demo physics discussion

  • Thread starter BLACK86
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That's fair enough, great post. More power to you. I guess we will have to see the differences when the full game is released or hopefully another demo.

By the way I'm not a testosterone driven Über-male who has to show-off (LOL!) either and I hope I don't come across as one. My days of doing stupid things on the roads are over (okay I might punch it here and there on a straight road with no cars around but that's just normal temptations) but when I did do it, I never did it to show off, I was usually with my mates and was all done for pure fun and adrenaline. Funny thing is, my mate and I both crashed our cars when we weren't doing anything stupid, rather somebody else's fault and it bloody woke us up. It's not worth it to risk your life or anybody else's. Right so I just wanted to get that out of the way.
 
Utter rubbish I'm afraid. Perhaps it's because I'm using a wheel.

The 'oversteer model' is complete drivel.

However I think there's method in their madness. I reckon they've set this demo up to reward a driving style that you would be expected to adopt on an 'instruction' or 'experience' day at a race track when you were a beginner... which would make sense when you think about it.

Examples:

On your first track days you'll be taught to be completely off the brakes before you turn in. Anyone who races will know that this is not the way to be fast, but it appears to get the best times on the GT5 leader board.

You can't balance the car just over the limit, it just spins or fishtails out of control. Again, if you tried this on an instruction day you'd get a serious bollocking.

I just hope the game isn't like this - it will be an epic disappointment.
 
I might be wrong in thinking this, but I reckon many here are confusing "the back sliding out" with "oversteer." Oversteer is when the front end cuts in on a turn, whereas what people here seem to be talking most about is the rear end sliding our when accelerating on curves.

I too noticed this happening a lot when I started playing the demo, and thought it a bit strange at the time, but when driving back slowly to the spots that I spun out all the time, and looking closely, I see that these places have a very slight rise in the track, which will naturally cause the car to decrease traction. This is even true of the VIR youtube video crash.

I find the physics of the tuned 370z in game to be quite similar to a BMW M3, which I have driven in real life. The M3 also tends to swing out on curves under acceleration, and I think it is a mixture of high torque, low weight on the back, and rear tyres being too narrow.

The tuned 370 is also high torque, and although I haven't driven one IRL, appears to also not carry a lot of weight on the back, being a shorter wheelbase 2 door...so I think the ingredients are there for easy spin out.

When I started playing the demo, I went to the tuned car first, and could not stay on track for a complete lap, which caused me to get very frustrated. I then tried the stock version, and after putting in some decent laps in that, to learn the car, the corners, the physics etc., went back to the tuned, and straightaway put in a low 1.40's clean lap.

So tl:dr...I am saying the physics seem fine, its just a matter of adjusting to them. We have to unlearn the bad habit we've picked up with the earlier GT series, and get used to the way it should be.


z06fun
Very unrealistic for a car of this power level -unless you were in the rain or something.
Click to expand...

I have to disagree with this. Switch off the launch control in the M3 and floor it...you will be squealing tyres in a straight line forward in 1st, 2nd, and maybe 3rd, on a dry tarmac.
 
Explored the physics for a couple of hours yesterday and found some; I wouldn't say unrealistic behaviour since that would be offending the community; so let's call it super-realistic - like in super-natural.

Since you're not allowed to comment on how real the physics is unless you have driven the exact car on the exact track; or compare the physics with other simulations or God forbid have a theoretical discussion about it I would like to suggest the following reality check experiments:

Could someone take a race tuned 370Z to the track in question and do the following: Down the start-finishing straight take her up to about 240km/h then slam the brakes; don't be gentle just slam it. I would suspect that you would lock up and have your posterior handed to you on a plate. But according to PD you would be perfectly safe. It might be that the race tuned NISSAN has some front heavy brake bias or some excessive toe-in settings to keep it stable or perhaps some magic ABS, TC that you can't remove. But it has what I would call a super-realistic stable behaviour.

Next time repeat the run down the straight, but instead of braking just put her into first gear. I wouldn't recommend it since I am afraid that you would blow your engine or at least lock up your rear wheels. I know that 6-speed manual transmission features the world's first synchronized downshift rev-matching system, but the super realistic behaviour in GT5:TT is just amazing. It results in a very pleasant ride apart from the buzzing sound of the rev limiter.

The next experiment is a subtler version of the previous one. Could some one please try the effect of engine braking. Just run down the straight at high rev and lift the throttle abruptly. I would imagine that a +300bhp, +300Nm V6 engine would put up some resistance, but according to PD it is like using the clutch.

The next thing would be to repeat the exercise in a corner and see if you can produce some throttle off oversteer. I am still trying...
 
Vuduegg
I might be wrong in thinking this, but I reckon many here are confusing "the back sliding out" with "oversteer." Oversteer is when the front end cuts in on a turn, whereas what people here seem to be talking most about is the rear end sliding our when accelerating on curves.
Click to expand...

"the back sliding out" and "oversteer" are the same thing
 
"The car is said to oversteer when the rear wheels do not track behind the front wheels but instead slide out toward the outside of the turn"

wikipedia
 
Vuduegg
I have to disagree with this. Switch off the launch control in the M3 and floor it...you will be squealing tyres in a straight line forward in 1st, 2nd, and maybe 3rd, on a dry tarmac.
Click to expand...


That's true, when shifting and letting the clutch out fast with lots of throttle. It won't tend to happen if you are already moving in a gear (clutch engaged) and you just hit the throttle going straight on clean, dry, smooth pavement.
 
MartyParty
Explored the physics for a couple of hours yesterday and found some; I wouldn't say unrealistic behaviour since that would be offending the community; so let's call it super-realistic - like in super-natural.

Since you're not allowed to comment on how real the physics is unless you have driven the exact car on the exact track; or compare the physics with other simulations or God forbid have a theoretical discussion about it I would like to suggest the following reality check experiments:

Could someone take a race tuned 370Z to the track in question and do the following: Down the start-finishing straight take her up to about 240km/h then slam the brakes; don't be gentle just slam it. I would suspect that you would lock up and have your posterior handed to you on a plate. But according to PD you would be perfectly safe. It might be that the race tuned NISSAN has some front heavy brake bias or some excessive toe-in settings to keep it stable or perhaps some magic ABS, TC that you can't remove. But it has what I would call a super-realistic stable behaviour.

Next time repeat the run down the straight, but instead of braking just put her into first gear. I wouldn't recommend it since I am afraid that you would blow your engine or at least lock up your rear wheels. I know that 6-speed manual transmission features the world's first synchronized downshift rev-matching system, but the super realistic behaviour in GT5:TT is just amazing. It results in a very pleasant ride apart from the buzzing sound of the rev limiter.

The next experiment is a subtler version of the previous one. Could some one please try the effect of engine braking. Just run down the straight at high rev and lift the throttle abruptly. I would imagine that a +300bhp, +300Nm V6 engine would put up some resistance, but according to PD it is like using the clutch.

The next thing would be to repeat the exercise in a corner and see if you can produce some throttle off oversteer. I am still trying...
Click to expand...

👍
 
A lot of people are complaining about the squirrely nature of the untuned 370Z. I'm of the opinion that a significant part of the problem is due to two things:

1) GT5D has a very understated sense of speed (particularly in cockpit view), which means people are actually driving a street car on a track much faster than they think they are (looking at the replays makes this clear).

2) GT5D has an understated FFB (for those using a wheel obviously). This means it's hard to feel when you're close to the limits of grip.

Of course, it is possible to drive fast & in control in the untuned 370Z, but it takes lots of practice (& skill) to achieve this. How realistic are the physics? Pretty good, but still it feels nothing like racing a 370Z would feel IRL. Take an experienced 370Z driver & put him in the demo - I guarantee he's not going to feel at home "intuitively" with the in-game 370Z.

On the other hand, this would be true of any other game. FC/SCC has much stronger & more descriptive FFB, which I think makes the driving more "visceral" & intuitive. But I think this is achieved by emphasizing certain FFB effects which create a closer to a generic RL driving feel, possibly at the expense of more car-specific "realism". And in any case, SCC isn't going to feel any more "natural" to a new player than any other game.

Could someone take a race tuned 370Z to the track in question and do the following: Down the start-finishing straight take her up to about 240km/h then slam the brakes; don't be gentle just slam it. I would suspect that you would lock up and have your posterior handed to you on a plate. But according to PD you would be perfectly safe. It might be that the race tuned NISSAN has some front heavy brake bias or some excessive toe-in settings to keep it stable or perhaps some magic ABS, TC that you can't remove. But it has what I would call a super-realistic stable behaviour.

Next time repeat the run down the straight, but instead of braking just put her into first gear. I wouldn't recommend it since I am afraid that you would blow your engine or at least lock up your rear wheels. I know that 6-speed manual transmission features the world's first synchronized downshift rev-matching system, but the super realistic behaviour in GT5:TT is just amazing. It results in a very pleasant ride apart from the buzzing sound of the rev limiter.

The next experiment is a subtler version of the previous one. Could some one please try the effect of engine braking. Just run down the straight at high rev and lift the throttle abruptly. I would imagine that a +300bhp, +300Nm V6 engine would put up some resistance, but according to PD it is like using the clutch.

The next thing would be to repeat the exercise in a corner and see if you can produce some throttle off oversteer. I am still trying...
Click to expand...

Exactly right! 👍

I feel these are the areas in which the physics of GT5D still fall very short. Slamming on the brakes is not only easy to do, it's what you have to do to be competitive. There are almost no consequences in terms of weight-transfer or instability when you do this. Enthusia on the PS2 modelled this aggressively - anyone complaining about the 370Z in GT5D should try taking the AC Cobra 427 for a spin in Enthusia & let us know how difficult the 370Z seems in comparison! The problem is it's even harder to model the effects of heavy braking in a game, than it is to model the effects of steering & throttle. Enthusia attempted to do this, but without the ability to communicate the effects physically, it made some of the cars maddeningly hard to drive.

And yes, there's still no serious attempt to model the effects of gear-shifting & engine braking in GT5D - something that is a major part of driving in SCC, although, again, I wouldn't claim that it is necessarily done accurately to the specific cars.
 
Biggles
Slamming on the brakes is not only easy to do, it's what you have to do to be competitive. There are almost no consequences in terms of weight-transfer or instability when you do this.
Click to expand...

Exactly! I watched my replays in GT5D yesterday and were surprised that there is no front diving while braking in this new physics! In fact, I can't even see any effect it in cockpit when mashing and releasing the gas pedal repeatedly or so little that it was lost inbetween surface shakings!
 
MartyParty
Could someone take a race tuned 370Z to the track in question and do the following: Down the start-finishing straight take her up to about 240km/h then slam the brakes; don't be gentle just slam it. I would suspect that you would lock up and have your posterior handed to you on a plate. But according to PD you would be perfectly safe. It might be that the race tuned NISSAN has some front heavy brake bias
Click to expand...

Every standard car has brake biased on front wheels. I that was not the case, grannies would be spinnig the cars constantly in winter :) So race cars are also somewhat biased to front as there is not real advantage of locking rear wheels and front wheels have more traction under braking.
 
RedBaron
I watched my replays in GT5D yesterday and were surprised that there is no front diving while braking in this new physics!
Click to expand...
Well, there is in mine. With the stock car it's more pronounced, but it's definitely there. If you alternate throttle and brake you can see the stock car rocking like a boat. ;) Quite obvious in chase cam and bumper cam too. I don't use cockpit that much as it obscures too much of the screen IMO (looks like you're looking through a tank slit :P)

Still, braking physiscs are not GT5D (or GT5P for that matter) strong points. As a matter of fact, even Shift (the game people all hate :P)) does this better (of course Shift does other things wrong ;)) Try slamming the brakes in Shift (especially while not going straight) and you're dead.
 
RedBaron
Exactly! I watched my replays in GT5D yesterday and were surprised that there is no front diving while braking in this new physics! In fact, I can't even see any effect it in cockpit when mashing and releasing the gas pedal repeatedly or so little that it was lost inbetween surface shakings!
Click to expand...

There is very little dive with the road version- apparently that's how it is IRL

[YOUTUBEHD]VPehxCgXiQw[/YOUTUBEHD]

The 370Z braking test starts at around 1:20.

[YOUTUBEHD]gL__w3CynWY[/YOUTUBEHD]

You shouldn't expect brake dive with the tuned version because of how a race car should be setup (stiff and damped). And as to the why there is no instability- ABS is ON.

I love Youtube! Nissan 370Z at GT Academy at Silverstone (the real one):

[YOUTUBEHD]il19eCWpKnI[/YOUTUBEHD]
 
Last edited:
after playing fm3 for a few hours now here is a physics comparison

GT5d physics model > FM3 physics model > GT5P physics model

GT5d is as real as it gets on consoles, not perfect but , it closer than any to the real thing
 
mtgear1
after playing fm3 for a few hours now here is a physics comparison

GT5d physics model > FM3 physics model > GT5P physics model

GT5d is as real as it gets on consoles, not perfect but , it closer than any to the real thing
Click to expand...

That's a big call based on two cars.
 
It seems like people playing with a controller are liking the demo better than those playing with a wheel. I am playing with a G25, and I really don't like the feel of the car and how it spins (and I hate that there is no clutch support), but alot of people playing with a controller are saying that it is too easy to correct oversteer. I was very good at drifting and car control in prologue, but in this, I can barely get around a corner without spinning.
 
djanikowski
"the back sliding out" and "oversteer" are the same thing
Click to expand...

xpfloyd
"The car is said to oversteer when the rear wheels do not track behind the front wheels but instead slide out toward the outside of the turn"

wikipedia
Click to expand...

For me they are not the same thing. Sure the end result is the same...the rear end swinging out, but if that can be caused by 2 different actions, that is, 1) by turning the steering in too much, or 2) by over accelerating on a turn...then surely the method that one uses to prevent or correct them would have to relate to the action that causes the problem.
 
bubbajan21
It seems like people playing with a controller are liking the demo better than those playing with a wheel. I am playing with a G25, and I really don't like the feel of the car and how it spins (and I hate that there is no clutch support), but alot of people playing with a controller are saying that it is too easy to correct oversteer. I was very good at drifting and car control in prologue, but in this, I can barely get around a corner without spinning.
Click to expand...

Maybe is because of the forced TC for the DS3/sixaxis users ? Currently I'm playing with my gamepad, but i have a fleeling that I'm gonna like it using a wheel. The only problem that i got with this demo - I can't be smooth (as i like while playing with a wheel) with the pad
 
Vuduegg
by turning the steering in too much
Click to expand...

Something I have noticed is very common, especially in people driving in sims. but I just explain "You're turning the wheel too much"


Vuduegg
2) by over accelerating on a turn...then surely the method that one uses to prevent or correct them would have to relate to the action that causes the problem.
Click to expand...

Power oversteer is just one way to get the back out (oversteer), there are many others which is also oversteer.

All racing publications, driving schools and all racing drivers refer to oversteer as the rear slip exceeding the front slip.
 
bubbajan21
It seems like people playing with a controller are liking the demo better than those playing with a wheel. I am playing with a G25, and I really don't like the feel of the car and how it spins (and I hate that there is no clutch support), but alot of people playing with a controller are saying that it is too easy to correct oversteer. I was very good at drifting and car control in prologue, but in this, I can barely get around a corner without spinning.
Click to expand...

The demo became 1000x better when I broke out my wheel.

The game just feels so natural. Playing GT3, and GT4, GT5P, etc, I've found myself scratching my head at the physics at times. In GT5D, it doesn't happen nearly as much. They might not be perfect, but I feel that they are very good.

In fact, I doubted GT5D a little after reading some posts in this thread, when I went back to GT to see, I was even more impressed with the physics. Again, I cannot confirm or disprove if they are 100% accurate (the only hope of that would either be me driving a 370 around Indy, or PD releasing an FSAE based demo), but they match what I learned and what I've experience in reality better than anything else I've tried.
 
All racing publications, driving schools and all racing drivers refer to oversteer as the rear slip exceeding the front slip.
Click to expand...
Which it is.

Okay, according to Walter Röhrl:
"Its understeer when you can see the tree you will hit, oversteer is when you only hear and feel it." (rough translation from me)
 
Jay
Something I have noticed is very common, especially in people driving in sims. but I just explain "You're turning the wheel too much"




Power oversteer is just one way to get the back out (oversteer), there are many others which is also oversteer.

All racing publications, driving schools and all racing drivers refer to oversteer as the rear slip exceeding the front slip.
Click to expand...

Understood. So when oversteer occurs, regardless of how its caused, is the counter always the same, or does it vary according to how you get into oversteer?
 
if your sitting perfectly still on the grass, and just tap the throttle, very lightly, the car continues to move very slowly forever.....or until it hits the road again...

even ice doesn't have that good a friction coefficient :dunce:
 

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