demo physics discussion

R1600Turbo

While I agree that the wheel is the way to go, and I will eventually get one, but saying that people with controllers cannot have a say about the physics is stupid and unnecessary.

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my bad, did i hurt ur feelings?... i was talking about ppl using the controller and bashing the physics, don't be bashing the physics if you have only played with a controller

after tasting gt5d physics i cant go back to gt5p... pd what have you done? tease us like this?... now i'm considering fm3 to satisfy my realistic physics craving, dont worry pd, i'll be back for gt5 when you are ready to commit

mtgear1

my bad, did i hurt ur feelings?... i was talking about ppl using the controller and bashing the physics, don't be bashing the physics if you have only played with a controller

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That's not the way your original post came across.

after tasting gt5d physics i cant go back to gt5p... pd what have you done? tease us like this?... now i'm considering fm3 to satisfy my realistic physics craving, dont worry pd, i'll be back for gt5 when you are ready to commit

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I went back and played GT5 last night for about an hour, and it wasn't a problem to convert back to the old physics. I quite enjoyed taking the Mines around Suzuka for a few laps. 👍

R1600Turbo

saying that people with controllers cannot have a say about the physics is stupid and unnecessary.

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This is always tough, but I think I'm civil enough to explain without ruffling egos.

See, cars are driven by wheels, and video games are played with controllers. So when you discuss physics of how GT cars handle from a controller perspective, what you end up doing is comparing the feel of GT vs some other game, and as I posted previously, that really bugs me. I think any serious racing game that strives for accuracy shouldn't be looking at other games at all, just reality. Things not related to physics like graphics, gameplay structure, livery editors and what not are another matter. But I really can't see how you can have a serious discussion about car handling when played from a controller. Heck, even the interface is massaged so you can handle it with a controller without sailing all over the track. Right there, something in physics are being dumbed down for you.

And what really makes my blood squirt is for someone to come on ranting about how something in Gran Turismo is utter crap, or the whole game, and then turn out that they play it with a controller. Just... GAH.

I've considered it, and I'm not sure what can be discussed in the context of hand controller users other than, "I like the feel of the game," or "The game is really rough" or something. There's no real correlation to reality when discussing the game other than from a wheel perspective, just other games.

By the way, I think what mtgear1 is saying is the physics in the TT demo are so good, he finds Prolgue unsatisfying. And I will have to say that it does make Prologue feel kind of primitive, the way it made GT4 feel when I tried it again. I still love racing around in GT4 and collecting cars I haven't bought yet, but the TT has me starved to death for GT5 now.

Ohh... my God, how awesome it will be, no matter what it includes or not. I really want race mod and a livery editor, but if they don't have it in, I'll still be in racing heaven. 👍

I'm not comparing to other games. I'm comparing to my own experience with most of the cars I have owned and REAL track time. You CAN tell if the physics are close to real life with a controller. Sure you don't get the force feedback, but the feel is still there.

I guess what I am saying is, if you play with a controller and have ZERO real life track time, you have no say in what the physics should be like. That I agree on. Personally, I feel that I do have a say given my experience.

R1600Turbo

You CAN tell if the physics are close to real life with a controller.

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Eh... I'm not sure how you can say that with any assurance, but if that's what you experience, more power to you. Personally, I can't feel a car properly with a hand controller any more, but that's just me. Peace bro.

Guess we'll just agree to disagree then.

Having driven a whole lot of different cars as high performance driving instructor over the last 10 years, my feeling is that the demo physics are even better that prologue.

However they still don't seem to have one thing correct. Its whatever causes the normal 370z to spin its tires in 3rd while turning. It doesn't have that kind of horsepower to weight that it should be doing that real easily. It may be just that they have over done the whole tire non linearity, and the weight transfered to the rear under throttle doesn't really give the rear more grip like it should (or reduce the front grip like it should either)

In the demo you can see easy evidence of this being wrong because you can spin the tires in 1st just going straight by hitting the gas- even when you are already moving. Very unrealistic for a car of this power level -unless you were in the rain or something.

They have this wrong in prologue too where many rear drive cars will spin there tires in upper gears -like the mid engined (lots of weight over the drive wheels) NSX in 4th gear on S2's with hard turning.

Was really hoping they improved this area. Its strange because it seems like the N3's have very little grip for acceleration, compared to the lateral/braking grip they have. Lateral and braking grip seem to be in good proportion to each other, which is great.

z06fun

Was really hoping they improved this area. Its strange because it seems like the N3's have very little grip for acceleration, compared to the lateral/braking grip they have. Lateral and braking grip seem to be in good proportion to each other, which is great.

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It's a consistant problem in all GT actually. I think it has to do with the tires going to/over their limits. Traction just goes from on to off, when it should be more variable than that. So far, it hasn't seemed so bad in the GT5 demo, but I'll probably try and look for it next time I play.

In fact, now that I can bypass the stupid traction control, I should do acceleration tests, maybe compare with the real 370Z.

When it comes to physics I do have a University degree, but since I am not allowed to look at the math behind the scenes I can't really comment on that. However I do have my eyesight and I have seen physical thing interact my entire life. Considering the number of races I have seen you could argue that I even have special knowledge when it comes to cars interacting with tarmac or other cars.

I would say that everyone here with or without a degree in physics or with or without any racing experience will be able to spot when something looks wrong. I think we can agree looking at the replays that most of the time it looks good, even great and believable. Most of the time we are convinced (or fooled) that we are looking at a real car driving at a real track. The weight transfer looks real and the car seems to react like a real car. Of course we can spot some glitches in the Matrix, like when a car crash into something or run off track onto the grass or into the gravel. But most of the time it looks real and believable, and shows how far these "games" have gotten the last decade.

Then there is the next step. You just don't want to look at things interacting you want to interact with them. If you have a simple controller you can interact, but unfortunately it is a one way communication. You can give commands and see things interact on the screen, but you don't get any feedback. You want the next level. You want to feel things! This is the tricky step. Now we are talking real physical physics.

Question is what do you want to feel? (Mind you we are talking about cars on tracks, not cyber sex.) When you drive a real car on a real track in the real world, you are a part of the world and can feel the forces acting on you. When I am driving my car in GT5:TT I can't feel those, which is perhaps a good thing since those forces would have killed me more times than I care to remember. In real life you drive with the seat of you pants and that is the kind of information that you want when driving GT5.

I have been driving GT5 quite a lot and spent some hours with GT5:TT. I believe they both do a great job when it comes to convey the sense of weight transfer in the car. Problem is I am not that interested in that information. Sure you get a feeling for the car; It feels heavy and you feel that you interact with it. But when I am racing, trying to get a car around a track as quickly as possible I am foremost interested in one thing: GRIP! Sure weight transfer is important and it effects grip, but I can see weight transfer. I want to feel grip!

I know I am spoiled. I have been running iRacing for too long. Some of you refer to LFS as the benchmark, but when it comes to FFB iRacing is THE benchmark. (I do enjoy LFS and I think the tire model is doing a great job, but when it comes to FFB... I just say if you have the opportunity; Try iRacing.) As a matter of fact iRacing do have Indianapolis so this evening I have been switching back and forth between iRacing and GT5:TT using the same G25 and 46" LCD-TV. Every time I switch to GT5:TT i feel deprived of my senses. I want to feel the grip of every tire and I want to hear the slip.

When I am driving the NISSAN I can't feel the grip and i can't hear it. Sure I can hear the tyres squeal, but I can't hear when I have optimum slip or when I lost the grip completely. I can however feel when the loss of grip has resulted in shift in weight transfer. Sadly when you feel that weight transfer your are so past the point of no return it is not even funny.

I actually think that rumble function on the sixaxis controller give you better information. Here you can feel when you are loosing grip, and given the fast input from the controller you can counter steer and catch wicked slides.

So when I win the time trial I hope they will install a sixaxis in my NISSAN.

Wow I can't believe I just spent so much time writing a post on GTP when I could have been racing instead. Oh well...

I'm a lazy guy so I'm using the pad, but I just love driving the Tuned, IMO you can feel the difference in handling between GT5D and GT5P and GT4 and so on even with a controller.

z06fun

Having driven a whole lot of different cars as high performance driving instructor over the last 10 years, my feeling is that the demo physics are even better that prologue.

However they still don't seem to have one thing correct. Its whatever causes the normal 370z to spin its tires in 3rd while turning. It doesn't have that kind of horsepower to weight that it should be doing that real easily. It may be just that they have over done the whole tire non linearity, and the weight transfered to the rear under throttle doesn't really give the rear more grip like it should (or reduce the front grip like it should either)

In the demo you can see easy evidence of this being wrong because you can spin the tires in 1st just going straight by hitting the gas- even when you are already moving. Very unrealistic for a car of this power level -unless you were in the rain or something.

They have this wrong in prologue too where many rear drive cars will spin there tires in upper gears -like the mid engined (lots of weight over the drive wheels) NSX in 4th gear on S2's with hard turning.

Was really hoping they improved this area. Its strange because it seems like the N3's have very little grip for acceleration, compared to the lateral/braking grip they have. Lateral and braking grip seem to be in good proportion to each other, which is great.

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Great post. I'm probably saying this because I agree entirely. I also found it hard to believe that such a car would lose it in 3rd gear so easily. Nice to hear the opinion of an experienced driver.

The handling is definitely geared towards wheel users. You can argue that people that use controllers aren't getting the full experience of the game and shouldn't have a say in the physics and handling in comparison to real life. My problem is that in making a game that can souly be fully enjoyed by wheel owners is limiting the market. GT5P felt great with my controller and I had a lot of fun with it, I got a wheel and also had a lot of fun, GT5P was versatile between the two different inputs. The demo though doesn't seem to offer much stability to the controller users out there and therefor feels "wrong" or "twitchy". I think perhaps it needs to bring back some balance to the different choices of input and regain what it had in GT5P.

z06fun

Having driven a whole lot of different cars as high performance driving instructor over the last 10 years, my feeling is that the demo physics are even better that prologue.

However they still don't seem to have one thing correct. Its whatever causes the normal 370z to spin its tires in 3rd while turning. It doesn't have that kind of horsepower to weight that it should be doing that real easily. It may be just that they have over done the whole tire non linearity, and the weight transfered to the rear under throttle doesn't really give the rear more grip like it should (or reduce the front grip like it should either)

In the demo you can see easy evidence of this being wrong because you can spin the tires in 1st just going straight by hitting the gas- even when you are already moving. Very unrealistic for a car of this power level -unless you were in the rain or something.

They have this wrong in prologue too where many rear drive cars will spin there tires in upper gears -like the mid engined (lots of weight over the drive wheels) NSX in 4th gear on S2's with hard turning.

Was really hoping they improved this area. Its strange because it seems like the N3's have very little grip for acceleration, compared to the lateral/braking grip they have. Lateral and braking grip seem to be in good proportion to each other, which is great.

Obli

Great post. I'm probably saying this because I agree entirely. I also found it hard to believe that such a car would lose it in 3rd gear so easily. Nice to hear the opinion of an experienced driver.

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It's nice to hear someone comment from true professional experience rather than someone just spouting off about the way THEY think it should be..👍

MartyParty

You can give commands and see things interact on the screen, but you don't get any feedback.

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Eye to hand co-ordination? You can catch a ball thrown at you without feeling the ball, can't you?

MartyParty

I have been driving GT5 quite a lot and spent some hours with GT5:TT. I believe they both do a great job when it comes to convey the sense of weight transfer in the car. Problem is I am not that interested in that information.

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Well, then that's a lot of information you don't care about.

Especially hot-lapping has no need whatsoever to react to unforseen happenings. There are no other cars blocking your line, there is no dynamics involved other than car interacting with track.

You can take as much time as you want attacking any corner over and over again. If you slide, you don't have to worry about catching it because by crossing the line you have already ruined your laptime.

With identical cars on an identical track, the "grip" is the same for all. Yet some are able to put in faster times than others. Not because they are better at catching slides, but because they are smoother in nursing the car trough the corner. A very important part is played by managing weight transfer.

MartyParty

When I am driving the NISSAN I can't feel the grip and i can't hear it. Sure I can hear the tyres squeal, but I can't hear when I have optimum slip or when I lost the grip completely. I can however feel when the loss of grip has resulted in shift in weight transfer.

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Isn't that confusion cause and reaction? Anyway, I too would appreciate some refined tyre sounds and am looking into upgrading my sound system. On a budget

MartyParty

So when I win the time trial I hope they will install a sixaxis in my NISSAN.

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Now, there's a man with a mission

Sorry mate, first time I hear anyone not obsessed with weight transfer.

the problem with the physics is a lack of feedback, and the transition is too quick from grip to no grip, it's almost like a switch.

Go and try Netkar pro, that too me has the best physics of all the games I've played. When the car starts to slide, you can tell when it will, and you can control it. You can really take the car to the limit and feel what's going on. It just feels right. But here in this time trial it's a guessing game

CoolColJ

the problem with the physics is a lack of feedback, and the transition is too quick from grip to no grip, it's almost like a switch.

Go and try Netkar pro, that too me has the best physics of all the games I've played.

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Well, on the other hand it could be a game-play design feature all together. Forza 3 demo just lets you carry on with slides really easy. Which is great because it gives you enough time to modulate the throttle but on the other hand it seemed a bit too PGR to me. Personal taste and gameplay design, mind you.

And no, I won't try any PC sim because I rather spend my money on some real life driver training than on PCs. 💡

We are still talking console games, and while I share your view on your desire to get as much feedback as one can, it's a bit missing the point.

I only recently spent half of a day learning to brake. Again. Now I'm a very careful driver on public roads, so I don't have to do emergency brake manoeuvres often.

They had a bit of telemetry wired up to the brake pedal just to measure reflexes and how hard the pedal was pushed. Quite a lesson. What I learned is that I'm pretty quick on the pedal but lack on pressure.

Now feeling the forces is one important clue if one is braking hard enough or not. But another very important clue is to watch how hard the nose dives when you slam on the pedal. At the end of the morning I was able to tell if I would make it by simply looking if the nose dived hard enough while slamming the brake.

Visuals are very vital clues to me, and while I certainly don't doubt your words that in fact FFB can be very useful, I can't really see the point.

I can understand while it might be frustrating if one can get it right in one game and not in the other just from the start.

But I know enough hot-lappers that spend well over 100, sometimes even more than that, laps on one track just to get a top spot on the leaderboards. Nobody had the chance to dig that deep into GT5:TT yet, and I do believe every game takes time getting used to.

Thats not what I meant. Sims like LFS and Netkar pro, share the same kind of feedback and feel. It feels right, and it makes sense in the context of a game and the limtations. This time trial doesn't at all. It probably is sound in theory, maths and on paper, but in a game world with the limtations, it doesn't feel like your driving in a logical manner

This time trial feels even more numb on a control pad. LFS and Netkar Pro once configured, work great on a dual stick Logitech pad. You can really push hard in those sims, even then it still takes a lot of skill. There is a lot "feel" and feedback even with a control pad in those games.
You don't need to know a track to judge things.

Sure you can the memorise by rote in this time trial and tip toe around the track, but that to me is not driving

CoolColJ

Sure you can the memorise by rote in this time trial and tip toe around the track, but that to me is not driving

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Guess we're really in the game for different reasons then. Everyone to his or hers taste I'd say

this is from an old Netkar dev journal - but I think he hits it on the nail. That sliding thing is what I feel this time trial has too much of, and not enough of the linear bite zone. Too floaty

The main element of any simulation was also the subject of a total rewrite. The model is now a Pacejka 96 full model with integrations for temperature and pressure changes plus some integration for dynamic behaviour for the quick spinning on the Y axis of the tire. (quick steer).

What I really love about this Pacejika's model is the incredible control it gives on the relationship between longitudinal and lateral forces plus the ability to reproduce a tire with 3 different "zones": a linear zone, a sliding zone, and a frictional zone once the tire lost the grip. I find the linear zone often missing generating a tire that is in "sliding" mode all the time.. giving a sort of "floating" feel to it. In netKar PRO, you get a clear linear zone that gives the tires an incredible amount of "bite".. you really need to push the car to get into the "sliding" mode of the tire and makes driving fast with netKar PRO a very different experience where you literally throw the car into a corner at speeds that most of the time you won't believe and then you'll handle her on the edge of the limit. Driving is more "physical", after 20 laps with the powerful stiff cars you really feel your head shaking.

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Ehh arent you driving IRLish cars in netKar?

EDIT: Ah, no, but other Formula cars. Not really comparable though.

Tenacious D

ZOMG!

Good grief... you just shot yourself in the foot with both barrels. I really chafe when people complain about Gran Turismo in comparison with another video game. Real life driving, racing, whatever is fine, but not another GAME. Don't do it people, I won't give you any credence whatsoever. If you want the physics of a certain game, you need to play THAT GAME. I do NOT want Gran Turismo to be like another game. I want it to reflect real live physics, and nothing else.

Please, if you're going to complain, don't do it in the context of some other game. I can't stomach that.

As for LFS's tire physics, every time they fix something, they break something else. Maybe with the newest patch, they'll get it mostly right. I will have to say the dynamics are very good, and I know the math of tire grip physics is insanely complicated, and that tiny team has done a great job with it. But at the same time almost none of the game is real, and the graphics are rubbish. Plus, PC sims are just stale even in comparison to GT4.


That would be interesting. The ISR guys were practically touching themselves on camera over Forza 3. And it's a nice game and all, but it's still just Forza 2 tweaked a bit. I don't get the feeling reminiscent of Live For Speed like I do in Prologue.

And I have to say it: I'm not disappointed that drifting is so difficult in the TT demo. I'd much rather drifters gravitate to another game like Forza or NFS. I had joined a Forza 3 online party with Mustang from here, and some ninyhead was drifting while we were racing. It would have been okay if he was last, but I was behind him and trying to get around, and taking a chance for a pass on an upcoming turn, he drifted into me and took us both out. It also looked completely fake. Meh. I don't want to go through this nonsense in GT5. I hope at the very least there are drift only servers they can all flock to.

Besides, I'd have to think that drifting wouldn't be easy anyway without proper clutch implementation. I think everyone in that camp needs to calm down and wait for GT5 to release, or at least a proper demo if we get one, before you give yourselves a wedgie over it.

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Before I say anything, I have to say that you were being quite rude, this is a discussion about physics, not an argument.

Ok first of all, I was not comparing Gran Turismo to LFS as games, infact nobody was. I never commented on how it is as a game compared to GT, or how the graphics hold up or anything like that. It was simply tire physics, because I believe the tire physics are as close as you can get in LFS.

I also said in one of my earlier posts was that I don't want them to be exactly the same, but similar, because they're the most realistic and obviously different developers will produce different results. But at the end of the day they should produce similar results if it is to be as close to real as possible. But if GT wants to be as realistic as it can be, they need to fix thier tire physics and I was simply saying that LFS has the most realistic tire physics and if GT got it right like LFS did, then GT would be almost perfect. I never said I wanted LFS physics in GT.

Then you go on to comment about LFS graphics as being rubbish and that pc sims are stale compared to console games. Nobody mentioned these things in comparison, I just simply pointed out the tire physics and nothing else.

I find it odd how you say you want GT to reflect real life physics and nothing else and then go on to say that you're happy that drifting is difficult and they should gravitate to another game like Forza or NFS. If you want it to reflect real life (like we all do) then drifting is a part of it like it or not, if a physics engine is 100% accurate then drifting should and will be possible.

By the way you don't need a clutch to drift

I have to admit I had to resort to wikipedia.

The Pacejka tire models are widely used in professional vehicle dynamics simulations, and racing car games, as they are reasonably accurate, easy to program, and solve quickly.

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Now that leaves me even more puzzled.

This particular tyre model is regarded as being "reasonably accurate" and thus sims relying on that model must be reasonably accurate as well.

Yet there could be a reason a developer choosing not to implement this very model, resulting in a different feel.

Now either people get conditioned in believing sims using this model (which saves doing original research) are more accurate than others. Or this model is in fact the most accurate and practical to use, and other developers act just plain stupid in not using it. Or the processing power of consoles is not big enough to implement Pacejka "magic formulas" so they have to come up with a more efficient or a more general formula.

Either way, I can't really see SimBin, T10, PD and SMS (edit: oops: Eutechnyx) getting it constantly wrong because they are stupid. So they must be getting it wrong (if they do at all), because of limitations of the hardware. Thus, I'm calling it quits, because either way I won't get something better than is available on both 360 now and PS3 in a little while.

I find the linear zone often missing generating a tire that is in "sliding" mode all the time.. giving a sort of "floating" feel to it. In netKar PRO, you get a clear linear zone that gives the tires an incredible amount of "bite".. you really need to push the car to get into the "sliding" mode of the tire and makes driving fast with netKar PRO a very different experience where you literally throw the car into a corner at speeds that most of the time you won't believe and then you'll handle her on the edge of the limit. Driving is more "physical", after 20 laps with the powerful stiff cars you really feel your head shaking.

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This sounds like a description of FC/SCC.

In GT5D (as in GT5P) the tires seem to slide as though there is no "linear grip". Through experience you can learn to steer the car through the corners, but you don't really "feel" it through the FFB. The actions of the car look accurate in the (amazing) replays, but you don't get much of a feel for it while you're actually driving - this leads me to believe it might have more to do with the FFB than the physics.

It would be nice to know how they simulate tires. In real world top of the grip level in respect speed(vertical load) and angle of attack should not be a small peak, more like plane. So there should some room to play a round

I think some of you have seen this, but i post it anyways:

"The horizontal axis measures slip angle, in degrees. The vertical axis measures lateral, cornering force, in Newtons. The deep axis measures vertical load on the contact patch, in KiloNewtons. We can see that these tyres have a peak at about 4 degrees of slip and that cornering force goes down as slip goes up on either side of the peak. On the high side of the peak, we have dynamic understeer, where turning the wheel more makes the situation worse. This is a form of instability in the control system of car and driver."
http://phors.locost7.info/phors22.htm (Dr Beckmans site, a math professor that invented forza physics system)

ItsHim

Now either people get conditioned in believing sims using this model (which saves doing original research) are more accurate than others. Or this model is in fact the most accurate and practical to use, and other developers act just plain stupid in not using it. Or the processing power of consoles is not big enough to implement Pacejka "magic formulas" so they have to come up with a more efficient or a more general formula.

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I think formula is stll bit too heavy for real time play. If i remember right, Beckman invented simpler equation that is very like the original and is used with forza. Or course you can allways store values to matrix and interpolate as you need something in between.

Edit: it seems netKar uses the real formula but consoles are consoles and NetKar graphics are not quite GT material. Maybe some day we can have the best of both worlds.

RedBaron

After whole afternoon with both cars without be able to do even one single piece of drift with my G25, I just came to conclusion that they gone mad with physics. It's like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Calm driving physics has now good feel and even that low speed switch to "sled" physics is gone. But this completely ends with the moment you go over limit, namely into first oversteer. There is no thing you can do which can hold the drift or return it to normal state. It's just over then. Even if you completely release the gas pedal or fully countersteer, rear wheels are on ice now and you can just make bye to your rear end.

They already made step into right direction with GT5P Spec III Professional physics and if they solved that low speed "sled" problem which perceived from GT4, that physics would be perfect for me. It had its inertia feel, understeer and oversteer exactly in situations according to real life driving and car were perfectly controllable, yet you could do whatever you could do with real car, really.

And now this? OMG, If the full game is anything like this, then NO, THANKS.

There are things that are better, but this little progress is dear-bought for many really bad things.

Even graphics are worse. The actual HDR lightning showed its weakness and looks especially horrible with this Indianopolis track. There are almost no 3D objects on this track, tribunes are from 2D constructions, there are maybe seven trees on the track and all of them are crossed cardboards with pixels instead of leaves, OMG! Nothing, really nothing looks real except two Nissans, that glass building next to start and the numbered tower with rusty sediments underneath. Everything else looks like aged hardcore PC sim from 90's.

PD lost themselves somewhere between their own uncertainty and lack of solid goals, content megalomania, forum fan cryings and unability to set the team from real specialists and get rid of those old friends with mind frozen in times of GT1. They try to do everything and nothing well. They fail in one department after another. It was obvious with car sounds and AI, now they are in the end even with physics and graphics. One and only thing better than competition now are car models. And that's really sad.

I feel in my bones that without any new blood and thinking, that whole big GT5 game will turn into universal fiasco. I have really fear of it now, guys. My poor GT...

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Seriously?
Drifting is easier than ever now, while being more realistic.
I have no complaints about the physics, they are improved in EVERY way.
I don't feel the need to play LFS, GTR2, or Rfactor anymore because the physics in this Time Trial feel more like a real sim, and feel more like real track racing.. are you using a controller?

I used my controller with this as well, and its much easier to control the car than GT5P with the Dualshock 3, but with the G27 its harder in some ways because of the improved realism, but also easier because the cars drive more like they should now.

I think your over-reacting, and its taking you awhile to get used to the upgraded physics.. I hope for your sake that you grow to love the new physics, buy GT5 and have a absolute blast with the game.. also note how each car will feel different, so I'm sure you'll end up happy with the full release also because of that.

As for the graphics.. I didn't expect much improvement over GT5P, as GT5P is such a beautiful looking game.. the cars look better, and the track textures look good along with some trackside objects/structures, but it could look a little better.. still looks good enough for me at least, but also keep in mind that other tracks would probably show off more than this 203 MB Time Trial competition, I'm sure a full-out demo would represent better graphical quality as well, but thats not what this is about.

z06fun

Having driven a whole lot of different cars as high performance driving instructor over the last 10 years, my feeling is that the demo physics are even better that prologue.

However they still don't seem to have one thing correct. Its whatever causes the normal 370z to spin its tires in 3rd while turning. It doesn't have that kind of horsepower to weight that it should be doing that real easily. It may be just that they have over done the whole tire non linearity, and the weight transfered to the rear under throttle doesn't really give the rear more grip like it should (or reduce the front grip like it should either)

In the demo you can see easy evidence of this being wrong because you can spin the tires in 1st just going straight by hitting the gas- even when you are already moving. Very unrealistic for a car of this power level -unless you were in the rain or something.

They have this wrong in prologue too where many rear drive cars will spin there tires in upper gears -like the mid engined (lots of weight over the drive wheels) NSX in 4th gear on S2's with hard turning.

Was really hoping they improved this area. Its strange because it seems like the N3's have very little grip for acceleration, compared to the lateral/braking grip they have. Lateral and braking grip seem to be in good proportion to each other, which is great.

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Perfectly said. It CAN break the tires loose in third, or even fourth, but it's not something that'll be happening by accident all the time to a race car driver.

And as for the weight transfer not adding rear grip, this has been a problem in GT games forever, although I will say there is SOME gain from increasing throttle gently and evenly, it seems as though it's all speed-related and not throttle related. in other words, it's just a little harder to spin the tires at 20 then it was 10, regardless, instead of launching properly adding grip for you.

And I have to say it: I'm not disappointed that drifting is so difficult in the TT demo. I'd much rather drifters gravitate to another game like Forza or NFS. I had joined a Forza 3 online party with Mustang from here, and some ninyhead was drifting while we were racing. It would have been okay if he was last, but I was behind him and trying to get around, and taking a chance for a pass on an upcoming turn, he drifted into me and took us both out. It also looked completely fake. Meh. I don't want to go through this nonsense in GT5. I hope at the very least there are drift only servers they can all flock to.

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If you cannot drift realistically, you can't drive realistically. Drifting real cars, do drivers not use the same set of physics as racing drivers? They MUST be able to coincide, whether you or I like it or not.
I agree with you about disliking it though.

the problem with the physics is a lack of feedback, and the transition is too quick from grip to no grip, it's almost like a switch.

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Feedback isn't really physics. It is, somewhat, but what feedback do you want? You want a Corvette's feedback? A BMW's? Or do you really think they can (would it even be possible on a gaming console?) to implement every single different cars real feedback?
Maybe you have my Buick's feedback - I can't feel a damn thing through that wheel.


EDIT: on the subject of tires breaking loose to easily.
I do believe some of it is from putting in the wrong amount of a control, whether it's gas or turning, but to that I must say, for anyone with a license, when was the last time you accidentally floored it when you were trying for 85% throttle in a real car? Not so much a problem with a wheel, once you get used to it, but with a controller, much more of a problem.

CoolColJ

the problem with the physics is a lack of feedback, and the transition is too quick from grip to no grip, it's almost like a switch.

Go and try Netkar pro, that too me has the best physics of all the games I've played. When the car starts to slide, you can tell when it will, and you can control it. You can really take the car to the limit and feel what's going on. It just feels right. But here in this time trial it's a guessing game

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Spot on ^

Firstly, I'd just like to point out hard DOES NOT equal realism, if you want a hard game, a challenge, I am fairly sure GT5 will offer that, however, the problem comes when people try to pass off hard as realistic, because its not.

Anyone who has driven a high performance car, on track, knows that cars just don't react to loss of traction like they do in the GT5 TT demo.

There are some serious fundemental issues with the tyre physics in GT5TTD, the suspension and weight transfer physics are much improved over previous GT's, but there is still a big problem with the tyres.

There seems to be issues with the incremental loss of traction from the tyres, the slip angles seem very much all or nothing, its almost like the tyres are made of solid rubber, because once there let go, they let go very, very quckly with no warning, and little chance of being able to hold the car.

Yes, I am sure GT5 will be a very, very good game, and will prove a challenge to a lot of people, and as far as realism goes, GT5 has a LONG way to go to even match up to its competition, let alone exceed it.

TrievelA7X

Feedback isn't really physics. It is, somewhat, but what feedback do you want? You want a Corvette's feedback? A BMW's? Or do you really think they can (would it even be possible on a gaming console?) to implement every single different cars real feedback?
Maybe you have my Buick's feedback - I can't feel a damn thing through that wheel.
.

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FFB should take it's telemetry from what is happening in the game engine. I just does not have to be so real to every so car differently. I would be happy if there was some clear feedback when car understeers and oversteers. Loosing grip is really the major thing to watch out when racing. If close my eyes and ears i sure do not know what car i am driving in forza or lfs, but i will know if car understeers or oversteers.

All GT really needed was a bit of fine tuning with GT5p physics and add all the content (cars, tracks etc..) and I don't think I would ever leave the house. My hopes are starting to fade...

I find myself going back to GT5p and it's like I feel it's a classic already, I feel like "damn what this could of been". If when the full gt5 comes out and the physics are still destroyed, knowing the only way I can enjoy GT again is to go back to GT5p but honestly that's quite a depressing thought because it's not a full game.

I've explained my thoughts about the physics and some people agree that their flawed, but the majority of people still seem to praise it which is just as equally depressing. Some saying that's its even easier to drift! (using a controller yes, but still not easier). I'm amazed it's not the other way around, that the majority are not biting saying the physics are flawed please pd fix it so on a so forth and only some saying it's real.

I think I'm giving up, it's not like I can show everyone that the physics are flawed, people will still agree with one another no matter what...Instead of coming on here looking for GT news frequently, I'll probably stop now and when the full game is released I'll check it out and see if it's improved. It's such a slap to the face when relying on the one driving game that you know will blow your socks off and can't wait to play, to turn out badly. Forza doesn't do it for me, PC sims aren't really games. Fun to drive for a bit but there's no game elements. For eg. A decent career mode or buying cars that you can modify and tune up with the money you earnt in races etc etc...that's half the fun. Buying a stock GT-R with 280bhp then modifying it to have over 700bhp, this you cannot do in other (non-arcade) games/sims besides forza.

Here's hoping...