Gay Marriage

Duke · Feb 25, 2010

Earth
Your running an uphill battle JoeyD

Find me one person who would rather or wouldn't mind being raised by two of the same sex

Thats your answer

*Raises hand*

It wouldn't matter a bit to me if I had two fathers, two mothers, or one of each, so long as they both loved me and shared what they knew with me and respected me.

You've got quite a handle on stereotyping, though, and generalizing. Way to go. And thanks for telling me I'm a victim of brainwashing by liberal media and politicians, when I've had precisely this same opinion on homosexuality for longer than you've been alive.

Joey D · Feb 25, 2010

Earth
You can have science, hollywood, left wing media/politicians, and the latest fads guide your conscious, while I'll think for my own.

As always I'll let you have the last word.

The world needs science, you have have Hollywood (I don't want it), I don't support the left wing media or politicians, and the last time I checked homosexuality isn't a fad. And thanks for letting me know what I need to guide my conscience (I'm already conscious as I'm moving freely about and aware of my surroundings).

And isn't bigotry played out yet?

Boffin · Feb 25, 2010

Earth
Just saw a Rosie O'Donnell commercial on HBO FAMILY, she had 5 year olds saying it doesnt matter if you have 2 mommies or 2 daddies.

How low can you go, trying to warp the mind of children. Trump was right, Rosie is scum

And just when do the private parts of parents come into play when bringing up a child? Apart from conception and birth, no dad needs a penis to bring his child, same with women, apart from breast feeding.

What they did was to show children who may have noticed that their parents are different that its ok, because they love them as much as a mother and father set of parents.

As long as the child gets the same love, help, attention and all that, I don't see any biggie at all. It was reassurance, not brain washing or "warping". As long as there is at least one bread winner, and at least one who spends a good portion of their day looking after the child, they are missing out on nothing that any other child with more conventional parents has.

You could argue that if the parents were lesbians, that the child would have no father figure (or visa versa) - and then I'd direct you to the millions of single parent families. Are you going to start a new thread stating that these people should be forced mated with other single parents and that its illegal because the child is missing out on a gender in parents?

There is no difference except that the child might start to feel a bit different, and this could lead to social problems down the track, which is why they said that its alright to have gay parents.

Jondot · Feb 25, 2010

Earth
Maybe I'm wrong, but it appears that you think only a few disagree with same sex marriage? Not sure what country you are from but thats not the case in the United States.

That's not quite what I was saying. My 'few individuals' remark was more accounting the number of people who would result to bullying based on someone's same-sex upbringing. While a larger proportion may disagree with the idea, the number that would actually result to abuse would (I feel...and hope) be considerably smaller. My 60 year old christian mother might disagree with the idea, for example, but I can't really see her shouting at someone in the street over it.

As for the number of people who disagree with the idea in the UK... I haven't a clue. Probably not as high-a percentage as the US, but I wouldn't say the whole country is 'cool' with the idea as such. Bear in mind it's still not legal here, and our two main political parties have expressed no interest in changing that. Also varies from place to place - I'd be willing to wager that the inhabitants of Brighton would be more forgiving than those of Bradford, for example.

As always I'll let you have the last word.

Wasn't aware that I'd ever spoken to you before now, but righto.

Joel · Feb 25, 2010

Earth
Your running an uphill battle JoeyD

Find me one person who would rather or wouldn't mind being raised by two of the same sex

Thats your answer

I would be fine being raised by two fathers, or two mothers...

And for your unnatural thesis, I'd like to hear you explain why unnatural = wrong? GTP is unnatural, eyeglasses are unnatural, shoes are unnatural, CONDOMS are unnatural for that matter.

And I like Duke's point. If they said it was only ok to have a mother and father, people would say it's encouraging "family values".

I love how you dismissed Joey D's request for scientific evidence as "left wing liberal socialist commie bullcrap that's destroying America"

My favourite lines right here.

Earth
Maybe I'm wrong, but it appears that you think only a few disagree with same sex marriage? Not sure what country you are from but thats not the case in the United States.

-Implies that he thinks the majority opinion of the USA is right.

Nice, try to run the "Everyone agrees your the only one give up" routine over me

-Says that majority opinion doesn't hold up

And your point on "People who don't support Gay Marriage are cast out" That is ABSURD! Please, don't give us any of that BS.

CraftyLandShark · Feb 25, 2010

Earth
You can have science, hollywood, left wing media/politicians, and the latest fads guide your conscious, while I'll think for my own.

As always I'll let you have the last word.

Interesting comparison you make there. We could easily substitute "faith, right wing media/politicians, and the most archaic beliefs" in place of "thinking for yourself". In fact, your repetitive rehashing of O'Reily's famous and disingenuous quote points quite clearly to a strong media bias built into your opinions.

Thinking for yourself implies that you've actually investigated the topic. Have you ever personally talked to a gay couple raising a child? Have you ever personally talked to such a child? Have you ever read, with any intellectual honesty, studies on the topic by credible institutions?

This is thinking for yourself. Parroting demonstrably false and archaic notions is not.

Earth
Just wish you'd answer my question.

As always I'll let you have the last word.

He did, and so will I.

No.

There is NO evidence whatsoever to indicate that children of opposite-sex parents have any advantage over children of same-sex parents. Reputable studies by the APA, the AMA, and many others back this up. These are dispassionate institutions unswayed by politics, faith, or the media. Try to find a single shred of evidence to suggest otherwise. You won't.

From a purely sociological point of view you still don't have a leg to stand on. I think it's safe to say that the ideal situation for a child is to be raised by parents who have made the decision to become parents only after thorough and careful consideration. Surely a homosexual couple seeking to adopt has been far more thorough in forming such requisite intent than a heterosexual couple who conceive accidentally, which is obviously quite common. Yet you seem to hold the position that there is still some immutable advantage for the child of the unprepared heterosexual parents?

Likewise, let's examine this from a socially practical standpoint. If these throngs of "deserving heterosexual couples" Alex describes existed, there wouldn't be a foster care system in the U.S. so choked and polluted that it exists as little more than a souless machine. This isn't to say that that's the only factor in the problem - the lengths even heterosexual couples have to go to and the expenses involved in adoption are ludicrous. That said, certainly the disadvantaged children in this system (disadvantaged, on the whole, by flawed or absent parenting by heterosexuals) deserve the chance to grow up in families that want them, love them, and are able to devote the proper attention and resources to them, regardless of their sexual orientation. To deny this seems not only stupid, but outright cruel.

To bastardize a useful observation, it seems far more socially beneficial and moral to judge parents based on the content of their character, not what's dangling (or not) between their legs. This must be done on a case by case basis, and as such, condemnation of an entire population en masse is absurd.

Earth
Maybe I'm wrong, but it appears that you think only a few disagree with same sex marriage? Not sure what country you are from but thats not the case in the United States.

As always I'll let you have the last word.

As we all know, the majority has a monopoly on what's right.

Get real. The 'majority' has supported myriad foolishness throughout history. To be hyperbolic about it, look at Hitler's Germany. To be more topical, look at interracial marriage. Just 40 years ago the majority of the U.S. population supported legal prohibition of black/white marriage. I'd venture to guess you disagree with this? Not coincidentally, the arguments for legal bans on interracial marriage were virtually identical to the arguments against gay marriage today.

Point being, to steal from Ayn Rand via Danoff, the majority has no right to abrogate the rights of the minority.

Earth
There shouldn't be any such messages on HBO Family, especially having 5 year olds doing the talking.

As always I'll let you have the last word

And why not, exactly? Who better to observe in order to judge the quality of gay parenting than the children of gay parents?

niky · Feb 25, 2010

I have a very conventional view of marriage. I view marriage as a contract that binds you together specifically to have and to raise children. I’m of the mindset that anyone who gets married and who doesn’t want to have children is doing it for the wrong reason.

That’s my opinion. I’m also of the opinion that nobody really needs an automobile, a five-bedroom house or a 40” television set. I’m not going to stop anyone from doing any of the above for whatever personal reasons they have.

Thus: I think it’s perfectly all right for gay people to marry. And I think it’s perfectly all right for them to raise children.

All this hoo-haw over needing both a male and female role model as a child is plain bullsnot. I’m a modern day Dad, which means I buy into the idea of doing my share around the house raising the kids. But for those of us raised in the 50s, 60s and 70s... (okay, I was a 70’s-80’s child), we had dads who weren’t hands-on fathers. They’d go out, earn their keep, come home and go to bed. That was it. And most of us nancy-boys raised by our mommies came out perfectly fine and heterosexual, thank you.

To say that single-couple male-female marriage is the only way to do it ignores other cultures... communal marriages... multiple partner marriages (most of the time with men as the head of the harem, but in some odd cases, with women having multiple husbands under her)... etcetera. It’s basically saying “I’m right, everyone else is wrong, there’s absolutely no other way to do this.” (add “everyone else is going to hell” if you like)

The biggest factor in a child's upbringing is a loving environment. It's actually much more harmful to children to have estranged parents or parents who don't get along than to have parents of the same sex who do. And this is backed up both by personal experience and by studies. I know children whose parents are same-sex partners, and they're just as heterosexual and well-adjusted as anybody else. The kids who really have it bad are those who live in a single parent household with estranged parents (especially if they were young when the parents separated) or those who live in a household with quarreling parents.

In fact... I've never met any homosexuals who've become that way due to having same-sex parents... but I've met many coming from conventional households. Go figure. :lol:

Famine · Feb 25, 2010

Earth
So if your were raised by two of your fathers, or two of your mothers, your upbringing would have been just as good? Theres absolutely nothing that two different sexes could bring to a child? Its like how a man and a female compliment each other. A male and a female parent compliment each other in parenting. A father may let his children play too hard or get too dirty, but a mother would counter that and limit how dirty they get or how rough they play.

If you have alot of the same you get no where. It was interesting that a championship winning crew chief had his crew fill out a graph, a graph that had traits like patience, learning ability etc. All the graphs were different and he said his crew wouldn't work if they were the same.

Oh, of course you can have two men or two women raise a child. But is it the best case scenario for children? What I mentioned above says no.

If you assume that two gay men or two gay women are actually the same person twice, then yes.

Were the "championship winning crew chief"'s crew all different genders, or were they multiple people made up of the two genders of which we are currently aware (3, if you're reading this from the Dominican Republic)? Would that not suggest that experience, rather than genitalia, has enabled these different people to bring different qualities to the crew?

Of course by your argument, the best home for a child would be some kind of hegemonic gangbang with as many people as possible - more people = more variety = success.

Only you're now going to say, quite rightly, that sex doesn't come into it. Interesting that it does when it's just a couple.

Sniffs · Feb 25, 2010

so, you guys are still debating this...

here's an opinion from the side of the fence your debating about.

some of us don't care, anymore. everybody does WHAT they want, HOW they want, WHEN they want, and WHY they want, rules or no rules. why else would religion and prejudice still be around? right now, some of us want to just have a life. I gave up on little details like the question of same sex marriage morality and legality some time ago.

i think the whole bleeping issue should be dropped outright here in the US.

DK · Feb 25, 2010

This video here addresses some opinions on why gays can't marry. He provides a counterargument against those who don't want gays and lesbians to marry. I should warn though that he does use swears and he does use the F-word - and I'm referring to the one that is also used as a slang term for cigarettes. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who's offended easily by the term that is the Westboro Baptist Church's favourite term for a homosexual.

LeeMoldon · Feb 25, 2010

I feel that if two people love each other, whether it be male/male, female/female, or male/female then those two people have the right to do whatever they feel necessary to prove to themselves OR the one they love that they love that person more than anyone else in the world by getting married.

IF it is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord then they should get married in a registry office, If THEY see fit.

I can't understand why people have such a problem with two people doing what THEY want in THEIR private/love life. If they are good people through and through then "THE LORD" would forgive them anyway, surely?

And with reference to the parent issue...Something very nasty was done by two young boys on two very young children recently in this country and they were brought up by two straight parents who were obviously unfit to bring up kids. Yet, same sex couples have to go through a very lengthy ordeal just to be considered for Adoption when they could probably do a damned sight better job than other people in this world who just take biscuit.

These are my views, no-one else's and i'm neither gay nor religious.

ta

The Zeitgeist Movement

Danoff · Feb 25, 2010

LeeMoldon
I feel that if two people love each other, whether it be male/male, female/female, or male/female then those two people have the right to do whatever they feel necessary to prove to themselves OR the one they love that they love that person more than anyone else in the world by getting married.

Fundamentally, marriage is a contract. You're getting a little off-track by saying that they should be able to prove that they love each other by entering into a government-sanctioned contract. All you have to do is say that human beings have a right to enter into contracts and you're done.

LeeMoldon
I can't understand why people have such a problem with two people doing what THEY want in life.

Unless that thing is an employer and an employee agreeing to a salary that's lower than you think it should be... amiright? Because the above statement says that minimum wage laws are wrong.

Exorcet · Feb 25, 2010

Earth
A father may let his children play too hard or get too dirty, but a mother would counter that and limit how dirty they get or how rough they play.

Earth
You can have science... guide your conscious, while I'll think for my own.

It's painful to see comments like this. Stereotyping and the dismissal of logic and evidence.

IFLATLINEI · Feb 25, 2010

Lets see. Marraige clearly isnt working for straight people. With nearly a 50% divorce rate why not let gays have a crack at it. The only logical argument Ive ever heard for not allowing gay marraige was some religious woman stateing that marraige or the act of is a religious thing. I dunno about that but Ok. And seeing as though most religious groups have issues with homosexuality gays could then have something similar to marraige, reap the benefits but just call it something else. Me personally I could care less. The fact that its 2010 and we are still dealing with these kinds of issues are just pathetic.

DK · Feb 25, 2010

IFLATLINEI
Lets see. Marraige clearly isnt working for straight people. With nearly a 50% divorce rate why not let gays have a crack at it. The only logical argument Ive ever heard for not allowing gay marraige was some religious woman stateing that marraige or the act of is a religious thing. I dunno about that but Ok. And seeing as though most religious groups have issues with homosexuality gays could then have something similar to marraige, reap the benefits but just call it something else. Me personally I could care less. The fact that its 2010 and we are still dealing with these kinds of issues are just pathetic.

They referenced that in the South Park episode Follow That Egg!, where in one scene the governor of Colorado proposes something similar to marriage - "butt buddies" (I hope that phrase isn't banned here on GTP, if it is I didn't know).

Sam48 · Feb 25, 2010

I'm ok with gay marriage, but call it a union, not a marriage. I don't think gays truly love each other the same way straights do. A problem with gay marriage is that it's not natural nor is it healthy, especially if the gay couple decide to adopt.

buickgnx88 · Feb 25, 2010

Sam48
I'm ok with gay marriage, but call it a union, not a marriage.

Or just have the legal aspect be a union and marriage simply be a ceremony performed by the church with no legal aspects.

I don't think gays truly love each other the same way straights do.

That pesky thing called divorce says otherwise.

A problem with gay marriage is that it's not natural nor is it healthy, especially if the gay couple decide to adopt.

Not natural? In terms of what? Not healthy? How so? How does it hurt the kids?

If you think like that, then you should be against single parents too. They aren't normal or healthy, especially if they have a kid or decide to adopt.

Danoff · Feb 25, 2010

Sam48
I'm ok with gay marriage, but call it a union, not a marriage.

What difference does it make?

Sam48 · Feb 25, 2010

buickgnx88
If you think like that, then you should be against single parents too. They aren't normal or healthy, especially if they have a kid or decide to adopt.

Quite the opposite. A single parent (if straight) will raise a child like any other couple would, only by themselves. A gay couple raising a child, will screw up the child's mental ability to determine what he/she should, and should not be, attracted too.

Could you imagine being raised by 2 gay men. At a young age, you would naturally think that how they acted was "normal". Of course by the time you went to kindergarten, everyone would seem irregular, and act strangely (to you). Growing up would be awful, especially once you hit your teens.

Joel · Feb 25, 2010

sam48
quite the opposite. A single parent (if straight) will raise a child like any other couple would, only by themselves. A gay couple raising a child, will screw up the child's mental ability to determine what he/she should, and should not be, attracted too.

Could you imagine being raised by 2 gay men. At a young age, you would naturally think that how they acted was "normal". Of course by the time you went to kindergarten, everyone would seem irregular, and act strangely (to you). Growing up would be awful, especially once you hit your teens.

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Duke · Feb 25, 2010

Sam48
Quite the opposite. A single parent (if straight) will raise a child like any other couple would, only by themselves. A gay couple raising a child, will screw up the child's mental ability to determine what he/she should, and should not be, attracted too.

Could you imagine being raised by 2 gay men. At a young age, you would naturally think that how they acted was "normal". Of course by the time you went to kindergarten, everyone would seem irregular, and act strangely (to you). Growing up would be awful, especially once you hit your teens.

Wow, there's a thoughtful and scientific theory. So I can assume that you are attracted to girls ONLY because your father was, and for no other reason? You only learned to like females because you were raised in a heterosexual household?

If not, then why would you expect a child raised in a homosexual household to be "confused" about what's right? He or she is going to grow up, hit puberty, and be attracted to whoever happens to stir his hormones. The only difference is that if it happens to be people of the same sex, he or she won't have to go through crippling self-doubt because he will already know that being homosexual is not an issue.

homeforsummer · Feb 25, 2010

Sam48
I don't think gays truly love each other the same way straights do.

What, gay people just do it for show then? Or have a relationship for a bit of a laugh?

Here's a thought: Maybe homosexuals are equally as likely to fall equally as strongly in love as a heterosexual couple.

If there's anything that gay people have a problem with it's finding someone to truly love out of a much smaller group of people than straight people have access to, with homosexuals being in the minority.

A problem with gay marriage is that it's not natural nor is it healthy, especially if the gay couple decide to adopt.

That's such an old-fashioned view. Again, I'd much rather be raised by a couple who can provide a secure family and who love each other regardless of their sexuality than a heterosexual couple who potentially might not have as strong a bond. Speaking for myself, I've been raised by a mother and father and I couldn't ask for more, but given the choice between heterosexual parents who were constantly fighting and ended up splitting up, or a stable and friendly homosexual couple, give me the stable environment every time.

EDIT:

And, what Duke says above. There is plenty of evidence to suggest sexuality is very much hormonal and genetic rather than behavioural, so the sexuality of parents (and given that a gay couple wouldn't have produced their own offspring, there is no genetic link to both parents) has very little outcome in that respect.

ell470 · Feb 25, 2010

Funny thing, people are still so passionate about this "issue?" (proper term?)

Either people are completely for, or completely against, there is no grey area.

I think it's obvious, they are human beings, shouldn't they have the same rights as everybody else?

Ok, I can see that religious people take offense if they allow it to be called "Marriage" (with the bible and all), but to me as an atheist, I couldn't care less.

I think they should have the same rights as everybody else, and NO, I'm not gay!
I'm not even bi-curious.

GrandCobra · Feb 25, 2010

Today's society itself is in ruins, the so called 'Free countries' aren't so free as you behave the way the government wants you to behave, you are nothing but 'consumers' and that's all. People buy in to all this over population and gay rights BS that the government and media feeds them because they're in a brainwashed state.

People become gay because they are incapable of controlling their desires and about 100% of all gay relationships have nothing to do with true love but with fulfilling ones sexual desire.

These people need help with their 'addiction' that YOU people are supporting because if no one's willing to wake up and provide help to these people then I see them as nothing but a threat to the human race and that's all they'll ever be until fixed.

Danoff · Feb 25, 2010

GrandCobra
Today's society itself is in ruins, the so called 'Free countries' aren't so free as you behave the way the government wants you to behave, you are nothing but 'consumers' and that's all. People buy in to all this over population and gay rights BS that the government and media feeds them because they're in a brainwashed state.

People become gay because they are incapable of controlling their desires and about 100% of all gay relationships have nothing to do with true love but with fulfilling ones sexual desire.

These people need help with their 'addiction' that YOU people are supporting because if no one's willing to wake up and provide help to these people then I see them as nothing but a threat to the human race and that's all they'll ever be until fixed.

Apologies if you aren't, but it sounds to me like you're being a troll.

Apok · Feb 25, 2010

Danoff
Apologies if you aren't, but it sounds to me like you're being a troll.

+1 👍

GrandCobra that was one of the most stupid things I've read... this week
I would say, that attitudes like that are the real threat to the human race.

CraftyLandShark · Feb 26, 2010

Sam48
A problem with gay marriage is that it's not natural nor is it healthy, especially if the gay couple decide to adopt.

It's interesting to point out that there's a reasonable anthropological argument to be made for the case that marriage of any kind is unnatural.

ell470 · Feb 26, 2010

CraftyLandShark
It's interesting to point out that there's a reasonable anthropological argument to be made for the case that marriage of any kind is unnatural.

It's even more interesting that marriage is supposed to be something natural.

But that's just my opinion.

GrandCobra · Feb 26, 2010

Actually it is natural for a 'human' since we are different to animals but frankly some people want to behave in a 'non-human' manner. We are not animals, we don't just go around having sex with every female or male on the street.

The fact that Homosexuals are excepted in today's society proves how low we have become and that the government is doing their work just fine which is corrupting the society.

A fix will come one day.

Northstar · Feb 26, 2010

GrandCobra
Actually it is natural for a 'human' since we are different to animals but frankly some people want to behave in a 'non-human' manner. We are not animals, we don't just go around having sex with every female or male on the street.

Science says otherwise. Even animals(which according to you we aren't) don't walk around having sex with every female/male. They usually have one partner and only one that they reproduce with until they die.

The fact that Homosexuals are excepted in today's society proves how low we have become and that the government is doing their work just fine which is corrupting the society.

Not really sure how to respond to this one. I don't see how me not caring who people choose to love the governments fault. Especially when your whole point is that govt. is pro-homosexuality yet gay marriage isn't legal in most locations.

A fix will come one day.

A fix for what? Intolerance?

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