriously, and are already a borederline Satanist, I think you can investigate Satanism and possibly be with a happyer religion. It involves self-restraint, basic principles and is, contrary to popular belief, not evil.

I'll let you do the research, because I know how much you don't like religion(s) shoved down your throat or stuck in your face. I'm simply presenting an option, I myself am not a Satanist, or anything for that matter in case you're wondering.
 
LOL. i dont believe in anything i cant see or touch or cant be proven scientifically. other than that, im just a regular guy. satan holds no more sway with me than jesus does.
 
skicrush
I lived there for two years, Jack. How about you? I watch and read the LOCAL news IN SPANISH, besides BBC stuff. I know peolpe that work at your "sweat shops." And I maintain my position. How about you? What kind of research have YOU done?

Trust me--it is all but impossible to starve down there. All you're proving is that you are COMPLETELY unwilling to admit when you're wrong. Typical journalist.


Who said they were starving? I said they were people who had converted to Christianity but had seen no benefits.
Child labour laws do not exist in all the countries of Central/South America and are often flouted in the ones that do. Many people live below the poverty line, have little or no access to medical help and live in substandard conditions.

Swift said that God hadn't failed people, the people had failed God. I was asking how they had failed God? They converted to whichever form of Christianity was thrust upon them (initially with a sword) so what benefits have they reaped? How have their lives improved? Has it stopped the exploitation or just made it easier?

By the way Swift, you still haven't responded to that (or other) questions....
 
JacktheHat
Who said they were starving? I said they were people who had converted to Christianity but had seen no benefits.
Child labour laws do not exist in all the countries of Central/South America and are often flouted in the ones that do. Many people live below the poverty line, have little or no access to medical help and live in substandard conditions.

Swift said that God hadn't failed people, the people had failed God. I was asking how they had failed God? They converted to whichever form of Christianity was thrust upon them (initially with a sword) so what benefits have they reaped? How have their lives improved? Has it stopped the exploitation or just made it easier?

By the way Swift, you still haven't responded to that (or other) questions....

You know what I like. You compare the quality of life of others to your own. You do realize that we live in some of the richest most prosperous countries in the world right? Compared to about 66% of the planet we're rich! So, what benefits haven't they seen. You show me in scripture where is says, "Free ride once you become a christrian"

I agree with Danoff, you need to get some perspective. I know that I kind of have tunnel vision when it comes to the things of God. However, all you ever say is people are exploited, so where is God? How about this...You're NOT exploited so there must be a God?
 
Swift
How about this...You're NOT exploited so there must be a God?

That seems to be your attitude.

I asked about people who need help, where is God for them?

Your reply? God hasn't failed peole, people have failed God.

My response? How have these people failed God?

Your reply? None as of yet.
 
JacktheHat
Who said they were starving? I said they were people who had converted to Christianity but had seen no benefits.
Child labour laws do not exist in all the countries of Central/South America and are often flouted in the ones that do. Many people live below the poverty line, have little or no access to medical help and live in substandard conditions.

Swift said that God hadn't failed people, the people had failed God. I was asking how they had failed God? They converted to whichever form of Christianity was thrust upon them (initially with a sword) so what benefits have they reaped? How have their lives improved? Has it stopped the exploitation or just made it easier?

By the way Swift, you still haven't responded to that (or other) questions....
Jack, I'm done with the religion debate. There are people exploited HERE--kidnappings, identity theft, abuse (by priests no less). South America is a pretty crappy example. They're in better shape than most of Eastern Europe, let alone Southeast Asia. You have a plethora of better examples out there. That is my point at the moment.

On top of that, look at the progress that has been made down there in the last half century. Why, you could almost argue that there IS a God based on how those people have been blessed recently!
 
JacktheHat
That seems to be your attitude.

I asked about people who need help, where is God for them?

Your reply? God hasn't failed peole, people have failed God.

My response? How have these people failed God?

Your reply? None as of yet.

As was pointed out before, it is our greed that has denied these people access to food and medical supplies. We are helping, but we could do soooo much more. God HAS provided, we just need to learn how to share.
 
skicrush
Jack, I'm done with the religion debate. There are people exploited HERE--kidnappings, identity theft, abuse (by priests no less). South America is a pretty crappy example. They're in better shape than most of Eastern Europe, let alone Southeast Asia. You have a plethora of better examples out there. That is my point at the moment.

On top of that, look at the progress that has been made down there in the last half century. Why, you could almost argue that there IS a God based on how those people have been blessed recently!


I cited Africa and Central/South America because the people there were converted to Christianity.

As for progress, it's a matter of opinion. Ask the Bolivians who are currently protesting if they're pleased with whats happened in the last fifty years.
How about the Argentines? Are they pleased with what happened to their economy? Are Peruvians happy? Chilians? How about Columbians? Brazilians, I'm sure the people living in favellas aren't best pleased with the situation.
 
JacktheHat
I cited Africa and Central/South America because the people there were converted to Christianity.

As for progress, it's a matter of opinion. Ask the Bolivians who are currently protesting if they're pleased with whats happened in the last fifty years.
How about the Argentines? Are they pleased with what happened to their economy? Are Peruvians happy? Chilians? How about Columbians? Brazilians, I'm sure the people living in favellas aren't best pleased with the situation.
You know what? You're right. They don't have the same standard of living as we do. Do they care? No--they are happy with what they have, and THEY can see God's blessings in their lives. AND, they can go to the city any time they want and make a better living. You'd be surprised how many of them would rather stay where they are farming than go the city to make more money. Their next-door neighbor might commute--the busses are cheap. But that's the point--they are free enough to choose, and most are happy (and feel blessed) with the choices they've made. It is a far cry from the situation in Africa.
 
JacktheHat
That seems to be your attitude.

I asked about people who need help, where is God for them?

Your reply? God hasn't failed peole, people have failed God.

My response? How have these people failed God?

Your reply? None as of yet.

Look in the old testament. How many times did the hebrews fail God? Honestly, I lost count after the book of judges. They failed him, went into captivity, persecutition or your favorite word exploitation. When they came to there senses God brought them out. They did this over and over.

Were they still God's chosen people? Yep! but did they go through hard times like 400 years of slavery in Egypt? Yep!

So, to answer your question. People fail God in a multitude of ways. I know I've failed him before. As every believer has:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Everyone has failed God at some point. I can't tell you, "Well those people in Africa that are suffering failed God like this...." However, I can tell you that there are a lot of war torn nathions over there and one of the members of my church is from Liberia. That country recently came out of yet another civil war. But her family wasn't hurt or persecuited even though fighting was taking place right in their town. So the suffering can very likely be through no fault of their own.

So again, God doesn't fail people. People, like myself, fail God.
 
skicrush
You know what? You're right. They don't have the same standard of living as we do. Do they care? No--they are happy with what they have, and THEY can see God's blessings in their lives. AND, they can go to the city any time they want and make a better living. You'd be surprised how many of them would rather stay where they are farming than go the city to make more money. Their next-door neighbor might commute--the busses are cheap. But that's the point--they are free enough to choose, and most are happy (and feel blessed) with the choices they've made. It is a far cry from the situation in Africa.

Have you actually read my posts?

I compared to Central/South America to Africa because they were both converted to Christianity and are both exploited.

As for your belief that these people are happy? You're obviously not aware of current world events.

America - The Official Thread - post 282

Check the links I provided in this post.
 
JacktheHat
Have you actually read my posts?

I compared to Central/South America to Africa because they were both converted to Christianity and are both exploited.

As for your belief that these people are happy? You're obviously not aware of current world events.

America - The Official Thread - post 282

Check the links I provided in this post.
Your links are broken or require an account. Did you catch any of the last presidential election in the states? About 49% of us weren't happy. Did I say things were perfect? No, just that South/Central America is a BAD example of "oppressed" people. They can demonstrate, protest, and their gov'ts can listen and actually take action. Does that happen in Africa? Nope. Stick to Africa. What's wrong with Southeast Asia? They believe in God, or Allah. Just different names.
 
skicrush
Your links are broken or require an account. Did you catch any of the last presidential election in the states? About 49% of us weren't happy. Did I say things were perfect? No, just that South/Central America is a BAD example of "oppressed" people. They can demonstrate, protest, and their gov'ts can listen and actually take action. Does that happen in Africa? Nope. Stick to Africa. What's wrong with Southeast Asia? They believe in God, or Allah. Just different names.

Links 1,3 and 4 work fine although number 2 is a little slow. None are broken or require an account.
 
2 times out, and 3 is irrelavent to my argument here. Man, and I thought it was pointless arguing RELIGION with you. You won't even take solid facts at face value, let alone something like religion! South America and Africa are in two different worlds of hurt. People in the americas are protesting for more advanced rights. People in Africa are starving to death. They dont' even have the resources to protest, and their gov'ts can't do anything about it anyway. Are you blind? Your own stories verify what I'm saying. How dense are you?
 
JacktheHat, if all journalists are like you, then no wonder the media these days is in such a sorry state. You've the persistence of a bull, with the brain and reasoning of a gnat. I would normally be on your side (I'm non religious, scientific rationalist), however your argumentative stance is just woeful.
 
skicrush
You know what? You're right. They don't have the same standard of living as we do. Do they care? No--they are happy with what they have, and THEY can see God's blessings in their lives. AND, they can go to the city any time they want and make a better living.

ski, this is naivety, bordering on sheer ignorance... not to mention condescending. So God blesses you, so you should be happy with your poverty-ridden squalor?

And, they can go to the city and 'get a job'...? get a grip... what do you think the shanty towns in Brazil are full of... people who enjoy the scenery? They move to the city, because the rural economies are non-existant, only to find they have no prospects in the city either... no education, no money, and plenty of people who wish to exploit cheap labour...

I strongly disagree with the stance that poor people are 'happy with what they've got', and if they weren't, there is always an easy way out, like getting a job... with or without the belief that God is looking out for you, it doesn't matter one jot when your children are starving and dying... that's why so many poor people of sound mind take the most hideous jobs (like Chinese cockle-pickers in the UK, who are ruthlessly exploited by gangmasters), to earn some sort of living, when none other is available...

Religion can play an important role in the lives of the poverty-stricken - by providing support and guidance - but that's about it.
 
Touring Mars
ski, this is naivety, bordering on sheer ignorance... not to mention condescending. So God blesses you, so you should be happy with your poverty-ridden squalor?

And, they can go to the city and 'get a job'...? get a grip... what do you think the shanty towns in Brazil are full of... people who enjoy the scenery? They move to the city, because the rural economies are non-existant, only to find they have no prospects in the city either... no education, no money, and plenty of people who wish to exploit cheap labour...

I strongly disagree with the stance that poor people are 'happy with what they've got', and if they weren't, there is always an easy way out, like getting a job... with or without the belief that God is looking out for you, it doesn't matter one jot when your children are starving and dying... that's why so many poor people of sound mind take the most hideous jobs (like Chinese cockle-pickers in the UK, who are ruthlessly exploited by gangmasters), to earn some sort of living, when none other is available...

Religion can play an important role in the lives of the poverty-stricken - by providing support and guidance - but that's about it.
None of you guys are listening. No wonder the "religion" debate is going nowhere. PEOPLE DO NOT STARVE IN SOUTH AMERICA. Do they have hard times? Do they take crappy jobs? Yeah, but (as you've just illustrated) SO DO PEOPLE IN THE UK AND IN AMERICA. South America is in a completely different situation than that of most African nations.

If you want to argue that God does not exist because I have a crappy job and I'm Christian, then fine. But to use blanket statements like the ones you two are employing is just assinine. I'll say it again. Most American countries are in no worse shape than most Eastern European countries. You want to argue about Bolivia? Check out the Ukraine's recent presidential election. It may be convoluted, but it is not anarchy like is often the case in Africa.
 
skicrush and James2097,

We do not support or condone personal attacks on member’s intelligence or character defects. Please choose a different way to get your point across without personal attacks.

Thanks.
 
skicrush
None of you guys are listening. No wonder the "religion" debate is going nowhere. PEOPLE DO NOT STARVE IN SOUTH AMERICA. Do they have hard times? Do they take crappy jobs? Yeah, but (as you've just illustrated) SO DO PEOPLE IN THE UK AND IN AMERICA. South America is in a completely different situation than that of most African nations.

So you are specifically talking about South America..? I wasn't... as a general point, I don't believe that people who live in poverty are happy... and I reject the fact that people who live in poverty ANYWHERE have much power or influence to change their situations, simply by getting a job...
 
skicrush
None of you guys are listening. No wonder the "religion" debate is going nowhere. PEOPLE DO NOT STARVE IN SOUTH AMERICA.

Oh dear.

Check this out (PDF file). You may find it enlightening.


"Central America and the Caribbean
In the Western Hemisphere, 2002 saw hunger hotspots flare in Central America and the Caribbean. Most of Central America suffered from a food crisis produced by a deadly combination of drought and a decline in worldwide coffee prices that had a deleterious impact on the coffee-exporting farmers of the region. According to the World Bank, some 600,000 coffee labor jobs have been lost in the past two years in Central America. Reduced income is contributing as much to food insecurity as the drought. Media focus on the war against terror and the impending war in Iraq has kept most people in the United States from learning about the severe food shortages among neighboring countries.

Two hurricanes in September and October 2002 battered western Cuba, forcing more than 600,000 people from their homes. While the United States provides some humanitarian relief to Cuba during natural disasters, it has maintained a trade embargo since the 1960s because it opposes President Fidel Castro’s policies. Haiti remains the most intense hunger hotspot in the Western Hemisphere. Ninety-five percent of the 9 million Haitians are desperately poor, and their plight has not improved in the decade since they were liberated from military dictatorship. Most Haitians (70 percent) work in agriculture, and the prices and export sales of Haiti’s main crops, such as coffee, sisal and cocoa, have plunged. Soil degradation also constrains agricultural production.

South America
When the U.S. economy is strong, South America’s economies prosper from an increased demand for their exports. But the past two years have seen slow U.S. growth, and South America has seen exports decline. Low prices for commodities, such as sugar, coffee, cocoa and copper, have contributed to low incomes and job loss in the region. About one-third of the people in South America earn less than $2 per day. The hunger hotspots in South America are in northeast Brazil, mountainous regions of Bolivia and Peru, and war-torn Colombia, and among indigenous populations scattered throughout the continent. In 2002 hunger also emerged in the relatively developed country of Argentina. Fiscal mismanagement, corruption and the near total collapse of the economy in December 2001 triggered increased food insecurity. A 40-year war in Colombia has displaced more than 2 million people, causing mass migration to urban areas. Colombia is the main exporter of coca consumed as cocaine in the United States and Europe, but conflict over whether the United States should help control its production has intensified. The 2002 election of President Alvaro Uribe Perez promises to escalate the conflict further, as the United States increases its role in assisting government orces to destroy coca crops and fight the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia. Aerial spraying of crops increased in 2002, not only killing vast numbers of coca plants, but also poisoning the soil and surface water, thereby posing a major health risk to children. Poor farmers plant coca because it provides the highest return for them as they strive to feed their families. Crop substitution programs are not in place, and most of the affected farmers are without income for the coming year and will experience hunger in 2003.

Indigenous peoples are scattered in rural villages and mountainous zones throughout South America. Providing them with land rights, agricultural assistance, and basic health and education services could reduce their high rates of hunger and disease. Brazil elected Luiz Inacio da Silva as president in October 2002. He is promising to reduce hunger in the country. Brazil is characterized by a wide gap between income groups. In the poor northeast region of Brazil, some 12 million people face hunger."
 
skicrush
2 times out, and 3 is irrelavent to my argument here. Man, and I thought it was pointless arguing RELIGION with you. You won't even take solid facts at face value, let alone something like religion! South America and Africa are in two different worlds of hurt. People in the americas are protesting for more advanced rights. People in Africa are starving to death. They dont' even have the resources to protest, and their gov'ts can't do anything about it anyway. Are you blind? Your own stories verify what I'm saying. How dense are you?
Sorry to quote myself, but yes, I am talking about South America. They are in a completely different situation than Africa. They have the power to change their lives. People in Africa don't. Using the americas as an example is just childish. Did you read about the union protests in Jack's links? THEY HAVE UNIONS! Do you think unions exist in more than a handful of African countries?

And I don't mind if you take offense at what I've said about them being happy. Would htey enjoy more? OF COURSE!! But are they happy for the most part? Yeah, they are. Touring, have you ever been to any of those places?

[edit] Thanks for making my point for me, Famine. Central and South America are located BELOW eastern Europe, not to mention they only devoted a little over half a page out of 8 PAGES to it. Yeah, they're REALLY suffering like the African nations.
 
skicrush
Sorry to quote myself, but yes, I am talking about South America. They are in a completely different situation than Africa. They have the power to change their lives. People in Africa don't. Using the americas as an example is just childish. Did you read about the union protests in Jack's links? THEY HAVE UNIONS! Do you think unions exist in more than a handful of African countries? .

I'm more inclined to agree with JackTheHat...poverty is rife in South America, and I don't believe too many people are happy about it either...but you seem to suggest that poverty in South America is somehow different to that elsewhere... poverty is poverty, regardless... the poor in South America are as happy as the poor in Africa, or anywhere else... geography, and even politics, are irrelevant. The common traits are easy to see... they share a powerlessness to do anything about it. It is the responsibility of rich nations to help by writing off crippling debts, or bringing pressure to bear on the regimes that keep people poor through war and political unrest etc... what God has to do with it is your own opinion, but I certainly don't see much evidence that religion or even God himself, are doing very much to help.

skicrush
I don't mind if you take offense at what I've said about them being happy. Would htey enjoy more? OF COURSE!! But are they happy for the most part? Yeah, they are. Touring, have you ever been to any of those places?

That's very big of you... whether or not I've been to these places is totally irrelevant... but for the record, I've lived with people from Venezuala (Caracas), Mexico (Mexico City) and French Guyana, and know or worked with people from the Sudan, Russia, Brazil and many more countries where poverty is rife. There is poverty here in the east end of London (where I live)... and the face of poverty, whether you stare at it yourself or not, is one that doesn't exactly scream 'hey, you know what, I'm really happy with everything I've got'...
 
skicrush
[edit] Thanks for making my point for me, Famine. Central and South America are located BELOW eastern Europe, not to mention they only devoted a little over half a page out of 8 PAGES to it. Yeah, they're REALLY suffering like the African nations.

Hold up there, Roy Rogers.

You said:


skicrush
PEOPLE DO NOT STARVE IN SOUTH AMERICA.

THEY say:

World Hunger Report
Haiti remains the most intense hunger hotspot in the Western Hemisphere. Ninety-five percent of the 9 million Haitians are desperately poor

In the poor northeast region of Brazil, some 12 million people face hunger

That's hardly "PEOPLE DO NOT STARVE IN SOUTH AMERICA" is it? It's more like "A hell of a lot of people starve in South America". Whether or not it's "like" Africa ("Hey, our famine is worse than yours! We rule!") is irrelevant. You said:

skicrush
PEOPLE DO NOT STARVE IN SOUTH AMERICA.

And proceeded to berate anyone who suggested otherwise - even stooping to ad hominem.

People DO starve in South America. This much is readily apparent.
 
I never suggested that poverty didn't exist on this side of the pond. But to suggest that someone living in London's east end is in the same boat as someone living in the Sudan or Somalia is rediculous--there are orders of magnitude difference in their respective situations. More than that, to suggest that South America is in the same situation as Africa is not far from throwing London in, too. If you want to use Haiti or Cuba as an example, fine. Specific indigenous species? GREAT! But, if you're going to just chuck all of South America in the same mold as Africa, you might as well throw in New York, London, Madrid, and Paris.

[edit] Famine, if you were'nt coming in on this a day late, you'd have seen what the point was YESTERDAY! Moreover, I can admit when I'm wrong!!! I COMPLETELY OVERLOOKED HAITI! You are right--they are in horrible shape. But one tiny country hardly merits such overgeneralisation (I spelled that for you brits)
 
I've been "in on this" since the start. I saw what the point was yesterday. But you clearly said:

skicrush
PEOPLE DO NOT STARVE IN SOUTH AMERICA

When, in fact, they do. And 12 million in Brazil alone is a HELL of a lot of people. And, one might say, comparable with the 11 million "facing food shortages" in the Horn of Africa, referenced earlier by Touring Mars.
 
Back