Israel and Lebanon

[magburner]

I think you are trying to place too much blame on the US when we already have Secretary Rice leading conferences to try and solve the situation with multiple countries.

Hold on a minute! I'm not blaming America for starting this conflict, all I did was question why America had not pressed Israel into a ceasefire. Its hardly the same, and your quote, is the second time I've been accused now. If you can find any comment here that I have posted that says 'America is to blame' or words to that effect, then I'll hold my hands up. otherwise, I think I deserve an apology.

Secretary Rice's conferences trying to solve the situation don't look too convincing. On the one hand she's saying we need to have a lasting ceasefire, on the other hand George Bush is flying in more bombs! WTF? Are they playing the good cop, bad cop routine on Hezbollah or something? The whole affair stinks of duplicity.

A while back in this thread, it was stated that it was the Lebanese goverments fault for not disarming Hezbollah, and whilst technically it may be true, evidently, it is not true. The Israeli army, after 16 days of heavy shelling, airstrikes, and cross-border incursions has failed to destroy Hezbollah, what chance does the militarily inferior Lebanese army have?

Infact, so far in the cross-border raids, Israel has been paying a high price taking on Hezbollah. I've said all along, that the Lebanese army was incapable of removing the terrorists, the rising death toll of Israeli soldiers proves that.

 

[Danoff]

Hold on a minute! I'm not blaming America for starting this conflict, all I did was question why America had not pressed Israel into a ceasefire. Its hardly the same, and your quote, is the second time I've been accused now. If you can find any comment here that I have posted that says 'America is to blame' or words to that effect, then I'll hold my hands up. otherwise, I think I deserve an apology.

That's not true, you've been accused of that more than twice at this point. I know I alone accused you of that at least 3 times. And you do not deserve an apology. You've implied that America is to blame several times. I guess old habits die hard.

Secretary Rice's conferences trying to solve the situation don't look too convincing. On the one hand she's saying we need to have a lasting ceasefire, on the other hand George Bush is flying in more bombs! WTF? Are they playing the good cop, bad cop routine on Hezbollah or something? The whole affair stinks of duplicity.

Perhaps because we're conflicted? We'd like to save Lebanon's democracy while allowing Israel to wail on the terrorists.

A while back in this thread, it was stated that it was the Lebanese goverments fault for not disarming Hezbollah, and whilst technically it may be true, evidently, it is not true. The Israeli army, after 16 days of heavy shelling, airstrikes, and cross-border incursions has failed to destroy Hezbollah, what chance does the militarily inferior Lebanese army have?

...and so because they were unable to it isn't their fault? Uh....

Infact, so far in the cross-border raids, Israel has been paying a high price taking on Hezbollah. I've said all along, that the Lebanese army was incapable of removing the terrorists, the rising death toll of Israeli soldiers proves that.

...and what does THAT prove?

 

[Sphinx]

The US wants an end to hostilities but won’t talk to terrorists, (how long did it take the UK to learn that lesson?) thus making the process much longer to resolve, if at all. Yet at the same time they are sending arms to Israel.

The UK wants an end to hostilities but faster, but Blair has to tow the line with the way Bush wants to do it otherwise he will end up looking an arse, and at the same time allowing the aircraft that is carrying the arms from the US to Israel to refuel in the UK before it reaches its target for yet more death and destruction. Pukka. 👍

 

[magburner]

That's not true, you've been accused of that more than twice at this point. I know I alone accused you of that at least 3 times. And you do not deserve an apology. You've implied that America is to blame several times. I guess old habits die hard.

Uh, no I haven't. Here are the quotes you took exception to.

...thanks to America's nonchalant attitude to the whole crisis.

You said:

Hey there, leave us out of it. We didn't cause this.

There was no accusation in that statement that America had caused the conflict. I implied that America seemed indifferent to the plight of the Lebanese, and until recently, that was the case.

Is it? America is using the conflict as a tool to end once and for all the Syrian and Iranian problem.

You said:

You say that as though we caused this...

Again, there is no accusation there. I implied that America was using the conflict to gain political capital over Syria and Iran. Thats true, and Its been widely reported on.

...There seems no urgency in stopping the conflict, and much speculation about broadening it. America has the power to put an end to this conflict, but there seems to be little political will to sort it out.

and you said:

...you say that as though we (American government) caused this. :rollseyes:

Maybe I meandered a little with the quote about broadening the conflict, but there is still no accusation there.

No, I don't, but I do feel that there has been a little encouragement.

and you said:

You mean in going after terrorist organizations? Because I'll agree that our actions in the middle east encourage other countries to play hardball against terrorists. But that doesn't mean we're responsible for their actions.

Lastly, there is no accusation of blame there either. The 'encouragement' I was talking about were the arms shipments, maybe I should of made that point a little clearer.

Now on looking at those statements, I can't see anything that would suggest that I had said that America had caused the conflict. Like I stated earlier, all I did was question why America had not used its influence with Israel to bring about a ceasefire, or at the very least, critisized Israels attacks on innocent civillians. If thats your idea of blame, then hey! I'm guilty!

If you where going to pull me up on anything though, I thought it would be accusing America of prolonging the conflict, but starting it? You've got it all wrong.

Whether you like it or not, America is indirectly a part of this conflict, just as the UK, Syria, and Iran are. Why can't you have an open and honest debate about your countries role, without pulling out the tired old 'great satan' quips? I'm happy to discuss/critisize my countries roll in the conflict, why can't you do the same? I have no problem with America save for those idiots who thought they could use my country as a cheap-ass drive-thru.

Perhaps because we're conflicted? We'd like to save Lebanon's democracy while allowing Israel to wail on the terrorists.

Maybe its just me. If I want someone to co-operate with me, I don't pretend to be friendly, then punch them in the head the moment their back is turned.

...and so because they were unable to it isn't their fault? Uh....

No, but you can't just assume it is as black and white as you would suggest it is - There is a world of difference between unable and unwilling.

...and what does THAT prove?

It proves that a force much greater than the Lebanese army cannot destroy Hezbollah. Remember, The Lebanese army doesn't have an airforce, or a navy, or the high-tech weaponry that Israel has. If Israel can't stop Hezbollah, the Lebanese army sure as hell can't; and its made all the harder now because there isn't a single bridge standing, and all the major highways have all been bombed. The terrorists might use the infrastructure of Lebanon, but the army also needs to use it if its going to disarm them.

I guess old habits die hard.

Whats that supposed to mean?

 

[Danoff]

...thanks to America's nonchalant attitude to the whole crisis.

As in... "America's nonchalant attitude to the whole crisis causes..."

That's what "thanks to" means. It means "caused by".

Is it? America is using the conflict as a tool to end once and for all the Syrian and Iranian problem.

Establishing the motive is the first step in getting a guilty verdict. You're essentially saying that we have ulterior motives for the conflict to continue/occur in the first place. Now why would you want to point that out?

...There seems no urgency in stopping the conflict, and much speculation about broadening it. America has the power to put an end to this conflict, but there seems to be little political will to sort it out.

Again you point out that America not only wants to the conflict to continue, but perhaps wants it to broaden. Now why would you be establishing motive like this?

Also, you state that America has the power to stop the conflict. Thereby implying that America's lack of action causes the conflict to continue.

When I say "cause" the conflict. I mean either "initiate" the conflict or "cause it to continue".

Maybe its just me. If I want someone to co-operate with me, I don't pretend to be friendly, then punch them in the head the moment their back is turned.

You're confusing Hezbollah with the Lebanese government. It's an understandable mistake since they overlap. But we're picking which part of the Lebanese governemnt we want to work with, and which part we don't. We're working with the front of the head, and punching the back.

There is a world of difference between unable and unwilling.

...though the result is the same - a failed promise. Not that Lebanon was willing... Electing terrorists to the government isn't quite the same thing as lacking the power to remove them.

Whats that supposed to mean?

Just what I said. I'm GUESSING that you have a habit of blaming America and it's difficult for you to NOT blame America - even for a conflict that we have little if anything to do with.

 

[magburner]

OK, read this report on the BBC News website, it comes to the similar conclusions, and was posted after my initial thoughts.

Washington risks a wider conflict

Previous eruptions of violence that began in a roughly similar manner, such as the 1996 Grapes of Wrath bombardment, were curtailed at a much lower level than the current paroxysm.

One major difference this time is that Israel enjoys an indulgence from Washington far beyond anything previous, essentially giving it a free hand.

While previous administrations, despite commitment to the strategic alliance with Israel, kept at least some distance in earlier crises, the US under George W Bush immediately adopted Israel's primary war aim.

There could be no ceasefire until the "root problem - Hezbollah is addressed". Israel would not be under pressure to halt until Hezbollah had been defeated and destroyed.

The agony of Lebanon was, like the carnage in Iraq, part of the birth pains of the New Middle East for the neo-conservative ideologues in Washington.

This was Israel's contribution to the war on terror, dealing a blow to a proxy offspring of those "axis of evil" nations, Syria and Iran.

The full two-part article:

History repeats with a vengeance (part 1)

Washington risks a wider conflict (part 2)

As for hating America, I will repeat for the last time, I have no problem! I'm trying to cover all aspects of this conflict with my posts. I've defended the innocent Lebanese people so far, been critical of Israels use of over whelming force, and questioned America's role in diplomacy. I've still to get onto the scumbags on the other side of the conflict ie Hezbollah, Syria, Iran, and Al Qaeda. If it's a problem for you, I will not mention America again.

 

[Swift]

You're right, it's not an answer to this particular conflict, it's a general answer. I don't have one, but then again that doesn't make me less capable of judging that this is force taken too far.

Actually, yes it does. How can you call someone else "wrong" when you're not even remotely sure what is "right". That's like going to an athlete and saying, "You're running in really bad form", they reply, "Ok, how could I run better?", you say, "I don't know. I just know that what you're doing now is wrong." Obviously, that person is NOT going to consider anything you say because your critique is without any substance.

Magburner, I think America as well as the rest of the western nations of the world have a vested interest to help Israel in this conflict. Because wiping out terrorists means just that, wiping out terrorists. But we can't say to Israel, ok, that's enough just back off now. It's unfair, especially while the rockets are raining down on you.

The US wants an end to hostilities but won’t talk to terrorists, (how long did it take the UK to learn that lesson?) thus making the process much longer to resolve, if at all. Yet at the same time they are sending arms to Israel.

Yeah, negotiating with people that want you utterly annihilated. That's a smart way to go. They want to destroy Israel and destroy America so let's sit down and have a nice chat with the murderous terrorists and see if we can "talk" it out. Talking is for governments, terrorists don't want to talk, they just want to destroy those they hate.

 

[ledhed]

Hold on a minute! I'm not blaming America for starting this conflict, all I did was question why America had not pressed Israel into a ceasefire. Its hardly the same, and your quote, is the second time I've been accused now. If you can find any comment here that I have posted that says 'America is to blame' or words to that effect, then I'll hold my hands up. otherwise, I think I deserve an apology.

Secretary Rice's conferences trying to solve the situation don't look too convincing. On the one hand she's saying we need to have a lasting ceasefire, on the other hand George Bush is flying in more bombs! WTF? Are they playing the good cop, bad cop routine on Hezbollah or something? The whole affair stinks of duplicity.

A while back in this thread, it was stated that it was the Lebanese goverments fault for not disarming Hezbollah, and whilst technically it may be true, evidently, it is not true. The Israeli army, after 16 days of heavy shelling, airstrikes, and cross-border incursions has failed to destroy Hezbollah, what chance does the militarily inferior Lebanese army have?

Infact, so far in the cross-border raids, Israel has been paying a high price taking on Hezbollah. I've said all along, that the Lebanese army was incapable of removing the terrorists, the rising death toll of Israeli soldiers proves that.

Why would the US press for a cease fire that would ONLY benifit the Hezbollah ?

The US is doing the excact right thing..along with our awsome friends the British , its allowing Israel to defend itself and strike at hezbollah while lining up support for a plan that will help Lebenon and disarm all militia in the South to provide security for both Lebenon and surounding staes .

A solution that will actually work instaed of a bandaid that will fall off and allow the region to bleed again .

I have got to say Britain has to be one the best and most faithfull friends the US could ever have . I cant express exactly what that means to me personally or to most Americans ..but I can tell you this ..Great Britain will never have to worry about getting any type of help ..including people from the US for whatever they ever need .

 

[RallyF1]

Why would the US press for a cease fire that would ONLY benifit the Hezbollah ?

The US is doing the excact right thing..along with our awsome friends the British , its allowing Israel to defend itself and strike at hezbollah while lining up support for a plan that will help Lebenon and disarm all militia in the South to provide security for both Lebenon and surounding staes .

A solution that will actually work instaed of a bandaid that will fall off and allow the region to bleed again .

I have got to say Britain has to be one the best and most faithfull friends the US could ever have . I cant express exactly what that means to me personally or to most Americans ..but I can tell you this ..Great Britain will never have to worry about getting any type of help ..including people from the US for whatever they ever need .

the british people do not support blair, they did not support him on iraq and they are not supporting him on israrl. right now i'm watching CNN international the british version that america doesn't watch and it is obvious theire discontent of the israelis and what they are doing. just right now as i type this response, 60 peole mostly women, elderly, and children got killed by the so called American laser-guided missles the israelis are using, such accuracy and such high level intellegence they posses!!!!
does it matter if i support either side, i guess not from what i see is unfairness by the international comunity. this is a one sided war with the fire power in the wrong hands, not if it was with hizbollah it would have been any better. but it is truly shamefull that the jewish people who supposedley suffered during WWII should know better when it comes to taking human lifes, yet we see them buttchering civilians.
What Kind of justice is that, the justice that America and the israelis are banging theire heads about proved so far to be fruitless, ISN'T TIME THAT THEY CHOOSE SOME OTHER METHOD.
Shame on the them the so called freedom-lovers-democracy-embrassing goverments.
this is but only a "target training" war for new artilery israel is getting using live breathing targets. shame on them. and shame on theire supporters. shame, shame, shame, im so disgusted from everybody and the current presidency in particular. such hipocracy, such atrocities, disgust disgust disgust.
Fact: 2 israelis got abducted in hopes of prisoner exchange.
that's what all started it...
Fact: 500 lebanese have been slaughtered.
Fact: 30 Israelis have been savaged.
Fact: israeli infrastcture damaged.....none
Fact: lebanese infrastructure damaged...... 45%
what kind of justice is that, justice is barried in a sealed coffin and i'm standing at the tombstone weaping. The future is Bleak.
And Yes i want to see hizbullah disarmed, yes i want the lebanese army to be the only authority in lebanon, and yes i wanted to see israel returning every last inch of lebanese soil.

 

[Famine]

yet we see them buttchering civilians.

Hezb'Allah shelter in civilian areas. Civilians told when and where Israel would strike and to leave if they didn't want to be injured. 100,000 civilians left for Syria 3 days before the fighting started.

How many more times?

And Yes i want to see hizbullah disarmed

How?

 

[RallyF1]

Hezb'Allah shelter in civilian areas. Civilians told when and where Israel would strike and to leave if they didn't want to be injured. 100,000 civilians left for Syria 3 days before the fighting started.

How many more times?



How?

what ever happened to ground troops, whatever happened to being in the battelfield, i guess the killing is more when it is done by air. you want to be precise and avoid civillian casualties, you go in to the battelfield not fly over it.
there is something called negotiations and common grounds. as long as you keep insulting the other side the more tenacious he becomes, keep on minisculing him and he will keep on getting in your face. recognise him and respect him you will get a lot more from him. as long as israel is playing this game of degrading it's enemy and the people around it the longer it will go on. these are passionate and emotional people. when israel kills, it kills according to numbers and bearings and maps, when hizbollah kills they kill out of emotion and from recent events it looks like that they are also a sophistcated group that no one ever expected them to be and that basically means they are more than ever determined to take on israel to prove themselves. the only way to stop this insanity is to recognise them and who they are and work with it.
disarming such a well rooted organization will never ever, ever happen over night. they are a political party, they have the backing of 1/3 of the lebanese people mostly shiaa that's 1 million plus; that's a lot of people, they build hospitals, schools, and houses, they are a group that you can not scratch off with jitter of a pen or a blast of a rocket. REASON and SANITY is the only way out. Israelis are fools if they think such a group can be wiped off in a week a month or even a year they will never fade away, but they will cooperate.
you mentioned people leaving for syria, do you know what happened during the cedar revolution, do yu know why it happened, the lebanese people wnated the syrians out of lebanon and they where able to achieve now the syrians are getting back at them by extorting the people for 1000.00$ each person so that he or she can cross the border talk about extortion at its best.

 

[Famine]

what ever happened to ground troops, whatever happened to being in the battelfield, i guess the killing is more when it is done by air. you want to be precise and avoid civillian casualties, you go in to the battelfield not fly over it.

If you want to sacrifice your own men, yes, that's a good idea.

On the other hand, if you want to obliterate your enemy with little loss on your side - not to mention "shock and awe" - you run hundreds of thousands of air sorties, just as we did in both Gulf Wars and the Balkans.

Strategically, sending in ground troops before you've wiped out the bulk of your opposition, is dumb.

there is something called negotiations and common grounds.

Hezb'Allah's stated goal is "the eradication of Israel".

Now tell me. How can you negotiate terms with someone who refuses to acknowledge that you have any rights as a person and whose sole aim is your death?

you mentioned people leaving for syria, do you know what happened during the cedar revolution, do yu know why it happened, the lebanese people wnated the syrians out of lebanon and they where able to achieve now the syrians are getting back at them by extorting the people for 1000.00$ each person so that he or she can cross the border talk about extortion at its best.

They don't have to leave for Syria - and Syria don't have to let them in. It's their choice - just as it's the Lebanese people's choices to get out of the areas they were told would be bombed or to stay and become propaganda.

The people who have chosen to leave the area have three choices to my mind. Northern Lebanon, which is not affected, Syria or the UN controlled border between Syria and the Golan Heights, which has a border with Lebanon. In fact, since there is a UN "Blue Line" stretching southern Lebanon, I'd say that this is the easiest route to go (though, since the UN's record in doing their job in this region is quite poor, it may not be the safest route). They don't HAVE to leave for Syria - and Syria are not compelled to allow them entry.

 

[ledhed]

Hezbollah is using CIVILLIANS DELIBERATELY because they miscalculated the Israeli response and because it is ALLWAYS part of their strategy .
They see TV and news as JUST ANOTHER WEAPON and you are nothing more than a " TOOL " to be used by them by voicing an opinion against Israel .

No other country in the world would be under constant bombardment by misssiles and rockets and be CRITICIZED for striking back .

Stop being hypocrits at best and at worse tools for propaganda or apologist for terorist ..lay the blame where it belongs at the FEET OF HEZBOLLAH and watch them change tactics ...but until you do they will fire rockets from school yards during recess...the more dead civilians the better .

The only good thing that comes of this is a wake up call..Hezbollah is armed and controlled by Iran ...what if Iran gets a nuke ? unlike NK ...they do not need a missile to deliver it . they have Hezbollah martyr mail express Jihad service .

 

[magburner]

Why would the US press for a cease fire that would ONLY benifit the Hezbollah ?

The US is doing the excact right thing..along with our awsome friends the British , its allowing Israel to defend itself and strike at hezbollah while lining up support for a plan that will help Lebenon and disarm all militia in the South to provide security for both Lebenon and surounding staes .

It doesn't really matter when the ceasefire happens, because it will benefit the terrorists. Hezbollah kidnapped the two soldiers as a means to get the release of Lebanese soldiers held by Israel. I've established that Hezbollah didn't expect the level of force that Israel meted out on Lebanon, but from the start they said that the soldiers would not be released until negotiations for the release of Lebanese captives had taken place. The longer this conflict continues, the easier it will be for Hezbollah to gain their release. There are already signs that America and the UK are wobbling in their support for Israel. (see below).

A solution that will actually work instaed of a bandaid that will fall off and allow the region to bleed again .

The only solution to the problem is to negotiate with the terrorists, no matter how unpalletable it may seem. Pretending Hezbollah are not there will not make them go away, infact it will only make things worse. Whether we like it or not, Hezbollah is here to stay, so the only way to defeat them is to take away the reasons for them attacking Israel. Removing Israel from the middle East is out of the question, but Israel could retreat from all the land it has occupied (ie. Shebaa Farms, and the Golan Heights), and impliment United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 (Wikipedia) which calls for the "withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict" (Lebanon wants return of Shebaa Farms (aljazeera.net)). As well as release all Lebanese prisoners. There are voices in the Lebanese Government and Syria that they will not settle for anything less than this.

America and UK Wobbling?

Dozens killed in Israeli airstrikes (BBC)

This is a despicable attack on innocent civillians, and Israel should not get away with it. Sure you'll say that the civillians had fore warning about the attack, but the Lebanese know that they are no safer fleeing the violence than they are staying put (Narrow Escape (BBC)). Israels strategy of bombing civillian areas is flawed, and has done NOTHING AT ALL to stop the rocket attacks into Northern Israel.

Watch the two video's of a visibly shaken Condoleezza Rice and Tony Blair.

I'm deeply saddened by the terrible loss of innocent life in a bombing in Lebanon this morning. The people of Lebanon have the deepest sympathies of President Bush, the people of the United States, and my own heartfelt condolences. Our prayers go out to all the victims and their families. I first learned of this tragic loss of life as I was meeting with the Israeli defence minister this morning; and once again I was re-iterating our strong concern about the impact of Israeli military operations on innocent civillians during crisis.

We are working very hard to try to stop the violence. Too many innocent people - Lebanese and Israeli have suffered. Too many people have lost their lives, too many families are homeless, and too many children have been killed, injured, or are living in fear for their lives. The circumstances are very difficult and emotions are understandibly running high on all sides. I just spoke by telephone to Priminister Siniora and conveyed my condolences personally to him and to the people of Lebanon.

In the wake of the tragedy that the people and the governemnt of Lebanon are dealing with today, I have decided to postpone my discussions in Beirut. In anycase, my work today is here. I will continue to meet with Israeli officials as we work to put in place the elements necessary to bring an end to this conflict. We're making real progress on a political framework and believe the parties are coming together on this aspect. We are also pushing for an urgent end to the current hostilities, but the views of the parties on how to achieve this are different. the work we do here will make it possible for the United Nations Security Council to take decisive action for a ceasfire as soon as possible.

Watch the statement by Condoleezza Rice (BBC)

WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!!! "I'm deeply saddened by the terrible loss of innocent life..." she says as the bombs are STILL being shipped to Israel. Airport handles more US flights. (BBC) (UK anger over US bomb flights (Aljazeera.net))Who is she trying to convince with her mock show of sadness? It certainly didn't impress me, and I doubt anyone else would fall for it either. Maybe I'm being a little cynical here, but civillians have been dying in Lebanon for the last 18 days. The civillian death toll curently stands at 600, so whats taken so long for this response? To show sympathy this late in the game is an insult to the people of Lebanon. Instead of sympathies, how about a ceasefire?

"In the wake of the tragedy that the people and the governemnt of Lebanon are dealing with today, I have decided to postpone my discussions in Beirut." She said. She forgot to mention that an angry mob of Lebanese civillians had trashed the UN headquarters in Beirut chanting slogans like "Death to America!"

Anger in Beirut after Qana strike (BBC)

Lebanon tells Rice to stay away (Aljazeera.net)

Also see spineless Tony's comments on the civillian masacre: Lebanon crisis 'cannot continue' (BBC)

"There is something fundamentally wrong with a war where there are more dead children than armed men. That has to stop," he said, quoting Lebanese figures that put the death toll at 600.

"These bombs ... are American bombs," said Syrian U.N. Ambassador Bashar Jaafari. "They call them laser-guided bombs but actually they are hatred-guided bombs, and unfortunately these bombs are made in the U.S.A.."

Full story: Qana attack stirs worldwide outcry (CNN)

"Israel was saying that there was a rocket launcher in the house but then why didn't any of the people in there notice this and leave?"

Full story: Lebanese desperate but defiant (Aljazeera.net)

Video broadcast by Arab TV showed the bloodied bodies of women and children who appeared to be wearing nightclothes. Many of the bodies were under rubble in the basement of the building.

Full story: Airstrike killing dozens of civilians called a 'mistake' (CNN)

It didn't have to be like this though, Hezbollah could of been politically weakened nearly two weeks ago. Back then, Most of the Arab world was united in denouncing Hezbollahs actions. There was a golden oppportunity to call a ceasefire and possibly rein in Hezbollah, or at the least negotiate on our terms. Now almost three weeks after the conflict begun, Hezbollah has regained the political initiative, and its attacks are seen as justifed by many in the Middle East. The longer this conflict continues, the more capital Hezbollah gains from its own people and from others around the Arab world.

Remember the wider conflict I mentioned earlier? Well it's getting closer...

Hezb'Allah shelter in civilian areas. Civilians told when and where Israel would strike and to leave if they didn't want to be injured.

This is a flawed argument. Do you honestly believe that Hezbollah would stay in a town where the civillians have been order to leave by Israel? By the time that Israel dropped the leaflets, Hezbollah was probably long gone. Or do you think that the Israeli army managed to alert the Lebanese people without Hezbollah knowing? Yes they may use civillian areas as cover whilst they fire their rockets into Israel, but to think that they would sit there waiting for an Israeli airstrike to wipe them out is ludicrous.

Hezbollah is a highly trained, highly motivated, and heavily armed militia, that knows the terrain of Southern Lebanon extremely well. Israel knows this, but will not engage them in a ground offensive. Why? Each time so far that Israel has tried, it has suffered a high price. Israel's policy of airstrikes and limited ground incursions will not stop the rockets, it will only play into the hands of Hezbollah. Sooner or later Israel is going to have to invade Lebanon fully, and take on Hezbollah, but I fear that the time and political will for a ground war is passing by.

 

[Famine]

This is a flawed argument.

No it isn't - and here's the proof:

Do you honestly believe that Hezbollah would stay in a town where the civillians have been order to leave by Israel?

Do you honestly believe that civilians would stay in a town where they've been told by Israel to leave or risk death?

Oh look, some did.

By the time that Israel dropped the leaflets, Hezbollah was probably long gone.

Or they thought exactly the same thing as the civilians who remained.

"Pfft. Yeah right. Israel will never do that."

Hezb'Allah have already admitted to being "surprised" by the scale of the Israeli response...

 

[magburner]

Do you honestly believe that civilians would stay in a town where they've been told by Israel to leave or risk death?

Oh look, some did.

I posted links in my last post as to why civillians might of stayed. The infrastructure in Lebanon is in a terrible state, and there is no reasurances that they would get out alive anyway. Attacks on civillians fleeing the combat have been widely reported by the worlds media

...The Lebanese know that they are no safer fleeing the violence than they are staying put...

Hezb'Allah have already admitted to being "surprised" by the scale of the Israeli response...[/color][/b]

I know, I posted the link to the article here; but do you think they are still surprised?

 

[ledhed]

The solution is to disarm Hezbollah by what ever mens neccessary and fully impliment UN reolution 1559 .

Until then Lebanon is a war zone . Israel will not nor can they cease fire until either they disarm and dismantle Hezbollah or the Lebanese and the rest of the world do it .

Magburner ..no other country on earth would be expected to do any less than what Israel is doing . Over two thousand rockets and missiles fired into Israel.

Fire one missile at the US . or Britain or France or Germany ...what do you expect to happen ?

 

[RallyF1]

I will make it as simple as possible. And I will say that before I proceed: Hezbollah will and have to disarm once the liberation of Lebanon is achieved, otherwise there will be another civil war.
But the main reason for this article is to see if the above mentioned group should be labeled as terrorists.
In WWII France had a resistance movement that worked on destroying the Nazi army wherever they are in France, the same thing happened in Lebanon by Hezbollah yet we don't call them terrorists. George Washington fought in guerilla groups in order to drive British troops out, yet we do not call him a terrorist on the contrary we call him a founding father, but we dare calling Hezbollah a terrorist organization.
Why the double standards, as long as ones country is occupied by an enemy the people of that country have the right to resist the occupier, or are it that the French resistance are human beings and the Lebanese are not. Hezbollah is made of Lebanese people, not Iranians, not Syrians, only Lebanese yes they are supplied by these countries the same way George Washington was supplied by the French during his fighting and the other way around during WWII.
let's not hide and lie to each other, the reason Arabs are labeled as terrorists every now and then is because of there religious preference, it has been like that since the crusades and it will never change anytime soon.
But what really bothers me is that when the Jews before becoming Israelis at the end of WWII went to Palestine and bought land and houses and then started killing the inhabitants of that country and terrorizing them in guerilla warfare style and then declared that country as Israel, yet we did not call them terrorists. Israel’s creation was based on terrorism, if you don't believe me look and ask around you will be choked with what you find out.
Oh but no Israelis are nice people that's what you will say, but I will dare to say that they are terrorists from the get go, and if this statement is considered slandering then I demand that this whole thread be shut down because Muslims and Arabs have been slandered through out this thread and through out the "off-topic" section of this website. I am a Muslim and my faith has been trampled on through out this whole thread and I remained silent because I believe in the freedom of speech and expression, but if my statement is considered slanderous I would like to say that this is hypocrisy at its best.
And going back to Qana ( in 1996 Israel bombed a U.N. outpost in Qana killing 100 people, and it is all documented, all of the 160 where civilians). Couldn’t they destroy that mobile rocket launcher that is situated in between the buildings which house civilians with a smaller rocket, a side winder for example?
You know these mobile launchers are fixed on cars and trucks, how big of a missile do you have to use to destroy it....hold on wait, a bunker buster rocket should do the trick. Because truck and cars are called bunkers and we should use rockets that include the same name. This incident is enough evidence that Israel is not being rational and is out for blood nothing more or less.
Ladies and gentlemen we are about to witness WWIII and it is going be ugly.
If you corner a cat it will bound to scratch you back and these people are being cornered and believe me they will retaliate. As for when, god knows, but it's going to be ugly, really ugly.

 

[Famine]

I will make it as simple as possible. And I will say that before I proceed: Hezbollah will and have to disarm once the liberation of Lebanon is achieved, otherwise there will be another civil war.

Liberation? From what? Have they been under some yoke of some variety in the last 17 years?

But the main reason for this article is to see if the above mentioned group should be labeled as terrorists.

There is absolutely nothing that I can respond to the above sentence that sums up better than ROFLMAO WTF OMFG??!!!?!?!!!one.

I mean, you are kidding, right? "IF" Hezb'Allah, a group whose stated aim is the complete obliteration of Israel. is a terrorist group? IF?

In WWII France had a resistance movement that worked on destroying the Nazi army wherever they are in France, the same thing happened in Lebanon by Hezbollah yet we don't call them terrorists. George Washington fought in guerilla groups in order to drive British troops out, yet we do not call him a terrorist on the contrary we call him a founding father, but we dare calling Hezbollah a terrorist organization.
Why the double standards, as long as ones country is occupied by an enemy the people of that country have the right to resist the occupier, or are it that the French resistance are human beings and the Lebanese are not. Hezbollah is made of Lebanese people, not Iranians, not Syrians, only Lebanese yes they are supplied by these countries the same way George Washington was supplied by the French during his fighting and the other way around during WWII.

Let's.... do the math!

French Resistance: Country occupied by invading Nazi forces. Attempted to repulse and undermine occupying forces by targetting soldiers.
George Washington: Country occupied by ruling British forces. Attempted to expel and undermine occupying forces by targetting soldiers.
Hezb'Allah: Live in free state, with seats in parliament. Attempt to wipe out neighbouring country, whom it deems to not exist, by targetting CIVILIANS.

Nope. No differences there at all.

let's not hide and lie to each other, the reason Arabs are labeled as terrorists every now and then is because of there religious preference, it has been like that since the crusades and it will never change anytime soon.

Nope. The reason these "Arabs" are labelled as terrorists, and have been since the inception of the Israeli state, is because they refuse to recognise International laws marking Israel's existance as a state (while at the same time appealing to the international community when things don't go quite right for them) and, because the UN will never say "Oh right! Of course, we'll dismantle the Israeli state immediately!" take vigilante action against the Israeli state by KILLING CIVILIANS (on purpose).

Seriously, how can you not see that hiding in amongst "your people" and firing rockets at, and only at, civilians in a neighbouring country - or sanctioning and encouraging "martyring", where your "troops" walk into crowded bars and restaurants and blow themselves up, is terrorism? How can you possibly claim it's anti-Arab racism?

But what really bothers me is that when the Jews before becoming Israelis at the end of WWII went to Palestine and bought land and houses and then started killing the inhabitants of that country and terrorizing them in guerilla warfare style and then declared that country as Israel, yet we did not call them terrorists. Israel’s creation was based on terrorism, if you don't believe me look and ask around you will be choked with what you find out.

No.

Israel was not created by a bunch of people going in, buying land, killing the natives and calling themselves country. That's the USA.*

The British OWNED Israel - or rather they owned the land where Israel now is, along with the land where Jordan now is. They took it from the Ottoman Turks during WWI. They administered the area, with the assent of the League of Nations, until it was bisected to form Israel and Jordan BY the British and United Nations. This was covered earlier in the thread.

Britain and the UN created Israel, as they owned it. There was never an independant state of Palestine, EVER. To say that Israelis unilaterally created Israel from Palestine is fallacious in the extreme.

Oh but no Israelis are nice people that's what you will say

I doubt it - their response is disproportionate and "nice people" wouldn't mount a disproportionate response. They'd sit back and take the deliberate shelling of their civilian houses and cross-border infractions.

but I will dare to say that they are terrorists from the get go, and if this statement is considered slandering then I demand that this whole thread be shut down because Muslims and Arabs have been slandered through out this thread and through out the "off-topic" section of this website. I am a Muslim and my faith has been trampled on through out this whole thread.

Where? Find the slander (and it's libel - slander is spoken) against "Muslims and Arabs" and use the Report to Moderator button.

and I remained silent because I believe in the freedom of speech and expression

Puts you one up on Hezb'Allah then, who don't believe in the freedom to exist if you're "Zionist".

And going back to Qana ( in 1996 Israel bombed a U.N. outpost in Qana killing 100 people, and it is all documented, all of the 160 where civilians). Couldn’t they destroy that mobile rocket launcher that is situated in between the buildings which house civilians with a smaller rocket, a side winder for example?

A sidewinder is an AAM - air-to-air missile. It's launched from the air against aerial targets.

The only way to acheive the precision you're talking about is with a laser-guided glide bomb - but that requires ground-troops to "paint" the target with a laser for the bomb to get a fix on. And even then, they'll damage the buildings, probably to the point of collapse.

Much better to warn the civilians that they're going to hit targets in their area and to leave if they don't want to be hurt - which is again more than Hezb'Allah would do.

You know these mobile launchers are fixed on cars and trucks, how big of a missile do you have to use to destroy it....hold on wait, a bunker buster rocket should do the trick. Because truck and cars are called bunkers and we should use rockets that include the same name. This incident is enough evidence that Israel is not being rational and is out for blood nothing more or less.

Oh, you've seen "bunker-buster bombs" in the news.

Quick question. How much ordnance has Israel fired? How many bunker-busters do they have? Without specific answers to both questions (and the best I can do is "Lots" and "Not many") you cannot just assume that every single weapon they've fired against Hezb'Allah targets has been a bunker-buster.

And I'll cover the "out for blood" part in the very next line.

Ladies and gentlemen we are about to witness WWIII and it is going be ugly.

Hardly.

There's something (else) you don't seem to understand. Israel is a non-NPT-signatory nuclear superpower. Israel could, if it wanted and with absolutely no rebuke from anyone (just like South Korea, Pakistan and India, before you get any anti-Muslim, pro-Zionist ideas), just nuke Lebanon. And Iraq. And Iran. And Syria. And Egypt. And Jordan. And Turkey. And Saudi Arabia. And Kazakhstan. They could turn the whole of the Middle East into beaded glass with the amount of weapons they have. It'd be a very, very short WWIII - after all, the US ended WWII with nukes, so why not carry on where they left off? Nuclear weapons are a "first-strike" weapon now, after all.

Israel are not after blood. They're after the people who - even NOW, during a voluntary ceasefire - rocket their homes daily. If they were after blood, they'd just level Lebanon. And be under no illusions - if Hezb'Allah had access to nuclear weapons, they'd park one in Tel-Aviv, one in Haifa, one in Elat and one in Jerusalem.

If you corner a cat it will bound to scratch you back and these people are being cornered and believe me they will retaliate. As for when, god knows, but it's going to be ugly, really ugly.

If the cat scratches you every day for no apparent reason anyway, you'd take it to the vet and have the bastard neutered.


I'll ask you again. How is Israel to negotiate with Hezb'Allah and Hamas when the stated aim of these "organisations" is the complete obliteration of Israel?


*Satire.

 

[RallyF1]

Liberation? From what? Have they been under some yoke of some variety in the last 17 years?

israel envaded lebanon in the 80's going after the palestininnas who get kicked out of their land and came to lebanon and over stayed their visit, and because of the weak military power in lebanon did as they pleased including the launching of attacks from lebanon. they got rid of the palestinians and they became the annoying visitirs themselves, that's when Hizbullah emerged and that's when the first sucide bombing ever took place. they where fighting the agressors, and that's when they where recognized as a resistance movement. and because of them israel withdrew back after Sabra and shatilla masacre under ariel sharon's command, who have a pending lawsuit in belgium for being a war criminal.
instead of going all the way back to israel they stayed in lebanon under the excuse of a buffer zone. and all the way up to 2000 hizbullah where resisting them untill they drove them out. rockets fell into israel when israel striked with theire F16 Qana in 1996 is one of those incidents.

There is absolutely nothing that I can respond to the above sentence that sums up better than ROFLMAO WTF OMFG??!!!?!?!!!one.

I mean, you are kidding, right? "IF" Hezb'Allah, a group whose stated aim is the complete obliteration of Israel. is a terrorist group? IF?

stop repeating that same lame quote over and over again, anyone would vow for the obliteration of theire enemy. and i'm sure iraqis wish the same for the americans but that does not mean it will happen, and don't try to convince me that israel is so affraid of such a quote because if they are then they do not desrve the weapons they have, wait a minute, they are affraid of words which proves that they are more cowards than i imagined...interesting!!

Let's.... do the math!

French Resistance: Country occupied by invading Nazi forces. Attempted to repulse and undermine occupying forces by targetting soldiers.
George Washington: Country occupied by ruling British forces. Attempted to expel and undermine occupying forces by targetting soldiers.
Hezb'Allah: Live in free state, with seats in parliament. Attempt to wipe out neighbouring country, whom it deems to not exist, by targetting CIVILIANS.

Nope. No differences there at all.

let's do the math again.
hizbullah live in lebanon.
lebanon got occupied for 22 years.
hizbullah fight the israelis for 22 years trying to drive them out.
israel withdrew in 2000 but kept a small amount of land as an excuse to stay in war with lebanon and to jastify the killings that they will do when hizbullah trys to reclaim that land of " Mazaree Shibaa".
having your land still occupied by the enemy means that you have the right to resist.
througout the 22 years of occupation israel has claimed thousands of lebanese lives, are they accounted for them.
and here is another thing, if you have a country whose citizens are all inlisted in the army (ISRAEL), and that army is attacking your country and killing your non military residents doesn't that make attacking the army a fair game for the resistors. on the battle ground that's the way fighters think.

Nope. The reason these "Arabs" are labelled as terrorists, and have been since the inception of the Israeli state, is because they refuse to recognise International laws marking Israel's existance as a state (while at the same time appealing to the international community when things don't go quite right for them) and, because the UN will never say "Oh right! Of course, we'll dismantle the Israeli state immediately!" take vigilante action against the Israeli state by KILLING CIVILIANS (on purpose).

Seriously, how can you not see that hiding in amongst "your people" and firing rockets at, and only at, civilians in a neighbouring country - or sanctioning and encouraging "martyring", where your "troops" walk into crowded bars and restaurants and blow themselves up, is terrorism? How can you possibly claim it's anti-Arab racism?

my people!!! you just proved how uninformed you are. I'm an american, i chose Islam as my relegion does that make me an arab, hmmmm let's see i'm an american i chose hinduism as my relegion am i an indian now???? for the love of god.
and what about all the resolution that where never fulfilled by israel? oh it's o.k. PAPA America will veto anything that might upset baby israel. if it wasn't for the jewish loby and the greedy politicians who are being bought on a daily basis in washington israel would never had a chance but to stand up and listen like every body else.

No.

Israel was not created by a bunch of people going in, buying land, killing the natives and calling themselves country. That's the USA.*

The British OWNED Israel - or rather they owned the land where Israel now is, along with the land where Jordan now is. They took it from the Ottoman Turks during WWI. They administered the area, with the assent of the League of Nations, until it was bisected to form Israel and Jordan BY the British and United Nations. This was covered earlier in the thread.

Britain and the UN created Israel, as they owned it. There was never an independant state of Palestine, EVER. To say that Israelis unilaterally created Israel from Palestine is fallacious in the extreme.

yes israel was created by bunch of terrorists and here is one of the proofs and he was an israeli leader in the goverment wanted by the british during their occupation of palestine:
http://www.palestineremembered.com/images/IsraeliJewishTerroristsWanted.html
and here is the article where it came from:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=52427

britain never owned palestine, britian oocupied palestine after the fall of the ottoman empire, this is called history.

I doubt it - their response is disproportionate and "nice people" wouldn't mount a disproportionate response. They'd sit back and take the deliberate shelling of their civilian houses and cross-border infractions.



Where? Find the slander (and it's libel - slander is spoken) against "Muslims and Arabs" and use the Report to Moderator button.

Puts you one up on Hezb'Allah then, who don't believe in the freedom to exist if you're "Zionist".

A sidewinder is an AAM - air-to-air missile. It's launched from the air against aerial targets.

The only way to acheive the precision you're talking about is with a laser-guided glide bomb - but that requires ground-troops to "paint" the target with a laser for the bomb to get a fix on. And even then, they'll damage the buildings, probably to the point of collapse.

Much better to warn the civilians that they're going to hit targets in their area and to leave if they don't want to be hurt - which is again more than Hezb'Allah would do.

excuse my weak military knowlege, i'm not that obssesed with killing to know what each rocket does or missle but what i do know is that a smaller bomb could have done the job of blowing up a truck it doesn't have to bee a 500 megaton or whatever the term is for what they droped to take out a truck, a pickup, even if it was a tank a much smaller weapon could have done the job. but no we have to use big weapons for shocj and awe, for gods sake listen to yourselves are we in a movie theater... this kind of child talk never worked on the iraqis and look what they did to the american troops do you think it will work on war hardened hizbullah, yes they where surprised of the aggresive and sensless retaliation but they did not run into the corner!

Oh, you've seen "bunker-buster bombs" in the news.

Quick question. How much ordnance has Israel fired? How many bunker-busters do they have? Without specific answers to both questions (and the best I can do is "Lots" and "Not many") you cannot just assume that every single weapon they've fired against Hezb'Allah targets has been a bunker-buster.

And I'll cover the "out for blood" part in the very next line.

Hardly.

There's something (else) you don't seem to understand. Israel is a non-NPT-signatory nuclear superpower. Israel could, if it wanted and with absolutely no rebuke from anyone (just like South Korea, Pakistan and India, before you get any anti-Muslim, pro-Zionist ideas), just nuke Lebanon. And Iraq. And Iran. And Syria. And Egypt. And Jordan. And Turkey. And Saudi Arabia. And Kazakhstan. They could turn the whole of the Middle East into beaded glass with the amount of weapons they have. It'd be a very, very short WWIII - after all, the US ended WWII with nukes, so why not carry on where they left off? Nuclear weapons are a "first-strike" weapon now, after all.

Israel are not after blood. They're after the people who - even NOW, during a voluntary ceasefire - rocket their homes daily. If they were after blood, they'd just level Lebanon. And be under no illusions - if Hezb'Allah had access to nuclear weapons, they'd park one in Tel-Aviv, one in Haifa, one in Elat and one in Jerusalem.

on the contrary my friend, israel does have nuclear power and using it will never happen without american permision. the same goes for this war, the bush administartion gave the green light for the carnage, and why wouldn't they, israel gets paid for every head they have 2000.00$ every month (break down the billions that israel get from the U.S. and you get the 2000.00$ number)
and nuclear weopens will be deployed soon enough after all W. Bush was made president by God and he is here to fulfill gods profecies, armagedon.
no matter how we try America and israel are in this together.

If the cat scratches you every day for no apparent reason anyway, you'd take it to the vet and have the bastard neutered.


I'll ask you again. How is Israel to negotiate with Hezb'Allah and Hamas when the stated aim of these "organisations" is the complete obliteration of Israel?


*Satire.

israel negotiated before with hizbullah and hamas, maybe not directly, but they do comunicate and they have done it manu many times before during prosoner exchanges why not now, or are theytoo good now to do it. the answer lies within an unexperienced israeli prime minister!!

 

[Famine]

I just had to edit your post to get the quote nesting tidy. On with the show:

stop repeating that same lame quote over and over again, anyone would vow for the obliteration of theire enemy. and i'm sure iraqis wish the same for the americans but that does not mean it will happen, and don't try to convince me that israel is so affraid of such a quote because if they are then they do not desrve the weapons they have, wait a minute, they are affraid of words which proves that they are more cowards than i imagined...interesting!!

Why is the quote lame? It is their stated aim. They do not believe that Israel has a right to exist and they do not believe that Israelis have a right to live. Do you not know what "obliteration" means? They want every Israeli dead. Every one of them.

What this has to do with Israel and fear I don't know. What it DOES show is that they will target anyone and everyone in a completely different country because they do not see them as human.

This renders your French Resistance/George Washington comparison pseudologous. Both examples fought military bodies inside their own country. Hezb'Allah target anyone, including civilians, in a different country. They ARE terrorists.

let's do the math again.
hizbullah live in lebanon.
lebanon got occupied for 22 years.
hizbullah fight the israelis for 22 years trying to drive them out.
israel withdrew in 2000 but kept a small amount of land as an excuse to stay in war with lebanon and to jastify the killings that they will do when hizbullah trys to reclaim that land of " Mazaree Shibaa".
having your land still occupied by the enemy means that you have the right to resist.
througout the 22 years of occupation israel has claimed thousands of lebanese lives, are they accounted for them.
and here is another thing, if you have a country whose citizens are all inlisted in the army (ISRAEL), and that army is attacking your country and killing your non military residents doesn't that make attacking the army a fair game for the resistors. on the battle ground that's the way fighters think.

Attacking army, yes. Their families back home, no.

And Hezb'Allah aren't supposed to "live" in Lebanon. Lebanon agreed to disband them. They haven't managed that, in 17 years of not trying in any way, but have instead taken them into government.

my people!!! you just proved how uninformed you are. I'm an american, i chose Islam as my relegion does that make me an arab, hmmmm let's see i'm an american i chose hinduism as my relegion am i an indian now???? for the love of god.

You misread. I didn't say Lebanese were your people. The quote, without reference to Lebanon or any other country or people, was:

Seriously, how can you not see that hiding in amongst "your people" and firing rockets at, and only at, civilians in a neighbouring country - or sanctioning and encouraging "martyring", where your "troops" walk into crowded bars and restaurants and blow themselves up, is terrorism?

This applies to ANYONE, not just Hezb'Allah.

Hezb'Allah claim that the Lebanese are their people, yet put them directly in danger by hiding in amongst, and carrying out operations from within, those same people, using them as human shields.


I note you didn't answer the question either. How is that NOT terrorism? How can you possibly claim that it is solely anti-Arab bias and Hezb'Allah aren't terrorists?

and what about all the resolution that where never fulfilled by israel? oh it's o.k. PAPA America will veto anything that might upset baby israel. if it wasn't for the jewish loby and the greedy politicians who are being bought on a daily basis in washington israel would never had a chance but to stand up and listen like every body else.

Heresay presented as fact. Prove anything you just said.

yes israel was created by bunch of terrorists and here is one of the proofs and he was an israeli leader in the goverment wanted by the british during their occupation of palestine:
http://www.palestineremembered.com/images/IsraeliJewishTerroristsWanted.html
and here is the article where it came from:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=52427

britain never owned palestine, britian oocupied palestine after the fall of the ottoman empire, this is called history.

I already posted the whole history of the region in this thread. Go back and read it.

Palestine has never existed as an independant state.
Britain didn't occupy the area "after the fall of the ottoman empire" - they TOOK it from the Ottomans during World War I. This is called ownership.
Britain admininstered the area under mandate from the League of Nations.
Britain gave the territory back to the United Nations after World War II, when it was divided into Israel and Jordan.

excuse my weak military knowlege, i'm not that obssesed with killing to know what each rocket does or missle

Though you will happily refer to a Sidewinder by name...

but what i do know is that a smaller bomb could have done the job of blowing up a truck it doesn't have to bee a 500 megaton or whatever the term is for what they droped to take out a truck, a pickup, even if it was a tank a much smaller weapon could have done the job. but no we have to use big weapons for shocj and awe, for gods sake listen to yourselves are we in a movie theater... this kind of child talk never worked on the iraqis and look what they did to the american troops do you think it will work on war hardened hizbullah, yes they where surprised of the aggresive and sensless retaliation but they did not run into the corner!

500 megatons?! Hiroshima was only 15 kilotons! Conventional bombs are little more than 500lb of explosive.

Anyway, did you read anything I just posted about laser-guided glide bombs?

The only way to achieve what you're talking about is with ground troops. Ground troops = military risk when you have aircraft. Sending in ground troops before you've disabled your enemy is tactically inept.

This never worked on the Iraqis? You mean the Iraqis who the Coalition beat into a pulp and captured their leaders? Or are you talking about the Al Qa'ida cells left in Iraq?

on the contrary my friend, israel does have nuclear power and using it will never happen without american permision.

Israel is not signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and is not a member of NATO. Israel requires NO permission from any other state or body to use its nuclear arsenal. If it just "wants blood", they'd drop enough nukes that you could skate to Turkey on a solid sheet of glass.

The UK does though.

the same goes for this war, the bush administartion gave the green light for the carnage

Absolute hogwash. And you talk about "slander" (sic)!

Prove that comment as well.

israel negotiated before with hizbullah and hamas, maybe not directly, but they do comunicate and they have done it manu many times before during prosoner exchanges why not now, or are theytoo good now to do it. the answer lies within an unexperienced israeli prime minister!!

Nope. Hezb'Allah negiotiate when Israel has something they want. Right now, Hezb'Allah has something Israel wants.

And Hezb'Allah have, and I say for what seems like the 7th or 8th time in this thread, rejected all overtures for a ceasefire "on Zion's terms" as "humiliating".

So you're proposing that Israel negotiate with a group who wants all Israelis to die, will not recognise the Israeli state and will not agree to any ceasefire? If only you were out there - the Middle East peace process would have been settled 30 years ago.

 

[ledhed]

He doesnt even know the history of Hezbollah...but defends them. Iran formed and armed the and sent them to lebanon in 1982 . They are and always have been a terrorist organization .

 

[Solid Lifters]

It is seen as a terrorist organization by only three countries, USA, Canada and Israel. However, though The United Kingdom, Netherlands and Australia do not consider Hezbollah itself to be a terrorist group, they do list the Hezballah External Security Organization (ESO) as terrorist. Other countries that don't recognize Hezbollah or the ESO as terrorist, do recognize certain members as terrorists.

But, can anybody legitimately deny Hezbollah are a terrorist organization when they make continuous statements like, "It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth."

Nope, they can't.

 

[Danoff]

WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP!!! "I'm deeply saddened by the terrible loss of innocent life..." she says as the bombs are STILL being shipped to Israel. Airport handles more US flights. (BBC) (UK anger over US bomb flights (Aljazeera.net))Who is she trying to convince with her mock show of sadness?

Don't believe Condi Rice, believe Aljazeera.

Condi can be saddened, as am I, as are the Israelis (they have publicly stated), by the loss of civilian life during the airstrike, and believe that the only way to prevent additional loss of life is for Israel to wipe out the terrorist organization Hezbollah completely. Ex-President Bill Clinton has stated that if he were younger and fitter he'd be in the trenches fighting alongside Israel in this conflict (which I think is interesting since he was one of so many who refused to fight for America back in his day).

I personally hate that so many civilians had to die, but I place the blame for their deaths squarely where it belongs. With Israel? The ones who dropped the bomb? No no no. I place it with the terrorists who cowardly refuse to launch missiles at Israeli citizens until they're protected by a building full of human sheilds - the more children the better.

It's utterly disgusting and strengthens my support for Israel. Hezbollah killed those people, not Israel. If you attack someone from within a crowd of innocent people YOU are the one who puts them at risk KNOWING FULL WELL that you're going to get retaliated against.

Israel CANNOT simply allow Hezbollah to succeed at using their own sense of decency against them. If Israel cannot stomach the civilian loss because Hezbollah hides among them, every single outnumbered or outgunned organization with out a shred of decency will use that tactic in the future . In short, by claiming a cease fire is necessary now, you're saying to Hezbollah that the right thing to do, the thing that gets results, is to launch rockets at Israeli citizens while using human shields /

I don't like to make this claim. I hesitate to say it even now. I never made the claim during the Iraq war, but I make it now. The global outcry in the wake of the civilian casualties aids the terrorists. You aid the terrorists. Everyone who says that Israel should stop going after the terrorists because the terrorists tactics are too barbarous is aiding the terrorists.

I don't know how many lives you yourself, magburner (or Rally), are responsible for killing. Maybe none as of yet. But your encouragement of this kind of tactic (by claiming that Israel should bow to it), is only going to cost lives. Continue on your current path and you can be certain that you're encouraging the deaths of innocent people simply by speaking out.

The UN agrees with me.

http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=072706E

In a separate motion, the world body also passed a non-binding "sense of the UN" resolution expressing disapproval of CNN, the BBC, al Jazeera and several other media organizations "whose disproportionate emphasis in favor of terror groups substantially contributes to their ability to make civilians into sacrificial cannon fodder."

There can be no agreement with people who use these tactics. Hiding among civilians CANNOT lead to cowardice on the side of the Israelis or they'll be condemning to death future innocents.

 

[magburner]

The UN agrees with me.

http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=072706E

There can be no agreement with people who use these tactics. Hiding among civilians CANNOT lead to cowardice on the side of the Israelis or they'll be condemning to death future innocents.

Please tell me your joking right...? The moment I started reading that article, I thought something didn't quite ring true - There where too many glowing statements. It took me a while to figure out what it was, but then it hit me square in the face!

NEW YORK (SATIRENEWSSERVICE) --

Do you see what I see? Let me make it a little easier for you, NEW YORK (SATIRE-NEWS-SERVICE). Is this what you back your arguments up with? Your reference isn't fact, its comedy!

Take another look yourself: TCS Daily

There is a forum for this kind of stuff yunno... The Comedy Corner

 

[Danoff]

Do you see what I see? Let me make it a little easier for you, NEW YORK (SATIRE-NEWS-SERVICE). Is this what you back your arguments up with? Your reference isn't fact, its comedy!

No, I did not see that.

Take another look yourself: TCS Daily

Yup.

There is a forum for this kind of stuff yunno... The Comedy Corner

...and I guess I belong there for having fallen for a practical joke.


But I meant what I said about the blood of innocents partially being on your hands. Granted, it's hilarious that I feel for a joke news article on a serious news site. In my defense, I was sent the article by someone else who believed it, and sent that quote specifically. I proceeded to do perhaps the dumbest thing I could have by not reading the article, only sticking with the quote - which I find entirely plausible and believable, not funny in any way.

Now, when you're finished laughing, respond to my points (all of which are still valid... except for the bit about the UN agreeing with me).

 

[magburner]

Now, when you're finished laughing, respond to my points (all of which are still valid... except for the bit about the UN agreeing with me).

I won't make anymore out of this. Your a good sport danoff. 👍 Ok, On with the show...

Don't believe Condi Rice, believe Aljazeera.

Aljazeera had nothing to do with it. I saw her speak in a news conference on the BBC.

Condi can be saddened, as am I, as are the Israelis (they have publicly stated), by the loss of civilian life during the airstrike, and believe that the only way to prevent additional loss of life is for Israel to wipe out the terrorist organization Hezbollah completely.

Agreed, except that: 'Israel couldn't hit a cow in the fanny with a bag of rice' - the civillian death toll is proof of this. Anyway, if Israel where hitting Hezbollah as hard as they claim, then why are we not seeing proof of it on the news? I can remember be bombarded with 'deathcams' when America launched it 'shock and awe' campaign against Iraq. If Israel had (as they claim) destroyed 50% of Hezbollahs weaponry, why is there so little video or photgraphic proof? The truth of the matter is that Israel's military offensive has neither focus nor accuracy.

Ex-President Bill Clinton has stated that if he were younger and fitter he'd be in the trenches fighting alongside Israel in this conflict (which I think is interesting since he was one of so many who refused to fight for America back in his day).

I've heard stories contrary to this. In fact, I was reading the Daily Mirror today in work, and noticed a graphic the paper had knocked up. on the left there were renowned world dignitaries, united in calling for a ceasefire, and on the right, ther was Tony and George on their lonesome. Bill Clinton was one of those on the left who was calling for a ceasefire. If you have proof of what you say, please post a link.

I personally hate that so many civilians had to die, but I place the blame for their deaths squarely where it belongs. With Israel? The ones who dropped the bomb? No no no. I place it with the terrorists who cowardly refuse to launch missiles at Israeli citizens until they're protected by a building full of human sheilds - the more children the better.

Why the sudden change of heart man? Up until this post, you have always been very 'matter of fact' about the conflict and particularly the civillian losses. Infact, it had annoyed me greatly, because you have not appeared to show any feelings for the loss of life, until now. Why?

Israel CANNOT simply allow Hezbollah to succeed at using their own sense of decency against them. If Israel cannot stomach the civilian loss because Hezbollah hides among them, every single outnumbered or outgunned organization with out a shred of decency will use that tactic in the future . In short, by claiming a cease fire is necessary now, you're saying to Hezbollah that the right thing to do, the thing that gets results, is to launch rockets at Israeli citizens while using human shields

I'm not disputing the fact that Hezbollah uses humans as shields, if there was reckage of rocket launchers scattered amongst the dead bodies of women and children, then I would still disagree, but I could just about stomach the carnage. The fact is, the so called 'human shields' are never anywhere near Hezbollah rocket launchers when the Israeli's stirke. If I'm mistaken, prove it.

Hezbollah is using second or third world weaponry, and it deliberately targetting civillians, but the death toll in Israel is light, despite the heavy barrages it launches every day. On the other hand, the IDF has cutting edge military equipment, and supposedly 'prescision' ordnance, and they are not apparently targetting civillians, but the death toll from Israeli strikes is almost 30 times higher. Now you tell me, who is being indiscriminate?

I don't like to make this claim. I hesitate to say it even now. I never made the claim during the Iraq war, but I make it now. The global outcry in the wake of the civilian casualties aids the terrorists. You aid the terrorists. Everyone who says that Israel should stop going after the terrorists because the terrorists tactics are too barbarous is aiding the terrorists.

I can't believe that you would suggest that we turn a blind eye at Israeli attrocities, and give our full backing to Israel. The world outcry over the indiscriminate bombing in Qana is justified.

Anyway, you got it wrong, the masacre of women and children aids the terrorists. If the terrorists are looking for ammunition, they are not going to get it from world opinion. Attacks on innocents is enough. America's, and the UK's unwaivering support for Israel is enough. Hell, the whole war on terror is enough. I want Israel to destroy the terrorists, but not if it comes with a massive civillian death toll.

I don't know how many lives you yourself, magburner (or Rally), are responsible for killing. Maybe none as of yet. But your encouragement of this kind of tactic (by claiming that Israel should bow to it), is only going to cost lives. Continue on your current path and you can be certain that you're encouraging the deaths of innocent people simply by speaking out.

WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP! I'm sorry I had to say that. I'm not responsible for endangering or killing anyone. My stance is strictly anti-war, pro-life, and one of compromise.

If you support the war on terror, then we all know exaclty how many lives you are responsible for. The tens of thousands dead, and the daily car bombing in Iraq, the resurgence of the Taliban in Afghanistan, the indisciminate airstrikes by Israel, the 37 children killed on sunday. If you support the war on terror, you are responsible for those deaths.

I'm not claiming that Israel should bow to Hezbollah, I'm demanding that they only kill terrorists. Its been 19 days now, and Hezbollah, are no weaker than the first day of the crisis. Infact, the attacks have been increasing! Its safe to say, that the Israeli military offensive has been a resounding failiure. There have been nearly 600 Lebanese civillian fatalities, many of them children, and your telling me that I'm encouraging the deaths of innocent people? Come on now!

 

[Danoff]

Aljazeera had nothing to do with it. I saw her speak in a news conference on the BBC.

You read Aljazeera right?

Agreed, except that: 'Israel couldn't hit a cow in the fanny with a bag of rice' - the civillian death toll is proof of this.

Is it? Given the amount of destruction going on over there, the number of buildings, bridges, powerstations, etc. that have been hit, I think the death toll is proof that Israel is not targetting civilians.

You're think they're just a bad aim, but it's difficult to hit your target without hitting civilians when your target hides behind civilians at all times. You don't even know how many of these "civilians" are in fact civilians. Let alone how far they were from the terrorists.

Anyway, if Israel where hitting Hezbollah as hard as they claim, then why are we not seeing proof of it on the news?

What exactly are you looking for? A dead guy with a suicide belt on in the middle of a bomb crater?

I can remember be bombarded with 'deathcams' when America launched it 'shock and awe' campaign against Iraq. If Israel had (as they claim) destroyed 50% of Hezbollahs weaponry, why is there so little video or photgraphic proof? The truth of the matter is that Israel's military offensive has neither focus nor accuracy.

You've made this mistake several times, so allow me to correct you (hopefully for the last time). Israel is NOT America.

Bill Clinton was one of those on the left who was calling for a ceasefire. If you have proof of what you say, please post a link.

Looked it up. The actual quote is that if Israel were attacked during HIS presidency he'd grab a gun and fought with them.

Why the sudden change of heart man? Up until this post, you have always been very 'matter of fact' about the conflict and particularly the civillian losses. Infact, it had annoyed me greatly, because you have not appeared to show any feelings for the loss of life, until now. Why?

I don't tend to discuss issues like this on an emotional level. It's not until someone makes a ridiculous claim - like saying that Condi is faking when she says she mourns the loss of innocents - that I'm willing to dive in.

I'm not disputing the fact that Hezbollah uses humans as shields, if there was reckage of rocket launchers scattered amongst the dead bodies of women and children, then I would still disagree, but I could just about stomach the carnage. The fact is, the so called 'human shields' are never anywhere near Hezbollah rocket launchers when the Israeli's stirke. If I'm mistaken, prove it.

Oh I see. Then why is it that EVERYTHING I've been reading and seeing on television has said that the Israelis return fire directly to locations of rocket attacks. The Israelis have admitted that the latest accident was a mistaken target, but maintain that the actual target was a nearby building.

Hezbollah is using second or third world weaponry, and it deliberately targetting civillians, but the death toll in Israel is light, despite the heavy barrages it launches every day.

Crappy weapons = light casualties.

On the other hand, the IDF has cutting edge military equipment, and supposedly 'prescision' ordnance, and they are not apparently targetting civillians, but the death toll from Israeli strikes is almost 30 times higher. Now you tell me, who is being indiscriminate?

Newer weapons = Bigger boom = more difficult to prevent collateral damage.

I can't believe that you would suggest that we turn a blind eye at Israeli attrocities, and give our full backing to Israel. The world outcry over the indiscriminate bombing in Qana is justified.

Indiscriminate? As in Israel doesn't care who they're bombing? That's a big statement, would you care to back that up? You're claiming that Israel and the terrorists have the same tactics and goals.

Anyway, you got it wrong, the masacre of women and children aids the terrorists. If the terrorists are looking for ammunition, they are not going to get it from world opinion. Attacks on innocents is enough. America's, and the UK's unwaivering support for Israel is enough. Hell, the whole war on terror is enough. I want Israel to destroy the terrorists, but not if it comes with a massive civillian death toll.

If Israel is pressured to appease the terrorists by world opinion, they will be signing the death warrants of countless future terrorism victims and sanction decades of terrorists using human shields as a legitimate means of acheiving their goals.

WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP! I'm sorry I had to say that. I'm not responsible for endangering or killing anyone. My stance is strictly anti-war, pro-life, and one of compromise.

Your stance is pro-death and appeasement. You're one for negotiating with terrorists - a stand that will result in death. Appeasing the terrorists now is the same thing as telling them they can get what they want if they simply use human shields and launch rockets randomly into Israel. War can save lives, I know you don't understand that but it is true.

If you support the war on terror, then we all know exaclty how many lives you are responsible for. The tens of thousands dead, and the daily car bombing in Iraq, the resurgence of the Taliban in Afghanistan, the indisciminate airstrikes by Israel, the 37 children killed on sunday. If you support the war on terror, you are responsible for those deaths.

The Israeli airstrikes are far from indiscriminate. And I'm fully aware of how many deaths I've supported. I'm aware of the collateral damage in the Iraqi war I support. I don't have a problem with that because I'm aware of the justifications for action. You, on the otherhand, are supporting the death of innocents BY TERRORISTS. I'd find that quite a bit more difficult to get behind.

I'm not claiming that Israel should bow to Hezbollah, I'm demanding that they only kill terrorists.

Not possible.

Its been 19 days now, and Hezbollah, are no weaker than the first day of the crisis. Infact, the attacks have been increasing! Its safe to say, that the Israeli military offensive has been a resounding failiure.

It most certainly is not safe to say that. 19 days is nothing, and you don't know how seriously the terrorists have been weakend. Increasing attacks is not an indication of increasing strength. It may be an indication that hezbollah have mobilized to meet the threat and finally have brought the remainder of their full force to bear. Or perhaps they're getting weapons at a faster rate. Or perhaps they've spread their ranks thinner to achieve wider coverage. Or perhaps, as you suggest, they've gain support. Which is fine, those people can die as well.

There have been nearly 600 Lebanese civillian fatalities, many of them children, and your telling me that I'm encouraging the deaths of innocent people? Come on now!

Yes. You are. By advocating that Israel allow their own sense of decency to be used against them and appease the terrorists.

 

[Swift]

I'm not disputing the fact that Hezbollah uses humans as shields, if there was reckage of rocket launchers scattered amongst the dead bodies of women and children, then I would still disagree, but I could just about stomach the carnage. The fact is, the so called 'human shields' are never anywhere near Hezbollah rocket launchers when the Israeli's stirke. If I'm mistaken, prove it.

Prove the adults aren't part of Hezbolah.

Hezbollah is using second or third world weaponry, and it deliberately targetting civillians, but the death toll in Israel is light, despite the heavy barrages it launches every day. On the other hand, the IDF has cutting edge military equipment, and supposedly 'prescision' ordnance, and they are not apparently targetting civillians, but the death toll from Israeli strikes is almost 30 times higher. Now you tell me, who is being indiscriminate?

Israelis listened to the government and "got outta dodge". The Lebanese have either decided to stay or are being forced to stay by Hezbolah.

Anyway, you got it wrong, the masacre of women and children aids the terrorists. If the terrorists are looking for ammunition, they are not going to get it from world opinion. Attacks on innocents is enough. America's, and the UK's unwaivering support for Israel is enough. Hell, the whole war on terror is enough. I want Israel to destroy the terrorists, but not if it comes with a massive civillian death toll.

Do you know of any war or battle for that matter without collateral damage? WHo started the aggression in an indiscriminate fashion anyway? Oh, that's right, the Hezbolah. My fault. The way you were talking it would almost seem like the Israeli's started this particular conflict.

WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP! I'm sorry I had to say that. I'm not responsible for endangering or killing anyone. My stance is strictly anti-war, pro-life, and one of compromise.

You can't comprimise with those that don't consider you to be a human being.

If you support the war on terror, then we all know exaclty how many lives you are responsible for. The tens of thousands dead, and the daily car bombing in Iraq, the resurgence of the Taliban in Afghanistan, the indisciminate airstrikes by Israel, the 37 children killed on sunday. If you support the war on terror, you are responsible for those deaths.

Yes, death is bad. But unfortunately, it's the ONLY thing the islamic militants understand.

I'm not claiming that Israel should bow to Hezbollah, I'm demanding that they only kill terrorists. Its been 19 days now, and Hezbollah, are no weaker than the first day of the crisis. Infact, the attacks have been increasing! Its safe to say, that the Israeli military offensive has been a resounding failiure. There have been nearly 600 Lebanese civillian fatalities, many of them children, and your telling me that I'm encouraging the deaths of innocent people? Come on now!

Danoff said this already, but yes you are. It's truly sad that there are a number of lebanese civilians dead. But as Famine spelled out so well a few pages back, this all goes back to the Lebanese government NOT getting rid of Hezbolah as they agreed to.

Also, don't claim to know the exact number or even an estimate of dead "civilians" because it's impossible at this point in the conflict.

 

[Kylehnat]

It must be understood that ANY AND ALL "negotiating" with terrorist organizations is unacceptable. If they make a demand, all costs must be taken to avoid meeting it. As soon as one terrorist gets what he wants, ten others will resort to terrorism to get what they want. This is not hard to understand, yet many cannot see it.