GTP!! Where have we gone wrong? Can we fix it?

  • Thread starter Small_Fryz
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Small_Fryz
...mods saying nothing have changed are either scared to post their thoughts or are also blind.
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...and in both cases they are morons, if I understand your point.
I'm not saying that nothing has changed and everything is perfect in a perfect world. I do agree with your description of how it's going on here, Dion. It's true that mods reaction is sometimes unpredictable : certain thread will be fine for some of them but not for others who will lock it. It's true that many members are too quick to start arguing when they could just take it easy.

I'm saying that I saw no change because I spent my 2 years here in the WRS forum, and I've scarcely been to other forums. This is for instance my first visit to the Rumble Strip, and I've never been to the Test Forum or the Conversation forum. So no, I don't remember a time when members were much more friendly with each other, or when mods had a wonderfully consistent response.
But I'm not saying that we shouldn't head towards such a situation, on the contrary.

Congrats for the Quality posts btw :cheers:
 
There is no point at stopping Moderator recruitments. Enough Moderators leave us on a regular basis as it is, and after that occurs, we need assistance from another decent member. When the time is right to induct another Moderator, we will all discuss the matter amongst ourselves, and ultimately Jordan will make the final decision on the best person for the job.

If we done it your way, we would end up with about 7 or 8 remaining Moderators before long.
 
Niels
WHAT IF WE (GTPlanet) WOULD SAY that recruitment stopped for moderators?
We will just go on with these mods and no one will become mod anymore.​
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In short, that idea will not work in the face of a constantly growing GTPlanet.

If that were the case when I joined, there'd be three mods remaining at this point: Jordan, msinblu, and Talentless. The last two rarely post here at GTP anymore, to futher that example. A few other members that have been here longer than I have have been promoted to mods/admins along the way, as well as several that joined shortly after I did.

GTPlanet members and mods leave, or spend less time here, so you need to have a ready staff to suit the influx of members that appear here. As Der Alta said, you have many members that have been banned and warned too many times and still show their rude faces here, albeit with a different name.

Click on some posts from Banned members once in a while, you'll see why the mod staff needs to be as "numerous" as it is.

icemanshooter23
Does anyone else think we need to bring something like the Test Forum back again? I miss the times when we could fool around and have a little fun. I think now that it's gone people tend to bring offtopic stuff into other forums.
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The Test Forum had its moments, when you just knew a topic didn't have merit to garner a whole thread in the Rumble Strip. It was also a place to mess around a little with the controls of posting in an internet forum. However, some threads existed solely for the purpose of (slow) chatting; the bandwidth's paid for on Jordan's dime, and it contributed little to any other members than those chatting with one another.

GTPlanet is supposed to be a reference and discussion tool for particular topics. When there's no topic, or cannot stay on topic, the thread likely should be ended after careful review.

I do miss the Test Forum, occasionally the discussions could be more interesting than the Rumble Strip. But it changed from Test Forum into the TeSt FoRuM after a while, and had to be killed off because of a handful of members abusing it and each other.

Jordan once tried a chatroom, it lasted about as long as a good lap at the Nürburgring. He also had the Shoutbox, it too, was over-used by a small handful of users. The Conversation Forum lasted much longer than it should have, as it just two-sided conversation between users, and had nothing of any usefulness to any other members.

In short, GTP is everything you want it to be, as long as you follow the rules. Some of you long-time members remember this statement: "Think before you post." Yeah, it still works; it also works in real-life, too.

Don't forget this: Unfortunately, only 3280 people have read it so far. That's well short of the 80,000 members we have here today.

Engage the brain before moving your fingers.
 
I think it's only gone "downhill" due to the removal of the convo forum. It depends what you mean by downhill, though. Downhill in active members? Yes. Downhill in quality of posts? No. The convo forum was a major forum in terms of active members, and removing it has just caused most of the people who would normally visit there to not visit at all. I'm not sure about everyone else, but if the rest of GTP was quiet, i'd just go there and wait until something happened. That doesn't happen anymore, and people just leave if they have nothing to do.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying bring it back, but it is the cause of the recent unactive-ness.
 
In my opinion if anything closing the convo forum was a good thing. Also in my opinion a lot of the members who slow chatted in other threads and continually talked off topic also particepated in the convo thread. Now that it has gone, so have they.
 
I haven't been here long enough to know how good the "good 'ol days" were like a few years back, but I HAVE seen some change in just a year. I remember when I first joined, I made a thread in the GT3 forum that had been talked about to death over and over, but the thread still didn't get locked. Make a thread like that today, it WILL get locked.

Personally, I think it's the increase of new members ever since the release of GT4, and the mods have to work harder to keep all the active ones under control. Same goes for the rest of the site, new members seem to come and everyone's immaturity level seems to have decreased, thus the mods have to work harder and more threads having to get locked to keep everything under control.

Members seem to be getting younger and younger too, so that doesn't help the maturity of GTP. I think it is right then that threads like "Big Girl" get locked, because, simply, it was getting out of control and was going to start violating the AUP about sexual content. Also, a parent looking at what their 12 year old is reading is going to put them off and stop them from viewing GTP eventualy. The talk in that thread was getting worse and more "adult", so the thread had to be put down for the sake's of them younger members. To be honest, because of the age of GTP members, I don't think threads like that will ever be allowed ever again, unless we keep very sensible, or suddenly younger members stop joining, but in this time and world, will not happen I'm afraid.

And about something like the Convo forum coming back. Well, the members that only post on GTP because of the Convo forum will come back, and then post sometimes in threads around GTP off topic, lacking content or causing an argument. That's why it was closed in the first place. GTP doesn't need all this fuss, so it was closed to keep the rest of the forum a better place to post for us. Well, it HAS worked, the people who did this don't come here any more.

So, I think GTP is going in the right direction. People may like or dislike it, but in this way I think it will grow better and make GTP's purpose stand out more and seem more professional, even though it might not be as "fun".
 
Small_Fryz
In my opinion if anything closing the convo forum was a good thing. Also in my opinion a lot of the members who slow chatted in other threads and continually talked off topic also particepated in the convo thread. Now that it has gone, so have they.
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Yep, and those are the people who have left. I think we've only just realised how bigger % of the active members they were.
 
I think the conversation forum was a great opportunity for newer members to get to know the admins and mods a bit, and the older members. Thats something the convo thread COULD have done really well. But there was only a little group of people there just having fun.

So it could've been usefull. But the convo forum was a bit hard to find for new members anyway, just because the newer members only post in the GT4 section, they get to know GT4 but not the forums.
 
I felt the Convo Forum was unproductive.

Every time I looked in there, 30 more pages had been posted - and I view at 100 posts per page. Not having the time or inclination to read everything that had gone before I felt that there was no need for me to contribute at all. So I didn't.


I have to say that from my point of view, nothing has changed in the last 3-and-a-bit years. I still get treated exactly the same by almost everyone, except now people post "But watch out for Famine" in people's introduction threads. I get no trouble from the mods, but I don't give much trouble to the mods - if something is close to the bone, I'll ask Duke/Der Alta before I post it, or notify them that I have posted it, but I rarely feel that something which goes against the AUP/ToS is worth posting.

You must remember that the staff are also - and primarily - members, as Duke's 15,000th post thread served to remind us... He got busted by NocturnalPS for spamming in the HMRCWG thread, and then went on to give him stick for it! I count two of the mod staff amongst my closest "virtual" friends, and one of them makes it into the real-life "posse"... They're people, people.


What's worth investigating is how GTPlanet is viewed by other forums. One of the better "other" sites out there, and I won't name names because I enjoy that site too, views us as both undermoderated and a place where kids hang out... Far from the overmoderated fascist state some people perceive us as being (*cough* Wity *cough*).
 
Pratically the only change i have seen here is the closing of the convorsation forum. That alone is change in itself, so if something like that can happen in the time that i am here (currently about 3-4 months) then i shudder to think what has happened since this site opened.
 
Well, losing the convo forum was and is causing a big dip, unsurprisingly. It was a huge contributor to the site, post wise anyway. You can't remove a forum that was pumping out 122,000 posts and not expect a slow area.

I don't think we should be talking about bringing it back, as there was a very credible reason to remove it. What we should be doing is keeping GTP active. The convo forum was just one big MSN going about 10x slower. That's not what GTP is about.

As for restoring it back to it's former days, i was taking a look back at some older threads the other day, and most of them are rather ... stupid. I'm not sure about everyone else, but i don't want to see moronic crap everywhere.
 
Jon.
As for restoring it back to it's former days, i was taking a look back at some older threads the other day, and most of them are rather ... stupid. I'm not sure about everyone else, but i don't want to see moronic crap everywhere.
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Pos rep that man!

I personally couldn't agree more, I am very thankful that GTP has zealous mods, GTP is not an excuse to shout out to "UR K1££3|2 AZN KR3VV" it serves a much more important role then that. I see enough stupidity in my daily life without needing to resort to an online community where people with a collective IQ of around 10 are allowed to run rampant.

But then again, I never witnessed GTP in its prime.
 
Dear fellow GTP members,

Most of my thoughts on this subject have been brought up by others, so I won't waste everybodys time repeating them all. However, this is not a phenomenom unique to GTP - I've seen it happening at many sites that I frequent, especially those relating to PC/PS2 games. The larger the site, the more likely it seems to happen. I have not seen one site that has been able to successfully handle the problems we are starting to see here - and believe me when I say this is only the beginning.

Some sites let it slide, resulting in a "dumbing down" of the content and the eventual loss of the more experienced, not necessarily older, members. Others cracked down on all unruly behaviour like a tonne of bricks which sucked all the fun out of the site. One site, sufferring from multiple repeat posting of newbie questions, FAQed everthing it could think of, leaving nobody with any reason to post anything again.

Online communities mirror real-life communities - the larger they get, the harder it is to get them to work. When I grew up I knew all my neighbours, then I moved to a bigger city and I now know only one. My parents always complain that I don't have the manners that they learnt - and I say the same about most of the people I meet that are younger than myself. People get away with crimes if they can keep annonymous - the internet is annonimity in itself etc..

Hopefully this site will sort itself out to something resembling the good ol' days. There's still many people who know what to let go and when to speak up, as evident by this thread. As I told my boss on the first day of my job, "I don't expect everybody to like me, or agree with me, or even remember my name. I only hope that people will give me the respect that I earn."

Regards,
Brett
 
Famine
I felt the Convo Forum was unproductive.
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I believe that was the beuty of the conversation forum. It was a great place to pass the time with people who were actually interesting to talk with. Now with the convo forum gone, new members wont have the opportunity to get to know some of the coolest people ever. I can see what you are talking about with the overabundance of posting though.

Jon.
I think it's only gone "downhill" due to the removal of the convo forum. It depends what you mean by downhill, though. Downhill in active members? Yes. Downhill in quality of posts? No. The convo forum was a major forum in terms of active members, and removing it has just caused most of the people who would normally visit there to not visit at all. I'm not sure about everyone else, but if the rest of GTP was quiet, i'd just go there and wait until something happened. That doesn't happen anymore, and people just leave if they have nothing to do.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying bring it back, but it is the cause of the recent unactive-ness.
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I agree. I dont browse this forum much anymore because of the lack of the conversation forum. There's just nothing else to do on the site, so most of the time I just leave because new posts are very infrequent now. Its really sad to see how much less fun it is to browse this site now.
 
Then maybe this site wasn't for you after all if your only main reason was the Convo. Forum.

And I doubt we'd see any new members. We only got 5 at the most who just left random posts and maybe 2-6 who started to post only in there mostly.

The closing of it did get rid of a few random-as-hell people, and it did push away some older members, but as I said, perhaps this site isn't for them.
 
With regards to the convo forum, it was 99% rubbish posted in there, that was what led to the convo forum being locked. As a place to just post something that was on your mind, or that happened in your day ect it was perfect. And it was used for things like that, but only 1 in 100 posts would have not counted as spam and a waste of bandwidth. Ultimately, the convo forum was too active for something that provided so little for the site.

As for Famines last post, that's 100% spot on. Everyone will find things wrong with this site if you look, and in some cases if you don't. But compared to how much is wrong with how other sites are run, this is pretty damn good.

Even Jordan's easy to communicate with, though I don't know him as a member myself I've seen many of his posts, you don't have to view him as the boss and I'm sure he doesn't want you to unless ofcourse a serious issue arrises that needs to be rectified. When he comes on here to post he's another member, and I can assure anyon that needs it, he's rather the opposite to a nazi dictator, I've seen him respond to insults and bad posts.
 
I've been here for nearly three and a half years, so I can definately see the change in how things are being run around here, even if my activity is dismal. However, I agree with all of these changes completely, and most of that comes from my own experiences administrating a board that is going through (relatively) large size/member type changes.

What I'm getting at is the fact that as communities become much larger and more complex, they change. GTPlanet's complexity floors me, for lack of a better term, and I guess accepting this change due to complexity will either make or break a member's stay.

I say, 'keep up the good work.'
 
Der Alta
What really irks me, is that I've been a member about as much time as MistaX has, and I have no clue who he is. I've never had the time to drop him a PM and introduce myself, nor has he. :(
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And I still haven't gotten a PM :(
 
Famine
Come off it.

You know that if that were true, your post would no longer exist.
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You're misunderstanding the concept of this thread and what I posted. I was judging the community from a third persepctive. You have to agree to a certain extent, how the term "I'm not going to name any members" has been used. People don't want to offend, because then they will get a moderator's warning. Then the people that are honnest get a warning from the staff for being just that.

I do know a lot about Soviet censorship and how to get around it, but to do that here would take far too much effort for such a simple internet discussion forum.

I've observed and lived in several small communities, ones where you can't just leave your computer or simply leave, you're there for good. The controlled population goes through a evolution as a general attitude, and the distance between the population and the authority increases. In nearly 3 years on GTP, this controlled population has followed the normal evolution of a restricted community.

But the problem is that GTP is only in the most important first phaze, the self-questioning and doubt. If things follow normality, it only goes downhill.

(BTW, sorry for the late reply, I've been out all weekend, and missed this important thread.)
 
*McLaren*
Then maybe this site wasn't for you after all if your only main reason was the Convo. Forum.

And I doubt we'd see any new members. We only got 5 at the most who just left random posts and maybe 2-6 who started to post only in there mostly.

The closing of it did get rid of a few random-as-hell people, and it did push away some older members, but as I said, perhaps this site isn't for them.
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Dude, I've been here for two and a half years. I was here long before the conversation forum, and if the site wasnt for me, I would have stopped browsing shortly after I joined.
 
Then why continue to keep saying that the Convo. Forum should be brought back?

You managed a year here without it, you can manage another.
 
*McLaren*
Then why continue to keep saying that the Convo. Forum should be brought back?

You managed a year here without it, you can manage another.
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It's like getting popcorn at a movie theater.

You don't need it to watch the movie, but it sure helps enhance the experience.
 
Du&#267
It's like getting popcorn at a movie theater.

You don't need it to watch the movie, but it sure helps enhance the experience.
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But in this case, the popcorn wasn't around for a long time when the movie started playing. ;)
 
Jimmy Enslashay
Guys, the Conversation Forum is not the issue at hand here. Oh, the irony of the continual wanderings off-topic in this thread...

Keep it on topic.
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Small_Fryz
Back in the day GTP was a lot less strict, certain threads could be posted and they would stay open, where as now they would be locked.

It’s almost like they moderate to cause no arguments, not moderate when an argument has taken place.

This gives me the feeling that i can no longer post my mind about things in fear of offending someone or even *gasp* one of the 25? Mods/admins.
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Conversation forum was locked. So that IS part of this thread.





What I posted above is, that a new Gran Turismo imo could help to make things better here. Answer :

live4speed
No, then several thousand new members will join and throw us all back into chaos. IMO the release of GT4 is what really kick started this, that's when there was a huge influx of new members and the mod's had to start really working hard to keep things in order which resulted in mod approval for new threads and a tight watch on peoples posting. I can remember one thread with pictures of a few hundered cars in GT4 and there was something like 100 posts a minuet for the first hour or something stupid like that. You'd type a post and there'd be 10 posts submitted in the time it took to type it.
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I see where you are coming from and you are right to a certain degree. But let me explain what I think about it. Let's face it. Many of the TOP 500 posters are not in the GT4 forum anymore. Some of them don't even play GT4 anymore.

My impression is, that GTP consists of many subforums and therefor sub-communities. There are the Rumble Strip guys, the GT4 Photomode guys, the Opinion forum guys, the Enthusia guys, the Music guys and what not. Some are regulary in 10 of those subareas, some are only in 1 or 2 of them.

A few weeks ago I had a look at the top 50 posters. I think that I am here a lot, but some of those people who have 3000-10000 posts .... sorry, never seen before or maybe one time. Then I had a look at their last 100 posts and realized, that I just never go to the "Music" area etc, but that particular person seems to be nowhere else.

Imo THAT is our problem. We are a few thousand active members, but tbh I regulary meet about 50 or so... Are we one forum or a forum for many little groups ?

I am here for about 1 and half years, most of it as active poster, so I don't know the good old times. But I think at that time, there was a certain group of Gran Turismo lovers with Playstations and a certain love for cars.

I havn't touched Gran Turismo 4 for 10 months or so. And I know people around here who hardly play games anymore atm.
A Star Wars forum constists of Star Wars lovers.
A BMW forum consists of BMW lovers.
GTP ... well I think 95% of us "loved" the GT series or racing games in general. But who is playing a random GT game atm ? Many have evolved and found new hobbies or have families or different genres they like or other racing games. Those people are still here because they like the people.
So perhaps we just lack common interests. As a whole group.


A new fascinating Gran Turismo could help imo. First screens and interviews and facts and so on could make us a team again. Of course that is probably no real solution, but I think that a GT5 forum would be a place where all of us would meet and talk again. Sometimes that is just enough.
 
From my view, the people who notice the 'changes' at GTP the most are the people who have been here the longest, or, more significantly, got to know people more closely than they did before. The relationships between (and the behaviour of) long-term members (including moderators) has indeed changed - as is only natural when people interact over a long period of time. For me, the evolution of GTP is an inevitable consequence of people getting to know each other better the longer they choose to be here - I think it is a positive thing that changes do occur, even if that means that some changes do not suit everyone.

One consequence of having a well-established forum such as this is that inevitably the amount of contributors, both good and bad, goes up. Unfortunately, good contributors (quality posters) tend not to post much (because it takes alot more effort to make one quality post than to make one hundred useless ones), whereas bad contributors (spammers, flooders, people who deliberately start or propogate arguments etc.) can undo alot of good work very quickly. In my view, the perceived changes in GTP over the last year or so are something that we all have to deal with, be it as a moderator, or as a long-term, quality contributor. Change does, and indeed must happen - it's just a question of where we want those changes to lead us. I strongly believe that the 'signal-to-noise' ratio (of quality over dross) needs to be protected as a first priority, in order to give all members a site that they can enjoy and trust.
 
Max_DC
So perhaps we just lack common interests. As a whole group.
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You're missing the point. If GTP is indeed a micro-cosmos, then you're going to find many different people with different tastes.

I live in a big town of 400,000 people, and although I don't see them all everyday, I'm sure I won't have the same tastes as my neighbor, but the laws affect us all. So we are small groups that permeate to other groups and are all part of one big group: GTP.

I post in the Rumble Strip, the Photomode Comps in GT4, the Drift forum, the Music forum, site feedback and in general, all around; so you can't say I belong to a certain forum and therefore wouldn't be able to label me as a certain type of person. Like me there are a lot of members here. I still play GT4 (less than 65% completion), but you don't see me opening new threads asking questions about the game, because they've all been answered already. In fact, when someone (usually a new member) opens a thread asking a dumb question, I'll most likely point them in the right direction (save a fex exceptions).

Max_DC
I think that a GT5 forum would be a place where all of us would meet and talk again. Sometimes that is just enough.
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There's already one.

Max_DC
Conversation forum was locked. So that IS part of this thread
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but this thread is about finding ways to make GTP better. One way Jordan & Co. found to make GTP better was closing the conversation forum. Deal with it. But this thread's point is not to revive the convo forum or to complain as to why it was closed. I'd suggest you create a new thread about that and hope it doesn't get closed immediately.
 
Diego440
You're missing the point. If GTP is indeed a micro-cosmos, then you're going to find many different people with different tastes.

I live in a big town of 400,000 people, and although I don't see them all everyday, I'm sure I won't have the same tastes as my neighbor, but the laws affect us all. So we are small groups that permeate to other groups and are all part of one big group: GTP.
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Of course I understand that, and since GTP has thousands of members we also have thousands of different tastes etc. Tbh I like that diversity. That's why I'm still here. But it would be great if there is one thing most of us like. Why ?
Let's take your example. The city you live in 400 k inhabitans. Be honest, if 350 k of them would move to another city and 350 k new people take their jobs and come to your home town, well, then you probably wouldn't care, since you don't know them.

So we are indeed one part of GTP as you say, but what does that mean today? 9 months ago it meant Gran Turismo fans who also talk about other stuff. Today...well at least there is a decrease. My impression sometimes is, that we are not so much a part of a small group within GTP, but more small groups which share the same internet adress. Maybe that is a l exaggeration and more a personal issue of me.

I post in the Rumble Strip, the Photomode Comps in GT4, the Drift forum, the Music forum, site feedback and in general, all around; so you can't say I belong to a certain forum and therefore wouldn't be able to label me as a certain type of person. Like me there are a lot of members here. I still play GT4 (less than 65% completion), but you don't see me opening new threads asking questions about the game, because they've all been answered already. In fact, when someone (usually a new member) opens a thread asking a dumb question, I'll most likely point them in the right direction (save a fex exceptions).
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I post in the Rumble Strip, Opinions, PS2, Xbox, Xbox360, Gaming in General, cars in general and a few more every now and then.
Well you play GT4, but I wonder how many of the TOP 500 posters still do. 50% ? I don't say that GT5 is the ultimate solution, no way. But it could bring us together again,almost everybody would be in that forum.
There's already one.
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Of course there is, but there aren't really any news, are they ? There is a E3 trailer and many speculations. I talk about more concrete stuff. That time will come, but probably not before 2007.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but this thread is about finding ways to make GTP better. One way Jordan & Co. found to make GTP better was closing the conversation forum. Deal with it. But this thread's point is not to revive the convo forum or to complain as to why it was closed. I'd suggest you create a new thread about that and hope it doesn't get closed immediately.
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No, I can't correct you, you're right.
Hell, I'm not even a fan of the convo forum, I've been there like 2 min in my entire life. So I can't even really judge if there was a reason for closing it. My point is, that there were several people who liked it with all its faults and problems. So why closing it ?
nevertheless I can live with that decision and I think I can also live with the moderating style here. I don't think that I violate the rules here too often, and most of that rules are necessary. Absolutly necessary. Is GTP overmoderated ? Apart from maybe one or two exceptions : NO. I don't want spam, explicit sexual content or piracy around here and the moderators do a great job by keeping GTP clean.

So this thread - as you say - is about how we can make GTP "better". And what I say is that maybe there is nothing wrong with moderators etc. Maybe
we just have to survive the time until the PS3 and GT5 give us new subjects to talk about.And maybe it brings back a bit of family flair to GTP, because those little groups I talked about, come together again. Maybe I'm wrong, we'll see....
 
exigeracer
You're misunderstanding the concept of this thread and what I posted. I was judging the community from a third persepctive.
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Yes - you said it had "strict USSR-like censorship".

If that were true, you would not be allowed to make your comment in the first place - or at the very least it and any references to it would be removed as "subversive". Since you could make your comment - and did, AND followed it up - then it cannot be true.
 

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