demo physics discussion

[CoolColJ]

Feedback isn't really physics. It is, somewhat, but what feedback do you want? You want a Corvette's feedback? A BMW's? Or do you really think they can (would it even be possible on a gaming console?) to implement every single different cars real feedback?
Maybe you have my Buick's feedback - I can't feel a damn thing through that wheel.


EDIT: on the subject of tires breaking loose to easily.
I do believe some of it is from putting in the wrong amount of a control, whether it's gas or turning, but to that I must say, for anyone with a license, when was the last time you accidentally floored it when you were trying for 85% throttle in a real car? Not so much a problem with a wheel, once you get used to it, but with a controller, much more of a problem.

Feedback isn't the right word I wanted to use. What I meant was, what the game was trying to communicate to me, for every control change I input. If I turn the wheel a certain way and press the pedal, it's hard to tell what I'll get at any point in time in relation to what I got the previous split second etc.
Sometimes I get grip, fine I move forward, sometimes I don't and I spin out

someone said this on the LFS forum - and it reflects my thoughts exactly

----

Theres something fundamentally unhappy about the way the car reacts at times. Theres no sign/feel of where the slip angle is on the tyres, you have 3 options:
Power down and the grip is there and away we go
Power down and the grip isnt there and off we go
tip-toe round the corner and arrive at the destination a week later.

Theres no middle ground, in LFS you can counter-steer your way out of smaller mistakes and take little loss, GT5 Demo currently spins you round at least 180 degrees.

Putting a number of fast (to your ability) laps together in LFS isnt that hard, but in this demo it does feel like you've got to be very lucky to complete a pushing lap without the car/tyres giving out on you and your lap is over.

 

[Wakkaman]

CoolcolJ ^

I agree totally. gt5 demo reminds me alot off gtr1 where you had the same problem kinda. One small mistake and you where off, you couldn't really correct the car intuitively.

That's where gt5tt isn't that good, it's not as intuitive compared 2 lfs and netker pro.

 

[ANFD]

I've explained my thoughts about the physics and some people agree that their flawed, but the majority of people still seem to praise it which is just as equally depressing.
I think I'm giving up, it's not like I can show everyone that the physics are flawed, people will still agree with one another no matter what ...

I wouldn't give up hope my friend First of all, I think the number of people who find the new physics flawed just a little, far out weigh the couple of guys who think it drifts great. The feedback from Z06 and a couple of others really describes what I was feeling and not able to articulate.

As well as the "lack of feel" I think part of my inability to respond quick enough with the G25 is tied to the 900 degrees of rotation. I never set my wheel up for that much and I have never had any problems reacting quickly enough in any game I've played. I'm hoping that the full release game will have many more optional adjustments for wheel and car set ups that we will be able to dial out a lot of the snap oversteer we seem to be experiencing in the demo.

No one so far has made mention of the physics in the new DIRT2 game as a basis for steering input comparisons. Even on slick surfaces, you can slide the car and make minute adjustments to your line in a very realistic manner.

 

[skazz]

I just downloaded the latest LFS demo build, and tried drifting the RWD demo car. I have to say that it was awfully easy with the default setup, and it's pretty difficult to mess things up - you just let go of the wheel and the front tyres sort themselves out and you're drifting.

I haven't had the opportunity to drift road cars in RL, so I really couldn't say how realistic this behaviour is, but it does seem a little *too* easy to hold slides. I recall watching various TV shows of guys being taught to drift, and it didn't seem to be normal to take a medium powered RWD car on a dry road with normal road tyres and drift it without a lot of practice. Prepared tyres or wet road would be a different matter!

 

[profi]

Firstly, I'd just like to point out hard DOES NOT equal realism, if you want a hard game, a challenge, I am fairly sure GT5 will offer that, however, the problem comes when people try to pass off hard as realistic, because its not.

Anyone who has driven a high performance car, on track, knows that cars just don't react to loss of traction like they do in the GT5 TT demo.

.

I absolutely agree..

 

[Exorcet]

^

Yes. IMO, the hardest driving games are acade ones, because there is no logical way to drive them. It was much harder for me to compete in NFSMW than it ever was in GT5P.

 

[Biggles]

I don't think it's that hard to drive fast in GT5D, but what's required is a lot of practice to learn the correct brake points & throttle/steering inputs because you're not getting a lot of feedback from the wheel. As with GT5P it feels like the tires are balls that have no inherent tendency to track & you just have to know where the limits of grip are & modulate the steering & throttle inputs accordingly. When I look at the replays, the car looks like it's reacting appropriately (with a bit less body-roll than I would expect in these cars). As I said before, this makes me think what is lacking is the FFB rather than the physics per se.

In SCC you can feel the wheels tracking & feel, through the FFB, when the tires start to slip & make corrections based on that information. In GT5D the grip information is very hard to make out through the FFB, which makes the TT a process of endless repetition to learn just how far - exactly - you can push the grip on each corner.

IMO, the hardest driving games are acade ones, because there is no logical way to drive them

I think some arcade games have a pretty logical driving model. I'm remembering PGR2 - the first racing game I tried - seemed to have a very consistent driving model. Shift, on the other hand, as far as I can make out, does not. It's almost as if there is one set of physics, pretty realistic, up to 80% performance, & then a completely different set of (unrealistic) physics that kicks in.

 

[Mermadium]

Is hard to tell how realistic is without driving the real car, but seems like the 370Z like to drift a little on corner entry based on this review.(although this is the nismo one)
http://motortrend.automotive.com/120278/112-0902-2010-nissan-nismo-370z-laguna-lap/index.html
and the fact no many people would drive as hard in the track as they do in gt, by the way in my little experience my car felt slower in the track than in the street, and i would not dare to push it as hard as a do playing video games so is kinda hard to judge.

 

[profi]

I don't think it's that hard to drive fast in GT5D, but what's required is a lot of practice to learn the correct brake points & throttle/steering inputs because you're not getting a lot of feedback from the wheel. As with GT5P it feels like the tires are balls that have no inherent tendency to track & you just have to know where the limits of grip are & modulate the steering & throttle inputs accordingly. When I look at the replays, the car looks like it's reacting appropriately (with a bit less body-roll than I would expect in these cars). As I said before, this makes me think what is lacking is the FFB rather than the physics per se.

In SCC you can feel the wheels tracking & feel, through the FFB, when the tires start to slip & make corrections based on that information. In GT5D the grip information is very hard to make out through the FFB, which makes the TT a process of endless repetition to learn just how far - exactly - you can push the grip on each corner.

I like it... so wheel-users have no force-feedback advantage against sixaxis users (like me)

 

[Biggles]

I like it... so wheel-users have no force-feedback advantage against sixaxis users (like me)

That might seem like a logical interpretation, but I'm not sure it's necessarily true. I get the feeling that, if anything, wheel users have a slight advantage in GT5P/D - perhaps due to the complexity of the physics. In SCC, I believe pad users have slight advantage because the game gives them some kind of steering assist that removes some of the complexity from the steering (I say this based on what others tell me, because I am not competent enough with a pad to judge).

Of all the racing games I have, IMO the one that gives the best feel for the basics (cockpit visuals, sound & "feel") of driving a car is Shift. That is the game I would put on for a complete noob to try my racing rig. Up to the 80% performance level when the (annoying) grip assistance kicks in & completely ruins the physics, Shift feels pretty good (& a noob isn't going to be pushing the car to higher performance levels). In comparison, put a noob on GT5P/D & they're going to run off the course constantly & slide all over the place, because the FFB cues are just too subtle & understated for them to pick up on it.

 

[xpfloyd]

Hi All,

Here is my 2p worth. I thought I was getting fairly decent at GT5P using my G25. I had got gold in all events apart from the cappuchino one (Really annoying) and was doing well on online races.

I then downloaded the GT5 TT and could not keep the car on the track for a long time, at one point last night I hated the game lol.

My main problem is that I have always used "Standard" physics on prologue and the jump for me to "professional" on TT is quite a big one.

After what feels like 1 million laps I have only managed to get down to a lap time of 1:39:333 on the tuned car. I simply cant see how im gonna get faster. My skill is lacking me thinks.

However with regards to physics (im NOT blaming my lack of skill on the physics) I just think something is wrong. It seems far to easy to spin out. There is no middle ground where you feel it going and correct and before you know it you are facing the wrong way on the grass. I appreciate that my throttle control in the game is prob adding to this problem but having drove alot of fast cars in real life and pushed them I have never had the rear leave me so easily before even in a FR car.

As I say just my 2p worth

PS - First post - Great website

Eddie

 

[Raitziger]

Welcome to forum. I have allways used pro physics and all gold in prologue. Prologue physics were quite ok to me. Now that i tried demo for 40min, i did not really have enough time to be comfortable with car. FFB info was lacking or something, but i could not feel the grip limits at all. It almost felt like i was driving knife on my throat Well im quite sure that it gets better after time (my driving, i think there is no chance at this point that full version will be any diffrent)

 

[Kin869]

Has anyone else noticed how the G25 jerks itself back and forth when you let go of it while going straight? It seems as if it's attempting to simulate resistance, but instead it just oscillates back and forth.

Here's a video of what I mean.

Is this normal? I've played LFS and Enthusia with my G25 and have never experienced anything like this.

 

[xpfloyd]

yes my G25 does this on GT5P and GT5TT. I just assumed it was normal. I think its when you hit a bump on the road the FFB activates and since you are not holding the wheel it turns a bit then oscilates from there.

If that makes sense

 

[Kin869]

I don't know about "normal," because this doesn't happen in real life when you hit a bump. The wheel bouncing back and forth just doesn't seem right to me.

Plus if you watch the video at 0:30, you'll see that it even oscillates at the beginning of the race when the wheel isn't straightened out.

As you can see in the video, the car seems unaffected by it, even under full braking. The real problem is when you are actually holding the wheel, because by some unknown force, something just keeps jerking your wheel left and right. That gets a bit annoying for me.

 

[xpfloyd]

I don't know about "normal," because this doesn't happen in real life when you hit a bump. The wheel bouncing back and forth just doesn't seem right to me.

Plus if you watch the video at 0:30, you'll see that it even oscillates at the beginning of the race when the wheel isn't straightened out.

As you can see in the video, the car seems unaffected by it, even under full braking. The real problem is when you are actually holding the wheel, because by some unknown force, something just keeps jerking your wheel left and right. That gets a bit annoying for me.

I did not mean "normal" in terms of compared to real life. I just meant that the G25 acting this way was "normal" in relation to all other G25's. Just dont let the wheel go and you wont notice it

Its just the way it is designed, The FFB simulates a vibration for the bump, if you are not holding it jerks in one direction, then since you are still not holding the wheel the cars wheels want to straighten up so it jerrks in the other and so on. The whole time FFB vibrations are being applied so it gets worse and worse.

When I am holding the wheel however I cannot feel these left and right jerks as they are not allowed to develop.

 

[Kin869]

I did not mean "normal" in terms of compared to real life. I just meant that the G25 acting this way was "normal" in relation to all other G25's. Just dont let the wheel go and you wont notice it

Ah I see, sorry I misunderstood.

Its just the way it is designed, The FFB simulates a vibration for the bump, if you are not holding it jerks in one direction

I understand that the wheel might pull to one side because of the different amount of grip on each tire (after hitting an even surface, etc), but shouldn't it just remain in that direction after it pulls, rather than bounce itself back and continuing bouncing?

When I am holding the wheel however I cannot feel these left and right jerks as they are not allowed to develop.

Yea, if I hold it really tight, then I can minimize the bounces but it's still rather annoying.

 

[Biggles]

The bottom line is, none of these games feels all that close to driving a car IRL. If it did, the average person could step into a cockpit with a G25 or other FFB wheel & feel reasonably at home with the physics. Anybody who has tried this with a friend will know that they don't feel at all comfortable with GT5P/D at first, or any other driving game for that matter.

What is more, I suspect that even a very experienced race driver isn't going to feel comfortable with game physics for quite a while. That's because the game is trying to translate a wide range of RL actions & reactions into the limited context of a video game.

Each game seems to have a slightly different focus in how it attempts this translation. As far as the physics are concerned, I feel that there's a lot of detail to GT5P/D, but the "feel" of the FFB is lacking. The fact that after spending hundreds of hours with GT5P, the physics feel "realistic", is partly due to the fact that familiarity makes them seem so. Other game developers may, legitimately, take a different approach which emphasizes slightly different aspects of the "realism" or "physics" of RL driving.

 

[GT4 genius]

Is it just me or do others notice more grip whilst driving over 'rubbered in' parts of the track more so than the normal parts? I'm sure you've all notice how little grip there is through the yellow markings on the edge of the back straight. Just curious because I thought I noticed it earlier and its not something I've seen in GT5P.

 

[GMTN]

The physics are "hard" and the FFB isn't close to real life this may be all true, but now the track times between real life and this game will be closer because of the consequences. No longer will people go to Laguna seca at incredible speeds and feel like they can handle the corkscrew, i'm sure damage will make people more wary because physics like this make people drive more conscious and aware.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Is it just me or do others notice more grip whilst driving over 'rubbered in' parts of the track more so than the normal parts? I'm sure you've all notice how little grip there is through the yellow markings on the edge of the back straight. Just curious because I thought I noticed it earlier and its not something I've seen in GT5P.

Hmmm, no, never felt this way.
The grip difference on the painted surface is great though.

 

[ANFD]

What is more, I suspect that even a very experienced race driver isn't going to feel comfortable with game physics for quite a while. That's because the game is trying to translate a wide range of RL actions & reactions into the limited context of a video game.

Each game seems to have a slightly different focus in how it attempts this translation. As far as the physics are concerned, I feel that there's a lot of detail to GT5P/D, but the "feel" of the FFB is lacking. The fact that after spending hundreds of hours with GT5P, the physics feel "realistic", is partly due to the fact that familiarity makes them seem so. Other game developers may, legitimately, take a different approach which emphasizes slightly different aspects of the "realism" or "physics" of RL driving.

I can vouch for this perspective. I have three friends who are very experienced professional race car drivers. One is a former IMSA champion, one is a race winner in the Star Mazda Series and one is a 2 time Speed World Challenge champion. Neither of them had raced in the virtual world. One of them is in his 60's, another in his 50's. None of them was willing to spend more than 5 minutes attempting to drive GT4 in my (G25) livingroom set up. None were able to do it instinctively right from the start. All three seemed to be "disgusted" by their lack of success and their ego's would not allow them to do it for more than 5 minutes ..... each getting out of the seat saying that it wasn't the least bit real.

I know there are lots of real world race car drivers who utilize the medium for learning tracks and entertainment, but I think that they had to have learned how to do it by practicing and adapting.

 

[Jay]

I'll just repeat what I said in another thread:

actually find the car sticks quite well (except when you hit the grass) but if you enter corners too fast or try to heavy trail brake while turning in you will understeer quite heavily. Push it through the corners hard, apply too much throttle and you will overcome the little traction you have left. All seems natural to me.

To me people problems with it doesn't come down to how realistic the actual physics are but they don't have the 'feel' for it yet. GT requires you to sense what the car is doing in totally different way to real life. Many games put it in the wheel, when the car starts oversteer or understeering the wheel strength gives out so you know you're pushing too hard and you ease off avoiding the problem. In GT, the wheel doesn't do this as a warning and you must be aware of the cars slip angle at all times along with the tyre sounds to know exactly what it is doing.

Once you have honed your senses in GT it is quite easy and a joy. To be honest I find the 370Z to be more of a understeery car with oversteer only coming if you are on the edge of grip and exceeding the slight slip angle, something that is easily corrected.




Like I said, last night I went out of my way to test the 370Z against a whole bunch of grip tests and it comes up authentic. I find the car not eager to spin you around at all unless you attempt to take the car on a corner flatout with fully loaded tyres and just mashing down the throttle. I remember someone saying it wheelspins in a straight line in 2nd gear, this is totally false unless you just came out of the grass or sand.
IMO people having problems are taking corners too fast and too eager to get back on throttle, or they haven't aquired the fine throttle skills to keep the car on a slip angle, or they just can't sense the car when you're exceeding the slip angle and because of this are too slow to counter or prevent the oversteer.

 

[Bekimche]

No. It's just not realistic at all. I wish I still had my old car, I would go as far as making a video.

 

[G.T.Ace]

Dont get me wrong Bekimche, but when 5 from 100 people say its not realistic, but the other 95 say it is and 20 of these 100 people have real life track experience, i believe it is.

Maybe you just cant "feel" it the same way...

 

[Bekimche]

I highly doubt that's the figure. I think its evenly mixed. And those with track experience, half of those are mixed too. I really can't understand how anyone can say this is realistic, even with track experience, that just blows my mind.

Do simple tests...connect your G25 take the stock 370z. Now from a stand still hold the handbrake and rev it up in first and full lock it to either side, let go of the handbrake...watch how stupidly unrealistic it reacts. Now do the same thing in lfs and watch both replays. It's not the feel...I have experimented with this game for far too long. The car has even unsettled with the lightest feather of a touch on the throttle sitting under 2,000rpm ! *facepalm* (and yes I caught it, but that shouldn't of happened in the first place!). Watch youtube videos with in car cams...just by watching those you can see everything, you will see how they feed the power and tame it. If the car was like that in real life, could you imagine those best motoring battles....they wouldn't even make it to the finish line, they would all crash, and they push the car to their absolute limits. Could you imagine all those young kids on the roads who try to show off to their mates, yeah there's heaps of crashes and unfortunate tragedies already, but imagine if cars in real life handled like GT. They would all crash within the first 5 minutes.

 

[ItsHim]

Watch youtube videos with in car cams...just by watching those you can see everything, you will see how they feed the power and tame it.

 

[long5056]

the game seems very exciting to play now and will take alot more finnesse. Just think of it , it has got people comparing it to real life! The fact that it is close enough to make arguements either way is a testament to how for VIDEO GAMES have come. I'm glad and excited to be able to take part in the GT experience it is fun and IMO getting funner all the time!

 

[Tapey]

If you're going to post videos of people crashing on the Nurburgring at least post the best one:

 

[darkblu]

It's not the feel...I have experimented with this game for far too long. The car has even unsettled with the lightest feather of a touch on the throttle sitting under 2,000rpm ! *facepalm* (and yes I caught it, but that shouldn't of happened in the first place!).

hope you don't mind my jumping in the middle, but have you considered that it could have been largely a matter of torque? we've had indications in this thread that the torque characteristics of the 370z in the demo may have been been 'enhanced' (see z06fun's original post in this thread).

Watch youtube videos with in car cams...just by watching those you can see everything, you will see how they feed the power and tame it. If the car was like that in real life, could you imagine those best motoring battles....they wouldn't even make it to the finish line, they would all crash, and they push the car to their absolute limits. Could you imagine all those young kids on the roads who try to show off to their mates, yeah there's heaps of crashes and unfortunate tragedies already, but imagine if cars in real life handled like GT. They would all crash within the first 5 minutes.

like this one? (surely you've seen it before)

and since we all like RL analogies:

1. how often do we drive performance cars with all drivings assists off, traction control in particular?
2. how often do we drive with our human bodies' g-force feedback disabled?

now reapply the above two for situations where we're sitting for the first time in an unfamiliar performance car. somehow i doubt it anybody of us would feel comfortable, or in control, under such a scenario in RL. and a realistic simulation (ie. one that does not try to hold your hand) should not feel any better.

allow me to steer off on a tangent here:

performance cars are an interesting concept. in most people's minds they're just 'better versions of their everyday rides', but that s not technically true. performance cars extend the driving limits for their drivers, but only under the condition those drivers know how to take the advantage. take for example the top performers - f1. with all their superior grip, do you believe a first-time f1 driver would have much of a chance surviving the first corner, unless they were extremely cautious with the throttle? what i'm getting at is this:

cars are darn complex (mainly) rotational systems* to evaluate, which we, their users, happen to be able to handle not so much consciously (as in 'knowing exactly what we do') but rather subconsciously (as in 'my gut drives my car'). in essence, our ability to drive comes as a combination of 'fuzzy arithmetic on a subconscious level' our human brain is good at, and personal experience (i.e. refining that same fuzzy logic for the particular scenario). in this regard, the only type of sim-to-RL analogies i'd take with any dose of trust are those coming from people who have comparable experience with a 370z, or something very close to this car. incidentally, so far the very few impressions by RL 370z drivers seem to be favorable. does that mean this is the perfect simulation? - hardly. but i, for one, am subjectively satisfied with it, despite all the disbelief moments i can see in it with my own eyes (eg. the wet grass surfaces, which i absolutely don't care about).


* filled to the brim with stuff like torque, moment of inertial, weight transfer, etc