Israel and Lebanon

[RallyF1]

Ok, right there. I'm done listening to you. Because you would like to become what you hate! How can you hate something that you want to be? That's the definition of being a hypocrite. Actually, I find it rather sad. "Rich people are bad...until I am one. Then they are ok"

Delirious XVII, you're right on target.

why are you always on the offensive, it was to ment ot be a joke. chill out man, and put down that coffee mug.

 

[Swift]

why are you always on the offensive, it was to ment ot be a joke. chill out man, and put down that coffee mug.

Actually, I'm just making an observation. It's neither offensive or defensive since you weren't responding to one of my posts.

You can't tell a joke very well at all. Infact, that entire paragraph sounds like your argument from the past few pages. Try using smilies, they tend to help with showing sarcasm and jokes.

Please, do me a favor, look at your post and you tell me how that's supposed to be taken as a joke as is.

 

[FoolKiller]

smallest example are cell phone bills, fee that and feethis on your bill and you end up paying a fee bill not a phone bill.

Blame that on government and not the cell phone companies. Almost every fee is actually a tax of some form imposed by the government on you for having a phone or it was a tax given to the company who just passed it on to you, but by law they have to make it known that is what it is instead of just raising rates.

Did you know that up until this past May we were still paying for the Spanish American War?

Sorry for the off-topicness, but I just wanted to explain the phone bill fees so you can hate government and stop blaming Cingular, or whoever.

Carry on with the Jew bashing.

<Must refrain from Mel Gibson jokes>

 

[Swift]

Blame that on government and not the cell phone companies. Almost every fee is actually a tax of some form imposed by the government on you for having a phone or it was a tax given to the company who just passed it on to you, but by law they have to make it known that is what it is instead of just raising rates.

Did you know that up until this past May we were still paying for the Spanish American War?

Sorry for the off-topicness, but I just wanted to explain the phone bill fees so you can hate government and stop blaming Cingular, or whoever.

Carry on with the Jew bashing.

<Must refrain from Mel Gibson jokes>

FK, while you're quite right, it was all a joke. So, you know wer missed that joke.

 

[Delirious]

...so if a country is an underdog, does that still make it right what they are doing?

Oh, I could be the underdog and say I'm going to be the next Michael Jordan, but THAT WON'T HAPPEN!

Just because someone is an underdog, that in itself for reasoning is...just absurd.

What's the problem with the US supporting Israel? What is the real problem doing that? Why shouldn't we support Israel??

 

[magburner]

My goodness...magburner, rallyF1, AND ESPECIALLY KSaiyu...do you guys not get what say...Famine and Swift are trying to say (Among others)?

Simple...don't mess with Israel.

Problem solved, right?

You mess with Isarel, you are going to be in for a world of hurt.

World History shows that.

If Lebanon didn't start any of this with Isarel, there would be no problems with them two in conflict.

Lebanon messed with Israel, Israel's natural response...fight back.

They won't take crap from anyone.

Is that simple enough for you guys to understand who seemingly not be able to understand??

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.... I have no problem with the reasons, it the methods I find unacceptable. I stated early on in this thread that Israel had the right to 'defend its borders', did you not see that?

 

[Delirious]

I got tired once I got to the third page and really started to skim through it.

I guess I'm not one of those university-intellectual peoples...but as you can probably tell, I am strong in what I believe in for whats right and wrong...

 

[Swift]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.... I have no problem with the reasons, it the methods I find unacceptable. I stated early on in this thread that Israel had the right to 'defend its borders', did you not see that?

Aye, we all did. But at the same time, we're all waiting for what your solution would have been to the problem.

 

[magburner]

Aye, we all did. But at the same time, we're all waiting for what your solution would have been to the problem.

Hey! I'm honoured you've all been waiting for me.

What is my solution? I haven't really got one, but anything is better than the current debacle. Israel's offensive in Lebanon has done little if anything to stop the rocket attacks. Infact, the attacks are increasing, and they are getting further inside Israel, one even landed in the West Bank today! This ill thoughtout campaign has show the Israeli military to be totally incompetant.

Look at the facts. All Israel have to show are hundreds of dead civillians, massive damage to the infrastructure of Lebanon, a growing humanitarian crisis, an ecological disaster, and a terrorist organisation that is still capable of firing rockets into Israel at will. I could stomach the conflict if I could see proof that anything other than civillians were being hit, but there seems to no evidence anywhere - not even in Jewish newspapers - There is plenty of speculation, but no actual proof of anything at all.

The sad truth is, that this conflict has been raging for almost three weeks now, and Israel is no nearer destroying Hezbollah than the first day. Its been reported that they need another two weeks to finish what they have to do, the way things are progressing, its going to take a hell of a lot longer!

 

[Swift]

Hey! I'm honoured you've all been waiting for me.

What is my solution? I haven't really got one, but anything is better than the current debacle. I

This is why your opinion and Ksayiu's is weak and unfounded. Israel could've just used a few fuel-to-Air bombs on Southern Lebanon and wiped them all out without thinking twice. That would've been much worse.

Do us all a favor please, if you don't have an answer to a question, don't condem those that did make a decesion in order to answer a question.

Did you see my runner's example?

How can you call someone else "wrong" when you're not even remotely sure what is "right". That's like going to an athlete and saying, "You're running in really bad form", they reply, "Ok, how could I run better?", you say, "I don't know. I just know that what you're doing now is wrong." Obviously, that person is NOT going to consider anything you say because your critique is without any substance.

Look at the facts. All Israel have to show are hundreds of dead civillians, massive damage to the infrastructure of Lebanon, a growing humanitarian crisis, an ecological disaster, and a terrorist organisation that is still capable of firing rockets into Israel at will. I could stomach the conflict if I could see proof that anything other than civillians were being hit, but there seems to no evidence anywhere - not even in Jewish newspapers - There is plenty of speculation, but no actual proof of anything at all.

For the last time. Tell me how to tell a dead Hezbolah terrorist(that we all know dresses in civilian clothes all the time) and a dead civilian? Outside of children(even they are being used by terrorists now) how can you tell right off the bat?

I say that Israel's attacks are being effective. Why? Because if Hezbollah had the strength to actually fight Israel they would've mobilized by now. Hezbollah got caught trying to be cool and they've forced Lebanon to pay the price. Not fair to the lebanese people, but more then fair to the Lebanese government.

 

[Danoff]

It's hard to hit terrorists without hitting civilians when they make their base of operations at a hospital.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/02/mideast.main/index.html

 

[ledhed]

Anderson cooper CNN ....he cant believe that the Hezbollah are so openly anti semitic....ummm ok....what woke you up dork head...if they were SECRETLY anti semites would you support them MORE


WTF is wrong here ?

 

[magburner]

Do us all a favor please, if you don't have an answer to a question, don't condem those that did make a decesion in order to answer a question.

There are always answers and solutions to every situation. Looking at the bigger picture - not just this current crisis, but the ongoing battle of ideologies; I can see that there are only two black and white conclusions to the problem. Either Israel goes, or the majority of the Middle East goes. which would you choose?

It's obviously unacceptable to call for the removal of Israel, so we continue doing something equally unacceptable - destroying any Middle Eastern country that threatens Israel. Since every muslim is a potential extremist, and this conflict is creating more - We should be concentrating on removing the causes of extremism, not the extremists themselves.

For the last time. Tell me how to tell a dead Hezbolah terrorist(that we all know dresses in civilian clothes all the time) and a dead civilian? Outside of children(even they are being used by terrorists now) how can you tell right off the bat?

You tell me? All casualties must be assumed to be innocent civillians unless proven otherwise.

I say that Israel's attacks are being effective. Why? Because if Hezbollah had the strength to actually fight Israel they would've mobilized by now. Hezbollah got caught trying to be cool and they've forced Lebanon to pay the price. Not fair to the lebanese people, but more then fair to the Lebanese government.

I don't care how many terrorist are killed, I don't even care how many Israeli soldiers are killed, what I care about is the innocents on both sides that are caught in the middle. I'm leaning more towards the side of the Lebanese since thier country has suffered heavily. If Israel had took the pounding Lebanon had, I would be leaning more towards them.

 

[Danoff]

I'm leaning more towards the side of the Lebanese since thier country has suffered heavily. If Israel had took the pounding Lebanon had, I would be leaning more towards them.

Of course that has nothing to do with moral superiority or the justifications of the cause... but whatever... that stuff's not important. All that matters is who is taking it the hardest.

 

[Famine]

You tell me? All casualties must be assumed to be innocent civillians unless proven otherwise.

I pointed out earlier that this doesn't make sense.

If I blew up a building in the middle of London, you'd probably assume that all casualties are innocent civilians unless proven otherwise. If I blew up a building in the middle of London, and it was Battersea Dog Home, you'd have to assume that all casualties are dogs, unless proven otherwise.

Similarly, if Israel were aiming just at blocks of flats - you know, for a laugh, because they hate Arabs - then you'd be right to assume that the casualties would be probably all civilian. But they aren't - they're aiming at known Hezb'Allah operation sites/bases, which lowers the innocent:scumbag ratio quite considerably. Granted, because Hezb'Allah like to hid in amongst people and use them as human shields, there's still going to be some, maybe even a lot of, civilian deaths, but you can't automatically assume that they're ALL civilians, precisely because the target is NOT civilians.

 

[Poverty]

30 civilians for 1 terrorist is wrong. Anyway I have now come back to battle with my new learned anti israel knowledge, although I will probably be too late.

 

[Danoff]

30 civilians for 1 terrorist is wrong. Anyway I have now come back to battle with my new learned anti israel knowledge, although I will probably be too late.

Can you give me a number of civilians/terrorist deaths that you think is morally justified?

We're not just talking about any civilians either, we're talking about civilians of a country that renigged on a signed agreement to eliminate said terrorist organization and who's government is composed partly of those terrorists.

Blowing up a building in the UK and taking out 30 civilians for 1 terrorist would be wrong. But that's not nearly the same thing.

 

[magburner]

Of course that has nothing to do with moral superiority or the justifications of the cause... but whatever... that stuff's not important. All that matters is who is taking it the hardest.

I've said all along that Israel is justified in defending its borders. I wouldn't say they were morally superior though. Israel must do what it must, but they must also ensure that civillians are not harmed. Yes, I know its impossible, but dropping bombs on 'suspected' terrorist targets is not the answer.

This is what Israel should of been doing from day one: Hezbollah stronghold attacked.

Although civillians where killed here too, it is clear that this attack was planned better than the wanton destruction that has been dished out all over Lebanon so far. I've repeatedly gone on about the proof, well it looks like Israel are finally starting to show it.

The question is Why didn't they do this from the start? The 3 weeks of bombardments have achieve little but send the terrorists scuttling to their little holes, and wreak a nation needlesly.

If Israel had started with this kind of attack, then maybe we would of had a ceasefire by now in Israels favour; And (I believe) Hezbollah would of been seriously weakened - the element of surprise can work wonders yunno... The only problem is that I also feel that 'after-the-fact' attacks like this will have little effect now. Do you honestly beleive that Hezbollah are stupid enough to have anyone of note hiding in hospitals, or anywhere as obvious as that?

 

[magburner]

Anyway I have now come back to battle with my new learned anti israel knowledge, although I will probably be too late.

Why do you need any anti-Israeli knowledge? My comments are hostile towards Israels military strategies, not the people themselves. Are yours?

As a side note, I was reading some very intersting Jewish anti-Zionist websites last night. Did you know that even some of the worlds Jewry are calling for the removal of the state of Israel?

 

[Danoff]

This is what Israel should of been doing from day one: Hezbollah stronghold attacked.

That would have a been horrible from a strategic point of view. I don't blame Israel for not wanting to conduct this operation in the worst possible way for themselves.

Although civillians where killed here too, it is clear that this attack was planned better than the wanton destruction that has been dished out all over Lebanon so far. I've repeatedly gone on about the proof, well it looks like Israel are finally starting to show it.

You assumed the proof was not there. You assumed Israel was lieing from day one when you had no reason to assume that. Instead you took terrorists, terrorists who attack innocent people indiscriminately, at their word.

The question is Why didn't they do this from the start? The 3 weeks of bombardments have achieve little but send the terrorists scuttling to their little holes, and wreak a nation needlesly.

You still assume that Israel has accomplished nothing with the bombardments. Despite their claims you take the terrorists at their word.

Do you honestly beleive that Hezbollah are stupid enough to have anyone of note hiding in hospitals, or anywhere as obvious as that?

That's apparently what the video shows (I haven't seen it yet because CNN isn't working properly).

 

[Famine]

30 civilians for 1 terrorist is wrong. Anyway I have now come back to battle with my new learned anti israel knowledge, although I will probably be too late.

Firstly, as danoff said, let us know what your particular acceptable civilian:terrorist ratio is, and how you'd determine which, of the tens of dead bodies removed from a building, were terrorists and which weren't.

Secondly, I'd like you to meet my good friend, the AUP. AUP says:

You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harrass, threaten, nor attack anyone or any group. There will be no racially, sexually or physically abusive or inciteful language tolerated. Any abusive comments made by members will be removed by the Moderating staff and the user issued with a warning or banned, as deemed appropriate by the Moderating staff.

If you can stick to that, go ahead. I suspect you can't though.

 

[niky]

Can you give me a number of civilians/terrorist deaths that you think is morally justified?

We're not just talking about any civilians either, we're talking about civilians of a country that renigged on a signed agreement to eliminate said terrorist organization and who's government is composed partly of those terrorists.

Blowing up a building in the UK and taking out 30 civilians for 1 terrorist would be wrong. But that's not nearly the same thing.

Errh. I hate to get into this topic, and I've been avoiding it like the plague, but...

Those civilians neither signed the agreement or reneged on it. And what proof do we have that they actively support Hez'bollah?

I do agree that the Lebanese government must be either complicitly in bed with the Hez'bollah or laughably inept at controlling radicals within their borders (probably a little bit of both), but the common citizen?

That building in the UK and the 30 civilians to 1 terrorist? Nearly the same thing. Just imagine the terrorist's Irish and the police can't get into the neighborhood because they're afraid of getting bludgeoned to death. Of course, it's perfectly all right to bomb the building.

I'm not saying I know a better way, but then, there is the ground offensive that Israeli is already doing, the artillery bombardments and the air strikes on known terrorist positions outside towns... and Israel has made the concession of halting the bombings... for a bit... a sort of concession to the fact that they might have gone overboard, and that they need to wait for more of those people to evacuate.

And don't go bulling me on how stupid those people were in the first place not to... if you've never lived through something like this, you wouldn't know, now, would you? If the counter-argument is that they were being held against their will, well, yeah, tough for them I suppose. Glad we're not them now, huh?

I know current policy is not to negotiate with terrorists, but blowing up hostages never used to be on the S.O.P. either... at least, not our S.O.P... the US seemed to manage getting into Afghanistan and Iraq without shooting too many civvies.

 

[Swift]

There are always answers and solutions to every situation. Looking at the bigger picture - not just this current crisis, but the ongoing battle of ideologies; I can see that there are only two black and white conclusions to the problem. Either Israel goes, or the majority of the Middle East goes. which would you choose?

It's obviously unacceptable to call for the removal of Israel, so we continue doing something equally unacceptable - destroying any Middle Eastern country that threatens Israel. Since every muslim is a potential extremist, and this conflict is creating more - We should be concentrating on removing the causes of extremism, not the extremists themselves.

Still haven't given a good answer to the question.

You tell me? All casualties must be assumed to be innocent civillians unless proven otherwise.

Then you are assuming that civilians are the ones launching hundreds of rockets and missiles into Israel.

I don't care how many terrorist are killed, I don't even care how many Israeli soldiers are killed, what I care about is the innocents on both sides that are caught in the middle. I'm leaning more towards the side of the Lebanese since thier country has suffered heavily. If Israel had took the pounding Lebanon had, I would be leaning more towards them.

then you have no principles. You simply go with the side that seems weaker. Forget who has the justification or anything. Civilians are dieing, so whoever is doing it MUST be wrong. Yeah, that's bleeding heart liberalism at it's core.

 

[FoolKiller]

We should be concentrating on removing the causes of extremism, not the extremists themselves.

What are the causes of extremism? Also, what do you mean by removing teh causes? Do you mean removing all western influences from the regions or removing whatever it is that makes them hate our capitalist ways?

I'm curious what you mean by causes and where you are going with this.

I don't care how many terrorist are killed, I don't even care how many Israeli soldiers are killed, what I care about is the innocents on both sides that are caught in the middle. I'm leaning more towards the side of the Lebanese since thier country has suffered heavily. If Israel had took the pounding Lebanon had, I would be leaning more towards them.

Does this take into account civilian deaths suffered by years of rocket attacks and suicide bombings?

And how does someone's ability to fight a war make you decide who to support? If you disagree with Hezbollah's ideologies, then why support them, or their supporting country?

 

[ledhed]

Errh. I hate to get into this topic, and I've been avoiding it like the plague, but...

Those civilians neither signed the agreement or reneged on it. And what proof do we have that they actively support Hez'bollah?

I do agree that the Lebanese government must be either complicitly in bed with the Hez'bollah or laughably inept at controlling radicals within their borders (probably a little bit of both), but the common citizen?

That building in the UK and the 30 civilians to 1 terrorist? Nearly the same thing. Just imagine the terrorist's Irish and the police can't get into the neighborhood because they're afraid of getting bludgeoned to death. Of course, it's perfectly all right to bomb the building.

I'm not saying I know a better way, but then, there is the ground offensive that Israeli is already doing, the artillery bombardments and the air strikes on known terrorist positions outside towns... and Israel has made the concession of halting the bombings... for a bit... a sort of concession to the fact that they might have gone overboard, and that they need to wait for more of those people to evacuate.

And don't go bulling me on how stupid those people were in the first place not to... if you've never lived through something like this, you wouldn't know, now, would you? If the counter-argument is that they were being held against their will, well, yeah, tough for them I suppose. Glad we're not them now, huh?

I know current policy is not to negotiate with terrorists, but blowing up hostages never used to be on the S.O.P. either... at least, not our S.O.P... the US seemed to manage getting into Afghanistan and Iraq without shooting too many civvies.

War is hell

Country
Military Deaths{1} = A
Military Wounded = B
or Missing{2}
Civilian Wounded = C
or Missing
Civilian Deaths =D
Due to War
Total Deaths = E

Allied Powers

Belgium
12,000
N/A
N/A
76,000
88,000

Brazil
943
4,222
N/A
N/A
1,000

British Comm.onwealth{3}
373,372 = A
475,047 = B
251,724 = C
92,673 = D
466,000 = E

Australia
23,365
39,803
32,393
N/A
24,000

Canada
37,476
53,174
10,888
N/A
38,000

India
24,338
64,354
91,243
N/A
N/A

New Zealand
10,033
19,314
10,582
N/A
10,000

South Africa
6,840
14,363
16,430
N/A
7,000

United Kingdom{4}
264,443
277,077
213,919
92,673
357,000

Colonies
6,877
6,972
22,323
N/A
7,000

China{5}
1,310,224
1,752,951
115,248
N/A
N/A

Czechoslovakia{6}
10,000
N/A
N/A
215,000
225,000

Denmark{7}
1,800
N/A
N/A
2,000
4,000

France{8}
213,324
400,000
N/A
350,000
563,000

Greece{9}
88,300
N/A
N/A
325,000
413,000

Netherlands
7,900
2,860
N/A
200,000
208,000

Norway
3,000
N/A
N/A
7,000
10,000

Poland{10}
123,178
236,606
420,760
5,675,000
5,800,000

Philippines
27,000
N/A
N/A
91,000
118,000

United States{11}
292,131
671,801
139,709
6,000
298,000

U.S.S.R.{12}
11,000,000
N/A
N/A
7,000,000
18,000,000

Yugoslavia
305,000
425,000
N/A
1,200,000
1,505,000

Axis Powers

Bulgaria{13}
10,000
N/A
N/A
10,000
20,000

Finland
82,000
50,000
N/A
2,000
84,000

Germany{14}
3,500,000
5,000,000
3,400,000
780,000
4,200,000

Hungary{13}
200,000
N/A
170,000
290,000
490,000

Italy{15}
242,322
66,000
350,000
152,941
395,000

Japan{16}
1300000
4,000,000
810,000
672,000
1,972,000

Romania{13}
300,000
N/A
100,000
200,000
500,000

TOTAL
19,775,866
13,559,544
6,155,219
17,439,287 total civilian casualties , as in dead civilians....
37,215,153

You can go from their the korean war to this date.....

This Gulf war and Afghanistan are two deliberate attempts to limit civilian casualties...SOMETHING new and possible because of rules of engagement and better techs .

The civilain deaths in Lebenon are regretable but limited ...and considering the reality of the situation they are quite small in proportion to the actual attacks and fighting and amount of ordinance and destruction waged.

But its the only war the media has so every civvy death is like gold..to both the regular media and the propaganda of Hezbollah .

 

[niky]

But the point is that at this point, Israel has the technology and backing to carry out this so-called "modern" war, and punitive strikes against targets that may or may not be clearly purely military in nature is an area in which, yes, you're treading a fine line, and have to make a tough decision. But it doesn't necessarily mean that every decision is the right one.

Statistics are a beautiful thing, allowing you to see things from a perspective far removed from what is actually happening. Just because xxxx people have died here, doesn't make it all fine and dandy that xxxx people have died here.

I'm not going to say that Israel should do nothing, or that the Hez'bollah shouldn't be wiped off the face of the Earth. I actually think it behooves all good Muslims to help in their destruction, because of the bad name they give to the others. I'm just saying... hold on there, cowboys... slow down a little.

 

[ledhed]

But the point is that at this point, Israel has the technology and backing to carry out this so-called "modern" war, and punitive strikes against targets that may or may not be clearly purely military in nature is an area in which, yes, you're treading a fine line, and have to make a tough decision. But it doesn't necessarily mean that every decision is the right one.

Statistics are a beautiful thing, allowing you to see things from a perspective far removed from what is actually happening. Just because xxxx people have died here, doesn't make it all fine and dandy that xxxx people have died here.

I'm not going to say that Israel should do nothing, or that the Hez'bollah shouldn't be wiped off the face of the Earth. I actually think it behooves all good Muslims to help in their destruction, because of the bad name they give to the others. I'm just saying... hold on there, cowboys... slow down a little.

thats how you lose a war.

You want it as fst and as violent as possible ...you want to END it .

The longer it last the more bad things happen and the more people die .

 

[RallyF1]

does israel really think they can wipe hizbullah off the face of the earth, is it possible that we wake up someday and there is no more hizbullah, are they dreaming or are they dreaming. hizbullah will never be annihilated, do i like them? no, do i wish for them to stay in lebanon? no. but they are a reality and you have to deal with it. israel is doing what hizbullah is doing, hizbullah will never recognise israel as a reality and work with it or around it and the same thing israel is doing with hizbullah.
basically all that killing that israel is doing, and yes israel is doing because the casualities on the israeli side are insignificant in number compared to the lebanese side, is for nothing. and i'm not saying that israel cares about the international opnion or outrage, they never did and never will anytime soon. but when will this ever end.

 

[FoolKiller]

but when will this ever end.

Never.

There has been fighting going on off and on in the Middle East since humans learned that we can kill each other. If you think it will end with some talking in a meeting I am afraid that you are mistaken.

Eventually either Israel or Hezbollah will tire of all this and grant whatever it is that the other wants. It may be tomorrow or it may be years down the road. That is assuming that Israel doesn't find some valuable information and wipe out most or all of the Hezbollah strongholds overnight at some point.

But then someone else will get mad at someone else and they will fight.

I mean, I honestly can't understand why the whole region can't just settle their differences and live together in peace.

 

[Danoff]

does israel really think they can wipe hizbullah off the face of the earth, is it possible that we wake up someday and there is no more hizbullah, are they dreaming or are they dreaming. hizbullah will never be annihilated, do i like them? no, do i wish for them to stay in lebanon? no. but they are a reality and you have to deal with it. israel is doing what hizbullah is doing, hizbullah will never recognise israel as a reality and work with it or around it and the same thing israel is doing with hizbullah.
basically all that killing that israel is doing, and yes israel is doing because the casualities on the israeli side are insignificant in number compared to the lebanese side, is for nothing. and i'm not saying that israel cares about the international opnion or outrage, they never did and never will anytime soon. but when will this ever end.

If you think nothing has been accomplished you're not looking hard enough at the situation. Israel has said clearly when the war will end... when they get their soldiers back and the terrorists have been driven from souther lebanon.