demo physics discussion

[profi]

It seems like people playing with a controller are liking the demo better than those playing with a wheel. I am playing with a G25, and I really don't like the feel of the car and how it spins (and I hate that there is no clutch support), but alot of people playing with a controller are saying that it is too easy to correct oversteer. I was very good at drifting and car control in prologue, but in this, I can barely get around a corner without spinning.

It is not "too easy" with a controller (pad) now, but it is the first time we are actually able to control the car.

Whereas before the demo it was "random" to stay on the track or spin out when trying to correct any oversteer...

NOW we have control ! * And NOW the wheel users can be beaten by a pad user. I like it... guess why...


* Not really though... because of this problem here:
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=123717

 

[Bekimche]

that's odd. in gt5p I can get higher scores in drifting (because of the handbrake) than using my wheel, it was extremely easy to control a car with a pad

 

[profi]

that's odd. in gt5p I can get higher scores in drifting (because of the handbrake) than using my wheel, it was extremely easy to control a car with a pad

Drifting is nice, makes fun and produces slow laptimes. Try going fast (I mean really fast like TT Demo 1.36.xx) by using a sixasis / DS3 in Prologue...

 

[Bekimche]

Yeah fair enough. You were talking about control so I thought...yeah

 

[Raitziger]

after playing fm3 for a few hours now here is a physics comparison

GT5d physics model > FM3 physics model > GT5P physics model

GT5d is as real as it gets on consoles, not perfect but , it closer than any to the real thing

Using wheel(which) or a pad?

 

[CoolColJ]

Guys I put this video together.

not looking for arguments...just a simple comparison with tire models.

well that's one issue I've had with the GT series, after all this time, you still can't do a proper donut. That points to a serious problem with the tyre model. And tyres are the fundamental basis for the behaviour of a car. If you can't get the foundation right, then everything on top of it isn't going to react properly


I remember, the same issue with the older GTs, having to continuously crank the hand brake to simulate a donut

I dunno, maybe that tells you GT5's physics is somewhat canned....

 

[Bekimche]

even in GT5p you couldn't spin the car from a stand still, you had to be moving first. But at least you could drift well in it, that more than makes up for not being able to do proper donuts.

 

[Zathra5_]

Remember LFS models mostly fake cars. When they tried to implement the scirocco in the game they found that their tire model was deeply flawed. Enough that they won't release the scirocco until the tire model is fixed. Whereas GT works decently with almost a thousand different cars and appears to be the only game to try and model the intricacies of all these cars. The way that I understand that PD does their modelling is that they model the car and the performance of the car comes out of how they model it (not just fudging the model to fit). The fact that they represent their real world counterparts very well is pretty amazing. Just something to keep in mind when trying to judge the physics.

 

[mtgear1]

Using wheel(which) or a pad?

wheel... 370z in GT5D is more challenging and fun to drive than a carrera GT in FM3, didn't know it was that easy to drive a carrera gt for the 1st time without spinning out, or i'm just that good

 

[Wakkaman]

Zathra5_ offcourse.

But that's exactly why gt5 isn't as good speeking of physics compared to lfs 2 or iracing or netkar pro. There are just to many cars to simulate properly and altho they are doing a pretty good job, the physics aren't as good as some pc sims. I think people take the "real driving simulator" to serious with gt5.

I think gt5 developers have just different goals then the netkar pro or iracing developers. Iracing has only 17 cars but with way better physics and laser scanned tracks. Laser scanned tracks are especially important in iracing becease it's more like a training tool.

Gt5 is more a semisim to just have fun instead of a serious simulator. And i love gt5 for what it is.

(srry for my broken english)

 

[Raitziger]

i would be happy if they just make the FFB work like it works in LFS or forza. Physics aren't that bad on GT5 but you can not feel edges of grip or tale going loose to well. And also get rid of wheel shaking on the straights with g27 and turbo s wheels.

 

[Shinu]

gt5 overall whats in the package (not number of tracks or cars but physics, graphics,fun factor and so on > PC sim's)

and even pc sim physics are not 100% great , i think they are specific in some areas (LFS-tires and so on)

GT instead of beeing great in one area of physics, it's good in all of them .

 

[Bekimche]

Imagine GT5's content with LFS's tire model. I will never play a different driving game ever again! lol. Anyways...I was thinking...

Could the "not being able to control a powerslide/drift" issue have something to do with the steering lock? They probably haven't set the steering lock to its correct real life setting on the 370z that's why you can't really get in touch with what the car is saying to you. Can someone test this with LFS? I would do it, but it's too late/early in the morning. Set the steering lock very low and try and hit a sweet spot where the wheel turns like it does on GT5 then try and drift. See if you can hold it. I have a feeling that this is probably the major cause for it...just a hunch

 

[Shinu]

Also i think the tire wear and maybe temp is off in gt5 tt demo because i personally don't feel the difference if it's lap 1 or lap 10 (i can go as fast).

If you think about it fuel weight and tire wear adds a lot to the physics

 

[G.T.Ace]

Theres no tyre wear in the demo.

 

[greenall69]

Ive never been more pissed off in my life. The whole game is like driving on ice. I hate it!!!! Even with R1's its absolutely horrible.

its realistic tbh, just got to get hang of it. i didn't like prologue but this is on another leve,l point here is driving SIMULATOR. i personally hope the game physics are exactly like this i want a game to play and master over time, not 2 hours. online will be tense as hell 1 mistake and you know your gonna have to do some SERIOUS driving to make up the time. This is exactly what i'v been waiting for a SIMULATION well done pd you nailed it.

Note to new member:

No slang words that promote laziness, ie; “r”, “u”, “plz”, etc. will be tolerated. Decent grammar is expected, including proper usage of capital letters.

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[Pharaoh 117]

i would be happy if they just make the FFB work like it works in LFS or forza. Physics aren't that bad on GT5 but you can not feel edges of grip or tale going loose to well. And also get rid of wheel shaking on the straights with g27 and turbo s wheels.

I agree 100%.

FFB in GT5 (Prologue and Trial) are just horrible and it hurts the driving because you have to rely in other "feedbacks" to feel when your loosing the car.

What bugs me is that Kaz races in real life. He should know FFB is broke.

 

[Raitziger]

What bugs me is that Kaz races in real life. He should know FFB is broke.

Kaz is super smooth. He does not go over the grip limit

 

[CoolColJ]

Hearing the same tyre squeal whether your sliding, spinning wheels, taking a corner with minimal slip, or braking confuses the issue even fruther...
The brakes have ABS right? So whey do they squeal? They don't seem to be locking up and I can steer it fine with the tyres screaming....


Same old GT

ABout the Donut issue
this tells me the physics engine is canned and not modelled so emergent behaviour occurs. Just by how it drives and the lack of intuitive control and feedback backs that up IMO

basicly it means GT5 may have "scripts" that determine how a car behaves. If you ever play a script driven game or AI you will know how that works. Whereas a proper modelled physics engine might work more like a sandbox game/environment. The parameters and limits are loosely set, but whatever happens inside the sandbox is a lot more varied

 

[ItsHim]

There you go then, free donuts for everyone:

 

[myke6699]

I agree 100%.

FFB in GT5 (Prologue and Trial) are just horrible and it hurts the driving because you have to rely in other "feedbacks" to feel when your loosing the car.

What bugs me is that Kaz races in real life. He should know FFB is broke.

I can feel the limit no problem- just like in other "sim" you need to listen and to feel the feedback- sometimes it takes a few moment of frustration or sometimes it may not be your cup of tea. LFS is its development team's interpretation of how the car and tires should feel and other sims have their own interpretations but as with other things in life, you either find the one that which agrees to what you think is right, or you adapt, appreciate and understand that one of life's challenge is to not limit yourself to a single point of view- no pun intended

i would be happy if they just make the FFB work like it works in LFS or forza. Physics aren't that bad on GT5 but you can not feel edges of grip or tale going loose to well. And also get rid of wheel shaking on the straights with g27 and turbo s wheels.

On the screen where you choose you car, here's the description of the Normal 370Z:

This is time trial in a stock 370Z. Because it is equipped with lower gripping normal class tires, you will need to drive very carefully at all times. It will especially be important to avoid unnecessary slippage of the tires by exercising precise throttle control.

I strongly believe the everyone should have the right voice their opinions but sometimes a bit of discretion and research can help you form a much concrete point of view.

The standard 370Z comes with and Yoko Advan 225/50R18 upfront and a slightly wider 245- an OEM tires for the 370Z (a more expensive upgrade option for the 370Z is a stickier Potenza RE050A, 245 front and 275 rear). I'm quite sure from the earlier screenshot released by PD, that it's the Yoko.

I'm sure not many of us have actually use the car/tire combination to make assumption of how the tires/car should behave at highest speed. What PD has done might've been wrong but to assume that other developers got them right is every bit as naive.

 

[Shinu]

Theres no tyre wear in the demo.

Yes! And I think its one of the big parts which involves in the handling of the car.

Each corner your car behaves differently. Its not just the grip mechanics that make LFS tire physics so good.

 

[Loeb80]

..this is the best way to explain the amazing GT5 Time Trial demo physic guys......



load displacement.. car reactions.. traction... simply perfect imho.. 👍

 

[Pharaoh 117]

I can feel the limit no problem- just like in other "sim" you need to listen and to feel the feedback- sometimes it takes a few moment of frustration or sometimes it may not be your cup of tea. LFS is its development team's interpretation of how the car and tires should feel and other sims have their own interpretations but as with other things in life, you either find the one that which agrees to what you think is right, or you adapt, appreciate and understand that one of life's challenge is to not limit yourself to a single point of view- no pun intended

Well, I don`t think Kaz "interpretation" of FFB is right and iRacing, NKpro, rFactor, Forza and LFS (just to name a few) is wrong.

We have reality as a benchmark. The way the FFB tries to simulate a car`s behaviour in GT is wrong, or at least is farther from right than all those Sims I`ve listed above.

In those Sims you can tell when you`re driving in the limit and you`re about to lose the car. In GT you can`t rely on the FFB to do that. The force apllied in the wheel stays the same during the corner and when you realize you`re going to lose the car is already too late.

Of course with training you can learn how to overcome it (well, with training you can even learn how to drive with the FFB turned Off) but that just doesn`t make it right.

 

[Bekimche]

..this is the best way to explain the amazing GT5 Time Trial demo physic guys......



load displacement.. car reactions.. traction... simply perfect imho.. 👍

If you watch closely, the car is VERY nervous. Also have a look at the front wheels in certain places. Watch when the car is straightened how nervous it gets and it just wants to sea saw everywhere but by some miracle this driver is very fast and has probably practiced for far too long. It's very impressive he is able to drift it well. The point is, when driving and drifting the car yourself with a wheel, it seems extremely difficult just to hold a slide and the car becomes very nervous. Any drifter should be able to spend about 5 - 10 mins with the game to get familiar with it and be able to drift. I don't know how the guy on the video managed to do what he did, but I tell you it wouldn't of been easy, he would of been sweating his ass off lol. There is obviously a problem with the tire model, but I think most importantly its the way steering and throttle are handled by the game, which I think is causing the problem. I can't exactly pin point what it is, but there is something definitely wrong and out there in real life, it isn't at all as difficult as it is portrayed in the game.

ABout the Donut issue
this tells me the physics engine is canned and not modelled so emergent behaviour occurs. Just by how it drives and the lack of intuitive control and feedback backs that up IMO

basicly it means GT5 may have "scripts" that determine how a car behaves. If you ever play a script driven game or AI you will know how that works. Whereas a proper modelled physics engine might work more like a sandbox game/environment. The parameters and limits are loosely set, but whatever happens inside the sandbox is a lot more varied

👍 I agree with you here 100% I have always thought the same thing, just never knew how to put it into words.

 

[unv412]

If you watch closely, the car is VERY nervous. Also have a look at the front wheels in certain places. Watch when the car is straightened how nervous it gets and it just wants to sea saw everywhere but by some miracle this driver is very fast and has probably practiced for far too long. It's very impressive he is able to drift it well. The point is, when driving and drifting the car yourself with a wheel, it seems extremely difficult just to hold a slide and the car becomes very nervous. Any drifter should be able to spend about 5 - 10 mins with the game to get familiar with it and be able to drift. I don't know how the guy on the video managed to do what he did, but I tell you it wouldn't of been easy, he would of been sweating his ass off lol. There is obviously a problem with the tire model, but I think most importantly its the way steering and throttle are handled by the game, which I think is causing the problem. I can't exactly pin point what it is, but there is something definitely wrong and out there in real life, it isn't at all as difficult as it is portrayed in the game.

every thing you said is true....."you have to practice for far too long" ....."it seems extremely difficult just to hold a slide and the car becomes very nervous"....this is all true in real life at those speeds because if it wasnt my mum could drift as wel
and to confirm this from my point of veiw (having drifted at track days in all sorts of standard to modifed cars) it is difficult to hold and complete a drift in a standard (non drift set up car) car because the road holding and suspension travel travel work against the acomplishment of a nice clean drift!

 

[Raitziger]

That video just clarifies my point. You can drift in the demo so physics are not too bad. Only the FFB info about grip limits and tale letting go is missing. The truth of course is that we would know this only after FFB is corrected and see how drifting feels.

 

[Coxis]

its realistic tbh, just got to get hang of it. i didn't like prologue but this is on another leve,l point here is driving SIMULATOR. i personally hope the game physics are exactly like this i want a game to play and master over time, not 2 hours. online will be tense as hell 1 mistake and you know your gonna have to do some SERIOUS driving to make up the time. This is exactly what i'v been waiting for a SIMULATION well done pd you nailed it.

Note to new member:

No slang words that promote laziness, ie; “r”, “u”, “plz”, etc. will be tolerated. Decent grammar is expected, including proper usage of capital letters.

https://www.gtplanet.net/aup/

Not to be a smartypants, but... You should walk the walk, brother. Your post contained an example of each of the points mentioned in the AUP's quote.

 

[newbielives]

I love the physics for racing but playing around with it a bit in the normal Z, it seems almost impossible to drift in 2nd gear as the rear will always swing out. Now I don't know if this is realistic or not but drifting in 3rd seems to work quite well but, from what others have been saying, that seems unrealistic for a car of this power.

 

[myke6699]

Well, I don`t think Kaz "interpretation" of FFB is right and iRacing, NKpro, rFactor, Forza and LFS (just to name a few) is wrong.

We have reality as a benchmark. The way the FFB tries to simulate a car`s behaviour in GT is wrong, or at least is farther from right than all those Sims I`ve listed above.

In those Sims you can tell when you`re driving in the limit and you`re about to lose the car. In GT you can`t rely on the FFB to do that. The force apllied in the wheel stays the same during the corner and when you realize you`re going to lose the car is already too late.

Of course with training you can learn how to overcome it (well, with training you can even learn how to drive with the FFB turned Off) but that just doesn`t make it right.

Driving at the car's limit (and inconsequently the tires) is such an abstract concept even in real life that unless you're a seasoned racer, my advice is to first stick to knowing what your limit is.

You have to understand the paradox that involves when you try to simulate a game/sim that revolves around production cars is that while the cars themselves allow for a pretty good margin of error, there need to be a more defined limit (and senses) to the game or else it will be too easy.

It's a balancing act that as a gamer, you have to relish the fact that you're being challenged as oppose to seeing it as something you need to overcome. If it's not fun, what's the point.

well that's one issue I've had with the GT series, after all this time, you still can't do a proper donut. That points to a serious problem with the tyre model. And tyres are the fundamental basis for the behaviour of a car. If you can't get the foundation right, then everything on top of it isn't going to react properly


I remember, the same issue with the older GTs, having to continuously crank the hand brake to simulate a donut

I dunno, maybe that tells you GT5's physics is somewhat canned....

[YOUTUBEHD]rG4ZJcKSj6A[/YOUTUBEHD]

With an MR (mid-engined rear wheeled drive), it's cinch as it should in real life. An FR where most of its weight up front, you won't proper donut because of the weight distribution. It doesn't mean you can't- if the surface is wet enough anything goes.

Another thing to consider is the tire's traction- the stickier the compound the harder it is for the rear tire to let loose. And you need to watch the rev since most vehicle comes with rev limiter (IRL).