Israel and Lebanon

[Swift]

It must be understood that ANY AND ALL "negotiating" with terrorist organizations is unacceptable. If they make a demand, all costs must be taken to avoid meeting it. As soon as one terrorist gets what he wants, ten others will resort to terrorism to get what they want. This is not hard to understand, yet many cannot see it.

Because it takes effort and unfortunately it usually takes lives as well. It seems easier just to give in. But as you said, it's a snowball effect and you end up much worse after you give in to the terrorists then when you beat the into submission(as Israel is doing now)

 

[magburner]

Your nothing if not through in your comments. You've picked a few holes in my comments, some that are right, but some that I feel are wrong.

You read Aljazeera right?

Yes I do, but its not the only news service I read. When I first started commenting in this thread, I made some claims that I had not throughly looked into. You said:

You're gonna have to make that case, not just assert it.

Since then I have used news articles from a number of websites to corroborate my claims. I thought that to accurately gauge the views of the different sides of the conflict, I would use news services from different points of view. Since I'm British, I use the BBC mainly, but I cross-reference that with reports from CNN, and Aljazeera.

I will point out, that just using the news services I have stated, gave me little or no clue about what the Israeli's really think about what is going on in Lebanon. It's taken me a while to find sites that were written in English, but from now on, I will be also using the Jerusalem Post, Haaretz, and the International Herald Tribune.

Is it? Given the amount of destruction going on over there, the number of buildings, bridges, powerstations, etc. that have been hit, I think the death toll is proof that Israel is not targetting civilians.

OK, I'll agree with you on this one, but I still have a gut feeling that they are not really trying to minimize civillian deaths. Dropping leaflets, and fore-warnings of their strikes is no defence.

You're think they're just a bad aim, but it's difficult to hit your target without hitting civilians when your target hides behind civilians at all times. You don't even know how many of these "civilians" are in fact civilians. Let alone how far they were from the terrorists.

If it is so difficult, then why bother? What Israel need to do, but is scared of doing, is launch a full-blown land invasion. I think that the ordinary Israeli hasn't got the stomach for another protracted guerilla war in the Lebanon, and that is why the military is backing away from a land war, and his is why the airstrikes are and will remain a failiure.

What exactly are you looking for? A dead guy with a suicide belt on in the middle of a bomb crater?

Yeah, pretty much. If Israel can justify attacking civillian areas, it also has to hold up the proof that there was a threat there, not just a percieved threat, but a real threat.

This video shows proof of Hezbollah activity in Bint Jbeil where the Israeli's lost nine soldiers. Although it also shows the suffering of civillians, I can see that the attacks in that town were justified. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Civilians flee southern Lebanon

You've made this mistake several times, so allow me to correct you (hopefully for the last time). Israel is NOT America.

Your right, but Israel is using American weaponry.

Looked it up. The actual quote is that if Israel were attacked during HIS presidency he'd grab a gun and fought with them.

Can I see the link please? When did Bill Clinton make this statement? was it when he was in power? Was it during this current conflict? Your being a little vague with you answer, unless you can provide a link to his statement, Im going to pass this one by.

I don't tend to discuss issues like this on an emotional level. It's not until someone makes a ridiculous claim - like saying that Condi is faking when she says she mourns the loss of innocents - that I'm willing to dive in.

Hey, I wasn't critisizng you, I was surprised to be honest. You have kept you cards very close to your chest. I though at times, that you were almost emotionless in the way you were posting your comments. It's good to see that you have some feelings towards the death of civillians, and I now know that this is your style of debating. 👍

Maybe I was a little strong in my condemnation of Condi, but it still is a little late in the day to be showing sympaty when there are nearly 600 innocents dead.

Oh I see. Then why is it that EVERYTHING I've been reading and seeing on television has said that the Israelis return fire directly to locations of rocket attacks. The Israelis have admitted that the latest accident was a mistaken target, but maintain that the actual target was a nearby building.

Its all well and good returning fire, but there is always a margin of error. That margin was shown on sunday.

Crappy weapons = light casualties.

No, crappy weapons=no real threat. I'm sure it must be terrifying for Israeli's to wonder if they be killed by a rocket fired by Hezbollah. But it isn't on the same scale as the Israeli attacks. How terrified do you think the ordinary Lebanese civillian is at the Israeli air assault?

Newer weapons = Bigger boom = more difficult to prevent collateral damage.

Exactly!

Indiscriminate? As in Israel doesn't care who they're bombing? That's a big statement, would you care to back that up? You're claiming that Israel and the terrorists have the same tactics and goals.

OK, maybe not indiscriminate, but it isn't prescision - 600 dead civillians tells a story of its own. At times I have wondered if Israel was mirroring the tactics of Hezbollah, but I can't be sure, so I'll give you this one for now.

If Israel is pressured to appease the terrorists by world opinion, they will be signing the death warrants of countless future terrorism victims and sanction decades of terrorists using human shields as a legitimate means of acheiving their goals.

So you say that they bomb Lebanon into oblivion? Do you think that will reduce the likelyhood of another terrorist attack? I feel that Israels attacks are creating a false sense of security for their own people.

Your stance is pro-death and appeasement. You're one for negotiating with terrorists - a stand that will result in death. Appeasing the terrorists now is the same thing as telling them they can get what they want if they simply use human shields and launch rockets randomly into Israel. War can save lives, I know you don't understand that but it is true.

War can save lives, but war also costs lives - dearly. If it was only as easy as killing terrorists, I would agree whole heartedly with you, but the war on terror is not a conventional war. We are fighting a war of ideology, and its a war I fear we cannot win. It doesn't matter that the terrorists are Hezbollah, Al-qaeda, or Hamas. As long as there is Musilim extremism, the war will never end.

Do you remember when Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi was killed? It was claimed at the time that it would significantly reduce the insurgency and sectarian violence in Iraq. We now know that it was a falacy. We killed him, and another stooge has taken his place. Further proof of this is the fact that America is sending MORE troops to the region, at a time when there were supposed to be withdrawals. The attacks are still continuing, and will do so for the foreseable future. We cannot defeat terrorism, we can't even contain it, so the only other option is to remove the causes.

The Israeli airstrikes are far from indiscriminate. And I'm fully aware of how many deaths I've supported. I'm aware of the collateral damage in the Iraqi war I support. I don't have a problem with that because I'm aware of the justifications for action. You, on the otherhand, are supporting the death of innocents BY TERRORISTS. I'd find that quite a bit more difficult to get behind.

Maybe, but the ratio of innocents killed to terrorists killed is heavily stacked in favour of the innocents. Your arguement seems to hinge on the fact that its ok for thousands of innocent civillians die, as long as you are safe. Thats a selfish point of view. What about the safety of those innocent civillians? don't they have as much right to life as you or I?

Not possible.

Well, until it is possible, I will be forever critical of Israels tactics.

It most certainly is not safe to say that. 19 days is nothing, and you don't know how seriously the terrorists have been weakend. Increasing attacks is not an indication of increasing strength. It may be an indication that hezbollah have mobilized to meet the threat and finally have brought the remainder of their full force to bear. Or perhaps they're getting weapons at a faster rate. Or perhaps they've spread their ranks thinner to achieve wider coverage. Or perhaps, as you suggest, they've gain support. Which is fine, those people can die as well.

Or Israel has failed miserably in its attempts to stop Hezbollah? There is no proof at all, other than the speculation by Israel that Hezbollah has been even slightly weakened by the attacks. What your saying may be true, but likewise, what your saying may also be false. There is very little known about the strength and composition of the Hezbollah militia.

Yes. You are. By advocating that Israel allow their own sense of decency to be used against them and appease the terrorists.

Me and the rest of the civilised world then! Condi says she is aiming for a ceasefire, is she (and George Bush) also appeasing the terrorists?

 

[Danoff]

War can save lives, but war also costs lives - dearly. If it was only as easy as killing terrorists, I would agree whole heartedly with you, but the war on terror is not a conventional war. We are fighting a war of ideology, and its a war I fear we cannot win. It doesn't matter that the terrorists are Hezbollah, Al-qaeda, or Hamas. As long as there is Musilim extremism, the war will never end.

👍 Best paragraph I've seen you write. I agree with all of the above.

Do you remember when Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi was killed? It was claimed at the time that it would significantly reduce the insurgency and sectarian violence in Iraq. We now know that it was a falacy. We killed him, and another stooge has taken his place. Further proof of this is the fact that America is sending MORE troops to the region, at a time when there were supposed to be withdrawals. The attacks are still continuing, and will do so for the foreseable future. We cannot defeat terrorism, we can't even contain it, so the only other option is to remove the causes.

I'm not so ready to give up and resign myself to living with terrorism.

Maybe, but the ratio of innocents killed to terrorists killed is heavily stacked in favour of the innocents. Your arguement seems to hinge on the fact that its ok for thousands of innocent civillians die, as long as you are safe. Thats a selfish point of view. What about the safety of those innocent civillians? don't they have as much right to life as you or I?

When did my safety play a role in this discussion? Israeli safety plays a role in this discussion, but it doesn't justify the Israeli response. Israel's response was justified by attacks on its people, not by their desire for safety. Just as our attack on Iraq was not justified by a perceived threat from Iraq, but rather, a violation of terms.

Well, until it is possible, I will be forever critical of Israels tactics.

There is a huge flaw in this line of reasoning that you either don't see or refuse to acknowledge. Refusing to fight to defend yourself and prevent future attacks in the face of collateral damage is the same thing as defeat. War is not perfect, there will always be collateral damage, and there will always be reasons that it is an acceptable evil.

Me and the rest of the civilised world then! Condi says she is aiming for a ceasefire, is she (and George Bush) also appeasing the terrorists?

Depends on the terms under which a ceasefire is achieved. The release of Israeli hostages, for example, would not be appeasement.

 

[magburner]

Prove the adults aren't part of Hezbolah.

Prove they are...

Israelis listened to the government and "got outta dodge". The Lebanese have either decided to stay or are being forced to stay by Hezbolah.

Or maybe, they are too scared to move, or the roads and bridges are impassible?

Do you know of any war or battle for that matter without collateral damage? WHo started the aggression in an indiscriminate fashion anyway? Oh, that's right, the Hezbolah. My fault. The way you were talking it would almost seem like the Israeli's started this particular conflict.

No, I know who started the conflict. I'm critical of Israels methods not the reasons.

Also, don't claim to know the exact number or even an estimate of dead "civilians" because it's impossible at this point in the conflict.

So your disputing the 600 dead? We know how many died on sunday in that Israeli airstrike...

 

[magburner]

👍 Best paragraph I've seen you write. I agree with all of the above.

I don't know whether to say thanks, or wonder if you think I'm talking nonsense. Thanks anyway. 👍 Do you also agree with the statement I made about it being a war we cannot win?

I'm not so ready to give up and resign myself to living with terrorism.

It's easy to say that living in America. Likewise it would be easy for me to say that because I live in the UK. We are both far removed from the front-end of this conflict. Every now and then though, we get reminders of how brutal it can be. Think of the people who have to put up with that daily - Israeli's and Arabs.

When did my safety play a role in this discussion? Israeli safety plays a role in this discussion, but it doesn't justify the Israeli response. Israel's response was justified by attacks on its people, not by their desire for safety. Just as our attack on Iraq was not justified by a perceived threat from Iraq, but rather, a violation of terms.

You stated that you supported the war on terror that was started by Geroge Bush. So your safety does play a role in this discussion.

There is a huge flaw in this line of reasoning that you either don't see or refuse to acknowledge. Refusing to fight to defend yourself and prevent future attacks in the face of collateral damage is the same thing as defeat. War is not perfect, there will always be collateral damage, and there will always be reasons that it is an acceptable evil.

I'm a father, and it shakes me to see or hear of dead children in Lebanon even if they are collateral damage. They could so easily be my own, and I know how that would feel if it was the case. I also worry about the world my children will be growing up into. Thats my reasoning. its not logical, but hey! Think of it another way. How many angry parents are there out there? how many angry people who have lost everything through no fault of their own are out there? Isn't Israel creating more terrorists, and how can we be sure that 'collateral damage' doesn't create extremism?

Depends on the terms under which a ceasefire is achieved. The release of Israeli hostages, for example, would not be appeasement.

Israel is going to have to give a little in return, or the terrorists won't agree. Hezbollah isn't on the ropes, Lebanon is. They have shown little regard for their homeland thus far. A ceasefire won't happen unless they get something out of it.

 

[Danoff]

I don't know whether to say thanks, or wonder if you think I'm talking nonsense. Thanks anyway. 👍 Do you also agree with the statement I made about it being a war we cannot win?

I also fear that it is a war we cannot win. But the jury is still out.

It's easy to say that living in America. Likewise it would be easy for me to say that because I live in the UK. We are both far removed from the front-end of this conflict. Every now and then though, we get reminders of how brutal it can be. Think of the people who have to put up with that daily - Israeli's and Arabs.

I am.

You stated that you supported the war on terror that was started by Geroge Bush. So your safety does play a role in this discussion.

Not in the Israeli - Lebanon discussion. It plays a role in the Iraq discussion.

I'm a father, and it shakes me to see or hear of dead children in Lebanon even if they are collateral damage. They could so easily be my own, and I know how that would feel if it was the case. I also worry about the world my children will be growing up into. Thats my reasoning. its not logical, but hey! Think of it another way. How many angry parents are there out there? how many angry people who have lost everything through no fault of their own are out there? Isn't Israel creating more terrorists, and how can we be sure that 'collateral damage' doesn't create extremism?

I partially blame the people of lebanon for their children's deaths. If they decide to become terrorists, we'll kill them too. That's the only way to stop terrorism. Kill all of them, and make sure that others know that to become a terrorist is to die without achieving anything.

Israel is going to have to give a little in return, or the terrorists won't agree. Hezbollah isn't on the ropes, Lebanon is. They have shown little regard for their homeland thus far. A ceasefire won't happen unless they get something out of it.

The idea is for Hezbollah to be on the ropes. Then Israel doesn't have to appease the terrorists in any way. Appeasement = Future Terrorism.

 

[KSaiyu]

If Syria supports Hezb'Allah, why has there been no second front opened on the Golan Heights?

Hezb'Allah cannot operate against Israel from Iran, because Iran is 1,500 miles away.

Only in Lebanon, where Hezb'Allah are state-supported and part of government, are strikes and raids against Israeli territory carried out. Iran is not a threat. Syria, if it were a threat, would already be one.

My point is there is no logical end if you just keep up the bombing campaign against Lebanon - the Hezbollah in Iran and Syria will just keep resupplying. My words are ringing true now with the videos of more people in IRAN and SYRIA, as well as Iraq, uniting with Hezbollah and supporting their fight "against the jews and americans".

I'm sorry - you didn't answer my question with regards to the hypothetical "China nukes Bristol" situation.

Look at it another way - how many people were blaming the victims of Katrina for remaining in New Orleans despite the warnings?

You've got to look at the REASON for attacking as well, and you can't expect a clear evacuation of every single civilian to signal Israel a green light to bomb regardless.

Yes - the warnings were unnecessary. A country operated a raid against another one. There's absolutely nothing compelling the second country to warn the first where and when it will strike back. Nothing at all.

Yes, but theres no need for the extent of the force with which Israel has carried out either, warnings or not.

Though it's readily apparent I'm going to ask for a less-biased source reporting illegal activities by Israel than "Arabic News", I must say that this is the first I've heard of Israel operating cross-border raids to abduct individuals. I'm also curious why you think the people in question are innocent when Israel don't.

Note I don't say all are innocent, and I am just basing this on reports from Lebanese and the documentary on the Palestinians held captive, although I stongly doubt that it is just Palestinians that are being held in this way.

Last week you were saying that we shouldn't be conducting wars today as we were in the past, by our forefathers...?

Exactly, but that was when relating to the blitzing of cities carried out in WW2, not comparing how the Jewish terrorists were dealt with in the '40s to the punishment THEY are now bringing to the whole Lebanese population.

That's the only way to stop terrorism. Kill all of them, and make sure that others know that to become a terrorist is to die without achieving anything.

But in their world dying for the cause will be seen as martydom, so no matter how many terrorists are killed, they will ALWAYS believe that they will be achieving something.

 

[Swift]

Prove they are...

My point is that you don't know for sure either way. But you DO know that the Israelis are targeting Hezbolah targets. That simply means that the adults could be either one and it's rather difficult to tell a few hours after bombs come falling down. Or even a few days for that matter.

Or maybe, they are too scared to move, or the roads and bridges are impassible?

If they're too scared to move, that's the fault of the Lebanese government. Also, Israel is literally telling them exactly where and approximately where they are going to be hit. Name another "aggressor" that ever did that for the enemy.

No, I know who started the conflict. I'm critical of Israels methods not the reasons.

So I will ask you as I asked KSaiyu, what's your solution?

So your disputing the 600 dead? We know how many died on sunday in that Israeli airstrike...

Of course I'm disputing it. It could be 2000 it could be 200. There's no way for US to know for sure at this point. All we know is that Hezbolah is hiding in civilian builidings and locations and both are getting hit.

 

[RallyF1]

each side will continue in defending it's position. we can go back and open the history books to back up our claims, but what is important right now is what is going on the ground.
if i was a martian passing by this planet and looked at was going on in the middleast i would relly on facts to build my opinion about the current situation, what happened before does not concern me as a martian. what really concerns me is what is going on right now. and here it is:
-- july 12 hizbullah jumped the fence and kidnapped two israeli soldiers.
--israel responded by bombing the airport, gas tanks, bridges, electric companies, and more roads, claiming that they are being used by hizbullah; from the looks of it these are the infrastructure of a country called lebanon not a country called hizbullah.
--in the process of bombing these structures civilians died so hizbullah responded first by hitting a israeli military ship and then firing rockets into israel.
-- israel then proceeded into bombing lebanon 24/7 for the past 20 days caliming that they want their two soldiers back and trying to eliminate the so called hizbullah. hizbullah responded by landing more rockets.
--israel is still convinced that they will achieve theire goal.
--hizbullah still beleive that they will be victorious.
--israel is ignoring the call of cease fire, so is hizbullah.
what is there more to say, both sides are hell bent on distroying the other side and no end in sight. will this drag forever, well it depends on the suppliers of both sides. so if the suppliers stop giving out weapons these two factions will run out of amunition eventually and then they have to go at it by hand.
if the suppliers are in controle of this insanity wouldn't it be wise for them to call it quits for the sake of the human lives and the rising death toll.
iran and syria are calling for a cease fire and they are the supplier of hizbullah. america on the other hand who are the supplier of israel is refusing for the call of cease fire. hmmm, as a martian and please excuse my non human analyzing but i think the so called American factor does not care about saving human lives. and one more thing what are the rest of the humans doing to stop this insanity, other than condeming and blaming...........A BIG FAT NOTHING.
in conclusion: it's really a bad thing to have one country dictating the rest of the world.
this is not dimocracy. that my friend is called DICTATORSHIP in it's purest form.

 

[Famine]

--israel is ignoring the call of cease fire, so is hizbullah.

Israel has had a ceasefire offer on the table since before the bombing - stop shelling our civilians and return our two soldiers and we'll stop shelling Hezb'Allah targets. Hezb'Allah rejected this ceasefire "on Zion's terms" as it would be "humiliating".

And Israel had a ceasefire yesterday.

So your above statement is patently false.

what is there more to say, both sides are hell bent on distroying the other side and no end in sight.

There is a subtle difference though. One side is intent on destroying the other's "soldiers" and is only targetting them, whereas the other side is intent on destroying every living thing in their opposition's territory.

will this drag forever, well it depends on the suppliers of both sides. so if the suppliers stop giving out weapons these two factions will run out of amunition eventually and then they have to go at it by hand.
if the suppliers are in controle of this insanity wouldn't it be wise for them to call it quits for the sake of the human lives and the rising death toll.
iran and syria are calling for a cease fire and they are the supplier of hizbullah. america on the other hand who are the supplier of israel is refusing for the call of cease fire.

I'm sorry? Have you lost your mind?

Israel have had a ceasefire offer since before day 1. Condoleeza (US) is touring the Middle East, pressing for a ceasefire. Bush (US) is asking for a "sustainable ceasefire". Blair is pushing for an "immediate ceasfire". Syria have offered to help Lebanon remove Hezb'Allah from southern Lebanon. The UN is asking for a ceasefire. France is asking for a ceasefire (no surprise there).

On the other hand the Lebanese Prime Minister is unwilling to even meet with Condi, Hezb'Allah say they will not stop unless "Israeli aggression" stops (proven untrue yesterday). Syria also claim that this is "propogated by the USA" (which is amusing if, as you claim, they are supplying Hezb'Allah). Al-Qud blame "Washington and its Arab allies, especially the Egypt-Saudi-Jordan triumvirate" ( ) and it is claimed that Iran is sending soldiers to help Hezb'Allah.

So I'm not seeing how the US isn't pushing for a ceasefire and Iran and Syria are, when the exact opposite appears to be true.

I'd also like to know how you can claim that the US supply Israel. I saw the earlier reports about the US planes going via Glasgow Prestwick loaded with bunker busters - but I didn't see them at any point mention that the weapons are made by a private company (Lockheed Martin), nor whom the planes belong to. As far as I can see, Israel bought weapons from a company and the company supplied them. If I buy a PS2, would you blame the Japanese government for supplying me with it?

Of course "Weapons company makes bombs" isn't as good a headline though.


Funnily, the UN have this to say (which backs up the earlier "spoof" danoff posted) according to the Beeb:

"There is strong prima facie evidence that both [sides] have committed grave breaches of international humanitarian law," he said.

This is a reference, with regard to Israel, to the principle of proportionality and to the bombing of buildings and structures with civilians in or near them - the Geneva Conventions allow attacks only if such places are making an "effective" military contribution to the opposing side.

As for Hezbollah, it has been firing rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas and the UN Humanitarian chief Jan Egeland has accused it of using civilians as cover.

One can argue whether Israel is making an "effective military contribution" or not - it remains to be seen - but it's not possible to argue whether Hezb'Allah are using their own people as human shields or not.

hmmm, as a martian and please excuse my non human analyzing but i think the so called American factor does not care about saving human lives. and one more thing what are the rest of the humans doing to stop this insanity, other than condeming and blaming...........A BIG FAT NOTHING.

Jesus Christ almighty (or Allah almighty - whatever floats your boat)... Israel are bombing parts of Lebanon in response to attacks from those parts of Lebanon, due to Lebanese unwillingness to live up to their own peace treaty signed 17 years ago. How does that have anything to do with the Americans?

Plus I wouldn't exactly call sending one of their most prominant politicians into the area (read: painting a big, fat target on her face) to get both sides to stop killing each other (one side will talk to her, the other won't) "A BIG FAT NOTHING".

in conclusion: it's really a bad thing to have one country dictating the rest of the world.
this is not dimocracy. that my friend is called DICTATORSHIP in it's purest form.

This is an interesting conclusion, but I'm not seeing anywhere in your post which supports this argument - nor even discusses it. You seem to have concluded a different post. But I would like to know what you have that supports it.

 

[RallyF1]

famine, i know that you will never understand my position and i am convinced that you will never change your mind, but please get your facts right. i mean please this is an insult to you as it is to me. i stoped reading your response when you started stating that israel accepted the cease fire from day one. i have no idead what news you listen to, but all news casts confirm the israeli unwillingness for a cease fire, and then you went ahead and made it even worse by saying that prime minister saniura of lebanon refused to meet Condelisa Rise, i swear man blood is shooting through my head for such a claim that you just presented.I AM UTTERLEY PISSED AND ANGRY RIGHT NOW, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD READ THE NEWS. THE PRIME MINISTER WAS PLEADING FOR A CEAS FIRE SINCE DAY ONE, HE TOLD RICE THAT SHE IS NOT WELCOMED AFTER HE MET HER AND PLEADED WITH HER BEFORE SHE WENT ISRAEL TO STOP THE FIRING TO WHICH SHE RESPONDED THAT THERE IS NO FINAL PUSH FOR A CEASFIRE YET. SHE WENT TO ISRAEL MET WITH OLMERT, QANA WENT DOWN AND SANIORA OUT OF ANGER ASKED HER NOT TO SHOW UP BECAUSE IT WAS ALREADY TOO LATE...HE WANTED TO PREVENT A MASSACRE AND SHE REFUSED TO GRANT HIM A CEAS FIRE, TO WHICH SHE RESPONDED THAT SHE WILL NOT BE LEAVING ISRAEL BECAUSE THERE IS STILL WORK TO BE DONE AFTER QANA, AND WHEN TOLD TO COMMENT REGARDING SENIORA'S UNWELCOMING GESTURE SHE REFRAINED FROM ANSWERING.....PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT.
I KNOW THAT YOU WOULD RATHER BE IN ISRAEL NOW OR MAYBE YOU ARE BUT PLEASE DO NOT TWIST THE NEWS AND FACTS.
SHAME ON YOU

 

[Kylehnat]

hmmm, as a martian and please excuse my non human analyzing but i think the so called American factor does not care about saving human lives.

Cut the crap, will you? For once, we DON'T start a conflict, and you still want to blame the Great Satan. And please, for the love of Pete, don't start with the "America supports Israel, so....". We have ZERO obligation to do anything about this conflict. The fact that our government is involved to some degree shows that we are interested in saving lives, and ending this violence just as much as anyone.

Be careful when you dismount that horse; it's awfully high.

 

[Famine]

PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT.

Coming from someone who claims Iran want a ceasefire, the US started and propogate this war, the US don't want a ceasefire, that Palestine is a place (and so on), this is amusing as it is arrogant.

Question: Is the Lebanese Prime Minister willing or unwilling to meet Condoleeza Rice? Read all the news you want, then get back to me.


Israel didn't "accept a ceasefire from day one". They tabled their exact terms for not even starting to shoot beforehand. Their offer has remained on the table ever since. The terms are:

1. Hezb'Allah return the two kidnapped soldiers.
2. Hezb'Allah cease activities against Israel.
3. Lebanon mobilise army in southern Lebanon to disarm/disband Hezb'Allah as Lebanon accepted under the terms of the 1989 Taif Agreement, but never did anything about.


Hezb'Allah refuse points 1 and 2, saying that any ceasefire "on Zion's terms" would be "humiliating" (apparently humiliation is worse than having everyone around them killed). Lebanon still refuse on point 3, despite having signed an agreement to do exactly that already.

You really do need to get out of this mindset that Israel = USA = bad.

I AM UTTERLEY PISSED

Don't post while drunk then.

AND ANGRY RIGHT NOW

Try launching a few missiles at my house then. That's what Hezb'Allah do when they're angry, and it seems to work for them. Or at least it seems to win them your support - and get the international community to side with them and negotiate to give them everything they want.

 

[magburner]

My point is that you don't know for sure either way. But you DO know that the Israelis are targeting Hezbolah targets. That simply means that the adults could be either one and it's rather difficult to tell a few hours after bombs come falling down. Or even a few days for that matter.

If it is so hard to tell afterwards, why was it so easy [to target them] in the first place? Combatants will still look like comabtants when they are dead surely? Remember the airstrike on sunday? The dead bodies of children in night clothes were clearly visible.

The fact that Israel is using such large munnitions tells two stories. On one hand, they claim they are needed to weaken heavily entrenched Hezbollah positions, on the other (more cynical side), they could be using them to obliterate the evidence of the mistakes they are regularly making.

If they're too scared to move, that's the fault of the Lebanese government. Also, Israel is literally telling them exactly where and approximately where they are going to be hit. Name another "aggressor" that ever did that for the enemy.

I wish you and others would stop using the Lebanese govenrments failiure to rein in Hezbollah to pad out weak comments. The Lebanese government is not responsible for the distruction of the roads and bridges. The fear they face is not thanks to the Lebanese government either, its thanks to repeated Israeli attacks on civillians fleeing the south.

I'll keep BANGING THIS DRUM until it sinks in. SOME LEBANESE ARE TOO SCARED TO LEAVE IN CASE THEY GET ATTACKED WHILST FLEEING THE TARGETED AREA. Did you hear that?

Also, In times of stress or danger, us humans find it quite hard to make rational thoughts. Even more so if your not blessed with the collected knowledge and 20-20 hindsight that we here seem have. Sure some, maybe well flee, others won't. The old, infirm, disabled, young, and the poor are always those that will find it hardest to get out of danger (the same theory applies to natural disasters too). To a Lebanese family, hiding in the basement might seem like a wise move, to us, it is sheer folly.

So I will ask you as I asked KSaiyu, what's your solution?

Hey, Israel is playing into the hands of extremism. Extremism I might add that will be more venomous and deadly than Hezbollah could ever be. If Israel doesn't finish this soon, it will finish Israel - trust me.

"You stand with us, and we will stand with you" said the Al-Qaeda number two - Ayman al-Zawahiri.

That statement in itself might seem innocuous, but we have to remember that Al-Qaeda and Hezbollah are composed of diametrically oposed branches of Islam - Sunni, and Shi'a respectivly. There is no love lost between Sunni and Shi'a muslims, the sectarian acttacks in Iraq are proof of this Al-Zarqawi declares war on Iraqi Shia.

It is in Israels favour that Hezbollah mistrusts Al-Qaeda, and has not (that we know of) reached out for that olive branch. The continuing conflict will only increase the chances that Hezbollah will make that next step. God help Israel and all of us if they do! Everyone needs to wake up and look at the bigger picture. Sooner or later, Shi'a's and Sunni's will unite - its something America, and the moderate Islamic states fear the most.

Of course I'm disputing it. It could be 2000 it could be 200. There's no way for US to know for sure at this point. All we know is that Hezbolah is hiding in civilian builidings and locations and both are getting hit.

Wait a minute! We can't be sure how many are dead but we know for certain that Hezbollah are hiding in civillian buildings? That is a poor arguement. The dead are a lot easier to find than the terrorists! Proof of this is the ratio of dead civillians to dead terrorists. If you can say with certainty that you know where the terrorists are, then the figure for the dead must be equally certain, if not higher.

 

[Solid Lifters]

Hezbollah quiz time. See how you do.

1) If Hezbollah leaders deliberately congregate in areas where there are lots of civilians and the Israelis attempt of assassinate them, which party is responsible for any innocent lives lost?

A) Hezbollah
B) Israel

2) If Hezbollah soldiers set up an ammo dump in a mosque and the Israelis blow it up from the air, which party is responsible for the destruction of the mosque?

A) Hezbollah
B) Israel

3) If members of Hezbollah dress like civilians and fire at Israelis from a crowd, then if the Israelis fire back and innocents are killed, which party is responsible for those deaths?

A) Hezbollah
B) Israel

4) If Hezbollah commits an act of war against Israel and the Israelis respond by destroying bridges, roads, airports, power plants, and banks used by Hezbollah as part of the war effort, which party is responsible for the inconvenience and suffering of Lebanese civilians that this causes?

A) Hezbollah
B) Israel

5) If Hezbollah, unlike Israel, deliberately targets civilians in an attempt to kill them, which party is responsible for those lost lives?

A) Hezbollah
B) Israel

If you answered "A" to all 5 questions, you're right!

 

[ledhed]

Well it seems that there were trapped civilians in southern Lebanon...at least the ones in the news being dug out by camramen and other press...so fear of being blow to bits...seeems about right . They were able to move because Israel ceased its bombardment by air for a few days..although seeing the places I cant see what is left to bomb anyway..but Hezbollah militia are still about scurrying through the ruins and their bunkers so the rubble will be bombed it seems..btw I watch Fox and CNN and MSNBC along with the American version of BBC...they all showed the same thing...no bombs being dropped...civilians fleeing north from bombed out towns and villiages..plenty of evidence of Hezbollah ..even an arms stash ..or what was left of it in a hospital..the hospital had holes in it ..BTW .
looks just like a war in a semi Urban enviroment .

The Lebanese minister DID refuse to meet with Condi Rice ..So the confused dude with the green writing needs to chill .

Israel cant accomplish its aim without a ground invasion. The targeting must be a combined arms effort to be effective..so far all Israel has accomplished is ..bad press and increased sympathy for Hezbollah..increased prestige for Hezbollah and more importantly for the averarge Arab..they have put Hezbollah on par with the " mighty " Israeli army .

For Jews 💡 ..rumor has it they controll the media ....WTH ? How can they be so dumb when it comes to the media ?

They are ineffective at there tactical goals ..they have limited but not stopped resupply ..they have not stopped the rockets and missiles..they have not ..seemingly ..degraded hezbollah militarily..what have they accomplished militarily ?

War consist of more than bombs and rockets bullets and missiles..war consist of politics and diplomacy and in the age of world wide news ..publicity... Israel- 0 Hezbollah -100

Israel has managed to lose the battle for public opinion in what could be considered a masacre .

Hezbollah has used civillians as shields has fired missiles and rockets into cities has hid amongst the UN unarmed observers..in fact has acted like the terrorist they are...but...

Go Hezbollah !!!!!!

All because of perceptions ..Israel hasnt " managed ' this " war ' very well.
And pulling back from a ground campaign because it will increase the casualties of its army and hurt its economy has made it almost impossible for it to achieve its goals..along with increasing the perception that its OK for the Lebanese civilians to die as long as no Israeli soldiers are being killed.
maybe if the bombing and artillery and all the stand off crap worked...but MEH....


It doesnt work ...it cant work..and it wont work .

Israel needs to get its poop together they are running out of time..I never thought I would ever in my life time see them so ineffective and indecisive.
Hezbollah is running rings around them .

 

[ledhed]

Counterpoint

What if it was Israels goal all along to create a one mile buffer..clean out the rats nests along its border..and have international peace keepers with GUNS and the right to use them patroll South Lebanon and strengthen the Lebanes army with international aid and military assistance ?

Then it would seem by bombing the crap out of Lebanon and forcing the UN and all the western nations to get involved they have ;

A ) Spotlighted the danger of Iran = Hezbollah with nukes ( suprising almost unanimous UN security council ultimatum agaist Iran just went out ) .

B ) Gotten UN resolution 1559 back on the table and forced the hand of the western nations to use diplomacy and maybe even force to impliment it .

C ) knowing it would be almost impossible and extremely costly to remove hezbollah completely they deliberately limited their goals to the immediate border area . And a disruption of the stus quo along with the destruction of a huge part of the hezbollah arsenal..even if most of it landed on them .

D ) They knowing civilians would die and would be on the front page of every news paper and make all the headlines , went ahead with bombing the snot out of lebanon knowing it would force the hands of all the major players .
( sounds like terrorism dont it ? ) .

Who said the Israelis are stupid ?

 

[Swift]

If it is so hard to tell afterwards, why was it so easy [to target them] in the first place? Combatants will still look like comabtants when they are dead surely? Remember the airstrike on sunday? The dead bodies of children in night clothes were clearly visible.

What were the children doing in a building that was bombed 5 hours before it collapsed.

The fact that Israel is using such large munnitions tells two stories. On one hand, they claim they are needed to weaken heavily entrenched Hezbollah positions, on the other (more cynical side), they could be using them to obliterate the evidence of the mistakes they are regularly making.

Yeah, the same could be said for the US in the gulf wars. And?

I wish you and others would stop using the Lebanese govenrments failiure to rein in Hezbollah to pad out weak comments. The Lebanese government is not responsible for the distruction of the roads and bridges. The fear they face is not thanks to the Lebanese government either, its thanks to repeated Israeli attacks on civillians fleeing the south.

How can it possibly NOT be their fault? They let Hezbolah stay, THEY let hezbolah into the government and THEY let hezbolah operate inside their country to attack another one.

I'll keep BANGING THIS DRUM until it sinks in. SOME LEBANESE ARE TOO SCARED TO LEAVE IN CASE THEY GET ATTACKED WHILST FLEEING THE TARGETED AREA. Did you hear that?

What's your point? They're too scared to leave because they might get hurt when they leave, but then they stay and get hurt anyway? Yeah, that's sad, rough and I DON'T like it. I feel sorry for them, but I still don't blame Israel.

Also, In times of stress or danger, us humans find it quite hard to make rational thoughts. Even more so if your not blessed with the collected knowledge and 20-20 hindsight that we here seem have. Sure some, maybe well flee, others won't. The old, infirm, disabled, young, and the poor are always those that will find it hardest to get out of danger (the same theory applies to natural disasters too). To a Lebanese family, hiding in the basement might seem like a wise move, to us, it is sheer folly.

These people have been in the heart of conflict for a rather long time. You mean to tell me that there aren't a good amount of people that know how to react? I think the situation is more like Hezbolah isn't letting them leave. But neither of us can PROVE either one at this point. So you can stop beating your drum now.

Hey, Israel is playing into the hands of extremism. Extremism I might add that will be more venomous and deadly than Hezbollah could ever be. If Israel doesn't finish this soon, it will finish Israel - trust me.

"You stand with us, and we will stand with you" said the Al-Qaeda number two - Ayman al-Zawahiri.

That statement in itself might seem innocuous, but we have to remember that Al-Qaeda and Hezbollah are composed of diametrically oposed branches of Islam - Sunni, and Shi'a respectivly. There is no love lost between Sunni and Shi'a muslims, the sectarian acttacks in Iraq are proof of this Al-Zarqawi declares war on Iraqi Shia.

The funny part is, you didn't answer the question. What is your solution? whenever you're ready.

Wait a minute! We can't be sure how many are dead but we know for certain that Hezbollah are hiding in civillian buildings? That is a poor arguement. The dead are a lot easier to find than the terrorists! Proof of this is the ratio of dead civillians to dead terrorists. If you can say with certainty that you know where the terrorists are, then the figure for the dead must be equally certain, if not higher.

How many people that you say might be hiding in basesments of collapsed buildings? Terrorist and civilian. That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. We're not going to know until the investigation after the conflict. Wartime death tolls are very hard to make accurate. Period.

 

[ledhed]

Magburner why are some of the pictures " claiming " to be of the recent attack ....

Israelis raid Lebanese village, kill 51



Angry Lebanon cancels meeting with Rice as death toll rises



FIFTY-one people were killed yesterday, including 25 children, in Israeli air raids that destroyed houses in the southern Lebanon village of Qana, police and rescue workers said.

The deaths came as Lebanon’s health minister said 750 people have been killed, most of them civilians, and more than 2000 wounded in Lebanon since Israel launched its air, sea and land assault on July 12.

Five members of the same family – including two children – were also killed in an Israeli air raid which destroyed their house in the border village of Yaroun yesterday, police said.

Rescue workers say dozens more civilians, including a large number of children, are still buried underneath the rubble of houses destroyed in Israeli air strikes around Tyre.

etc.

Are of the same guy who was rescuing people 10 years ago in the same villiage..when 160 or so were killed ?

Why are reports comming out that building collapsed 7 hours after the Israeli attack and that hezbollah gladly restaged ..or recreated "rescues"
and "bodies " for late arriving press ...who then went and reported it as ..breaking news ..?


Why is the whole story of the "DASTARDLY" Israeli attack and even the so called "protest " ....there are claims of that being staged by syrian and Hezbolah interest...is falling apart...but now that its over and has been reported as fact ...no one is correcting it ?

Like the footage of the rockets being fired from the roof of the building ?

The report by the red cross of 26 casualties ...not 50 plus ....

And other contradictions ?

Simply put does anyone feel manipulated by this ?

 

[RallyF1]

just thought of sharing something that i received by mail, very funny and sums up all that i have been trying to say in a very simple and funny way:

What happens if an insect falls in a cup of coffee ?!
The British : will throw the cup into the street and leave the
coffee shop for good.
The American : will get the insect out and drink the coffee.
The Chinese : will eat the insect and drink the coffee.
The Israeli will :
(1) Sell the coffee to the American and the insect to the Chinese.
(2) Cry on all media channels that he feels insecure.
(3) Accuse the Palestinians, Hizb Allah, Syria and Iran of using
germ-weapons.
(4) Keep on crying about anti-semitism and violations of human
rights.
(5) Ask the Palestinian President to stop planting insects in the
cups of coffee.
(6) Re-occupy the West Bank, Gaza Strip.
(7) Demolish houses, confiscate lands, cut water and electrity from
Palestinian houses and randomly shoot Palestinians.
(8) Ask the United States for urgent military support and a loan of
one million dollars in order to buy a new cup of coffee.
(9) Ask the United Nations to punish the coffee-shop owner by making
him offer free coffee to him till the end of the century.
(10) Last but not least, accuse the whole world to be standing
still, not even sympathizing with the Israeli Nation.

 

[ledhed]

just thought of sharing something that i received by mail, very funny and sums up all that i have been trying to say in a very simple and funny way:

What happens if an insect falls in a cup of coffee ?!
The British : will throw the cup into the street and leave the
coffee shop for good.
The American : will get the insect out and drink the coffee.
The Chinese : will eat the insect and drink the coffee.
The Israeli will :
(1) Sell the coffee to the American and the insect to the Chinese.
(2) Cry on all media channels that he feels insecure.
(3) Accuse the Palestinians, Hizb Allah, Syria and Iran of using
germ-weapons.
(4) Keep on crying about anti-semitism and violations of human
rights.
(5) Ask the Palestinian President to stop planting insects in the
cups of coffee.
(6) Re-occupy the West Bank, Gaza Strip.
(7) Demolish houses, confiscate lands, cut water and electrity from
Palestinian houses and randomly shoot Palestinians.
(8) Ask the United States for urgent military support and a loan of
one million dollars in order to buy a new cup of coffee.
(9) Ask the United Nations to punish the coffee-shop owner by making
him offer free coffee to him till the end of the century.
(10) Last but not least, accuse the whole world to be standing
still, not even sympathizing with the Israeli Nation.

so you attempt to improve your position by anti semitism ?

 

[Kylehnat]

just thought of sharing something that i received by mail, very funny and sums up all that i have been trying to say in a very simple and funny way:

What happens if an insect falls in a cup of coffee ?!
The British : will throw the cup into the street and leave the
coffee shop for good.
The American : will get the insect out and drink the coffee.
The Chinese : will eat the insect and drink the coffee.
The Israeli will :
(1) Sell the coffee to the American and the insect to the Chinese.
(2) Cry on all media channels that he feels insecure.
(3) Accuse the Palestinians, Hizb Allah, Syria and Iran of using
germ-weapons.
(4) Keep on crying about anti-semitism and violations of human
rights.
(5) Ask the Palestinian President to stop planting insects in the
cups of coffee.
(6) Re-occupy the West Bank, Gaza Strip.
(7) Demolish houses, confiscate lands, cut water and electrity from
Palestinian houses and randomly shoot Palestinians.
(8) Ask the United States for urgent military support and a loan of
one million dollars in order to buy a new cup of coffee.
(9) Ask the United Nations to punish the coffee-shop owner by making
him offer free coffee to him till the end of the century.
(10) Last but not least, accuse the whole world to be standing
still, not even sympathizing with the Israeli Nation.

I don't find that funny at all. I'm not offended; it's just not funny. Several of the punchlines have nothing to do with the joke, which makes it a horribly weak joke.

So when an Israeli finds an insect in his coffee, he demolishes houses, confiscates land, cuts water and electricity from Palestinian houses, and randomly shoots Palestinians?

I should put that in my stand-up comedy act. It would surely bring the house down.

 

[Famine]

No, but a Hezb'Allah rocket would.

 

[Delirious]

My goodness...magburner, rallyF1, AND ESPECIALLY KSaiyu...do you guys not get what say...Famine and Swift are trying to say (Among others)?

Simple...don't mess with Israel.

Problem solved, right?

You mess with Isarel, you are going to be in for a world of hurt.

World History shows that.

If Lebanon didn't start any of this with Isarel, there would be no problems with them two in conflict.

Lebanon messed with Israel, Israel's natural response...fight back.

They won't take crap from anyone.

Is that simple enough for you guys to understand who seemingly not be able to understand??

 

[Danoff]

No, but a Hezb'Allah rocket would.

Budum tish!

 

[RallyF1]

My goodness...magburner, rallyF1, AND ESPECIALLY KSaiyu...do you guys not get what say...Famine and Swift are trying to say (Among others)?

Simple...don't mess with Israel.

Problem solved, right?

You mess with Isarel, you are going to be in for a world of hurt.

World History shows that.

If Lebanon didn't start any of this with Isarel, there would be no problems with them two in conflict.

Lebanon messed with Israel, Israel's natural response...fight back.

They won't take crap from anyone.

Is that simple enough for you guys to understand who seemingly not be able to understand??

i came here to confess that i am upset of what hizbullah is doing right at this very moment. insted of fighting the israeli troops on the ground they send out rockets to haifa, and tha's just bad....then i read what you had to say, and i had a change of heart.
the reason we do not support israel, me, magburner and the other dude is not because we hate israel eventhough i do for other reasons but the reason at least to me is the uneveness in power distrubution between these two oppsing forces. and it's hman nature to root for the underdog, it's been like that for thousands of years and that's the way it will stay.
israel has the luxury of getting pampered by the united states's military so that makes them unfavorable among the common man.
we always cheer the team with the odds stacked against him.

 

[RallyF1]

so you attempt to improve your position by anti semitism ?

ledhed, here is the definition of semitic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic

it does not mean only jews, it also includes arabs so i think it's about time to come up with a word exclusivley for jews whem trying to play the anti-something card.

 

[Danoff]

...the reason we do not support israel, me, magburner and the other dude is not because we hate israel eventhough i do for other reasons but the reason at least to me is the uneveness in power distrubution between these two oppsing forces. and it's hman nature to root for the underdog, it's been like that for thousands of years and that's the way it will stay.
israel has the luxury of getting pampered by the united states's military so that makes them unfavorable among the common man.
we always cheer the team with the odds stacked against him.

Wow.

That is one of the most honest posts I've seen in a long time. I mean, I knew that's what you were doing, but I didn't realize YOU knew what you were doing. Bravo for having the guts to admit that you're rooting for the underdog regardless of moral standing.

You probably also hate rich people, big business, and America for the same reasons... am I right? Comeon, stick with the honesty.

 

[RallyF1]

Wow.

That is one of the most honest posts I've seen in a long time. I mean, I knew that's what you were doing, but I didn't realize YOU knew what you were doing. Bravo for having the guts to admit that you're rooting for the underdog regardless of moral standing.

You probably also hate rich people, big business, and America for the same reasons... am I right? Comeon, stick with the honesty.

i hate rich people, but don't mind becoming one. i hate big buisnesses because they have no regard to the common man, smallest example are cell phone bills, fee that and feethis on your bill and you end up paying a fee bill not a phone bill. as for america, i love everything this country stands for, but i hate the people who are in controle of it and lobby for theire own interests let it be republicans or democrates or the jewish lobby all of them are out there for the benefit of theire parties and and theire interests not america and the american people.

 

[Swift]

i hate rich people, but don't mind becoming one.

Ok, right there. I'm done listening to you. Because you would like to become what you hate! How can you hate something that you want to be? That's the definition of being a hypocrite. Actually, I find it rather sad. "Rich people are bad...until I am one. Then they are ok"

Delirious XVII, you're right on target.