Vintage & Later Model 2-Speed Low HP -Civics @ Deep Forest - Planning Race #2!

Vintage & Later Model 2 Speed Traffic Low HP Racing

Race #1 Civics @ Deep Forest - COMPLETE - Winners - ID_Racing & GTsail290!

Planning Race #2 now - post to get involved! (see end of thread for latest information)



The idea is to have vintage model & later model cars, each racing at different speeds in the same race.

Organized in the Vintage Car Race Club

You need not participate in each & every individual race to get involved.

Future races will be planned around flexible scheduling in attempt to
accommodate the host (me), & those who are interested.
IE: Race 2 will likely not be held at the same day/time, and may not happen immediately.
So sign up & pipe up about Race 2 to get involved in future scheduling!

1st race scheduled for:
21 July, Thursday
@ 10:00am US PDT / 1:00pm US EDT / 6:00pm BST/GMT+1 / 7:00pm CET

Race #1 cars:

Vintage Model:
Honda CIVIC 1500 3door CX ‘79
128hp / 780kg
Sports Medium Tires
No Aero

Later Model:
Honda CIVIC SiR-II (EG) '91
266hp / max reduced kg
Sports Medium Tires
No Aero

Race #1 track:

Deep Forest Raceway
36 laps

Race Description/Settings/Restrictions:

2 speed traffic: a vintage model & later model, same model &/or manufacturer (see list in 2nd post in thread)
Teams: paired for each race, one in the old model, one in the later model, those who don't team up will be paired
Power Range: All cars, including the faster, will be in the lower power range (ie: less than approx 300hp)
Tracks: from a selection of the short &/or tight tracks
Damage: Heavy
Aids: all aids off, except ABS & driving line
Tires: sports medium
Tire Wear/Fuel: On
Track Grip: Real
Grid Start: Fastest first
Penalty: OFF (to prevent ghosting of lapped cars)
Rules: Adherance to GTP OLR rules, with potential post-race penalties for contact incidents or flouting of the rules
Pit Stops: 1 mandatory pit stop (also required if tire wear/damage is causing car to be reckless on the track)
Car Restrictions: TBD after cars are settled upon, tuning & modifications allowed, but cars will not be at maxed out
Duration: plan for approximately 2 hours of time, including vision check, warm-up, qualifying, and racing
Race Length: races will be approximately 45 minutes of actual race time, not to exceed 1 hour
Car choices: aiming for an equal number of each car, and the host (me) will be waiting to make a car choice based on that (having both cars ready in case I need to even out the field)

Experience Level: varied - all welcome
All clean fair drivers welcome.
If you like the cars, in this race format... join the fun!
It doesn't matter if you're super fast & people think you're a human driving machine sent from the future... or if you drive like you've got grandma in the car. We're just looking to fill the grid & have some 2-speed traffic fun with some of the less obvious road cars.
If you have trouble attaining the car needed, speak up, and someone will likely be able to help you out.
If you need tips on tuning, just ask, someone will likely be able to point you in the right direction.
Pre-race group practices are good! Just post on this thread if you would like company practicing.

Stewardship: GTP OLR rules will be adhered to by all participants, and all participants are expected to understand and follow those rules, or ask for clarification in the event of any confusion.
Race incidents should be reported to the host, privately, and never posted on the public forum.
Reports will be investigated, and post-race penalties may be 'awarded' based on individual cases.

Basically, we're here to have fun. Accidents happen, a bump or scrape here & there happens with the cleanest of drivers at times. But if we were interested in crashing as a driving style, we would be in pub lobbies with boost on high, going bang bang!... instead of taking the time to organize & plan races here on the forum together! )
So we all will be expected to adhere to the same rules, so that we may all enjoy fair racing.

Points Schedule:
8 later model cars
1st: 19, 2nd: 17, 3rd: 16, 4th: 15, 5th: 14, 6th: 13, 7th: 12, 8th: 11,
9th: 10, 10th: 8, 11th: 7, 12th: 6, 13th: 5, 14th: 4, 15th: 3, 16th: 2
7 later model cars
1st: 17, 2nd: 15, 3rd: 14, 4th: 13, 5th: 12, 6th: 11, 7th: 10,
8th: 9, 9th: 7, 10th: 6, 11th: 5, 12th: 4, 13th: 3, 14th: 2
Will be adjusted depending upon how many teams/cars are on the track, according to this scheme.
(1 point if the car is parked or in the pit to give up instead of driving to the end. Zero for pre-finish exits.)
Results will be based on combined points for teams, & individual finishes in each car model.

Race procedure:

If you are interested in this racing series, please post to sign up & get involved for the scheduling & planning for future races. Cars & tracks to be used in future races will be based upon polling of those interested.

Race 1 Registry:
Time: 21 July, Thursday,
@ 7:00pm CET / 6:00pm BST/GMT+1 / 1:00pm US EDT / 10:00am US PDT
Cars: Honda CIVIC 1500 3door CX ‘79 & Honda CIVIC SiR-II (EG) '91
Track: Deep Forest
Laps: TBD

* watermelonpunch / wat3rm370n / kiwi green / (Vintage Model)
* ID_Racing / ID_Racing / TBD / (Later Model)
* jackargent / jackargent / raspberry red pearl / (Vintage Model)
* gtsail290 / gtsail290 / TBD / (Vintage Model)
* CC570 / CC570 / TBD / (TBD)
* aceboy127 / aceboy127 / TBD / (Later Model)
* Jujubean / Jujubean14 / TBD / (Later Model)
* Thaddaeus / thaddontes / TBD / (TBD)
* akmuq / GTP_akmuq / TBD / (Later Model)
* Epicentre / Epicentre-nl / TBD / (TBD)

Race #1 - Civics @ Deep Forest - RESULTS

Vintage Model: Honda CIVIC 1500 3door CX ‘79

1.) gtsail290 / gtsail290 / blue
2.) watermelonpunch / wat3rm370n / kiwi green
3.) jackargent / jackargent / raspberry red pearl
4.) Epicentre / Epicentre-nl / lime green

Later Model: Honda CIVIC SiR-II (EG) '91

1.) ID_Racing / ID_Racing / red
2.) akmuq / GTP_akmuq / blue
3.) aceboy127 / aceboy127 / red
4.) CC570 / CC570 / black

Race 2 Registry:
Time: TBD
Cars: TBD
Track: TBD
Laps: TBD

Interest registry:

* watermelonpunch / wat3rm370n /
* CC570 / CC570
* jackargent / jackargent
* akmuq / GTP_akmuq
* IMZIZ / IMZIZ

Future Race selection possibilities:

Car Pairs:
chosen for their makes, low hp, & contrast


* indicates the pairs that are actually quite similar and might be good for a closer 2-speed race
Green indicates the ones we're considering for Race 1.

Tracks:
chosen for their length (lack thereof)



Make suggestions from these lists for Race 2.
Never too early to be optimistic for future races.

7pm CET ?????????????! Is this a typo?...


(If not Im in, you know that..)

Race #1:
Ill go for the Honda, preferably the lightning fast one, but Id be happy to race the slower one too, if in the end it makes planning easier.
And Ill take Deep Forest. My hood.

I told you I was going to try extra special!
The event is posted in the forum calendar... so you can check what time it says there to make sure. (But believe me, every time I do time zone translation, I check again 3 times to make sure! lol)

And hopefully the field will be evened out. But of course it's encouraged to have both cars ready if you're willing to be flexible to even out the field in case of a lop-sided situation. I plan on having both cars ready myself, and I will of course be 1st to make the switch if necessary at the 11th hour or last minute.

And of course, even the later model won't really be lightening speed. heehee. Probably about 250hp.

Me me me!

Not sure about car... Will get back to you on that.

Colour will undoubtedly be raspberry red pearl

Holding out on your voting, eh?

jackargent

Colour will undoubtedly be raspberry red pearl

Click to expand...

I can't imagine how many I-Mievs you must have in your garage. haha.
I'll have to get together an I-Miev race. After the Death Tour & Schwimmwagen races of course.

Sounds like fun!

Sign me up. PSN: gtsail290

I'm partial for the Honda CIVIC's, either one, so that's my vote.

If you want my preference on the CIVIC's, I would say that I would rather race in the '79 one, but either would be fine really.

I'm afraid that I like both tracks, so I can't help you with this.

So my vote is for both tracks!


GTsail

I am in vote for vws at deep forest.

OK I will definitely be up for this if my schedule permits. I vote civics at autumn ring and I prefer later model

I vote beetles at deep forest

My preference is for the older model. (not sure that sounds right!!!)

& as previously revealed - raspberry red pearl shall be my colour - wait till you see the raspberry pimped old beetle. it is truly gorgeous.

But of course something about the Beetles seems to suggest to me candy-related colours. lol But I haven't painted any of the cars yet.

After working on testing the cars a bit, I really became torn with my choice. I'd originally planned on voting Civics. I also have had second thoughts about my vote for Autumn Ring after doing more testing at Deep Forest. haha.

I'm almost settled upon hp/weight restrictions for the cars. The newer model cars will probably be set at 266hp, and a weight just under their stock weight.
The older cars are a bit trickier. The vintage Beetle will have to be maxed hp, because it doesn't get up to 98hp, and that's the lowest hp restriction you can use. )

Whichever of the pairs gets chosen on whichever track... It looks to be like in a 45-60 minute race, the later model cars would be lapping the vintage cars about twice... as a guess at an average.
In theory.
Give or take, depending on driver speed, driver caution, damage, tire wear, pit stops, traffic, etc.
Should be exciting to see how it works out in actuality.

I think the civics would make for more exciting racing (based off of nothing but my suspicions). I vote for Deep Forest. I am not sure what color yet, but I will aim for something outrageous. As for new or vintage, it looks like more people are leaning vintage so I can go new to even out the pack.

Is it a problem, that I have the European version of the game? Its missing the lizzards, zebras, badgers or crazy giants (on most tracks). Might give me an advantage.

Just thought you should know.

ID_racing

Is it a problem, that I have the European version of the game? Its missing the lizzards, zebras, badgers or crazy giants (on most tracks). Might give me an advantage.

Just thought you should know.

Click to expand...

True, but the beige caravans can really slow you down!

I'd originally thought too that the Civics would be a little more peppy... But after testing, I found that the Beetles are not actually much, if any, slower... with the tire restriction at sports medium.
So I think there's not a huge difference in that. And I'm going for contrast.
Clearly the vintage Civic could be quite fast if it's maxed out, but it will not be maxed out... the restriction will be set at not much higher than it's stock hp. I think about 120-something hp.

How bout a Camaro RM/LM duo?

There's TONS of great combination possibilities for 2-speed races!
And I think it would be cool if others picked up on this 2-speed race idea & did any number of combination types... such as the WSCC has already started doing. (One is finished and I think they're planning another.)

But I'm pretty much sticking with the antique & lower power end of things, simply because nobody else bothers to organize races with the low power cars, except but a few of us!
There's tons of choices out there if you want to race muscle cars... and even old skylines for that matter.
I'm into road cars... as a general rule. I rarely ever drive any sports cars - ie: performance cars. They just don't interest me so much.

I've learned a lot following the 450pp Tuners Club thread. Whenever they have a vintage night... they always have very specific parameters (like limiting the years, limiting to comfort tires, limiting to 350pp, and limiting it to European cars or a specific country), in order to not have everyone just bringing the one & only performance car that would be competitive. They also take to banning particularly well-performing cars... All in an effort of getting to drive a wider variety of cars.

So I hope this explains where I'm going with the races I choose to organize & host. I want to include the many cars that there's just not too many opportunities to race them, because in most circumstances they're just not competitive, unless it's a one-make race, or a 2-make race like this kind of 2-speed race.

So here's a list of cars I'm considering for future races in this series:
SEE 2nd POST for lists of cars & tracks.

And of course, based upon interested parties, I'll do polling between them, for Race 2.

(Feel free to start throwing out suggestions, from these lists, for car pairs & tracks to include in the vote short-list for Race 2.)

FYI: I'm also coming up with a fun race with the Schwimmwagen!
It's bizarre, unrealistic, and most people I daresay have declared it "silly" or "useless", and think it shouldn't have been included in the game.
But I've seen several requests for races with this car all the same. So if nobody else is going to do it - I will! LOL

These combos are really so much fun, but it takes more skills than one would imagine, to be able to master both overtaking/being overtaken, pit strategies and battling the cars in your own class at the same time. At WSCC we have used the concept for the racing school, and as you say watermelon, for, hopefully, a series of single events, and it will be a main ingredient in a new thing being planned for after the summer break. Good events for learning, as most people who comes to WSCC thinking they are fast and clean, find out that they are really neither.
So Im all in for this, I think the tracks need to be the ones with the best flow, and with some easy opportunites for overtaking, long stretches, etc, where you can plan ahead where and how to overtake. You need a policy or rules for who stays on the drivingline, the slower or faster car, when overtaking, so its good you are allowing the driving line on.
I like the car combos that are vintage/new, but have some speed, you need some degree of power to make this work. The small fiats and VW´s may not be up to it.
Theres a lot of great 70´s and 80´s japanese production cars that can be matched with more modern versions, Im sure the old Nissans, Toyotas and Mitsubishis will be a lot of fun, if you want I can send you my list of all japanese 80´s cars in the game, there´s really a lot of fun cars to drive. Give them a complete rebuild and they are very responsive (and some very fast).
And as you do, keep the cars on street tires, some of these cars are a blast on even comfort softs! Keeping it real!

Im looking forward to this, even with or without beige caravans!

Yes, I agree - there's more strategy involved, I think, when there are cars of different speeds.
I very much enjoyed the WSCC 2-speed racing school race I participated in. Which is what prompted me to come up with this series.

And many times I think people think they are competitive, and believe that in a "slower" (lower hp car) they're going to be even better... But then it turns out that in a low performance car, it takes even more to be fast & clean.
Anyone can drive a razor sharp touring car on slicks. Road cars on lesser tires are different, and take a different type of driving.

Take for example, the comments I saw in one thread where someone said they were surprised during a race because they had great difficulty in a particular car, but said that they had no difficulty in this other faster car... well, the 2 cars were not at all comparable! The car they had no difficulty in was faster -but also a performance car! The car they had trouble with, it was less hp, but with poor handling. You simply can't compare a car with a road car chassis & FF drive train, to say a 4wd touring car. Very different.
For myself, in the WSCC Racing school 2-speed race... I think everyone would agree that the GT300 cars were much faster, but much easier to drive than the RM Cappucino!! The GT300 car that turbogeit gave me was a DREAM to drive!!! Whereas the RM Capp I have spent AGES working on the tuning set-up... still gives me troubles.
In another situation with another car... someone was very good with a tuned version of a car on slicks, once this person tried it on sports tires, it was not so easy, and they made many more mistakes & wipe-outs.
The different type of car and different tires makes much more difference in "ease" or "difficulty" than actual HP.

And while yes, some of these cars might seem not very peppy... The truth is, if you put them on what some people would call "appropriate tires"... they might not be fast, but they are not easy, and not "arcade-like".
(Usually so-called fast drivers simply become frustrated with this, of course, because it does take more caution & skill to go fast.)

If people think that this will be an "easy" race... that's probably a mistake. I think it would not be as difficult as the WSCC Corvette/RM Golf race... But not because the cars are slower, but because the track is shorter. Meaning that if you attain damage at the beginning of the lap, you won't have to drive 8 miles with the damage before pitting.

And yes, for the 1st race, I deliberately chose options of tracks that are not "too tight". I want to gauge just how difficult it will be for lap traffic, before trying this on a tighter track.
If it turns out that it goes well, then we could try a tighter track perhaps, and make it more challenging that way.

I have been considering to put the VW Beetles on comfort mediums... But I thought perhaps it was too much for the very first race of this type.

For example, the Fiats, as you see, I would put them on comfort medium tires, definitely. And I doubt anyone would find it completely easy that way, to get the most out of the Fiats.

And it is no random choice to make MEDIUMS the tire of choice for this series. (I spent much time looking at car specs, testing, and thinking of things like tire choice, etc.)
I chose medium tires for very good reason.
While some people can learn to drive on worn out soft tires, & drive fast from sloppy corner to sloppy corner, with little consequence (which is horribly unrealistic)... this is much more difficult to do on medium tires. On medium tires, the tire wear is more pronounced sooner, because the grip is less to begin with. Driving fast from sloppy corner to sloppy corner with medium tires wearing, makes for consequences.

I have learned this from watching people in sports soft races driving quite fast on completely black tires (tires which are completely or nearly completely worn according to tire indicator)... Driving on "black tires" also makes them ghost if penalties are on...
In one race (with no mandatory pit stops), a car passed me by driving right through my car fast, staying on the line, because he knew he was ghosted because his tires were black & that he could drive right through my car (which I think was inappropriate & definitely unrealistic! lol). And yet he seemed to be doing okay - probably because he's made it a point to learn to do that. A lot of crafty people have learned to do that on soft tires, to implement a no-pit strategy. I was warned about this early on when coming to this forum a few months ago. I'd asked why there were "mandatory pit stops" in most of the organized races. And it was explained to me that many people do this if there are no mandatory pit stops -and particularly if they are able to use soft tires... because it is possible to do.
(In real life, soft tires would only be used for very short distances. And it would be impossible to drive 80 miles at racing speeds on hot, worn, soft tires.)

ID_racing

Im looking forward to this, even with or without beige caravans!

Click to expand...

Is someone going to explain this reference to me?
What on earth is a beige caravan?

watermelonpunch

Driving on "black tires" also makes them ghost if penalties are on...
In one race (with no mandatory pit stops), a car passed me by driving right through my car fast, staying on the line, because he knew he was ghosted because his tires were black & that he could drive right through my car (which I think was inappropriate & definitely unrealistic! lol). And yet he seemed to be doing okay - probably because he's made it a point to learn to do that. A lot of crafty people have learned to do that on soft tires, to implement a no-pit strategy. I was warned about this early on when coming to this forum a few months ago. I'd asked why there were "mandatory pit stops" in most of the organized races. And it was explained to me that many people do this if there are no mandatory pit stops -and particularly if they are able to use soft tires... because it is possible to do.

Click to expand...

Amazing how many people actually exploit these glitches in the game. It really should be top priority by PD to solve these issues. It takes forever stewarding these races because of that. No more funny updates, solve the online racing issues!

beige caravans? ask Jack.

RE: cornering rights, passing, & lapping.

We are using the GTP OLR Rules.
And as far as I can see nothing changes, except that if you are in the vintage model, you should not deliberately block the later model car.

For example, according to the rules, you are allowed to change your line once during a straight to block, and then move to the line of your choice before the next corner. If you are in the vintage model car, it would not be appropriate to do this to the later model car, nor should it ever be done to a lapping car, in any race using the GTP OLR Rules.
Frankly, it would also be unwise to do this to the later model car that is going faster. (Sounds to me like a vintage car blocking a later model car would be a recipe for disaster for both cars!)

Otherwise, the lead car always has cornering rights, but should be expected, as always, to hold their line - either the inside side of the track, or the racing line, through the corner, if another car is in the process of attempting a pass.
And it is up to the faster car to take the outside line, for example, to pass at the corner. Or wait to pass on the straight. (Waiting to pass on the straight is probably the wiser of the 2 options anyway!)

I believe this is the same rules as WSCC, no? I believe this was the rule in the WSCC Racing School 2-speed race. And I think it makes sense.

In the race where I was in the GT300 (faster) car... I never passed the RM Capps at the corners. It was too dangerous, the RM Capps were too unstable, unsettled, and unpredictable. So I passed them at straight sections. I think I did well for not having ever driven a GT300 car before! And I sustained NO damage in that race at all.

RE: exploiting glitches... I feel the same way you do ID_Racing. You know that. When I'm coming up with a race idea and trying to organize a race, I seem to spend much time figuring out ways to prevent cheating & game flaw exploitation. But it must be done, so we all can compete in fair & fun races.

RE: jackargent & his fairport convention 8-track tapes have some explaining to do. LOL

watermelonpunch

RE: cornering rights, passing, & lapping.

I believe this is the same rules as WSCC, no? I believe this was the rule in the WSCC Racing School 2-speed race. And I think it makes sense.

Click to expand...

-thanks for clarifying, yes, I think so too, it does make a lot of sense, I know it takes a LOT of hard work setting these races up, so they can be enjoyable for everyone, and you are certanly putting in the hours 👍

Fairport Convention? Schucks..I thought it was the Grateful Dead!

sign me up also please. sounds interesting. Havent planned the 21st yet but guess its ok. Might be a litle bit late, as im home at 7pm at the earliest.
have you posted the event in the fun racer group yet? Guess there are some more potential participants around.

Glad to have you Thaddeus.

I did send a link to DJAbacus @ Fun Racers, but I don't know if he's even had a chance to look at the race himself.

Definitely pass on the link to this race to anyone you think might be interested. I'd be thrilled to have a reserve list. (As generally there's a few no shows in the end, often probably due to unavoidable real life things cropping up.)
So the more the merrier!
Tell your friends!

As for the timing. I'm sorry it's cutting it so close for you. BUT, 7pm CET is NOT race start time. It will start with a warm-up & Vision Check period.

First, I think it's a good idea with a longer race like this, especially with 2-speed traffic, (at least for me lol), to have a warm-up period, where people can get comfy in the car on the track before actual qualifying starts.

Second, a Vision Check is particularly important in a race like this, so we can solve any invisible car issues, to ensure everyone has a good race where all cars are visible to all other cars.
Those who have had problems in other races with "invisible cars", should make a special effort to arrive on time, on the hour.
If you don't usually have "invisible car" problems, being a few minutes late will probably not matter, except that you won't get as much warm-up time in before qualifying.
For example, in my experience, it's usually the same people who have invisible car problems with certain other people. I have no clue why. I've never had invisible cars... and I don't know why. Some people have the problem often... and don't know why.
I wish PD would explain this!!!

I know I probably seem like a bit of a stickler about this. But I'd rather take the time to solve these problems, and have time to solve these problems, so that everyone can participate. (Some races, you're just asked to withdraw if you have the problem & can't solve it yourself. I'm willing to work to solve this problem for everyone, because we're a pretty close-knit core group & I like racing with all of you! )
And of course especially in a stewarded traffic race like this - it would be a bad thing for people not seeing other cars!

That is why I say plan for the event to take 2 hours... even though the actual race will not exceed 1 hour on track race time.
The 2 hours include: warm-up, Vision Check, solving invisible car problems, the actual race, and hopefully allow a little time for post-race chat as well.

This is also why I haven't set a lap # for the tracks yet.
I'm waiting to see what cars & what track we'll be on for sure. And then I plan to have some group practices with the cars at the planned restrictions... Where I can get a better idea of lap times, to better be able to set the lap amount to make for a 45-60 minute race.

I've never planned a race before with pit stops!! So I'm hesitating to base race duration based on my lap times & pit strategy alone, since I'm by no means the fastest driver who will be in this race. Not to mention I think I'm particularly poor regarding tire wear with the late model Civic.

I'm hoping to get in a group practice race of at least 20-30 minutes, with at least 1 of each model car... sometime after the poll closes & decision is made on Thursday.
If anyone is interested in participating in this test/practice race, please let me know that you are interested, and let me know when is a good time! I'm pretty flexible later this week.

Oh, and also I'll probably be doing testing in my lounge even before then, and of course feel free to stop by if that's the case. (It will be pretty obvious what's going on if you pop in.)

watermelonpunch

Is someone going to explain this reference to me?
What on earth is a beige caravan?

Click to expand...

jackargent

Click to expand...

Ah... in my part of the world, they're called "campers".
And the kind that drive themselves (rather than being hitched) are called "recreational vehicles".

That would be quite a thing to have in the way on the race track. LOL
Also big bass boats with huge outboard motors on trailers attached to pick-up trucks could also be quite a frightening thing to stick on the Nurburgring.

Polling will close & decision made, 14 July, Thursday
@ 10:00am US PDT / 1:00pm US EDT / 6:00pm BST/GMT+1 / 7:00pm CET

That's less than 24 hours to put your vote in for Race #1.
So sign up now & vote if you haven't already, before the deadline.

At this point, Civics & Deep Forest are in the lead.


I've also updated the list of potential pairings for future races with a few more 80s Japanese selections. )

After our testing today with the Civics, I've come to decision about restrictions on the Civics.
Vintage Model, Honda CIVIC 1500 3door CX ‘79 -- (128hp/780kg)
Later Model, Honda CIVIC SiR-II (EG) '91 -- (266hp/max reduced kg)

(Highly recommend the fully adjustable LSD on especially the 91 Civic. )

Of course then our Elan race was great fun. And so I added a pair of Lotus to the future possibilities for 2-speed races.
And then I thought - what the heck, maybe someone will be interested in a 1-make race!! I really like that car now. It's really fun.
So I posted to gauge interest about that in the VCRC forum. (Request to join if you haven't already.)

Put me down please.
GTP_akmuq
Newer model car

Civics, Autumn Ring

Welcome! Glad to have you!
Added to the list...

Looking more & more like Civics... with less than 12 hours left.