demo physics discussion

  • Thread starter BLACK86
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Jay
I'll just repeat what I said in another thread:

actually find the car sticks quite well (except when you hit the grass) but if you enter corners too fast or try to heavy trail brake while turning in you will understeer quite heavily. Push it through the corners hard, apply too much throttle and you will overcome the little traction you have left. All seems natural to me.

To me people problems with it doesn't come down to how realistic the actual physics are but they don't have the 'feel' for it yet. GT requires you to sense what the car is doing in totally different way to real life. Many games put it in the wheel, when the car starts oversteer or understeering the wheel strength gives out so you know you're pushing too hard and you ease off avoiding the problem. In GT, the wheel doesn't do this as a warning and you must be aware of the cars slip angle at all times along with the tyre sounds to know exactly what it is doing.

Once you have honed your senses in GT it is quite easy and a joy. To be honest I find the 370Z to be more of a understeery car with oversteer only coming if you are on the edge of grip and exceeding the slight slip angle, something that is easily corrected.




Like I said, last night I went out of my way to test the 370Z against a whole bunch of grip tests and it comes up authentic. I find the car not eager to spin you around at all unless you attempt to take the car on a corner flatout with fully loaded tyres and just mashing down the throttle. I remember someone saying it wheelspins in a straight line in 2nd gear, this is totally false unless you just came out of the grass or sand.
IMO people having problems are taking corners too fast and too eager to get back on throttle, or they haven't aquired the fine throttle skills to keep the car on a slip angle, or they just can't sense the car when you're exceeding the slip angle and because of this are too slow to counter or prevent the oversteer.
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Can't help but wonder, after reading your opinion, what your ranking is on your country's leaderboard ?
 
that's a shame..he could of saved it though, watch his steering work.

Anyways..

darkblu I haven't seen that video but thankyou. How embarassed would you feel lol. As for the 370z, your first thought wouldn't be "the torque must have been bumped up for the demo". There is no way I would think a stock 370z would have that much available torque at such a low rpm therefore I sat there in shock with a *facepalm*
 
I'm pretty sure I saw Jay's PSN ID in the top 20 last time I looked. Unless there's another GTP player with VIPER in their PSN ID.
 
Having spent another couple of hours with the 370z, I would venture this comment: I rarely drive such a "crappy" car in a racing game & I'm guessing nor do most other people - most of the time is spent driving "racier" cars with better tires or downforce, or both. Pushing a car like the 370z hard on a race track IRL, it probably is going to feel as squirrely as it does in GT5D.

In the TT everyone is trying to push the car absolutely to the limit - more so than they would in a multi-lap online race, & certainly more than they would IRL - so it's not altogether surprising they end up spinning the car a lot. Back off the performance level a bit & the car is much more stable.
 
what gets me is once the back starts to slip and you counter steer, like if you have feedback set to high like me(or even not that high), counter steering is as hard as turning the car normally, the wheel weight is way too heavy when counter steering, with ps on it should be light....this is the only problem i have, cant remember if gt5p was like this too. i could get used to it obviously, just takes practice. but dont know if i can be bothered.

edit in dirt 2 they actually have a wheel weight adjustment scale, its great. getting back to the demo i have a porsche wheel and drift mode actually alleviates this problem alot, but i want to be in the same boat as every1 else so dont use it
 
Biggles
Having spent another couple of hours with the 370z, I would venture this comment: I rarely drive such a "crappy" car in a racing game & I'm guessing nor do most other people - most of the time is spent driving "racier" cars with better tires or downforce, or both. Pushing a car like the 370z hard on a race track IRL, it probably is going to feel as squirrely as it does in GT5D.

In the TT everyone is trying to push the car absolutely to the limit - more so than they would in a multi-lap online race, & certainly more than they would IRL - so it's not altogether surprising they end up spinning the car a lot. Back off the performance level a bit & the car is much more stable.
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Indeed. 👍
 
I find that people deep down don't want to admit the bad sides. I find that the attitude is "I'll get used to it and I'm sure I'll enjoy it". No, it's meant to be when you first play it, you enjoy it most and are blown away and want to keep driving. Same with getting into a car you have never driven before, like for example test driving a car from a dealership, you are generally happy and feel excited driving it.

I hope people on here aren't just agreeing that the physics are right for the sake of agreeing. For example a new popular song is out and all your friends like it and you don't, yet you say you like it because everybody else does. I personally hate this (I'm not saying people are doing this for sure, but I hope they're not).

At the end of the day, YOU are going to buy GT, YOU have waited all this time for it, do you really want to be disappointed or do you want the best damn game that you ever played? Be brutally honest, just because its from PD and KY is considered a god, it doesn't mean it's perfect! if you think something is crap, say it! because you are going to be stuck with it if we don't speak up. Pretend that KY has come to these forums and has said "GT Planet, I want all your members feedback and how we can improve it, tell us what's crap and what's good". I bet then, everybody will finally dig deep down inside and tell us exactly what they thing should be fixed etc...even all the players that think the physics are right, I bet even they will open up and say it's not, telling us their exact thoughts.

Let's face it the physics are not right. They can never be. Lets now imagine you never played the new physics and the new demo had the same physics as GT5p physics, people will still claim that it's accurate. And I bet when Spec III was released the majority loved the physics and all this was going on aswell. I can't convince people that the physics are mucked up, all I can do is hope people see it and speak up about it.
 
Bekimche, just face it, not everyone agrees with you, you keep trying to find reasons why and now are hinting at brand loyalty and peer pressure.

Many of us have given explanations as to why we like it or think it is good, I still don't understand what issues you have, would be nice if you would show a video of this odd behaviour.

And no by the way I don't think the physics are perfect, I am yet to find any sim that I think is.
 
Bekimche
I find that people deep down don't want to admit the bad sides. I find that the attitude is "I'll get used to it and I'm sure I'll enjoy it". No, it's meant to be when you first play it, you enjoy it most and are blown away and want to keep driving. Same with getting into a car you have never driven before, like for example test driving a car from a dealership, you are generally happy and feel excited driving it.

I hope people on here aren't just agreeing that the physics are right for the sake of agreeing. For example a new popular song is out and all your friends like it and you don't, yet you say you like it because everybody else does. I personally hate this (I'm not saying people are doing this for sure, but I hope they're not).

At the end of the day, YOU are going to buy GT, YOU have waited all this time for it, do you really want to be disappointed or do you want the best damn game that you ever played? Be brutally honest, just because its from PD and KY is considered a god, it doesn't mean it's perfect! if you think something is crap, say it! because you are going to be stuck with it if we don't speak up. Pretend that KY has come to these forums and has said "GT Planet, I want all your members feedback and how we can improve it, tell us what's crap and what's good". I bet then, everybody will finally dig deep down inside and tell us exactly what they thing should be fixed etc...even all the players that think the physics are right, I bet even they will open up and say it's not, telling us their exact thoughts.

Let's face it the physics are not right. They can never be. Lets now imagine you never played the new physics and the new demo had the same physics as GT5p physics, people will still claim that it's accurate. And I bet when Spec III was released the majority loved the physics and all this was going on aswell. I can't convince people that the physics are mucked up, all I can do is hope people see it and speak up about it.
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If people like the demo and like the physics, you're not going to convince them otherwise. You might not like them and that's fine, but other people clarly do and you need to accept that, because no amount of whining will make people suddenly stop enjoying it.
 
Tapey, read my last sentence. And my god where did you get whining from? They are opinions. This is a discussion forum. I am not a child to whinge, whinging is a completely different thing.
 
they're stuck on Pro. I understand it's just a demo and in the full version we will hopefulyl be able to select Standard physics because I'm not a proffessional racing driver like most of you here I happen to suck! Well personally I think I do well with the controller but I tried with the wheel just earlier on and I could not believe how much I really suck. It's too hard. Pro physics are for pro people. Honestly I couldn't control the car it feels very real.

So when the full version comes out its Standard phsyics for me and my trusty sixaxis :D
 
I know how hard the controller is when trying to regulate the throttle.
Is the steering wheel input awkward too, I don't have a wheel btw.
That would be a shame if both input methods suck.
You don't have to be a proffessional driver to keep a car on track. Only when driving to the limit should seperate the men from the boys.
I can drive in real life and this is the real driving simulator so what gives with my apparent suckage.
 
Heath_1
they're stuck on Pro. I understand it's just a demo and in the full version we will hopefulyl be able to select Standard physics because I'm not a proffessional racing driver like most of you here I happen to suck! Well personally I think I do well with the controller but I tried with the wheel just earlier on and I could not believe how much I really suck. It's too hard. Pro physics are for pro people. Honestly I couldn't control the car it feels very real.

So when the full version comes out its Standard phsyics for me and my trusty sixaxis :D
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Don't worry Sony has said in there blog the full game with have all the options (physics, assists, tyres).
 
Bekimche
No, it's meant to be when you first play it, you enjoy it most and are blown away and want to keep driving.
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Not this demo. This demo is meant to weed out bad drivers and look for the best of the best. They made it difficult on purpose. :) Yes, the stock 370Z is slippery on N3s (I managed to spin out in 3rd gear doing 50kmh/35mph, and I seriously doubt it will do that in real life), but I think it will behave completely different on say...S1's. So, are the physics flawed or is it just a (deliberately) bad setup? ;)

The only bad thing I have encountered so far is the small window of opportunity for countermeasures if you lose the car (that's certainly not realistic, with any tires). But I'm not going to say the physics are flawed until I have a chance to try some different settings like S-tires/etc. Given the limited options we have at this time I don't think anyone can make a definitive statement regarding possible flaws in the physics department. They gave us opposite ends of the spectrum, but nothing in between. ;)
 
I dont know about anyone else but this is my lap by lap opinion of this demo

I hate this game
I love this game
I love this game
I hate this game
I hate this game
I love this game

etc
etc

I am looking forward to trying the full game when it comes out using a FWD car on professional physics. I think only then I could (personally) decide if the physics were close to the mark etc.

I think just now as my real life experiece in FR cars is ALOT less than FF cars I cant be sure how close or how far off the mark it is.

On another note the one thing that really annoys me in the demo is returning to the tarmac from the grass. At low speed regardless of what way my wheels are pointing I seem to do a 180 degree spin on contact with the track - 95% of the time the spin is in the opoosite direction than seems possible. The other thing that annoys me is when you hit a barrier at very low speed (after a slide over the grass) and the car does an instant 180 on contact.
 
dakster
Would have thought things like this would have ironed out at this late stage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CycnIzLCzOY
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what stage? this demo is said to have the latest driving physics, and that's about it. a potential rollover situation from an impact with a ultra-massive barrier on the track (which somebody apparently forgot to assign proper weight to) are most likely not handled in this demo at all. neither is damage and other 'extreme' conditions which we know the final product will feature.
 
Not really a glitch, if you get a 1/2kg solid box and run over it with no car damage you are gunna get airborne. The suspension looked good when it landed.
 
Biggles
Having spent another couple of hours with the 370z, I would venture this comment: I rarely drive such a "crappy" car in a racing game & I'm guessing nor do most other people - most of the time is spent driving "racier" cars with better tires or downforce, or both. Pushing a car like the 370z hard on a race track IRL, it probably is going to feel as squirrely as it does in GT5D.

In the TT everyone is trying to push the car absolutely to the limit - more so than they would in a multi-lap online race, & certainly more than they would IRL - so it's not altogether surprising they end up spinning the car a lot. Back off the performance level a bit & the car is much more stable.
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At first, I thought the 370 understeered way too much, but as you've noted, it needs to be driven at a certain threshold to display it's character. Turn in can be nice and crisp, and throttle induced oversteer progressive, only if your very carefully exploring the limits.

Toss the car into a corner too hard and you'll feel like it plows like a ff car. Mash the throttle on corner exit and it'll come around on you and you won't know why. The physics are deeper than prologue and it's sometimes like peeling and onion. You find a certain limit, then you push a little more and then there is a new layer and the car gets more and more nasty to handle.

I will say ffb is still a bit numb(on my dfp/ffb@10), the tuned z is a much better overall showcase for the physics imho. This being said although I'm wanting better ffb response, I have to remind myself this is a road car with power steering and such. You only need to get out onto the roads and drive around a little. Yeah you can feel some bumps through the wheel but in reality it's a bit sterile. This seems to be accurately represented in gt for better or worse.

Once we can drive around a few other cars, on other tires, with the freedom to play with suspension stuff it will be easier to judge on the full capability of gt5. If the tuned z is an indication, race cars are going to be awsome.
 
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I still dont understand everyone saying "you cant feel when the car loses its back and starts to spin", okay, im driving with a DS3, but shouldnt this make it even worse? I already pulled the e-brake with both cars at speeds over 100 kph, i brought them both to a 90° angle to the road and recovered them both with just lifting the throttle and countersteering. Of course the demo has physics bugs, but its not a final build and nor is there any perfect game out there. In Forza 3 the cars flip way too fast (especially on the Nordschleife), in LFS you can flip 1000 times with one hit in a safety barrier, in GTR Evo. the cars have no weight when you roll over and the cars behave awkward in crashes (same in GTL) and so on.
 
Bekimche

Unfortunately you didn't comment on any of the four videos I posted. I didn't just throw them in for cheap laughs (though the first corner crash made me laugh very, very hard).

1st video:
On exit the back steps out, the car gets caught on the grass. In the sand trap traction is very low. Driver presumably tries to counter-steer intuitively (and far too slowly as I learned from my driver training), looses it completely and goes in the wall.

2nd video:
Too fast at mid corner, driver slams the brakes because "I'm too fast I want to stop. Damn car doesn't stop I keep the brakes locked up!" Looses steering, ends up in the wall.

3rd video:

BMW's back steps out. Driver gets caught by over-correcting.

4th video:

FF oversteers in the wet. Traction on the front tyres bigger than on the rear. You'll only get under-steer in FF? Over-steer is exclusive to FR? That's what I always thought.

Now if I hold the opinion that GT5:TT is capable of portraying such conditions and that the same mechanics used in real life to save the car do apply in the game, I call the "physics" sound. Even after 30 minutes with a controller I came to say: yes, that's probably done very well.

In my view, real life physics are quite rubbish at times. Unfortunately I'm not a creationist so I can blame no-one on designing them the way they are.

It took me some time to learn that under-steer is not cured by turning the wheel even more in the desired direction, The front tyres don't grip, so turning the wheel more will make things even worse.

Now you try to tell the next man in the street that if he wants to make the car go left he's supposed to decrease steering input. To me, absolutely counter-intuitive.

I was a passenger in a Porsche Cup race car. 1st lesson learned: there are constant g forces. Either you are accelerating, or braking or turning into a corner. There is hardly a moment where you are just going in a straight line at constant speed. 2nd lesson learned: the amount of inputs and the speed of the execution is just mind-boggling. I don't think my driver really pushed hard, but it was enough to show me how skilled you have to be.

It's not: oh, I turn the wheel a bit to the right and see what happens. Oh, maybe a bit more to the left, that'll do it. It was the slightest hint of oversteer - quick jerk at the wheel, possibly a bit of throttle control, and the car was reigned it. He did not react to the car - the car reacted to him like he wanted it.

Now how on earth will you ever portray that in a video game?

I really love the footage of Kazunori racing in real life. He's very precise, very disciplined, very focused. I like to do such stuff and I like to race my console games that way. Furthermore I like to do it for an hour or four over and over again. Concentration, precission, keep the laptimes consistant. Call me James May. Am I wrong in saying that Kazunori maybe designs his game in a way he thinks racing is "right"? If so, he and I share the same philosophy.

How do I race, online? What's the good stuff? Wrestling the car? Certainly not. It's all about tactics for me. Guess what line the car in front of you will take, know when he is prone to enter a corner too hot and get yourself in a position to capitalise on that. Always know where the others are behind you. Hell, sometimes I feel I look more in the rear-view mirror than through the windshield. That's racing to me. Learn the track, see where you have good spots to overtake. Try different lines so you know them before you have to make them up in an instant. That's racing to me.

Now, to conclude my rant:

If you think the physics are flawed, you haven't made your case in my opinion. You refer to real life, yet if I or anyone else illustrates than in real life things do go wrong, you just ignore those arguments.

GT5:TT physics are rubbish and nothing like real life? Well, reality is no fixed matter, everyone perceives reality slightly different.

In my world, the glimpse I got from GT5:TT is good enough to portray reality as I know it.

If there are better games: do enjoy them. Praise them.

But please take into consideration you will not be able to change an up to this date very successful video game franchise because you think the gameplay is flawed by your standards. This is not going to happen.

It's also not going to happen that PD discloses the maths behind his game-engine, so everything you and I can do is compare the gameplay to what we think is a benchmark for video-games.

The Senna video was posted quite often, he and the NSX on Suzuka. Look at the sheer amount of inputs he does (and the slippers and socks). This is impossible to do in any console game I know. You just don't get the amount of feedback you would need (granted you are skilled enough - I'm not) to do this. You have physical memory of how things should feel and how things are feeling at that very instant.

What you get in video games is eye-hand-eye feedback. Throw in some good measure of audio feedback, hopefully. Add FFB to train muscle memory. But you are still sitting motionless in your living room. The eye is unable to tell the brain quickly enough what's going on. You catch a ball not because you see it, but because you know where it will be and your hand knows where it has to be in order to catch it. You catch a ball without really being aware where it is.

You master a car at the very limits in real life before it reaches the threshold, because you know in advance where it will end up. Because your whole body is used as one giant instrument.

To conclude my rant: I hold the very opinion that real life rules, call them "physics" if you must, are complex enough to re-create a real life feel.

The feel good and appropriate. It will take me probably a couple of hundred of hours to master them. But they fit my taste and my perception of reality.

So, no. You can't convince me of any flaws grave enough to disqualify GT5 from being very sound in the "physics" department.

It's a video game, but I already knew that.
 
G.T.Ace, if you get a chance try it out with a logi wheel:tup: I am getting feed back, but the line to cross is very narrow with the street z. Over agressive driving is punished swiftly and without remorse:crazy:

I'm using visual cues from attitude of the car in relation to movement down the tarmac in cockpit view as well as the juttering that occurs seemingly to convey not only bumps but cornering gs.
 
I cant use a wheel because of a handicap, its impossible for me unfortunately.
To correct the oversteer i just steer instinctively, i dont even need the sound (i often play at 2 or 3 am and i dont want to annoy anyone), i just feel when the car starts to drift or spin and i correct it, which i found a lot harder in GT5:P by the way, because you dont feel so connected to the road there.
 
ItsHim
Bekimche

Unfortunately you didn't comment on any of the four videos I posted. I didn't just throw them in for cheap laughs (though the first corner crash made me laugh very, very hard).

1st video:
On exit the back steps out, the car gets caught on the grass. In the sand trap traction is very low. Driver presumably tries to counter-steer intuitively (and far too slowly as I learned from my driver training), looses it completely and goes in the wall.

2nd video:
Too fast at mid corner, driver slams the brakes because "I'm too fast I want to stop. Damn car doesn't stop I keep the brakes locked up!" Looses steering, ends up in the wall.

3rd video:

BMW's back steps out. Driver gets caught by over-correcting.

4th video:

FF oversteers in the wet. Traction on the front tyres bigger than on the rear. You'll only get under-steer in FF? Over-steer is exclusive to FR? That's what I always thought.

Now if I hold the opinion that GT5:TT is capable of portraying such conditions and that the same mechanics used in real life to save the car do apply in the game, I call the "physics" sound. Even after 30 minutes with a controller I came to say: yes, that's probably done very well.

In my view, real life physics are quite rubbish at times. Unfortunately I'm not a creationist so I can blame no-one on designing them the way they are.

It took me some time to learn that under-steer is not cured by turning the wheel even more in the desired direction, The front tyres don't grip, so turning the wheel more will make things even worse.

Now you try to tell the next man in the street that if he wants to make the car go left he's supposed to decrease steering input. To me, absolutely counter-intuitive.

I was a passenger in a Porsche Cup race car. 1st lesson learned: there are constant g forces. Either you are accelerating, or braking or turning into a corner. There is hardly a moment where you are just going in a straight line at constant speed. 2nd lesson learned: the amount of inputs and the speed of the execution is just mind-boggling. I don't think my driver really pushed hard, but it was enough to show me how skilled you have to be.

It's not: oh, I turn the wheel a bit to the right and see what happens. Oh, maybe a bit more to the left, that'll do it. It was the slightest hint of oversteer - quick jerk at the wheel, possibly a bit of throttle control, and the car was reigned it. He did not react to the car - the car reacted to him like he wanted it.

Now how on earth will you ever portray that in a video game?

I really love the footage of Kazunori racing in real life. He's very precise, very disciplined, very focused. I like to do such stuff and I like to race my console games that way. Furthermore I like to do it for an hour or four over and over again. Concentration, precission, keep the laptimes consistant. Call me James May. Am I wrong in saying that Kazunori maybe designs his game in a way he thinks racing is "right"? If so, he and I share the same philosophy.

How do I race, online? What's the good stuff? Wrestling the car? Certainly not. It's all about tactics for me. Guess what line the car in front of you will take, know when he is prone to enter a corner too hot and get yourself in a position to capitalise on that. Always know where the others are behind you. Hell, sometimes I feel I look more in the rear-view mirror than through the windshield. That's racing to me. Learn the track, see where you have good spots to overtake. Try different lines so you know them before you have to make them up in an instant. That's racing to me.

Now, to conclude my rant:

If you think the physics are flawed, you haven't made your case in my opinion. You refer to real life, yet if I or anyone else illustrates than in real life things do go wrong, you just ignore those arguments.

GT5:TT physics are rubbish and nothing like real life? Well, reality is no fixed matter, everyone perceives reality slightly different.

In my world, the glimpse I got from GT5:TT is good enough to portray reality as I know it.

If there are better games: do enjoy them. Praise them.

But please take into consideration you will not be able to change an up to this date very successful video game franchise because you think the gameplay is flawed by your standards. This is not going to happen.

It's also not going to happen that PD discloses the maths behind his game-engine, so everything you and I can do is compare the gameplay to what we think is a benchmark for video-games.

The Senna video was posted quite often, he and the NSX on Suzuka. Look at the sheer amount of inputs he does (and the slippers and socks). This is impossible to do in any console game I know. You just don't get the amount of feedback you would need (granted you are skilled enough - I'm not) to do this. You have physical memory of how things should feel and how things are feeling at that very instant.

What you get in video games is eye-hand-eye feedback. Throw in some good measure of audio feedback, hopefully. Add FFB to train muscle memory. But you are still sitting motionless in your living room. The eye is unable to tell the brain quickly enough what's going on. You catch a ball not because you see it, but because you know where it will be and your hand knows where it has to be in order to catch it. You catch a ball without really being aware where it is.

You master a car at the very limits in real life before it reaches the threshold, because you know in advance where it will end up. Because your whole body is used as one giant instrument.

To conclude my rant: I hold the very opinion that real life rules, call them "physics" if you must, are complex enough to re-create a real life feel.

The feel good and appropriate. It will take me probably a couple of hundred of hours to master them. But they fit my taste and my perception of reality.

So, no. You can't convince me of any flaws grave enough to disqualify GT5 from being very sound in the "physics" department.

It's a video game, but I already knew that.
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Sigh...

No offence ItsHim but did you learn to drive not long ago? It seems like you are just figuring out how a car behaves in real life and its some sort of a shock to you. You thought that oversteer can occur only on FR cars, no it can occur on any drive type. Even FF, I have owned an FF car (and still do) and I got oversteer many times, it doesn't behave the same way as a FR but it IS oversteer.

Right now, I only thought you put up those videos for entertainment...they have nothing to do with what I was saying, I was talking about the oversteer physics and that it reacts unrealistically and is very unforgiving. I know things go wrong in real life, I have seen many unfortunate crashes. The videos do nothing for me, I know how a car behaves and will behave. I have driven and drifted many cars before and it isn't as difficult as it is portrayed in the game I can assure you. Sure it can be done like that video I saw (there are some obvious physics flaws watching it), but when actually driving it doesn't feel right. Any drifter should be able to pick it up within 5 minutes of getting used to the game, but the game makes it seem that you need to be Keiichi Tsuchiya to even attempt a drift (I don't think even he would be able to pick it up). I'll say it again, drifts are not as difficult as it is portrayed in the game. Yes you need skills, but not over the top god like skills and reflexes.

I have also been in some high performance cars with a ridiculous amount of power, I have been taken for a couple of drift laps in a competition drift car (an R32 GT-R converted to rear wheel drive with over 500hp, amazing experience), I have driven snappy cars like the S2000, which react similar to the 370z with its sudden oversteer you have to be quick to catch it, but it still manageable, still much easier than it is portrayed in the game. I know how a car should behave. The car doesn't talk to you, in LFS I'm sorry but it does.

All I'm saying is that the oversteer physics need to be worked on, the rest seem very good. A few tire physics fine tuning (because if you try to spin a donut, it acts retarded) and that's it, GT will be absolutely fantastic. I am not trying to convince people, as I have said before, no matter what I say it won't make a difference to someone else's opinion. This is my opinion, and I believe it to be true about the oversteer problem. Will it be fixed? Who knows, as of now I can only hope.

PS. If it sounds as though I'm being a smartass or trying to offend anyone, I am not. It probably only comes out like that through writing, you can't really express tone of voice here
 
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Bekimche
Sigh...

No offence ItsHim but did you learn to drive not long ago? It seems like you are just figuring out how a car behaves in real life and its some sort of a shock to you. You thought that oversteer can occur only on FR cars, no it can occur on any drive type.
PS. If it sounds as though I'm being a smartass or trying to offend anyone, I am not. It probably only comes out like that through writing
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Non taken.

I hold a licence for 16 years, drive regularly on Autobahns at speeds what seem to be appropriate to me on public roads, have survived an accident I hadn't caused and do regular driver training twice a year to learn how to drive roadcars at the limit - limit as in situations you'll face in everyday life.
I can't track cars myself, and due to insurance reasons if I was to be injured on a race track, be it passenger or driver, I would have to face the consequences. As I do have responsibilities, I can't take that risk anymore.

I'm not a testosterone driven Über-male who has to show-off. Not that I think of you or anybody else on these forums as being one. My time in ER during my civil year and some volunteer work after that showed me very clearly that you can't expect people to know how to drive just by owning a driver's licence.

Being a real life race driver is not about pushing buttons. It's about being an athlete. The times when a Cockpit would be redesigned because Nigel Mansell wouldn't fit into it are gone. You have to train your whole body to cope with the demands of racing cars, and some of the folks succeeding in getting a spot at the second round of the Time Trial competition will be in for a nasty surprise no doubt.

That's all to show you that I take a very mature and realistic approach to driving and racing. I don't throw that over board just because it is GT, or any driving game.

I want it to be "real", because I want it to reflect that the same mechanics I experienced in real life also prove "right" in the game.

I didn't like the Forza 3 demo (not to start THAT argument, please) because letting the back hang out in an California seemed just too easy to me. Hell, I could even drift the Porsche especially round the last left hander easily.

I struggle to do that in controlled conditions with a 3 series BMW in real life. Yet in a certain game I was all of a sudden some bad ass driver. That does not compute.

What, on the other hand does very well, was GT:TT. I felt it put me in the spot I belonged. In theory, I had enough training to know what actions to take, to anticipate what my inputs will cause. Thus, my conclusion: that's a very good representation of real life.

Maybe it's because we two come from different starting points: you expect to succeed, while I expect to fail.

I expect not to be able to save a slide or come to the edge of the very limit straight away. I expect to fail very badly, but to learn to correct my mistakes. On a basic level, Forza 2 and GT4 and maybe even GT5:TT let me translate my real life knowledge to become a better video player.

So if you say over-steer is overdone in GT5:TT, then I have to say even with the TCS on I felt it was more or less what I have experienced and expected.

No hard feelings either way.

Sometimes we simply have to agree on disagreeing it seems 👍
 
I'm not a testosterone driven Über-male who has to show-off.
Click to expand...
Imaginary +rep. :lol:
Umlaute for the win. 8)

Thanks for your detailed post, this is exactly how i think it is too, without (i have to admit this) being able to drive a real car.
 

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