Israel and Lebanon

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danoff
Really? We can't blame the Lebanese government (a democracy -> people = government) for at least some of this?

The Lebanese government is responsible for not disarming Hezbollah, but it is not responsible for the attacks on Israel. There seems to be confusion between willingness and ability. Whilst the Lebanese government may of been unwilling to disarm Hezbollah, it does not mean that it would of been capable of doing so if it wanted to.
 
magburner
Those pictures you have posted may very well be what you say they are, but they can so easily be something else. Either way, children dressed as paramilitaries marching in Beirut, on "Jerusalem Day" does not mean that they are 'active' Hezbollah soldiers.

I didn't say they were.
 
magburner
The Lebanese government is responsible for not disarming Hezbollah, but it is not responsible for the attacks on Israel. There seems to be confusion between willingness and ability. Whilst the Lebanese government may of been unwilling to disarm Hezbollah, it does not mean that it would of been capable of doing so if it wanted to.

You're joking, right?

How can the government not be held responsible for what goes on inside it's borders? Especially when it effects another country?

Man, I'm starting to sound like a broken record here....:dopey:
 
Swift
You're joking, right?

How can the government not be held responsible for what goes on inside it's borders? Especially when it effects another country?

Man, I'm starting to sound like a broken record here....:dopey:

If the attacks where done with the full knowledge of the government then of course the government is responsible. Over the last few days, I have seen confusing/conflicting statements from the Lebanese government and the Leaders of Hezbollah. On one hand, you have the government pleading for a cease fire, on the other you have the terrorists claiming that they will continue to attack Israel.

From those statements its clear that the government does not have complete control of its borders, or all of its citizens. If the government was strong, and had the means to do so, then I would say the government was entirely to blame. George Bush has called the government in Lebanon a 'fragile democracy' that needs protecting. Fragile democracies don't exude as much power as strong democracies. If your looking for black and white anwers, the Lebanese government is wholly to blame.

---

EDIT: As Israel continues its war against terrorists, what do they decide to do? Have celibrations to commemoration a terrorist act they committed 60 years ago! British anger at terror celebration
 
magburner
As Israel continues its war against terrorists, what do they decide to do? Have celibrations to commemoration a terrorist act they committed 60 years ago! British anger at terror celebration


SOME of the Israelis. There are extremists on both sides, the difference is that Israel currently has a lid on extremists within its borders.

Here in the US we've got KKK, NeoNazis, Communists, etc. But we try to not let them kill people.
 
ledhed
The people who feel that it is a diproportionate response DO NOT live in Israel and are not the targets of missiles and rockets every day.
israelis and lebenese have a right to judge the response...those sitting in comfort of there room watching the little snippets of news and taliking heads on tv spouting opinions are NOT qualified .
But then, we wouldn't have anything to talk about. :D

Swift
How can the government not be held responsible for what goes on inside it's borders? Especially when it effects another country?
If you live in a country like the U.S., you'd think so. But in a country like Lebanon, I'm not so sure. I don't think it's as easy as "call the feds/national guard, surround the Hezbollah compound, we're going in!". I agree that Lebanese government should have taken care of the Hezbollah problem, but the Hezbollah seem bit too powerful for the Lebanese government. Hezbollah probably have enough firepower to topple the Lebanese government itself. I don't think Lebanon enjoys the same type of stability our countries do.



Famine
mideast_lebanon_israel_pris.jpg
Famine
Those pics are truly sickening, but they are BB guns right? First pic, I'm 50/50 on, but second one, you can even see the screw holes.

You can imagine how their young are brainwashed at an early age to hate Israel and Jews. Until their "programming" stop, you can forget about any chance for peace in Middle East. :indiff:
 
magburner
If the attacks where done with the full knowledge of the government then of course the government is responsible. Over the last few days, I have seen confusing/conflicting statements from the Lebanese government and the Leaders of Hezbollah. On one hand, you have the government pleading for a cease fire, on the other you have the terrorists claiming that they will continue to attack Israel.

From those statements its clear that the government does not have complete control of its borders, or all of its citizens. If the government was strong, and had the means to do so, then I would say the government was entirely to blame. George Bush has called the government in Lebanon a 'fragile democracy' that needs protecting. Fragile democracies don't exude as much power as strong democracies. If your looking for black and white anwers, the Lebanese government is wholly to blame.
Lebanon has told Israel for 10 years now that they are not responsible for Israel's security and it is not their problem. 10 years! If they had said they are trying or they are working on it and woudl appreciate help then I would be sympathetic. But refusal to help for all this time is ridiculous.

Then look at Hezbollah's weapons. They are Iraninan weapons. They even admit to it. They aren't being teleported in, they are being shipped in. Has Lebanon been doing any sort of customs inspections and stopping these shipments or did thousands of rockets slip under their nose? Or coudl it be since Hezbollah is part of tehg Lebanese government that they were allowed to go through, knowing full well what their use would be?

Saying that Lebanon is weak and unable only works if they even tried to stop Hezbollah and possibly asked for aid, but that isn't what they did. They took them in and made them part of the government.

Just because you might be unable to stop an unsavory activity it doesn't mean you just welcome them in. If that mentality were used in the US then Al Capone would have been the president and David Dukes would be in Congress (kind of like Robert Byrd, I guess).
 
I wonder how the Israelis intend to explain why they fired at UN positions in Southern Lebanon 31 times yesterday alone... this, to my eyes anyway, is a good example of the severe heavy-handedness of the Israeli onslaught. At some stage, Israel will have to make a call about just how far they want to go. As they already know, occupation is not an option. Destroying entire towns and villages and much of the essential infrastructure of the country will ultimately just create a totally destabilised country, that will probably become more of a threat to Israeli security than it was before. Already Lebanon has been hit so hard that the government of Lebanon can pretty much do nothing about Hezb'Allah now anyway, even if they wanted to... The point is, Israel will eventually have to stop, but with anything between 0.5-1 million people already displaced, hundreds of civilians dead and much of the south of the country already in ruins (with precious little signs of weakening Hezb'Allah), you have to ask yourself just when the Israelis will begin to consider that their actions are becoming counter-productive...
 
Famine
A-hahahaha... Priceless.

Okay, I'll explain further.

Where might I get such a picture? What would the origins of the picture be (who took it, from where would I source it)?

Where did I get THAT picture? What would the origins of that picture be (who took it, from where did I source it)?


According to the caption, which I quoted, these were Lebanese children, dressed as Hezb'Allah attending a march, in Beirut, on "Jerusalem Day". The image is credited to AP/Mahmoud Tawil.

I have a few more:
w3.jpg

(Reuters: Children dressed as Hizbollah guerrillas march at a parade to celebrate 'Jerusalem Day' in Beirut)

30127.jpg

(Ananova: No caption)


Now... I have no reason to doubt that these pictures are what they say they are. I also recognise that they aren't proof of anything - they look more like children dressed as Hezb'Allah, rather than children who ARE Hezb'Allah - but it has been reported in the past that Hezb'Allah have used children as human shields and suicide bombers, appallingly.


I'd also like you to remember, with your avatar and status, the current conflict started because:
1. Lebanon has not disbanded Hezb'Allah in south Lebanon in accordance with the Taif Agreement.
2. Hezb'Allah operated an illegal capture mission from Lebanon across the UN Blue Line into Israel and kidnapped two Israelis.
3. Hezb'Allah, using Lebanon as a base, mounted missile strikes against Israeli territory.

Israel have offered a ceasefire if Lebanon stop the strikes, give back their citizens and disband Hezb'Allah as they said they would 17 years ago but never bothered to make the effort to do - instead inviting them into government. Hezb'Allah reject all overtures at a ceasefire "on Zion's terms", despite the fact that IT started the present conflict.

Israel gave Lebanon warning that it would strike Hezb'Allah targets and to move its innocent citizens from harm's way. Hezb'Allah gave no such warnings and strikes AT Israel's innocent citizens.


Golda Meir was right about one thing...

“We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us”


Looks like it might be a while .



And while we all cry about poor Lebenon....and their ability to disarm hezbollah...or non ability.

The defense minister says He will have the Army fight alongside Hezbollah if Israel Invades South Lebenon to clean out the terrorist...

But .....didnt you say your "ARMY IS USELESS it cant disarm Hezbollah......BUT it can fight one of the strongest military forces in the world...but....umm...it cant take over South Lebenon and enforce its will on Hezbollah to protect Israel from rocket and missile fire...but it will face ..a full scale assault , it can prevent just by doing its job in the first place ???

And with this logic you expect sympathy ? you expect that anyone will believe Lebenon actually wants to disarm Hezbollah ? And that there is no support from the government for what hezbollah is doing or has done ?

sure any day now .

Go Israel ....I'm sending a check .
 
Touring Mars
I wonder how the Israelis intend to explain why they fired at UN positions in Southern Lebanon 31 times yesterday alone... this, to my eyes anyway, is a good example of the severe heavy-handedness of the Israeli onslaught. At some stage, Israel will have to make a call about just how far they want to go. As they already know, occupation is not an option. Destroying entire towns and villages and much of the essential infrastructure of the country will ultimately just create a totally destabilised country, that will probably become more of a threat to Israeli security than it was before. Already Lebanon has been hit so hard that the government of Lebanon can pretty much do nothing about Hezb'Allah now anyway, even if they wanted to... The point is, Israel will eventually have to stop, but with anything between 0.5-1 million people already displaced, hundreds of civilians dead and much of the south of the country already in ruins (with precious little signs of weakening Hezb'Allah), you have to ask yourself just when the Israelis will begin to consider that their actions are becoming counter-productive...


Maybe they waanted to wake them up. They do seem a bit useless , could be they were so hungover they were missing all the war stuff....you know they being peace keepers and all and suppose to monitor the border.



This is from 36 minutes ago...they said ONE SHELL hit an OP during fighting between Israel and Hezbollah...the " peace keepers" were not hurt they were in a bomb shelter being peacefull.

Associated Press
U.N. Post Hit in Israel-Hezbollah Fighting
By SAM F. GHATTAS , 07.21.2006, 09:10 AM



A U.N.-run observation post near the border was struck during fighting between Israel and Hezbollah militants on Friday, while Israel pushed ahead with airstrikes on Lebanon and warned people in the south to flee as it prepared for a likely ground invasion to set up a deep buffer zone.

The Israeli army said Hezbollah rockets hit the U.N. post near Zarit, just inside Israel, but a U.N. officer said it was an artillery shell fired by the Israeli Defense Force. The facility was severely damaged, but nobody was injured as the Ghanian troops manning the post were inside bomb shelters at the time of the strike, the U.N. official said.

Also Friday, more rockets were fired at the port city of Haifa, the first time in nearly 24 hours that Israel's third-largest city has been struck. Rescue officials initially said that 10 people were injured seriously but later lowered that figure to just three. Another 16 suffered from shock.

For a 10th day, Israeli warplanes battered south Lebanon, particularly a border region where Israeli soldiers and guerrillas fought pitched battles the evening before, followed by smaller clashes Friday.

A house in the nearby village of Aitaroun was flattened, with 10 people believed inside, but rescue workers could not reach it because of artillery shelling, security officials said.

Strikes also hit Lebanon's main road link to Syria with missiles, collapsing part of a 1.6 mile-long suspension bridge - Lebanon's longest - through the mountains. Strikes on the road near the Syrian border set on fire empty passenger buses returning from Damascus, and the drivers escaped, police said.

Two Apache attack helicopters collided in an accident northern Israel near the Lebanon border early Friday, killing one air force officer and injuring three others, two seriously, Israeli officials said. Al-Jazeera reported that four soldiers were killed in the crash, but did not give a source. The commander of Israel's air force appointed an inquiry team to determine the cause.

At least 335 people have been killed in Lebanon in the Israeli campaign, Health Minister Mohammed Jawad Khalife said at midday_ a rise of 29 over the past 24 hours.Thirty-four Israelis also have been killed, including the air force officer killed Friday and 18 soldiers.

Israel appears to have decided that a large-scale incursion across the border was the only way to push Hezbollah back after 10 days of the heaviest bombardment of Lebanon in 24 years failed to do so. But mounting civilian casualties and the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Lebanese could limit the amount of time Israel has to achieve its goals, as international tolerance for the bloodshed and destruction runs out.

Top Israeli officials met Thursday night to decide how big a force to send in, according to senior military officials. They said Israel won't stop its offensive until Hezbollah is forced behind the Litani River, 20 miles north of the border.

French Foreign Minister Philippe Douste-Blazy, meanwhile, said his country was dispatching urgent aid to Lebanon by air and sea and he called for safe passage.

His comments came a day after U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan warned of a humanitarian crisis in Lebanon and called for an immediate cease-fire, even as he admitted "serious obstacles" stand in the way of even easing the violence.

"We are setting up a humanitarian air and sea port," Douste-Blazy told reporters during a visit to Beirut. "At the same time we demand the establishment of humanitarian corridors."

Israel has stepped up its small-scale forays over the border in recent days, seeking Hezbollah positions, rocket stores and bunkers. Each time it has faced tough resistance from the guerrillas. Hezbollah announced that three of its fighters were killed in fighting Friday, bringing to six the number of guerrillas known to have been killed since Israel launched a massive military campaign against Lebanon after the militant Shiite Muslim group captured two of its soldiers on July 12.

An Israeli military radio station that broadcasts into southern Lebanon warned residents of 12 border villages to leave the area before 2 p.m. Friday. It was the latest in a series of recent warnings from the Al-Mashriq station, which has said Israeli forces would "act immediately" to halt Hezbollah rocket fire.

Heavy black smoke billowed as Israeli warplanes struck the ancient city of Baalbek in the eastern Bekaa Valley - a major Hezbollah stronghold.

A large building at the entrance to Baalbak was demolished and residential areas in the city were hit, killing two people and injuring 19, security officials said. Strikes in south Beirut killed one person, and missiles that hit a village near the border with Israel, Aita al-Shaab, killed three, the officials said.

The U.N. official, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the situation, said an artillery shell fired by the Israeli Defense Force "impacted a direct hit on the U.N. position overlooking Zarit."

An Israeli Defense Force spokesman said the position was hit by rockets fired by Hezbollah guerrillas at northern Israel. The differing accounts could not immediately be reconciled.

In 1996, during an Israeli air and artillery offensive against Lebanon, artillery blasted a U.N. base at Qana in southern Lebanon, killing more than 100 Lebanese civilians who had taken refuge with the peacekeepers.

The U.N. mission has nearly 2,000 peacekeepers and more than 300 civilians in southern Lebanon but the force has proven ineffective in policing the so-call Blue Line separating Israel and Lebanon in the six years since Israel pulled its troops out of the zone.

While Annan denounced Israel for "excessive use of force" and Hezbollah for holding "an entire nation hostage," the United States has resisted calls to press ally Israel to stop its offensive. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was expected to make her first foray to the region since the fighting began next week. Israeli officials said she was expected there no later than midweek.

Ships lined up at Beirut's port as a massive evacuation effort to pull out Americans and other foreigners desperate to flee the fighting picked up speed. U.S. officials said more than 8,000 of the roughly 25,000 Americans who live or work in Lebanon will be evacuated by the weekend.

Lebanese, meanwhile, streamed north into the capital and other regions, crowding into schools, relatives' homes or hotels. Taxi drivers in the south were charging up to US$400 per person for rides to Beirut - more than 40 times the usual price. In remote villages of the south, cut off by strikes, residents made their way out over the mountains by foot.

The price of food, medical supplies and gasoline rose by as much as 500 percent in parts of Lebanon on Thursday as Israel's relentless bombardment destroyed roads, bridges and other supply routes. The World Food Program said estimates of basic food supplies ranged from one to three months.

Neither side showed any sign of backing down.

Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah shrugged off concerns of a stepped-up Israeli onslaught, vowing never to release two Israeli soldiers captured by his guerrillas even "if the whole universe comes (against us)." He said they would be freed only as part of a prisoner exchange brokered through indirect negotiations.

He spoke in an interview with the Al-Jazeera news network taped Thursday to show he had survived a heavy airstrike in south Beirut that Israel said targeted a Hezbollah underground leadership bunker. The guerrillas said the strike only hit a mosque under construction and no one was hurt.

The U.N. estimated that about a half-million people have been displaced in Lebanon, with 130,000 fleeing to Syria and about 45,000 believed to be in need of assistance.

More than 400,000 people - perhaps as high as half a million - are believed to live south of the Litani, according to Timur Goskel, the former top U.N. adviser in the south.

The river has twice has been the border line for Israeli buffer zones. In 1978, Israel invaded up to the Litani to drive back Palestinian guerrillas, withdrawing from most of the south months later.

Israel invaded Lebanon again in a much bigger operation in June 1982 when its forces seized parts of Beirut. It eventually carved out a buffer zone that stopped at the Litani. That zone was reduced gradually but the Israeli presence lasted for 18 years until 2000, when it withdrew its troops completely from the country.



Copyright 2006 Associated Press. All rights reserved.

So I wonder how Israel will explain the other 30....??? Martians maybe ????


UN positions in Southern Lebanon 31 times yesterday alone
 
The U.N. mission has nearly 2,000 peacekeepers and more than 300 civilians in southern Lebanon but the force has proven ineffective in policing the so-call Blue Line separating Israel and Lebanon in the six years since Israel pulled its troops out of the zone.

While Annan denounced Israel for "excessive use of force" and Hezbollah for holding "an entire nation hostage,"
So, the UN was there watching the blue line, with their goal to prevent events such as people sneaking across the border and kidnapping soldiers or firing stuff at civilians, and they failed miserably?

And now Kofi Annan is once again denouncing people without mentioning the failings of his own organization?

Is it just me or does the UN seem to have some sort of special no blame shield whenever their missions fail? Why do they even arm their "peacekeepers?" They can't shoot unless fired upon, which means anyone who wants to get away with anything bad just has to walk around them and not fire a shot.
 
Here is an interesting little tid bit I found today.

From the Middle East Media Research Institute

Interviewer: "Did you inform them that you were about to abduct Israeli soldiers?"

Hassan Nasrallah: "I told them that we must resolve the issue of the prisoners, and that the only way to resolve it is by abducting Israeli soldiers."

Interviewer: "Did you say this clearly?"

Hassan Nasrallah: "Yes, and nobody said to me: 'No, you are not allowed to abduct Israeli soldiers.' Even if they had told me not to... I'm not defending myself here. I said that we would abduct Israeli soldiers, in meetings with some of the main political leaders in the country. I don't want to mention names now, but when the time comes to settle accounts, I will. They asked: 'If this happens, will the issue of the prisoners be over and done with?' I said that it was logical that it would. And I'm telling you, our estimation was not mistaken. I'm not exaggerating. Anywhere in the world - show me a country, show me an army, show me a war, in which two soldiers, or even civilian hostages, were abducted, and a war was waged against a country - and all for two soldiers. This has never happened throughout history, and even Israel has never done such a thing."



It looks like Lebanon knew what Hezbollah was up to. So, does that now make them accountable for these attacks on their soil?
 
FoolKiller
It looks like Lebanon knew what Hezbollah was up to. So, does that now make them accountable for these attacks on their soil?

I believe it does sir! Nice find.
 
ledhed
ksaiyu....do you live in an alternative Universe ?

Yes, because I don't agree with you, and you still believe that this is reasonable force to be exacted upon Lebanon. Sorry buddy, we don't all believe that Israel is whiter than white and should be allowed to "defend" it's people by targetting cars that are carrying the people THEY told to evacuate - what message does that send? Damned if you stay, and damned if you go. :lol:

No, but I think he is lying about his identity and is actually a professor at UCLA who writes op-ed pieces for the LA Times.

This piece is almost verbatim everything he has been saying.

Ksaiyu, if that isn't you then I would sue for plagiarism.

Yep, you got me 💡

I've already stated where I'm finding my information, that article isn't one, although it does agree with what I'm saying. Guess that can't be a coincindence now can it?

Why should they? They aren't Israeli citizens.

We'd be in a very dangerous world if all countries adopted that policy.

For the record that is horsecrap...they didnt have "bystander" or "hezbollah"
Stamped on their heads ..Hezbollah wears no uniform nor do they carry a union card.

lol sorry, it can only be the truth if we get to a more reasonable number to support your argument can we?

And for the record the "deaths' reported in Lebenon after all this " bombardment and artillery fire and multiple tons of bombs and explosives and all this so called wanton destruction ...is 300 ....WTF is wrong with that fiGure ?

40'000 rounds of artillery and over 350 killed, I don't see anything wrong. It's destroying Lebanon and it's future economy, as well as putting thousands of civilians into a humantarian crisis if they're lucky enough to survive.

300...is less than the amount of people shot on the streets of Phila in a year.
300...doesnt show anything like a DISPROPORTIONATE response .

Irrelevant to showing that it's an proportianate response.

It Proves the exact opposite .

Nah
 
KSaiyu
Yep, you got me 💡
I KNEW IT!!! :sly:

I've already stated where I'm finding my information, that article isn't one, although it does agree with what I'm saying. Guess that can't be a coincindence now can it?
I just thought it was funny, so I was messing with you a bit.
 
Sorry, I didn't know if it was serious or not - internet and all that :D

Swift - if that information is true, it shows just how useless and weak that government is, but still doesn't justify Israel's response. It does go to show as well that the government believed Israel was holding prisoners from Lebanon, although it's a shame they're foolish to believe Hezbollah could barter a release.
 
KSaiyu
Swift - if that information is true, it shows just how useless and weak that government is, but still doesn't justify Israel's response. It does go to show as well that the government believed Israel was holding prisoners from Lebanon, although it's a shame they're foolish to believe Hezbollah could barter a release.

What do you mean if? You believe that a few hundred people are dead with no problem but have a hard time with a documented interview? Interesting.

Actually, you're right it doesn't justify Israel's response. It makes it seem small to what it should be. If the Lebanese government is knowingly consorting with the enemy and allowing things to go on in their borders that they know is against pretty much every international policy, then they deserve to be thrown out of office and a new government instilled. By all rights, Israel could count Lebanon in general as the problem(since the government is a willing accomplice in the terrorist activities) and simple destroy the entire country. Instead, they are specifically targeting Hezbollah targets. Downright merciful if you ask me.
 
Swift
What do you mean if? You believe that a few hundred people are dead with no problem but have a hard time with a documented interview? Interesting.

Ahhhhh, that's because I don't trust Hezbollah, EVEN their death counts and the propaganda they spout to rally arabs to support them.
 
So then how do you believe any of it? Outside of the basic events that are going on? any death tolls reported work on the side of the Hezbollah. Unless of course they are in Israel in which they seem to not be reported at all.
 
KSaiyu
Yes, because I don't agree with you, and you still believe that this is reasonable force to be exacted upon Lebanon. Sorry buddy, we don't all believe that Israel is whiter than white and should be allowed to "defend" it's people by targetting cars that are carrying the people THEY told to evacuate - what message does that send? Damned if you stay, and damned if you go.

If only that was it... There are reports that Israel is using cluster bombs in civilian areas, as well as white phosphorous bombs (Israel urged to shun cluster bomb). As well as shelling a UN outpost for the better part of a day yesterday; that had been in place for almost 30 years, and resulted in the deaths of four unarmed observers ( Israel bombed UN staff 'despite pleas'). Israel seems to have carte blanche to do what ever it feels like, thanks to America's nonchalant attitude to the whole crisis. Israel is clearly flouting some rules of combat that are defined by the Geneva convetions - It seems its acceptable to act like terrorist if it is in defence of your homeland.

On top of all that, America has been using a Scotish airport (without the knowledge of the British government) to trasport bombs to Israel Beckett protest at weapons flight. I thought the we (the British) were supposed to be allies with America, so why all this subterfuge?

Beckett protest at weapons flight
The Lib Dems say reports of the bombs at Prestwick Airport suggest the US is taking the UK for granted.

Nuff said.
 
magburner
Israel seems to have carte blanche to do what ever it feels like, thanks to America's nonchalant attitude

That's a stretch.

magburner
Israel is clearly flouting some rules of combat that are defined by the Geneva convetions

Really? Which ones?
 
Famine
That's a stretch.

Is it? America is using the conflict as a tool to end once and for all the Syrian and Iranian problem. It is obvious what is going on. Apportion blame, and then fire off the political rhetoric - its a tried and tested policy of the Bush administration. Do you remember the 'open mic' gaff by Bush and Blair? You need no more proof than that. I personally don't see this conflict ending until both those nations have been damaged politically or actually.

Famine
Really? Which ones?

Well by our standards, they are flouting many, but since Israel has abstained from some parts of the Geneva Convention, they probably feel that what they are doing is perfectly acceptable.From what I've read online and seen in the news since the crisis started, I'd go with this not conclusive list: Destruction of civilian infrastructure, deliberately targeting civillians, attacking red cross medics, attacking a UN observation post, using cluster bombs in civillian areas, using white phosphorous in civillian areas, destroying infrastructure deemed protected like powerstations etc.
 
magburner
Is it? America is using the conflict as a tool to end once and for all the Syrian and Iranian problem. It is obvious what is going on. Apportion blame, and then fire off the political rhetoric - its a tried and tested policy of the Bush administration. Do you remember the 'open mic' gaff by Bush and Blair? You need no more proof than that. I personally don't see this conflict ending until both those nations have been damaged politically or actually.

How is Israel's bombing of southern Lebanon in any way related to the US, Syria or Iran? The only connections I can think of are Syria's offer to help Lebanon get rid of Hezb'Allah, and the fact that Condoleeza Rice wasted a couple of days in Jerusalem.

What "open mic" gaffe?


magburner
Well by our standards, they are flouting many, but since Israel has abstained from some parts of the Geneva Convention, they probably feel that what they are doing is perfectly acceptable.

So in fact they aren't in breach of the Geneva Convention.

magburner
From what I've read online and seen in the news since the crisis started, I'd go with this not conclusive list: Destruction of civilian infrastructure

Ah, like we did in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq?

magburner
deliberately targeting civillians

No proof of this.

magburner
attacking red cross medics, attacking a UN observation post

And, assuming you meant "deliberately", there's no proof of this either.

magburner
using cluster bombs in civillian areas, using white phosphorous in civillian areas

Their enemy hide in civilian areas and they TOLD THE CIVILIANS TO LEAVE OR RISK INJURY BEFORE THEY STARTED THE CAMPAIGN. There should be no civilians left to get injured, unless they're legendarily stupid, so it shouldn't be a civilian area.

magburner
destroying infrastructure deemed protected like powerstations etc.

Ah, like we did in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq?

But, as you point out, Israel are not signatory to the Geneva Convention, and so aren't breaching anything at all.
 
danoff
Hey there, leave us out of it. We didn't cause this.

Hey, I'm not having a go at the American people, just the policies of your administration. Whilst Condoleezza Rice is having a jolly around Europe and the Middle-East the war rages in Lebanon. There seems no urgency in stopping the cnflict, and much speculation about broadening it. America has the power to put an end to this conflict, but there seems to be little political will to sort it out. Also, haven't you noticed how the emphasis seems to have moved from Lebanon to Syria and Iran? America seems to have turned its back on the 'fledgling democracy' that it wanted to protect not so long ago.

Look, I don't mind Israel defending its borders, and even creating a buffer zone in Sothern Lebanon until a multi-national force takes over. What I object to is the far reaching air strikes that are killing or harming innocent Lebanese civillians. Sure Hezbollah are firing rockets into Northern Israel (an equally deplorable act), but lets not forget who are supposed to be the terrorists here.
 
magburner
...There seems no urgency in stopping the cnflict, and much speculation about broadening it. America has the power to put an end to this conflict, but there seems to be little political will to sort it out.

...you say that as though we (American government) caused this. :rolleyes:
 
Famine
What "open mic" gaffe?[/color][/b]

Uh? You obviously haven't been following the News then? I'll give you a clue, it was at the G8 summit....

Famine
So in fact they aren't in breach of the Geneva Convention.

Yes they are. Just because they don't recognise the laws, doesnt mean that they are not culpable.

Famine
Ah, like we did in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq?

Exactly. The rules seem to be he who is on top, writes the rules.

Famine
No proof of this.

And, assuming you meant "deliberately", there's no proof of this either.

Hmmm... I'm going to have to pull up a list of evidence, but you'll probably deny that too. :sly:

Famine
Their enemy hide in civilian areas and they TOLD THE CIVILIANS TO LEAVE OR RISK INJURY BEFORE THEY STARTED THE CAMPAIGN. There should be no civilians left to get injured, unless they're legendarily stupid, so it shouldn't be a civilian area.

I agree that Hezbollah rather cowardly hide themselves in civillian areas, but the method that Israel is using is akin to 'a bull in a china shop'. Its like, 'If we can't find their headquarters, lets just bomb any building we suspect might be their head quarters'.

Famine
Ah, like we did in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and Iraq?


See above.

famine
But, as you point out, Israel are not signatory to the Geneva Convention, and so aren't breaching anything at all.

Also see above.
 
danoff
...you say that as though we (American government) caused this. :rolleyes:

No, I don't, but I do feel that there has been a little encouragement. George Bush has often quoted that America is the worlds police force etc, well if thats the case, he should start being a little less partisan.

How do you think America can earn respect for its policies in the Arab world, when every time a conflict involves Arabs, America is always against them?
 
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