demo physics discussion

[ppith]

please let us know what you think of the physics for gt5 demo.

havent played it much myself but from what i have i think the physics are more less forgiving than gt5p's

also even tho the tc is set to 7 it doesnt feel like it is, like with gt5p setting the tc to 7 you definitely know about it, but in this demo you can hardly tell, mind you ive only had two laps on it

I have all driving aids turned off and N3 tires driving the stock Nissan 370Z. After driving a lightly modded 350Z for about three years, it is safe to say the physics in this game are very realistic. Especially when the rear end breaks loose and you aren't feathering the throttle. I'm glad they improved how the car turns under trail braking as well. If the physics of all cars are this accurate, we have a lot to look forward to in the future.

With the steering set to professional on my driving force pro, I started getting misty eyed whenever the rear end broke loose. The physics are realistic as long as the car is on the road. When it's on the grass/gravel, it doesn't feel that realistic, especially if you're driving slow. Actually, when driving on grass/gravel, it feels like when I drove my 350Z in the snow on summer tires (NOT recommended).

 

[Bekimche]

But it's not an 370Z, is it?



Well, now there's a thing.

I'm always more than happy to read well voiced criticism like you both did. Because that keeps me from falling for fanboi-ism.

But, I can't really see how you can compare any random car to what is portrayed in the game. Heck, not even all BMWs in RL drive a like, and while you can have much "fun" in an M3, it's a completely different story in an 530 or 116. They are nothing like each other, yet the still share the basic BMW-ness.

And I really don't understand the "Game A does it that way, so Game B should do it the same".

No. Each and every developer have their own approach and each game feels differently. Which is a good thing, because it gives us choice. Even the choice to say: "I don't like it because it doesn't feel right to me."

That's a very fair point yes every car is different and will handle differently and different developers will have very different physics engines. I understand that. But the fact of the matter is, any rear wheel drive car in real life with decent enough power/torque can go sideways very easily and be controllable very easily. This is true no matter what, I have driven many cars and yes they handle differently even when throwing them about, some are easier, some are more a handful but generally they hold the same characteristics? I don't know the word for it but I hope you understand what I mean. Some games simulate this very well and some don't.

All I am saying is that the new physics don't really simulate this very well, while they do simulate other things like understeer etc very well, oversteer is not it's strong point. I am not saying I want GT5 to have the same physics as LFS, but for it to be realistic, it should simulate oversteer well and at the moment it does not.

Many may be happy with this and that's fine, each to their own but one thing I loved about playing GT is that I can take any car and muck about with it and have an extremely fun time doing it. Obviously I don't do stupid things like that on the road anymore cause it's dangerous and not worth it which is why I love doing it on GT/LFS cause it's the next best thing. I'd love to go to tracks, but the costs are way too high for a hobby like that.

Have you ever driven a Japanese spec Nissan 370Z in real life?
And also, i find drifting in LFS (also with a controller, a DS2 to be precise) a lot harder than in the GT5 demo, so....

I haven't driven the 370z but I have driven the 350. But that doesn't matter, a sports car like that will flow into a nice oversteer quite naturally and beautifully compared to say...a Caterham. LFS is actually quite easy to drift with a wheel, I haven't tried with a controller though. I find it very hard to catch a LX6 in a slide but that's normal, I would never attempt that in a car similar to the LX6 in real life. A sports car like the XRG, XRT or the FZ50 in the game on the other hand handle very well and realistically. It's definitely easier in LFS.

If you have managed some drifts in the GT5 demo, could you please share it? record a replay or something if you don't mind?

Cheers

 

[paskowitz]

Bekimche, I completely agree. When I drive the tuned Z I feel like I am driving on the razors edge (almost what I would expect a Lotus Elise to drive like). Its not so much how the car is sliding but the reaction and input it takes to correct the slide, that I feel is whats wrong. I noticed that feedback of oversteer through the wheel (ie when the wheel gets light/firm) is slightly off, further contributing to the difficulty. I am also noticing that since the tire squeal is almost constant I am having a very hard time noticing when/if my car is understeering and then its too late. It seems like the sound reaches a certain volume and then if the tires are breaking even more it does not increase. This is not so much physics but the communication of physics.

 

[JB-BMW1989]

I guess it's safe to say it is hard to master Gran Turismo. First of all, I turned off the assists while setting the transmission to manual and second, what I am frustrated with the demo's physics is when I floor the gas, the tuned Z34 oversteers. Now the demo tells me to not floor the gas pedal. Something tells me that the Z34 in the demo feels like a real car...

I don't know, I kept playing Forza Motorsport 3, and compared to the demo, the cars in FM3 are too easy to handle. It's not like a real car, it feels like a go-kart. Kill me if you say so, I have to be aware between the two games, one game has a go-kart feel, the other has a extreme feel. I have to say, Gran Turismo 5 demo version is real as it gets. I'll see if I can play it again tomorrow and learn more about the two cars.

 

[RedBaron]

I can drift easily with the tuned 370...

...which is another nonsence. In reality, tuned and racing cars with racing slicks are much more prone to loose the rear end once slide begins. Much more than stock car with progressive road tyres, which should be controllable like a toy, especially in case of nimble and handy car like 370Z.

More to that, there is very low feedback on my G25. Even feedback present in GT4 was talking to me and I exactly knew when to start with countersteer. There is no such thing in this nondemo. I can see many bumps shaking whole cockpit view but almost nothing from it in the steering wheel, just curbs.

 

[thenextsketch]

I agree that this GT5 Academy Demo feels much more of a challenge than FM3. Of course the G25 highlights the feel and is a far better product than the MS wireless wheel which mutes the physics in FM3 in my opinion. I really had to take a couple of hours to adapt to much more sensitive steering and throttle inputs but got down to 1'39.904. But I like the burst of energy around this challenge and pushing to move up the boards. Much more interesting than a faux 'career mode' even in spite of NA being excluded from the official academy comp.

 

[Ludus]

Hey guys, I'm new to this forum but not to GT at all, I have been playing since the release day of GT1, however, never owned GT3 or GT5P and only played GT4 for about 3 months before selling my PS2 for monetary reasons.

Aaaaaanyway, just wanted to comment on the physics, since I have never played GT5P I don't know how it differs, but I just spent 3 hours playing the demo and it's pretty much spot on.

When going around the track I can "feel" the weight and softness of the suspension(stock car), for example how it loads the front under heavy breaking and makes me understeer, but as soon as I release the brake and floor it, it tries to oversteer; also how the race prepped car feels so much stiffer and more responsive since the nasty body roll is almost non-existent.

Also how when going 130 and taking a turn in the stock 370, the tires loose grip and the rear end starts to go, but if you release the gas pedal just a tad it will snap back into place.

I guess it's the little things that go overlooked that I find amazing.

My friend owns a 370Z and I've driven it on the track, let me just say, the feel of the game comes really close, minus the g-forces and the "oh ****" feeling of impending death of the real deal.

 

[lucag120]

Physics are great, better than prologue for sure, the car's weight; leaning on its tyres, you can feel it as you drive for sure.

the tuned car is a beast with a lot of grip. hard to know how hard to push it......

 

[nobuffalo]

Although i've never driven a tuned 370z, when cornering at the limit if I go over the limit, i'm gonna expect that rear end to snap around, fast! I'm gonna expect that in order to catch control of the car i'm gonna have to counter steer, fast! And this is exactly what it's doing in the demo. Not only do you have to counter steer fast, but you have to counter that counter very quickly or you're gonna go straight were those wheels where pointed, straight into the grass, wall or whatever it may be. I'm not very good at explaining what i'm thinking but if you get what i'm saying, cool.

I hated spinning out in GT5P, but something about this demo is making me love it, it's more challenging, and when I do spin out I chuckle every time with a big grin on my face. It's exciting.

 

[scottjua]

After whole afternoon with both cars without be able to do even one single piece of drift with my G25, I just came to conclusion that they gone mad with physics. It's like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Calm driving physics has now good feel and even that low speed switch to "sled" physics is gone. But this completely ends with the moment you go over limit, namely into first oversteer. There is no thing you can do which can hold the drift or return it to normal state. It's just over then. Even if you completely release the gas pedal or fully countersteer, rear wheels are on ice now and you can just make bye to your rear end.

They already made step into right direction with GT5P Spec III Professional physics and if they solved that low speed "sled" problem which perceived from GT4, that physics would be perfect for me. It had its inertia feel, understeer and oversteer exactly in situations according to real life driving and car were perfectly controllable, yet you could do whatever you could do with real car, really.

And now this? OMG, If the full game is anything like this, then NO, THANKS.

There are things that are better, but this little progress is dear-bought for many really bad things.

Even graphics are worse. The actual HDR lightning showed its weakness and looks especially horrible with this Indianopolis track. There are almost no 3D objects on this track, tribunes are from 2D constructions, there are maybe seven trees on the track and all of them are crossed cardboards with pixels instead of leaves, OMG! Nothing, really nothing looks real except two Nissans, that glass building next to start and the numbered tower with rusty sediments underneath. Everything else looks like aged hardcore PC sim from 90's.

PD lost themselves somewhere between their own uncertainty and lack of solid goals, content megalomania, forum fan cryings and unability to set the team from real specialists and get rid of those old friends with mind frozen in times of GT1. They try to do everything and nothing well. They fail in one department after another. It was obvious with car sounds and AI, now they are in the end even with physics and graphics. One and only thing better than competition now are car models. And that's really sad.

I feel in my bones that without any new blood and thinking, that whole big GT5 game will turn into universal fiasco. I have really fear of it now, guys. My poor GT...

I with you. Although I care less about drifting and the graphics.

I get to the real track often, and have driven many student cars out there and had my fair share of offs. That said, I've never experienced any real car or grass, or track in the dry that reacted anywhere close to as absurdly as the "physics" in the new demo does.

The snap oversteer and grass are beyond unrealistic to me.

I understand that the physics are simulating the finesse required to drive smoothly, but being a video game approximation, I feel it's missing the mark.

Maybe the full game and standard physics will alleviate this.

I won't buy it until I try it I guess...

 

[DRambo]

I agree with RedBaron. The communication in Prologue with a G25 is much better, however, there are great improvements in the physics in the demo, particularly as regards understeer at speed. The tuned car turns fast corners better and has a more natural balance into and through the corner. I do feel that on N3 tyres the oversteer is exaggerated. If you apply the throttle a little too much even when almost going in a straight line, you can spin without the G25 really telling you too much about what's going on. I also think the wheel reacts to abruptly and can be too jerky.

 

[TrievelA7X]

I with you. Although I care less about drifting and the graphics.

I get to the real track often, and have driven many student cars out there and had my fair share of offs. That said, I've never experienced any real car or grass, or track in the dry that reacted anywhere close to as absurdly as the "physics" in the new demo does.

The snap oversteer and grass are beyond unrealistic to me.

I understand that the physics are simulating the finesse required to drive smoothly, but being a video game approximation, I feel it's missing the mark.

Maybe the full game and standard physics will alleviate this.

I won't buy it until I try it I guess...

Having had some similar experiences, I have to disbelieve you. I feel the exact opposite way.
The one thing I will say, other than a bit to much wheelspin, is road tires SHOULD have MORE grip in sand and grass, by a noticable margin, and it seems they do not.
tread = grip on anything not roadway, whether it's standing water, grass, sand, dirt, snow, ice, anything, road tires should work better on, but the slicks keep their extra grip, so I'd say they took a shortcut and cut a % of grip out for all tires when driving off the roadway.

 

[nobuffalo]

After whole afternoon with both cars without be able to do even one single piece of drift with my G25, I just came to conclusion that they gone mad with physics. It's like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Calm driving physics has now good feel and even that low speed switch to "sled" physics is gone. But this completely ends with the moment you go over limit, namely into first oversteer. There is no thing you can do which can hold the drift or return it to normal state. It's just over then. Even if you completely release the gas pedal or fully countersteer, rear wheels are on ice now and you can just make bye to your rear end.

C'mon now, I just spent no more than 10 minutes practicing drifting and I can say with 100 percent confidence you are wrong. I think the main issue people are having with this whole not being able to drift thing or going over the limit and not being able to get the car under control is you're not counter steering fast enough. Yes I spin out alot but I know it's me and not the game. So to say drifting is impossible is a lie, you just gotta counter steer before you think you do, counter steer!!! I'm not saying the physics are correct or wrong, i'm just saying it's possible with a little practice. After all I don't think I could drift a 370z with out any practice.

 

[Stotty]

There's an easy solution to the 0 grip grass problem... keep it on the track

 

[RedBaron]

C'mon now, I just spent no more than 10 minutes practicing drifting and I can say with 100 percent confidence you are wrong. I think the main issue people are having with this whole not being able to drift thing or going over the limit and not being able to get the car under control is you're not counter steering fast enough. Yes I spin out alot but I know it's me and not the game. So to say drifting is impossible is a lie, you just gotta counter steer before you think you do, counter steer!!! I'm not saying the physics are correct or wrong, i'm just saying it's possible with a little practice. After all I don't think I could drift a 370z with out any practice.

I spent many years at the steering wheel of my own BMW's and at least two years of my life drifting RUF CTR Yellowbird with N2 tyres on Nordschleife in GT4 with DFP, so this isn't anything new for me. In fact, when you get used to technique, you can enjoy drift in very pleasant manner and use it on ever second corner just for fun.

But the new physics have it INSANE, several times harder than it really is. And that is my problem with it, no matter how many people will rave about this weird difficultness and think it's the real thing, wow, wow, wow! It just isn't and nimble 370Z isn't acting on the dry pavement like 1980's Porsche Turbo on wet road.

 

[Keitaro333]

Im wondering if it really isnt that the car is set up for more difficult drifting on purpose to discourage it since theyre looking for a racing driver, not a drifter. I dont mean they'd have "broken" the drifting capabilities on purpose but they'd set the car to perform better in racing kind of driving which would make the car harder to manage when it loses grip, to make sure the winner could handle steady grip and be a 'safe' pilot.

 

[nobuffalo]

Im wondering if it really isnt that the car is set up for more difficult drifting on purpose to discourage it since theyre looking for a racing driver, not a drifter. I dont mean they'd have "broken" the drifting capabilities on purpose but they'd set the car to perform better in racing kind of driving which would make the car harder to manage when it loses grip, to make sure the winner could handle steady grip and be a 'safe' pilot.

I'd assume PD have set up the car to handle as much like the real car handles to the best of their abilitlies. So neither racing nor drifting, just the way the car really is. If they wanted to set up a car for track purposes they would have, oh wait, they did.

I can't wait till people start coming out with some drift videos of the new demo though, to me the car just looks much more realistic in the way weight is transfered compared to prologue and I feel this will greatly improve replays.

 

[shawtyoner]

I haven't driven the 370z but I have driven the 350. But that doesn't matter, a sports car like that will flow into a nice oversteer quite naturally and beautifully compared to say...a Caterham.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you there. You are basing this on speculation. A 350Z is not the same as a 370Z. As I have posted earlier, this quote comes directly from a professional journalist from evo magazine:

"The trouble is that in the dry it’s not a terribly playful companion. When the roads are warm and tacky the 370 feels just a bit uptight and uneasy with itself, not helped by suspension that has slightly too much rebound in the damping. Grip at the rear is tenacious and, unlike the old 350, which used to almost lugubriously roll into oversteer, the new car needs a brutal stab of the throttle at high revs to get the tail to unstick. When it does break free from the Bridgestones’ hold it’s a bit of a scratch card as to what will happen. Sometimes the limited-slip diff stays locked for long enough to get the tail to a decent angle and hold it, other times it locks then starts slipping almost immediately, meaning a spinning inside rear wheel, a noisily revving V6 and no oversteer, which isn’t very satisfying."

 

[Sm0k3:D]

I like new physics.... But I don't like the colors: I don't know why they painted the ice green...

On road physics works great. But on grass i feel a strange ice sensation... And strange movements when you go from grass to road, even at very low speed, or when only one wheel or two are on grass while the others are on road...

 

[nobuffalo]

"The trouble is that in the dry it’s not a terribly playful companion. When the roads are warm and tacky the 370 feels just a bit uptight and uneasy with itself, not helped by suspension that has slightly too much rebound in the damping. Grip at the rear is tenacious and, unlike the old 350, which used to almost lugubriously roll into oversteer, the new car needs a brutal stab of the throttle at high revs to get the tail to unstick. When it does break free from the Bridgestones’ hold it’s a bit of a scratch card as to what will happen. Sometimes the limited-slip diff stays locked for long enough to get the tail to a decent angle and hold it, other times it locks then starts slipping almost immediately, meaning a spinning inside rear wheel, a noisily revving V6 and no oversteer, which isn’t very satisfying."

I think they accurately describe how the car handles in the game...and real life.

 

[vr6wantsr20det]

i couldn't drift for the life of me, although i only tried to get tail happy around 3 to 4 turns, will have more go at it tonight. But so far my MAIN complaint is NO CLUTCH!!!! Did i miss something or is it to make the time trial fair for all competitors that they don't allow the use of the G25 Clutch? Very disappointed about that as i was hoping they removed that ridiculous and annoyingly unrealistic shift lock (i'm a big drifter). The stock 370z was a handfull to get around the track smoothly but the Tunned version was a lot of fun. I enjoyed it and as of a few laps last night i was ranked 68 on the Tunned version. I have LOTS of room for improvement and hope to put in some more time this weekend. The stock 370z as other said is VERY twitchy, if you are not approaching turns at the proper speeds you are in for a hairy time to keep the car on track. I still find myself hitting the clutch and heel-toeing anyways even though the clutch is not functional.....👎

 

[cjmodiano]

I love how everybody needs to find all kinds if excuses to justify the handling. Well if you all just accept the handling with certain physics flaws, nobody is ever going to fix it. Fact is the car handling at high degrees of slip is NOT realistic, and road cars just don't handle this way. Stop trying to say you need to feather the throttle and the 370Z is apparently more of a miserable handling car than the 350. That's silly. GT5 handles way better than I was expecting, but that tire issue almost destroys the drivability of the game. I hope it's better in the final release.

 

[KayEnnOhBee]

I like the physics a lot more. IMO it is remarkably close to live for speed (not realism, just how it feels). i.e. when braking and turning too fast the back will kick out a bit. This never happened in prologue, as you just understeered off or something.

Its great.

EDIT: this is for the tuned car. The normal 370z feels like im driving on watermelon thats been in a blender

 

[Perkel]

"The trouble is that in the dry it’s not a terribly playful companion. When the roads are warm and tacky the 370 feels just a bit uptight and uneasy with itself, not helped by suspension that has slightly too much rebound in the damping. Grip at the rear is tenacious and, unlike the old 350, which used to almost lugubriously roll into oversteer, the new car needs a brutal stab of the throttle at high revs to get the tail to unstick. When it does break free from the Bridgestones’ hold it’s a bit of a scratch card as to what will happen. Sometimes the limited-slip diff stays locked for long enough to get the tail to a decent angle and hold it, other times it locks then starts slipping almost immediately, meaning a spinning inside rear wheel, a noisily revving V6 and no oversteer, which isn’t very satisfying."

This is exacly what i feel about 370z in demo.

Just tires in stock are grippy and the edge is closer than you think.

After playin few more hours i am convinced that we have here the most realistic physic engine on consoles ever. Ofc. i can only say by one car so my point can be flawed a little.

BUT. After playin few hours rFator and then playin gttt it feels realy great.

 

[newbielives]

I'm really curious to what Christhedude thinks about the new GT5 physics

 

[ANFD]

IMO .... the physics do an excellent job of mimicing a real car driving experience. However, when I drive a real car, I have G-forces and seat of the pants sensation to judge the car's movements and allow me to provide corrective inputs based on that "feeling".

In the virtual world, all we have is vision and sound. I can't tell the rear is getting ready to break loose until I hear it or see it. Once the car has passed that point, it reacts like it has a mind of it's own and nothing I do (corrective inputs) has any effect whatsoever. Counter steering does nothing to change the attitude or direction of the car .... it's already passed the point of no return.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the new physics engine. I just wish it was ever so slightly a bit more gentle on breaking loose so that I could sense it sooner and react accordingly. I realize that quick reactions are necessary in the real world as well, but our brains have more to go on in making those adjustments. I know many here disagree.

It does make me excited about the prospect of driving real racing cars with aero downforce and R3's when the full version releases. In any case. it's a big improvement over Prologue physics.

 

[guitar421]

IMO .... the physics do an excellent job of mimicing a real car driving experience. However, when I drive a real car, I have G-forces and seat of the pants sensation to judge the car's movements and allow me to provide corrective inputs based on that "feeling".

In the virtual world, all we have is vision and sound. I can't tell the rear is getting ready to break loose until I hear it or see it. Once the car has passed that point, it reacts like it has a mind of it's own and nothing I do (corrective inputs) has any effect whatsoever. Counter steering does nothing to change the attitude or direction of the car .... it's already passed the point of no return.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the new physics engine. I just wish it was ever so slightly a bit more gentle on breaking loose so that I could sense it sooner and react accordingly. I realize that quick reactions are necessary in the real world as well, but our brains have more to go on in making those adjustments. I know many here disagree.

It does make me excited about the prospect of driving real racing cars with aero downforce and R3's when the full version releases. In any case. it's a big improvement over Prologue physics.

I feel the same way. While the physics have improved there isn't a corresponding improvement in driver feedback. I am using the G25 and there isn't much in physical feedback to give me an indication that I am about to lose grip and that I need to back off. Without this I am forced to constantly think about my actions (above what you would normally have to do) in the absence of other feedback because if I can see any slight movements it's often too late.

I hope in the final game PD gives us a lot of tuning options for our steering wheels other than button assignments and force feedback levels. I would like adjustment curves for the pedals and the wheel play and to the extent possible individual adjustments on the force feedback for separate incidents such as loss of grip, rumble strips, bumps, etc. Each different type of wheel implements force feedback in a different manner and it would be great if we could tune this to the finest degree possible.

The ability to have non-visual feedback while sitting in an idle chair without movement is obviously limited and we don't have many other options than the feedback on the wheel. Is anyone out there using a buttkicker or similar feedback device with this demo? If so does that help?

 

[myke6699]

I love how everybody needs to find all kinds if excuses to justify the handling. Well if you all just accept the handling with certain physics flaws, nobody is ever going to fix it. Fact is the car handling at high degrees of slip is NOT realistic, and road cars just don't handle this way. Stop trying to say you need to feather the throttle and the 370Z is apparently more of a miserable handling car than the 350. That's silly. GT5 handles way better than I was expecting, but that tire issue almost destroys the drivability of the game. I hope it's better in the final release.

Here's the the description (by PD) of the Normal car in the TT (demo):

This is time trial in a stock 370Z. Because it is equipped with lower gripping normal class tires, you will need to drive very carefully at all times. It will especially be important to avoid unnecessary slippage of the tires by exercising precise throttle control.

It appears intentional.

Add to the fact that the tire modeling isn't complete- both tire temperature and wear isn't implemented in the demo (as it was in Prologue). If the demo follows the same modeling as Prologue, the N3 represents a normal wear tires (while S1 would be a freshly fitted tires).

 

[JB-BMW1989]

I did test both variations of the Z34 and the tuned version is better to drive than the stock version. The N3 tires on the stock Z34 has the worst tires I can drive on. It is like one of those Bridgestone tires based on the real Z34 which is actually is. I love the demo, this is like the real thing.

 

[Exorcet]

If the demo follows the same modeling as Prologue, the N3 represents a normal wear tires (while S1 would be a freshly fitted tires).

That sounds like a load of garbage again. A quick skidpad puts the GT5 N3's at ~ 1g. That's about as good as any 370Z will get. Maybe the S1 give a more accurate feel, but I don't know why they have to have race car like grip to give you street car fee.

The N3's in the demo feel fine, though TC makes it hard to explore the limits of the car. It doesn't let you forget that it is on. They really should have made it defeatable, or at least left it at a reasonable level, like 1.