What a good example of the snobish attitude displayed all to often in this thread.......your basically saying if somebody hasn't dropped $1000 on thier racing rigg then they have no place being involved in the debate.
God forbid somebody who has just the console and a controller be allowed to express an opinion huh?
although I am not sure how that can be thought of as saying anything other than "If you don't have the $1000+ rigg mentioned above then dont bother us with your opinion."
I don't think limiting the debate on physics to the 0.05% of players that have a top end rigg has any value. The games physics are shared by everybody no matter if they play with a little old controller or a ultra high end wheel and pedals in a full cockpit and the merits of the games physics can be debated in all of those configurations. Just my opinion.
When we talk about the physics - and as I am aware this thread is about physics - we have to really take into account the *final* mode for experiencing physics. And either we like it or not, that *final* end is playing both games on proper wheel (I will highlight the importance of *proper* in later replies downthere) with proper pedal set and without any assists.
This is internet, everybody is right on the internet and everybody has a right to his own opinion. But really, this is a driving community and we are all here because of the same love - to drive virtually. Of course, not everyone is willing or capable to invest same amount of money/time into that love, but there is really no debate about the fact how proper hardware can allow for much better and complete experience of the software.
So, when I am somewhat sarcastically proposing investment into hardware in order to comprehend why the experience of the physics is drastically different if that prerequisite is not met, I am not snobbish or elitist. I just happen to be either lucky or crazy enough to invest into the option that allows to me experience the physics model of both games in the *final* end. And once done, that experience allows me to come here and say how it is really pointless to discuss about physics of both games if that *final* is not experienced by the both sides. I do not see anything snobbish or elitist there, but you're welcome to call me names - I have already used to that.
Also worth noticing is how I agree that using controllers on both games can give some idea about the physics involved beneath, but both games are also having invisible assists in controller modes that at the end results with somewhat dumbed-down sensation of physics. Forza 4 have steering buffer involved into controller even on Simulation setting, while GT5 goes even further and it *invisibly* recognizes input devices and alters the steering to the device selected. Thus both sensations on both games can't be on the *final* end because of that and experiences and sensations between the players who are using different devices are very different.
Even further, sensations of physics are also greatly different inside each of the games. You really can't discuss physics of the Forza without heading into the unforgiving world of full 900-steering in the Simulation mode which is the only mode that simulates the accurate tyre-thereshold, limits of suspension travel and realistic grip of the compounds. Also, physics of GT5 does not become fully released before you disengage the braking assist (arbitrary and wrongly named "ABS", although it has nothing to do with the actual ABS and it is nothing but supernatural braking assist) where actual characteristics of the particular vehicle become *alive*.
I am saying all this because I want to explain why it is really pointless to ague about something without taking everything that both games offer/presents in full and than come with the conclusions.
I do not say how differences can't be debated and I would never think that. But it becomes really annoying to read thousands of posts where people come and brag about something they didn't experienced properly and once you try to explain why something they say is basically not accurate, you become "snob" or "elitist". Which is really not fair nor adds any value to particular discussion.
While adequate equipment is good to have it shouldn't be necessary to have the best possible wheel to tell the difference. For example the DFP I have had since the year GT4 came out has been more than enough to make it possible for me to tell the difference between different games.
Just in case no-one wants to read back,yes i have a wheel,fanatec porsche turbo s with clubsports and six speed shifter,i use the clutch on anything it allows.
Unfortunately, in order to experience physics of both games in their full potential, the best possible hardware is really necessary.
For example, older Logitech wheel family uses now very old FF technology and older versions of TouchSense software. Playing GT5 on DFP for example can never provide an actual sensation of the physics, because that wheel just can't transfer all details of physics provided by the game.
Same goes for Fanatec wheels. Unfortunately, only the latest CSR family of wheels are capable of simulating both physics complexity in full.
Please do not take this as an insult, I quoted your posts because you're both referring to the somewhat older wheels and I used your posts as an examples. I was lucky owner of all models of Logitech wheels and many Fanatec models through last decade. But complexity of the wheel support and new SDK libraries of both games are full generation ahead of those older models. I was blown-away by the difference of sensation between my Fanatec GT2 model and CSR Elite in both GT5 and FM4 - and those two models are separated by just one year. However, sensation feels like a different game. Same goes for GT5. And also there is a vast difference once we begin to talk about the brakes and feeling of braking, which is another lengthy subject...
And even then in motion F4 is ten times smoother and at least has a rock solid framerate wich i find mouch more important to a racing game. Again consistancy over graphics. 👍
A tad hyperbolic, yes? Going into graphics is not a subject of this thread, but to be as much polite as I can, what you've said is plain not accurate on too many levels. Both games are taking heavy compromises in graphical department in order to met goals of desired performance and you can find such "shortcuts" everywhere in both titles.
They both have good engines, but it depends on what you prefer, Forza feels more arcadey (like NFS), but GT5 feels much more realistic. For me Forza just isn't realistic enough
You should really try Forza on Simulation setting. GT5 is also very arcadish when played with the SRF/TCS/ABS assists (none of those assists are really a simulation of real-world traction control or ABS systems, they are just driving assists that dubms-down particular element of physics-complexity (either lateral/longitudinal movement of the suspension or real-time adjusting the tire-grip and limiting body-roll), same as Forza played on Standard physics.
Both games really becomes truly alive once you turn off all the assists and go into full simulation-setting.
To conclude on my personal stance of this matter, I find both games excels in their own area, with shortcomings in another. I will never agree with Scaff about the Forza's suspension-physics, because I personally find it very *dead* and not complex enough in terms of the actual sensation - although in basic numbers and variables it is probably more *accurate* than one of GT5.
For example, there is very interesting guy overthere on Gamefaqs forum who is using modded X360 console and he mods FM4 cars onthe same way we were doing backthan in era of GT1 and GT2 with Gameshark.
For example he discovered how brake upgrades in FM4 affects total braking power, disc size, caliper size, number of pistons and drum to disc conversions - which is something you can never "see" in the game, but is very flattering to know the complexity of mechanics-philosophy that FM4 hides beneath the surface.
Latest patches of FM4 drastically improved force feedback sensation and finally allowed for a real experience that was lacking to FM series until now. But I have to say how actual *connectivity* with the car is still not on the level of GT5, mainly because of lack of HID-connection (X360 uses wireless-enabled XID protocol where there is not direct contact of the steering device and motherboard), and I have really high hopes how NextBox will finally come with ability to have our wheels connected directly to USB and experience a proper HID FF effects. But current level of FF sensation is almost perfect and both T10 and Fanatec have to be congratulated for the result we can experience at this point.
I really love the feel of tyre-grip and tyre-thereshold in Forza 4 and I somehow prefer it over GT5's. In GT5 you can keep the grip and speed of movement even once you go into drift, while Forza portrays the grip-slip more realistically. However, *dead* suspension (and lack of connection through FF effect) are hurting that experience and equalize result regarding actual feel of physics. From my personal perspective I conclude how there is no clear winner in this "VS" match. I would like to see many details from GT5 physics in Forza (suspension physics, non-ABS sensation, grip levels of *normal* tyres, wheel support and FF sensation..) and vice-versa (tyre-thersehold, tyre-grip slippage, low-speed collision physics, overall torque simulation, etc..). But both games are providing almost impossible level of accuracy in what they do and they're equally good. If I could travel to future from 1997 and experience what I am taking for granted today in 2012 in the genre, I would probably go crazy thinking what have I experienced and will never believe we will actually be where we are today in less than 15 years.
I would really love that as many people as possible have the time, funds or will to experience what I tried to highlight in above post so we can discuss it from the same perspective. Now it may sound snobbish or whatever, but that is just the way it is. You can watch Avatar 3D on the old black&white set and it will be a very good looking movie. But when seen on 60" 3D plasma it will become a drastically different experience. Same with this subject we're talking about, unfortunately.
