demo physics discussion

[ItsHim]

That first porsche vid looks extremely fun. The guy's crazy for driving that beast in the wet on a track like the ring. Fantastic video, goes to show just how oversteer is in a real car, don't need to have lightning fast reflexes, the car talks to you,

I'm glad you enjoyed the videos, because it was in fact my intention to bring some light heartiness to the discussion.

However, Röhrl (the driver in the first video) states "A normal person can't do this. You'll have to be extremely fast with the wheel to catch it."

He's not only referring to the track condition, but that he's also on run down tyres.

 

[juniordee]

I am stunned about the bad press of the physics, its a huge leap forward, anyone who thinks you should be able to full throttle out of a tight corner in a powerful RWD car on road tyres, clearly hasn't tried it on a track day.

There is an easy way to control the torque as to get a controllable throttle, shift up a gear to reduce torque, its much easier to balance the throttle then. Exciting the hirpins in 2nd is never going to end well with about 70% and above, exiting 3rd means you can accelerate away full throttle without loosing much time at all.

The low speed physics are massively improved, the understeer is far more progressive and predictable, as for general oversteer i fail to see whats wrong with it. The stock car on N3's feels brilliant, it really does.

I actually agree with everything you said *uploading video*

I'll probably improve today, as this is my first "real" attempt at drifting in this demo, and upload a better video later on.

 

[BHayes_S13Coupe]

I disagree with the red parts and agree with the green one.

Your right, It was to twitchy for ME. I think the turning angle adjustment would be a band aid, we need true button threshold and sensitivity adjustment so everyone could find a happy medium.

 

[juniordee]

Um how do you show a youtube vid here?

EDIT: got it

 

[Zer0]

One more:


*Not mine.

 

[Raitziger]

I think most people here are quite happy how physics look but are not happy about how FFB delivers it to your hands(at least with G27 and fanatec wheels)

Most likey thing is that it takes time for some of us to get familar with new version.

 

[juniordee]

I think most people here are quite happy how physics look but are not happy about how FFB delivers it to your hands(at least with G27 and fanatec wheels)

Most likey thing is that it takes time for some of us to get familar with new version.

Yeah it's more a matter of getting used to it. I'm very happy with the new physics. Sure I'm not as good as I used to be with prologue, but the satisfaction I get is twice as big.

 

[Bekimche]

juniordee that's very impressive, I'm about the same level as you with the drifts although you do some corners better than I do. But if you watch closely, you can tell where the physics are a letdown, and I'm sure you felt it too. Considering the physics, that's a very well done effort.

Cheers for the video, if you could, could you upload the same replay with the 1st person view?

 

[juniordee]

juniordee that's very impressive, I'm about the same level as you with the drifts although you do some corners better than I do. But if you watch closely, you can tell where the physics are a letdown, and I'm sure you felt it too. Considering the physics, that's a very well done effort.

Cheers for the video, if you could, could you upload the same replay with the 1st person view?

How about you leave me more time for a better replay, with better quality and cockpit view?

To be honest the only letdown I can think of is the grass, it's just too slippery.

 

[ANFD]

As I said earlier, I love the new physics. Again, however, I can't help but feel as though there is something just basically wrong somewhere. In my opinion, there is not enough feeling for when the car is getting ready to let go (and that's with a G25). The car seems to be programmed to spin at some point, regardless of what inputs I provide. I don't understand why the car driven at 45mph, touches a single blade of grass and spins so wildly off the track, sliding for 100 yards sideways on the grass as though the grass was wet and I was doing 100mph. I've spun the car going 15mph and the thing just loops and loops like it had been doing 70mph plus. When the back end steps out to the left and I counter steer to full left lock, it just doesn't seem to have any effect at all, even after the car has slowed to 15mph. Something just doesn't feel right to me.

I may not be the best driver out there, but I have logged as many hours and miles as any of you in the GT series, I assure you I have 70 Ferrari F2007's in my Prologue garage as an example.

 

[Bekimche]

That tuned 370z video is with a pad, it's very easy with a pad. notice the wheels? they are suffering from forza 2 syndrome. there is no way, its actually impossible to counter that quick with a wheel, very unrealistic. It even looks unrealistic, looks very dodgy, the stock 370z looked alot more convincing but still not there.

 

[Bekimche]

sure thing juniordee, but please don't upload it with cockpit view, 1st person view would be better and I don't know whether in the replays it shows the inputs? I can't remember...if it does that would be great

 

[Raitziger]

I assure you I have 70 Ferrari F2007's in my Prologue garage as an example.

Holy molly you are crazy I currently agree with you but i can not yet say if it is my or game's, or my fanatec wheel's problem.

 

[juniordee]

sure thing juniordee, but please don't upload it with cockpit view, 1st person view would be better and I don't know whether in the replays it shows the inputs? I can't remember...if it does that would be great

There might be a button that enables the display, don't know. Did you ever try drifting on pavement in real life before? I think it's much more realistic than prologue. When you say it's a letdown, are you saying prologue was better? Or that this demo is better than prologue, just not as realistic as you would like it to be?

 

[juniordee]

<< In my opinion, there is not enough feeling for when the car is getting ready to let go (and that's with a G25). The car seems to be programmed to spin at some point, regardless of what inputs I provide.

When the back end steps out to the left and I counter steer to full left lock, it just doesn't seem to have any effect at all, even after the car has slowed to 15mph. Something just doesn't feel right to me. >>

^^ I personally think the cars in this demo are less spin happy than prologue. In prologue, you would touch the gas pedal and the tires would start spinning (in an unrealistic manner).

I also think that counter steering is more realistic than prologue. You say it doesn't work, yet in my video you can clearly see counter steering is working the way it should. Sure it's harder, but in my opinion it's harder because you can feel the weight of the car more (than prologue), and the tires feel grippier (like they should).

Sorry for the double post.

 

[Bekimche]

It's mixed...some things on prologue are better, yet some things are better on the new demo. They both have there pros and cons. One thing that annoyed me and was very unrealistic in GT5P is when your wheels are spinning, lets say in 1st gear and your on the rev limiter, try turning the wheel, and it will just follow...if you can understand what I'm saying...it's meant to bring the back around violently, and it never did. The low speed physics were horrid. When it comes to drifting, I can only say that LFS is the most true to life in my opinion and that is the only benchmark for me. I was reading through LFS forums and discovered that I am not the only one who has pointed out the exact flaws I was talking about. I do think the demo is better than prologue in many ways, but it's just not realistic yet, all it needs is tire physics similar to LFS and it will be (almost) perfect.

As for the drifting in real life...I shouldn't really discuss that on here if you know what I mean, I haven't drifted on a circuit lets put it that way.

But really the new physics just need a few more tweaks and fine tuning and better communication through FFB. Physics are almost there...I really hope there fixed in the full game.

 

[GMTN]

The physics don't really compute as well as they did in Prologue in my opinion, it took me around 6 laps to correlate the sense of speed, distance and proper handling of this car. I tried playing it like prologue and that didn't work, then i tried driving like i would in real life that didn't work either. So i ended up playing it like it was its own game, and it does somethings well and somethings right, all in all its around the same thing as Spec III when you add all the plus minuses. Also I'd like to add the difference in handling between the stock and tuned 370 is exciting, if this is even an inkling on how much we can improve a cars handling in the real GT5 with proper tuning, then i think we should ALL be way more excited.

BTW you don't need a wheel to get great times, its all about entering and exiting those corners really well. I don't see any other benefit of having a wheel other than manual shifting is more instinctive and responsive.

 

[juniordee]

all it needs is tire physics similar to LFS and it will be (almost) perfect.

As for the drifting in real life...I shouldn't really discuss that on here if you know what I mean, I haven't drifted on a circuit lets put it that way.

But really the new physics just need a few more tweaks and fine tuning and better communication through FFB. Physics are almost there...I really hope there fixed in the full game.

I agree with you on that. Though the tire physics have improved (my opinion), they could better better. And yeah I shouldn't be discussing my drifting experiences either haha.👍

 

[Bekimche]

I don't see any other benefit of having a wheel other than manual shifting is more instinctive and responsive.

It's ALOT more fun and exciting. Plus shifting with a H pattern just feels great too. Counter steering, clutch kicking, there's so many benefits with a wheel. But the main difference is FUN!

 

[ANFD]

I wish PD had some sort of a "dump report" whereby, they could tally the total number of times people hit "Restart" while playing the demo. I'd be willing to bet it would set a record for most activated in any game

 

[mtgear1]

people who use the control pad should not really be talking about the physics, imho, using a wheel you will find it fantastic, challenging, realistic , satisfying, rewarding.... i have run out of words.

and dont post videos using a controller , doesnt look right, car exterior and interior view wheel moves around too jerkily,

use the wheel
👍

 

[GMTN]

It's ALOT more fun and exciting. Plus shifting with a H pattern just feels great too. Counter steering, clutch kicking, there's so many benefits with a wheel. But the main difference is FUN!

I guess that is all true, but it really doesn't benefit your time as much. Some people are better with a controller than wheel. I wish you could break your gearbox in GT5 if you downshift at high speeds/rpm, there was a video on youtube of this guy in a civic going from 4th to 3rd in high revs( he meant to go to fifth), and it was a disaster.

 

[Perkel]

some of my "drifting" i wasn't even good in prologue to begin with


some normal racing


I still think that there is a problem with car and n3 tyres not with physic and FFB (witch is still good).

Also 900 wheel is pain in this car. Tyres are so grippy that the moment you catch grip you bounce like bullet other way.

N3 feel more like S2-3 in prologue.

Maybe they want to change it , N1 in prologue were worse than any rubber in real life so they may actually do sometjing like that :

N1->N2
N2->N3
N3->S1

btw i fck hate grass. it is soooo unrealistic. at 20 kmh/h it feels like snow... or like gt5prologue

 

[Biggles]

There isn't a good sense of speed in GT5D when in cockpit view (completely unlike Shift - & I'm not talking about the camera shake & blurring gimicks, just the visual sense of the scenery moving past). This makes it very easy ( until you get used to it) to underestimate the speed you're travelling relative to the available grip, especially in the untuned 370Z, resulting in understeer & oversteer when you don't expect it.

The thing I am most disappointed with is the continuing lack of feel in the FFB - it's not the physics so much as the feel of the physics through the FFB. Also, I can't help but think that understeer continues to be over-represented. I notice that even when you let off the throttle, the grip of the wheels doesn't kick in again in the way that I would expect.

 

[GMTN]

There isn't a good sense of speed in GT5D when in cockpit view (completely unlike Shift - & I'm not talking about the camera shake & blurring gimicks, just the visual sense of the scenery moving past). This makes it very easy ( until you get used to it) to underestimate the speed you're travelling relative to the available grip, especially in the untuned 370Z, resulting in understeer & oversteer when you don't expect it.

The thing I am most disappointed with is the continuing lack of feel in the FFB - it's not the physics so much as the feel of the physics through the FFB. Also, I can't help but think that understeer continues to be over-represented. I notice that even when you let off the throttle, the grip of the wheels doesn't kick in again in the way that I would expect.

How can it be over represented when that is how the car drives:| The tuned model has noticeably less under steer.

 

[Raitziger]

i would like to hear what insidesimracing thinks about new GT5 demo as they said forza 3 physics best of all These games have quite a big contrast between how they handle.

 

[CodeRedR51]

people who use the control pad should not really be talking about the physics, imho, using a wheel you will find it fantastic, challenging, realistic , satisfying, rewarding.... i have run out of words.

and dont post videos using a controller , doesnt look right, car exterior and interior view wheel moves around too jerkily,

use the wheel
👍

I'm sorry man, but I totally disagree with you. That was the stupidest comment I have read on here the last few days. 👎

 

[Tenacious D]

I hope it is just the 370z but I highly doubt that. They really need to fix the tire physics. LFS should be the benchmark for tire physics. And please I don't want to hear anything like "it's only cause you suck" or "it's not designed for drifting" or anything like that, because even those who think the physics are 100% perfect I bet they know deep inside that they're not and infact they are definitely not. It seems people just want to agree with one another but the physics ARE flawed and if everyone's saying it's perfect it's not going to get fixed which would be a shame.

Having all those 1000 cars, waiting so long for GT5, to only slightly enjoy it compared to how excited I would be if the physics were fixed in the full game, I don't think I'll ever get off it. I hope these aren't the final physics, I would be shattered beyond belief. I'm actually quite nervous about it, I want it to be fixed but I have a feeling it won't and will be stuck with these flawed physics in the full game

As for the drifting in real life...I shouldn't really discuss that on here if you know what I mean, I haven't drifted on a circuit lets put it that way.

ZOMG!

Good grief... you just shot yourself in the foot with both barrels. I really chafe when people complain about Gran Turismo in comparison with another video game. Real life driving, racing, whatever is fine, but not another GAME. Don't do it people, I won't give you any credence whatsoever. If you want the physics of a certain game, you need to play THAT GAME. I do NOT want Gran Turismo to be like another game. I want it to reflect real live physics, and nothing else.

Please, if you're going to complain, don't do it in the context of some other game. I can't stomach that.

As for LFS's tire physics, every time they fix something, they break something else. Maybe with the newest patch, they'll get it mostly right. I will have to say the dynamics are very good, and I know the math of tire grip physics is insanely complicated, and that tiny team has done a great job with it. But at the same time almost none of the game is real, and the graphics are rubbish. Plus, PC sims are just stale even in comparison to GT4.

i would like to hear what insidesimracing thinks about new GT5 demo as they said forza 3 physics best of all These games have quite a big contrast between how they handle.

That would be interesting. The ISR guys were practically touching themselves on camera over Forza 3. And it's a nice game and all, but it's still just Forza 2 tweaked a bit. I don't get the feeling reminiscent of Live For Speed like I do in Prologue.

And I have to say it: I'm not disappointed that drifting is so difficult in the TT demo. I'd much rather drifters gravitate to another game like Forza or NFS. I had joined a Forza 3 online party with Mustang from here, and some ninyhead was drifting while we were racing. It would have been okay if he was last, but I was behind him and trying to get around, and taking a chance for a pass on an upcoming turn, he drifted into me and took us both out. It also looked completely fake. Meh. I don't want to go through this nonsense in GT5. I hope at the very least there are drift only servers they can all flock to.

Besides, I'd have to think that drifting wouldn't be easy anyway without proper clutch implementation. I think everyone in that camp needs to calm down and wait for GT5 to release, or at least a proper demo if we get one, before you give yourselves a wedgie over it.

Oh by the way, I agree with the wheel bigots. It's the only way to... well, fly.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Oh by the way, I agree with the wheel bigots. It's the only way to... well, fly.

While I agree that the wheel is the way to go, and I will eventually get one, but saying that people with controllers cannot have a say about the physics is stupid and unnecessary.

 

[Perkel]

While I agree that the wheel is the way to go, and I will eventually get one, but saying that people with controllers cannot have a say about the physics is stupid and unnecessary.

👍