Cutting corners.

IronM@sk · Dec 20, 2009

H20HYBRID_GT
Just because this would certainly be illegal here on GTP doesn`t mean it's in the GT5 TT, does it?

This.

And i'm sorry Lernatix but i've seen races in touring car championships where they straigh-line chicanes and do cuts similar to that last corner one, simply because the curbing is so low. Add the fact that they actually put concrete there on the inside of that corner and you have the reason why I said I could find no cuts that would incur a drive through penalty.

My point is valid, and stands.

CodeRedR51 · Dec 20, 2009

H20HYBRID_GT
BTW nice pictures, but they don't show if there was a penalty or not...

There's not. I've tried to get fast laps in without cutting that corner, but I always end up turning in too late and screwing my whole lap up. I just set the 3rd fastest time in the tuned car (USA) and probably cut it about as much as should be allowed. I still had the left side tires slightly on the track side of the rumble strips.

lucag120 · Dec 20, 2009

hey guys and girls; i would like to know if anyone could answer my questions.

1. In the last GT Academy some people in this thread are claiming that people who didn't get penalized in the game were later penalized by PD/Sony for cutting.- Could you guys/girls explain what happened?? did they touch a wall or have 4 wheels out of the white lines or what?? is it similar to the debate about last corner at this gt academy??

2. Why would PD/Sony release GT academy and go to all the trouble and then decide not to include a system to penalize cuts through the track that they thought would be illegal?? To me they already have done this by adding the tyre bundle and yellow area on the exit of the 2nd Esses.

Vince_Fiero · Dec 20, 2009

Did you look at the laps of Lucas and K-Yamauchi, they seem to be using (or cutting) in the places described in this thread. Will they give the illegal example?

TrievelA7X · Dec 20, 2009

Nauraushaun
Actually it simply does. It's only logical to say it does. You're effectively reducing the severity of the corner, shortening how far you have to travel, and reducing the amount of Gs acting on the car.

I don't know about that. They've got a penalty system, I reckon if they wanted people not to cut corners they'd have stepped it up. I reckon all we can assume is that the penalty system governs whether or not your lap is legal. If it's legal, it should be legal for the competition. If a valid lap is illegal, why bother including a penalty system at all?

Concur.

GTP_DEVIE · Dec 20, 2009

What happens if you slightly cut a corner that doesnt penalise,which happens to be your fastest lap,and you are not able to obtain a faster lap after it registers?? Seems a bit harsh to be disqualified for that. My impression of people disqualified from last years academy were disqualified for wall bouncing,they had mastered the technique of hitting the wall a certain way and over-riding the penalty system that way. Completely and utterly against the rules.

Hun200kmh · Dec 20, 2009

If I am not mistaken - and I won't bother doing a frame-by-frame analysis - KY himself cuts the last corner (all 4 wheels) with the normal car. I already beat Lucas fighting his ghost, now I'm fighting KY, and with a few hundreths still to catch, hundreths he easily gains on me in that last section, with (what I think is) his corner-cutting. I won't do the same, but it amazes me that the game creater uploads a lap to whole the world to see ... where such a thing happens.

profi · Dec 20, 2009

Hun200kmh
but it amazes me that the game creater uploads a lap to whole the world to see ... where such a thing happens.

If he wanted drivers to be penalized by cutting this part he would have implemented this into the game. No one gets disqualified in this demo for cutting corners.

GTP_rpm · Dec 20, 2009

Dave A
They will view the top 20 laps, if anyone has got a fast lap by driving illegaly then their time will be discounted and they will look at the 21st fastest time. They won't look at every single lap on the leaderboard, only thoes that have qualified for the GT academy.

Sauce? (sic.)

colic · Dec 20, 2009

Thought I would upload a reply to show this which is below (not my lap, I downloaded the reply)

[YOUTUBEHD]O_SZKOcJknU[/YOUTUBEHD]

Yes the corner may give you an edge but just by doing this and having a mediocre lap is not going to give you a massive advantage.

As you will see from this lap it is just great control and a great line all the way through the lap. Just by cutting the corner a bit is not going to knock 3 seconds off your lap time.

ItsHim · Dec 20, 2009

From 1:30 that's off the track. Still, if there's no penalty, who's to blame?

Mason__666 · Dec 21, 2009

Surely they'll only look for anamolies in the top 20, if the majority or all of the 20 have cut that last corner to a similar degree they would have to rule that as legal. It will only be penalised if a cut that stands out from the norm is found. Least we can assume this?

ItsHim · Dec 21, 2009

They should have better made their mind up before releasing the demo - as they should be aware that in the quest for victory you'll simply use anything possible to shave a tenth off.

That's the beauty of replays - everyone is aware what's possible and there are no hidden secrets. It's also not realistic to self-impose rules that are not dictated by the game.

Racing is not Snooker after all. Shame, really

G.T.Ace · Dec 21, 2009

Lernatix
I have.

In all these pics youre still on the curbs with your left tyres and curbs=track.

ItsHim
From 1:30 that's off the track. Still, if there's no penalty, who's to blame?

Going "off-track" there shouldnt get you a penalty, i doubt it would in real life.
There are only a few tracks where the run-off areas are marked at a certain point where youre not allowed to drive (like Hockenheim, they painted a part of the run-off area from the first corner red because its way too open).

ItsHim · Dec 21, 2009

G.T.Ace
There are only a few tracks where the run-off areas are marked at a certain point where youre not allowed to drive (like Hockenheim, they painted a part of the run-off area from the first corner red because its way too open).

I'm not familiar with Indianapolis, but the white line and kerbs gave me the impression that they are there for a reason

.

Either way, he's over the line and will be entering a world of pain.

Edit: Obviously the replay camera crew didn't anticipate that line either.

Lernatix · Dec 21, 2009

G.T.Ace
In all these pics youre still on the curbs with your left tyres and curbs=track.

No, track = track, kerb = kerb.

Any true simracer would lodge an appeal.

Don't get me wrong, enjoy your opinion, I just don't agree with it.

@ ItsHim That's not the corner I was refering to,
yet is another example of "off track".

I will most likely still buy GT5 if there's enough
offline content but the online features and
community are still in the stone ages.

Lernatix · Dec 21, 2009

Some hardcore league drivers would consider this pic borderline:
(Same track/corner in rFactor)

slicecom · Dec 21, 2009

You people are overanalyzing the hell out of this. The goal is to get the best possible laptime within the confines of the demo. This is a videogame, not a real life timetrial. There are no stewards or FIA. Just do the best lap you can. If it's classified, then its legal according to the rules in the demo.

ItsHim · Dec 21, 2009

slicecom
If it's classified, then its legal according to the rules in the demo.

My sentiments exactly.

If it comes to online play, I always stuck to players sharing my philosophy and I don't expect to be able to jump in any random game and get the gameplay I want or expect.

But with time and effort, usually like minded players meet in the end. Looking forward to the "clean racer meeting" threads

G.T.Ace · Dec 21, 2009

Lernatix
No, track = track, kerb = kerb.

Any true simracer would lodge an appeal.

....

I know many simracers and a curb was always considered as a part of the track, in all racing lessons you get teached to use the whole width of the track including the curbs (unless the curbs make the car unstable) and your rFactor pic is a bad example, a bit more on the inside and i bet he wouldve spun out and you also loose a lot of momentum with an F1 car if you take that corner too far on the inside (i even experienced that in the GT5 Demo).

ItsHim · Dec 21, 2009

^^ Well the centre of the left wheel is just a tiny bit over the line. If you are really anal about these things, that's technically off the track.

Anyway, let's not fight over such details, please. We all should be aware that in high competition situations, you'll simply have to capitalise on any advantage you get.

There's no sense in making the challenge harder by imposing rules on yourself which are not dictated by the game.

H20HYBRID_GT · Dec 21, 2009

R1600Turbo
There's not. I've tried to get fast laps in without cutting that corner, but I always end up turning in too late and screwing my whole lap up. I just set the 3rd fastest time in the tuned car (USA) and probably cut it about as much as should be allowed. I still had the left side tires slightly on the track side of the rumble strips.

After watching the ghost replays from Kaz and others I decided to do that too... there's simply no faster way around that corner.
Shaved about a second off my laptime.

Also it appears if you cut that corner too much, you still get a penalty i.e. laptime doesn't count. 👍

daan · Dec 21, 2009

slicecom
You people are overanalyzing the hell out of this. The goal is to get the best possible laptime within the confines of the demo. This is a videogame, not a real life timetrial. There are no stewards or FIA. Just do the best lap you can. If it's classified, then its legal according to the rules in the demo.

Someone was disqualified from the first GT Academy for driving in a fashion that the game found completely acceptable but which was, in real life, completely unnacceptable.

So "the game passes you so it's fine" attitude is completely untrue.

That line, in turn 11, would get your time disqualified if you did it during qualifying, and as this has a prize of a real life drive in a real life car on a real life track during a real life race, that is what this is.

Glubags · Dec 21, 2009

Paulie
On the last corner, if your outside wheels get inside the kerb on the cement the lap is invalidated anyway

Not true at all... you're cutting too far inside if your laps are being invalidated every time. You can put all four wheels on the concrete inside the curb and get away with it. From the laps I've run in the stock car, the difference between cutting it completely and running it "legally" is somewhat significant... holding 100+ km/h through the corner and getting a solid exit with no wheelspin using both methods, it seems cutting all 4 wheels through is worth about a tenth at most by the end of the lap.

The Outlaw · Dec 21, 2009

daan
Someone was disqualified from the first GT Academy for driving in a fashion that the game found completely acceptable but which was, in real life, completely unnacceptable.

So "the game passes you so it's fine" attitude is completely untrue.

That line, in turn 11, would get your time disqualified if you did it during qualifying, and as this has a prize of a real life drive in a real life car on a real life track during a real life race, that is what this is.

Although I agree with you an extent, the problem with judging the last corner or not is that how can they fairly determine a lap clean or not when they don't have the proper equipment or penalty system to verify the legality of the lap? And also, what is the basis for their ruling that was never set in place to begin with? Some motorsports have different ruling in regards to how much of the car can be placed over the white line - how is one to have any idea going into such a competition what might be legal and what might not.

When the deadline comes and the replays are viewed, if there is a driver who has 4 wheels off the track (over the white line - which is considered illegal by their last minute ruling) by less than a mm, or visible margin, who's to fairly judge whether or not the lap is clean, while possibly taking away that drivers chance at becoming a professional race car driver? The biggest problem is - where do they draw the line if they are going to make such a decision, because they don't have the proper equipment to verify the legality of laps when it comes down to micrometer type distances. A penalty system should have been put in place to avoid this mischief to begin with, but PD failed once again to fully think out such a large and serious competition :ill:

GTP_rpm · Dec 21, 2009

daan
Someone was disqualified from the first GT Academy for driving in a fashion that the game found completely acceptable but which was, in real life, completely unnacceptable.

So "the game passes you so it's fine" attitude is completely untrue.

That line, in turn 11, would get your time disqualified if you did it during qualifying, and as this has a prize of a real life drive in a real life car on a real life track during a real life race, that is what this is.

It's a game, no?

I'd like more information of the person who's lap was thrown out. I'm not skilled enough to take the final corner perfectly everylap, especially if I am up on the 2nd to last split...I get nervous and sometimes my left wheels go inside of the curb, sometimes they don't.

They need to stipulate these rules if they want to keep it fair. If the top 20 people cut the inside and 21st place doesn't, because he has read your post as a moderator/admin then I'd be highly dissapointed.

If the rules for the final turn is not clarified, then unless it's a red lap then as far as I am concerned, it's a fair lap.

newbielives · Dec 21, 2009

It shouldn't be penalize because cutting the corner itself needs skill and precision, the guys cutting the corners putting their tires on the border of what would be penalized deserve some cred.

Gaviao_pt · Dec 21, 2009

Like it or not, if the game allows it must be legal in the context of the challenge.
Otherwise they would be changing the rules at the last minute, and that would really be unfair.

daan · Dec 21, 2009

GTP_rpm
It's a game, no?

Yes, but the aim of this is to find a real racing driver so, in my view, this should be driven properly.

GTP_rpm
I'd like more information of the person who's lap was thrown out.

Here's his lap

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3092739&postcount=765

slicecom · Dec 21, 2009

daan
Yes, but the aim of this is to find a real racing driver so, in my view, this should be driven properly.

Real drivers are CONSTANTLY trying to exploit the rules to their fullest extent, thats their job! Look at what happened in F1 at Monza in 2008. Drivers were cutting the chicanes the MAXIMUM they possibly could, so in 2009 they revised the curbing to counter it.

daan
Here's his lap

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=3092739&postcount=765

Looks to me like the issue there was he was using the barrier as a brake, not cutting a corner. The Indianapolis track doesn't lend itself to such abuse and I don't foresee them disqualifying people for cutting a corner that was allowed by the rules of the demo.

If you want to drive the track the way you think it should be, then do so, but don't complain when they don't disqualify those who got a faster lap time by abiding by the demo's rules, just not following your imaginary made-up rules.

Cutting corners.

IronM@sk

CodeRedR51

lucag120

Vince_Fiero

Off the track driver

TrievelA7X

GTP_DEVIE

Hun200kmh

profi

GTP_rpm

colic

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G.T.Ace

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Lernatix

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