GTP!! Where have we gone wrong? Can we fix it?

  • Thread starter Small_Fryz
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Someone sticky this thread, it's an absolute peach. Mind you, I've just sat and read and digested it all, and it took almost an hour :)

As a 4 year member in the summer, I can say yes, GTP has changed, but it hasn't gotten any worse. It is stricter than it used to be back in 2002, but whilst I might not agree with some moderating decisions, it still the best forum on the Internet, and I'd rather have a slightly-too-strict team of mods than a far-too-lax group. The mods do a great job, and aren't ever thanked enough for the work they do here - they get a lot of stick for something they do voluntarily.

If I went through this quoting everyone I agreed and disagreed with, I'd be here 'til Christmas, but I will say well done everyone for keeping it civil.
 
Respect to Fryz for starting this subject 👍 . I have noticed the same change. GTP has become so big, that less people know each other. With all the 'professors', things ain't becoming better either. When people don't know you, they sometimes HAVE to convince you they're right. I see people becoming more agressive and people unnessecary backing others they know up in discussions. All things I don't see or see less on other GT sites.

I am sort of active in the OLR section, but with the old friends that have left, some drivers having an attitude I don't like and the enormous amount of ranting that takes place, GTP ain't a site anymore that I visit each day...
 
For us to fix GTP, it'd have to be broken.

In all honesty, I agree with Small_Fryz. Hence why I clicked his red check. I'd love to see GTP like it was three years ago. There was a heirarchy of fast guys, learning guys and guys that didn't play. We all knew each other, and we all could drop a personal PM to each other.

My first post was about how I shunted cars off the track with the F1 and blasted by all the others as I rampaged around the track slaughtering the comp by multiple laps. A thread like that would get closed in a heartbeat today.

Here is a prime example: "In before the Lock."
Considering the members 2 years ago, we never saw those. Noone was likely to post one, we didn't have to think why. Now, it is the latest internet fad. Something we don't need or want here.

I feel that GTPlanet is teetering on a steep slope. If the staff cracks down any harder than we already are, many of the strong contributors will leave. We'll only have posters like this. If we relax and let the threads run wild, we end up with chaos, and the strong contributors leave, landing us in the same position. Neither answer is acceptable in my eyes. First scenario, is the better of the two. We keep the screws tightened, and less than bright posters become bored and leave town, at which point we can loosen up a bit.

Lets start with the first paragraph. Closing of threads which some would like to see stay open. The tall girl thread wasn't too bad. It was however beginning to denegrate down into something that was bad. We can reference back to the first scenario and see why that thread had to be closed. Unfortunately, we have to close threads that will degenerate, likely before their time, as it has a higher chance of getting worse than it is. Mainly due to the members thinking it is acceptable to post like that. We never would before because we all knew the difference.

BTW, there are 17 mods, three of which are leaving. There are only 3 admins. For a total of 17 staff members.

Second paragraph. Yes, GTPlanet.net evolved. It did so as a community, not as a direction by Jordan or the staff. The members themselves became different and forced change upon us all. I've noticed it and many others have as well. I'd personally love it the way it was when I joined. Some of what was tolerated way back when, cannot be tolerated now. Some of our members don't respect our community as much as other do, and it is because of them that we are in this situation. Hence, why I have very little patience for some new posters, and why I swing the hammer harder.

Third paragraph. Flame fests. These are not tolerated on GTP, and that is why it seems like the staff clamps down so tight. One flame fest will contribute to others. In the older days, people could argue and disagree and ***** about it, but ultimately they worked through it. Now, they decide that they'll piss all over the staircase, instead of talking to a staff member. Again, it was a small enough community that everyone really knew each other on a daily basis.

Last paragraph. The return to the older and respected days is a tough road, something that each of us has a hand in making happen. Something I'd like to see happen in a post haste manner. Each one of us has to offer the guidance to newer members and the discussion with older members. We can't accept half a step. You either help the person posting, or you keep your fingers off the keyboard.

Now, for my input and thoughts. The moderating staff is faced with a daunting task each day. The advertisers that flood in here, the continutally banned and rebanned members, the whining from people that simply can't use a READ THIS thread.

We have a handful of members who have been banned multiple times, asked forgiveness, been granted it, banned again, IP banned, and IP banned again, only to reappear, and taunt the staff. They contributed nothing to GTP other than aggravation. We have members that get banned, whine about it, and fire off a DDoS on GTP. We have members that are banned and reregister simply to spam the board. This is our task.

So overall, I think that the Staff has been doing their job as it is designated by the community, and we will continue to do that. It is very unfortunate and I am certainly looking forward to the end of it. There will be a time someday when we won't have as much noise on the forum, and there will be a bit of fun to be found.

What really irks me, is that I've been a member about as much time as MistaX has, and I have no clue who he is. I've never had the time to drop him a PM and introduce myself, nor has he. :(
 
ac.cobra427
wow. Editing the link into some disney crap sez it all. A Rolling Stones song sure is a real danger for our moral standards. Well done mods.👍
Third bullet point on the Acceptable Use Policy:
You will not use profanity in our forums, and will neither post with language or content that is obscene, sexually oriented, or sexually suggestive nor link to sites that contain such content.

AC, you and I are old enough to understand how much and how little a song means and impacts. Unfortunately, as I've noted in my post above, we have to follow this path.
 
Comprehensive post there Der Alta 👍, with regards to locking threads though, since this is pretty much the only way I think the moderating could be improved, though as I've said it's no big gripe for me I'd still like some input. At what point should a non-repeat thread be locked, say a couple of members go off topic, would you ask them to stop? Because otherwise perfectly okay threads have been locked for that. Say one member decides to post something insulting and another member responds likewise, do you delete the two posts along with a warning, or do you lock the thread? My only complaint would be from time to time, threads containing good info with a good discussion (I'm not talking about the tall girl thread, I coould see exactley where that was heading) that members are enjoying get locked because of only one or two members. I personally think a comment from the mods and depending on whats been posted perhaps a couple of deleted posts would be better. If I'm genuinly wrong on this and there are reasons I can't see then so be it, either way considering the number of threads creaated on the site, it's not that common an occurance. It's also inconsistent, some threads get locked for almost nothing, at least nothing I can see anyway, others contain some heavy verbal attacks and continue, ect.
 
Der Alta
Third bullet point on the Acceptable Use Policy:
You will not use profanity in our forums, and will neither post with language or content that is obscene, sexually oriented, or sexually suggestive nor link to sites that contain such content.

AC, you and I are old enough to understand how much and how little a song means and impacts. Unfortunately, as I've noted in my post above, we have to follow this path.

Come on man. Turn your tv onto MTV and you see much more sexual oriented clips than this song. Why does everybody want to be holier than the pope himself ? What exactly are you guys afraid off ? I don't get it.

Links to "shoot-em-up'' games and assorted violent crap are tolerated, but when it comes to a nipple, ohlala. Blasphemy.
 
You agreed to it when you joined up. If you think it should be looser discuss why, but regardless, yuo shouldn't actually post things that violate the AUP until/unless the admin decide you've made a good enough point and change the AUP.
 
So this would mean that we can't discuss any music or movie anymore ? Every movie or song nowadays is sexually biassed. EVERY SINGLE ONE !!!! e.g. bareback mountain, or that hump song by the black eyed peas.

It was a SONG i linked to, not a porn site for crying out loud.
 
No, it means you don't post or link to pictures, audio or video clips ect that violate the AUP. When it comes to actually posting, if your not sure, use common sense.
 
ac.cobra427
Come on man. Turn your tv onto MTV and you see much more sexual oriented clips than this song. Why does everybody want to be holier than the pope himself ? What exactly are you guys afraid off ? I don't get it.

Links to "shoot-em-up'' games and assorted violent crap are tolerated, but when it comes to a nipple, ohlala. Blasphemy.
Actually, I don't have cable. Didn't feel like wasting time watching TV. As for the clips, it takes 3 seconds on google to find porn. I could find it anywhere. But that's not the point. Jordan has stated his policy on this. Very clearly "Not on my site" and that is what we enforce and abide by.

I know of many other GT forums that can and do allow a much looser policy. They function well and, much like GTP of younger times, are very enjoyable. In an effort to keep this site a family friendly site, we follow the AUP.

This is very much what Small_Fryz was finding. We as a whole have to work towards a place where someone could post that song and we'll all be mature enough to know that the story goes Mick wrote it purposefully so it wouldn't get recorded and he'd skip out on having to fulfill his full contract with Sir Edward. But that's not likely to happen soon.

So we're on this path of everyone working together to return GTP to what it was years ago.
 
No, I just agree with them more often than not and appreciate their effort to keep this site as decent as it is. I do have my gripes from time to time like most members do.
 
I joined almost 2 years ago, but since I don't visit many other forums and I don't have much time to do anything else than taking care of the WRS, I didn't notice much changes. Yet several people told me that they had noticed changes.

I have not much to add to what has already been said, and that has been said much better than I would do, but there is one thing I'd like to point out.
IMO, more than the amount of members, the amount of new threads and posts accounts for the changes we're talking about. Here, on GTPlanet, roughly 8,500 new posts and 300 new threads are posted every week. With a staff of about 20 people, it means that they almost spend all their online time reviewing posts and threads, looking for the same advertisers / spammers / banned guys coming back. Day after day after day.
No wonder that in the end they easily issue warnings and bans.

That doesn't happen on other boards where it takes 6 months to have the same 8,500 new posts that are posted here in one single week. There, you can post a link to 'C**ks**ker blues' by the Rolling Stones without having it been removed ;)
It's just not the same scale, not the same audience, and therefore not the same rules.


And I thank Dion for having posted this thread, because discussing it is the best way to solve a problem. Keeping one's bitterness for oneself doesn't make things better in the end.
 
ac.cobra427
Come on man. Turn your tv onto MTV and you see much more sexual oriented clips than this song. Why does everybody want to be holier than the pope himself ? What exactly are you guys afraid off ? I don't get it.

Links to "shoot-em-up'' games and assorted violent crap are tolerated, but when it comes to a nipple, ohlala. Blasphemy.

Way I see it, some dude pays for this site. If he doesn't want people swearing on it or posting nippleshots on it, that's his call, not mine. I can tell him why I think he's wrong - if indeed I do - but ultimately it's his decision since it's his property, and it's your decision whether or not you want to abide by his rules for it. Trying to deliberately provoke him - or people he has appointed to check on the thousands of megabytes of information that passes through it - by sidestepping his rules is just not fair on him - or them.

Jordan's site, Jordan's rules. I can live with that.
 
Honestly I do see what you mean AC Cobra, but it's the rules and you will never win this by being against the rules. So just leave it as it is now m8;)

Like Famine said it's just a matter of accepting the rules. Just accept them and keep that stuff on MSN or something:)

Edit: I mean the vid DA;)
 
Niels
Honestly I do see what you mean AC Cobra, but it's the rules and you will never win this by being against the rules. So just leave it as it is now m8;)

Like Famine said it's just a matter of accepting the rules. Just accept them and keep that stuff on MSN or something:)
Posting the out of line stuff isn't the issue, Small_FRyz original post is asking "how do we return GTP to what it was a few years ago?"
 
Der Alta
What really irks me, is that I've been a member about as much time as MistaX has, and I have no clue who he is. I've never had the time to drop him a PM and introduce myself, nor has he. :(

I would put that down to the fact that you have a completely different posting style as John (MistaX) does, you didn't have to but I'm guessing it's a result of your position. I've been (through numerous accounts) a member of this site since August 2002, 8 months after you and 3 months after Duke and have never really gotten to know either of you - yet I get on with MistaX like a house on fire.

Now it saddens me that the moderating staff are so distant from the rest of the community. You may disagree (Sage and Dukes 'I got a new 'x' car' threads etcetc) but there is only really one moderator I get on with and it isn't even on GTP... Not to mention those who are no longer active (Boom, Josh).

It's like in your workplace for example. I love the fact that I can walk into my bosses office, give him **** and get **** back from him (being an apprentice I get it 10 fold :D) but when he needs to be a boss, he is.. That is what I think one of the numerous problems is, the staff are moderators first and friends second. Quite often I see mods being friends with only people they want, when they should be open to the whole community.

Now as has already been discussed, we can attribute this to the younger generation that has flooded the forum and it really does suck but such is life.

So there you go, my opinion. I'd like you or whoever else to take it in and think about but should you choose to ignore then I'm used to that :)

(Speaking of Duke - where are his thoughts on this? I'm eager to see)
 
You know what we all need ?

A new GRAN TURISMO

.... then everything will be fine again... news, first pics, interviews and what not. I think we are in a kind of psycholgical depression right now after the release of GT4... We just have to hold on guys ;)
 
No, then several thousand new members will join and throw us all back into chaos. IMO the release of GT4 is what really kick started this, that's when there was a huge influx of new members and the mod's had to start really working hard to keep things in order which resulted in mod approval for new threads and a tight watch on peoples posting. I can remember one thread with pictures of a few hundered cars in GT4 and there was something like 100 posts a minuet for the first hour or something stupid like that. You'd type a post and there'd be 10 posts submitted in the time it took to type it.
 
Im very impressed of the quality of posts that have been posted while i was sleeping.

AC, once GTP changes a bit and goes back to how it was, or at least becomes similar to that, you will find you will be able to post your song, You cant really blame the mods that much for not allowing it, you have to blame the stupid members who will most likely start posting immature about it.

Der Alta thankyou very much for reading my posts and replying to them in such a truthful manner 👍!, thats excatly what i was wanting, some dicussions from the mods/admins point of views. Members that say nothing has changed are simply blind and mods saying nothing have changed are either scared to post their thoughts or are also blind.

I also thank Pako and Jimmy for their contributions 👍

Like i said earlier once we are aware of what is wrong we can then go about fixing and changing it. I'm after solutions and ways to change GTP. If GTP continues on its current path, more and more older members will leave and only the new guys (who are none the wiser that GTP wasnt always like this) will be here and the problem will be beyond repair or at least extremely hard to fix.
 
hehe, that's a rather cynical view live4speed - and I totally agree :sly:. If the number of new members increases linearly, then the amount of locked threads and the work for the mods will increase exponentially [the way the forum currently operates anyhow]

But I don't think that's quite what the issue is here.


As many others have no doubt mentioned already, this place just isn't overly welcoming or inviting to new members. Go sort the member list by posts - there's 85K+ members here, but only about 1800 or so of us have graduated from our 'New Member' distinction.

Recently Swift, DR, and myself [oh, and Specialized to some extent] have been plotting out ways to help out new members a little more and get them involved in the drift forum (we've seen a huge increase in new members recently). And I think we've been somewhat successful so far. The amount of threads for Swift and daan to lock seems to have dropped considerably, and the conversation is slowly starting to pick up and get more interesting [...slowly].

If I can apply what I've seen happening in the Drift forum to the other sections of GTP [which may, I admit, be a bit of a a stretch], then I'd attribute the changed forum demeanor and decline in interesting topics to the long term intentions of newly registered members.

This isn't about to become a new member bash, quite the contrary. I think a larger effort should be made by the older forum members to make new members feel welcomed and a part of the community. If they are encouraged to participate in forum activities [GTPDC, WDPC, and the new Beginner Drift Competitions int he case of the drift forum], then it seems they are more likely to behave themselves here, and do there best to adhere to the rules and customs of the forum. They don't want to create a bad name for themselves if they're enjoying themselves and want to stick around for some time to come.

If, however, they post up a thread... you know, the kind of threads they post... and it is greeted only by SEARCH and the other kinds of things commonly associated with such threads [which I am guilty of posting in the past], then theres much less chance of the new member wanting to stick around for the long term. They won't respect the AUP and TOS because there's no consequences for them - they don't intend to spend large amounts of time here and have no intentions of contributing anything to the community, they just want their answers spoonfed to them so they can hurryup and leave.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

I mean, there's always gonna be exceptional cases where people just act like idiots because that is infact, what they are. But by and large I believe people's actions here are predetermined by how well they are recieved by the community. If you encourage new members to become active contributors here, then even as old member 'retire' from the forums, you'll have up-and-comers to fill their shoes.


edit:

Taurine
Now as has already been discussed, we can attribute this to the younger generation that has flooded the forum and it really does suck but such is life.

I can only agree with you to a certain extent. I don't think there's any reason that the younger generation can't post intelligently - most people have some level of education by the time they're 12 or 13. The problem is that people automatically typeset new members of that age demographic to all behave a certain way... so guess what you get?
As sappy as this entire post is coming off, you have to guide new members and set some sort of example or precedent for them. It's natural for them to get off to a rocky start, but it's not too tough to straighten people out. The thing is, if you demand nothing of them, you'll get nothing from them.

To serve as an example, slider-s15 is a new member on the drift forum. Watching his initial few posts was like seeing a plane-wreck in slo-mo... but it only took 1 locked thread and a few quick posts from other forum members to get this guy [and his friend/brother who was accessing GTP from the same IP] to totally change his tune and write an apology thread [which was subsequently locked :sly:] Now he's actively participating in the weekly drift photo competitions, and posting like a literate human being - punctuation and all.

As another example... HiyakuShiro: he started off posting the most broken english I've ever seen from a fellow 21yr old Canadian citizen - but, we set him straight. Now he's a large contributor in the drift forums, and he's paying for premium service.


All of this doesnt immediately address the issue of the types of thread content that gets locked [issue raised in the very first post] - but I think if the mass majority of those 1800 members I mentioned earlier can be kinda... 'reprogrammed' to behave more maturely then that behaviour will filter down to new members. I'd like to think the immature posts that show up in these locked threads will decrease in number [though, I know they'll never dissapear] and the problem will look after itself. But people still have to exercise a little common sense and consider the AUP when posting a new topic.

To simply suggest that mods immediately change the way such threads are treated with the way the forum currently operates is unreasonable and will only lead to more problems.

....that's my rant. Maybe I'm being a bit too optimistic, too much of an idealist.... but this is what I think.
 
Does anyone else think we need to bring something like the Test Forum back again? I miss the times when we could fool around and have a little fun. I think now that it's gone people tend to bring offtopic stuff into other forums.
 
I too, really miss the way this forum used to operate. Back two years ago, a member could just hang out and have fun here without being told to stop by a moderator, and an overbearing moderator wannabe. When i first became a member, this site was the most fun I have ever had on the internet. and it stayed that way up until last year. It was becoming harder and harder for me to enjoy my times browsing the forums. I agree with the stricter moderating with the younger aged members, but I beleive that a lot of the people have beome to concerned with the way their fellow members behave, and make it a objective to point out every little grammar error, how your post is stupid and irrevalent, all to make themselves seem smarter. It seems there are members that lurk on the site to only humiliate people in front of an audience. and that is the main source of my inactivity on this forum.. This forum's member's were soo much more laid back.. and a lot more fun. and I can only hope that they come back.

LOOK HERE!

My comment in an eggshell:

The people here are too obcessed with policing the forums, that is the moderators job, and it should be left to them. people who try and moderate, who are not a moderator put out an overbearing image that makes people not want to talk to them.

I also agree with Iceman, The test forum was awesome.
 
icemanshooter23
Does anyone else think we need to bring something like the Test Forum back again? I miss the times when we could fool around and have a little fun. I think now that it's gone people tend to bring offtopic stuff into other forums.

Wasn't the whole purpose of getting rid of that forum and part of the reason why the Convo. forum was closed?
To get rid of the Off-topicness in other threads?

Though the mods say it will hopefully cut down on the off-topicness, I think it did just the opposite.
Now with no place TO chat about off-topicness, it spread outward instead of reducing.

But there was more to it than that for it being closed and the admins had their reasons, I suppose.
 
Silverzone
I agree with the stricter moderating with the younger aged members, but I beleive that a lot of the people have beome to concerned with the way their fellow members behave, and make it a objective to point out every little grammar error, how your post is stupid and irrevalent, all to make themselves seem smarter. It seems there are members that lurk on the site to only humiliate people in front of an audience. and that is the main source of my inactivity on this forum.. This forum's member's were soo much more laid back.. and a lot more fun. and I can only hope that they come back.

LOOK HERE!

My comment in an eggshell:

The people here are too obcessed with policing the forums, that is the moderators job, and it should be left to them. people who try and moderate, who are not a moderator put out an overbearing image that makes people not want to talk to them.

I also agree with Iceman, The test forum was awesome.

EXACTLY!
I think this is one of the big reasons. I think mods themselves can act a bit more friendly towards everyone too, but I also think that there are just too many members out there that want to look good. And I think...how silly it might seem...half of those members do it for a moderator job:rolleyes:

This problem definatly excists in GTPlanet. You cant disagree with me.

Boundary Layer
*snap* (loooooong post)

The drift forums are very organized, however, the fun is gone. It just is, it might be very efficient now and members might learn drifting really fast now with the awsome stickies(they are:tup: ). But it almost seems like the stickies make the whole forum now, and then there are like 2 more interesting threads besides those stickies.

Now the reason of all these threads getting locked is that it would make a mess of the forums and that older members dont like to anwser every question over and over again.
:odd:
I dont believe it's annoying to help new members with the same problem over and over again at all.
I loved helping new members in the GT3 drift forums and really liked the way how I got helped there.
Thats gone, and not a bit, it's completely gone and I think the drift forums of GT4 just became too organized.

THE RESULT?:
After this policy was introduced in the drift forums, no one complained cause immediatly everyone saw their chance of redirecting new members, "earn respect" from the other members (wich they dont get from me btw) and maybe get nominated for the next moderator position.

WHAT IF WE (GTPlanet) WOULD SAY that recruitment stopped for moderators?
We will just go on with these mods and no one will become mod anymore.

Yeah I know, it suddenly sounds very dangerous to some people, after all those posts they spent on getting a reputation, and flaming noobs, everything is gone.
 

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