GTP NASCAR SPRINT CUP S3 Champs: RFLX_Niop, Joe Gibbs Racing, Toyota

Not mentioned prior to now but can you please also mention brake checking. Either work with someone or back right off and away from the other car, rather than purposely hold them up.

Don't think it went unnoticed. You know who you are.

That wreck with Knelly was my fault, I thought I had the bottom covered but not enough. Hold my hand up there.

As with regards to brake checking, I don't know if that is meant to refer to me, but often when I was in a line I did back off the gas before turns, because I didn't want to get shot in the back of someone at bullet-speed triggering a wreck.

It wasn't you mate, the brake checking I mean. 👍

Knelly

It wasn't you mate, the brake checking I mean. 👍

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Who was brake checking, and when?

PM it to me, if you have to.

Knelly

It wasn't you mate, the brake checking I mean. 👍

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I know there was one time when you told me to go high so I went high but saw you coming and shifted low to avoid you but you ended up bumping me and that was unintentional and I apologise for that. I don't believe I brake-checked anyone and check the replay anyway.

Chqr, clear your inbox please

Cleared.

Thanks mate, and before others start second guessing, it wasn't Chqr either. PM sent Drop.

After looking into all reported incidents from Saturday, I'm going to avoid handing out about 4-7 different penalties, and give a final warning to everyone for all of these situations. Please be much more aware and respectful of each other, and these kinds of things shouldn't be an issue going forward.

Lap 34: Chqr/Mule - Coming in too fast for pit road at Daytona. Chqr appears to have ABS set to 0, as he locked up all four tires on entry and slid all the way to the grass, getting a drive through penalty. It looks like Mule just waited too long to brake, as I never saw his tires turn red like Chqr's did.

Lap 77: Furi/Knelly - It is the responsibility of BOTH drivers to make sure they are clear when one car gets out of the bottom lane. Furi needs to look before pulling back down to the bottom lane to make sure he is clear (as he accepted responsibility for above), just as Knelly needs to be sure he has enough space and time to pull down under Furi before sticking his nose underneath Furi's rear bumper.

Lap 97: Litchi/Knelly - See Lap 77. It's the exact same accident, but with Knelly driving under Litchi, but hitting the apron and pushing up into him, spinning them both around.

Lap 100: Mule/Knelly - Both drivers pulled straight out of pit road and up onto the track, well to the right of the inside lane of traffic, and well before they were up to speed at the end of the thick yellow line. Mule's early move on to the track caused a big chain-reaction accident. Knelly's early move on to the track caused him to get collected in the accident.

Lap 100: Knelly/Matty - Knelly's car has engine damage and full right-front suspension damage from the contact with Mule on the front stretch. Knelly continues to drive through the grass at full throttle, sliding back up on to the pavement in the middle of turn 2. Knelly manages to get back down to the apron, but when his suspension damage unloads, it throws his car back up on the banking, right in front of a fast-approaching Matty. Matty tries to go high to avoid Knelly's car. Knelly can't get control of his car in time, slides all the way up from the apron to the wall, and squeezes Matty into the wall. This spins Matty out against the wall.


With regard to brake-checking, rolling out of the throttle does not constitute brake-checking. Intentional brake-checking (quickly jabbing the brakes in an attempt to greatly slow down the car behind you) absolutely will not be tolerated, nor will any other forms of intentional dirty driving.

If you are not comfortable bumpdrafting with the car behind you, you should make every attempt to let the trailing car cleanly pass you. Go high in a corner (only if there are no other cars up there) and let off of the gas. Or, pull below the yellow line on the back straightaway and slow down until they have safely gone around you. Once the other car is past you, and you are clear to get back in line, you can do so. Don't hold them up if you can help it.

I totally agree with all of those incidents I was involved after looking at the replays.

I suppose the two incidents where I collided with you, Drop and almost took out Litchi and the 220 mph bump-draft with Furi were down to my lag which was existent as I've found out I exceeded my internet very considerably and o2 downgraded the speed for the past week.

Great stuff. Racing in this series and in WSC has really appreciated what it means to race in a big-time league with a relatively small but very clean grid. Very happy to continue on with GTP racing with this sort of racing. Really good stuff.

Well for the final one, I still quite strongly think the finishing positions should be swapped but it doesn't look like that's going to change unfortunately.

Will be back for Suzuka next week.

TomMcD

Well for the final one, I still think the finishing positions should be swapped but it doesn't look like that's going to change unfortunately.

Will be back for Suzuka next week.

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The suspension damage was the determining factor on that decision. If it hadn't just unloaded full right-front damage, there would be no question that it looked suspicious. However, you know how a car can suddenly change direction when damage unloads. Knelly promised me that he was completely unaware that Matty was coming up behind him, would never try to block a car like that, and I believe him.

MustangRyan

The suspension damage was the determining factor on that decision. If it hadn't just unloaded full right-front damage, there would be no question that it looked suspicious. However, you know how a car can suddenly change direction when damage unloads. Knelly promised me that he was completely unaware that Matty was coming up behind him, would never try to block a car like that, and I believe him.

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I know it was unintentional, like I said in my PM I know Knelly wouldn't do that. But that wasn't my point; my point was that Matty would have definitely made up that position were it not for the freak incident.

TomMcD

I know it was unintentional, like I said in my PM I know Knelly wouldn't do that. But that wasn't my point; my point was that Matty would have definitely made up that position were it not for the freak incident.

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I do agree that Matty definitely would have made the pass for fifth if not for the incident between he and Knelly coming out of turn 2. Does that entitle Matty to the position swap if the accident wasn't intentional?

MustangRyan

I do agree that Matty definitely would have made the pass for fifth if not for the incident between he and Knelly coming out of turn 2. Does that entitle Matty to the position swap if the accident wasn't intentional?

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In my opinion yes, as it was a dead cert, as you say.

Just got a PM from Knelly though which goes along the lines of 'if I get penalised some other guys sure as hell should'. Kind of agree; it seems every time we're at Daytona you give the same warnings and good advice and people just ignore it, it's a vicious cycle and kind of needs to stop.

It's okay to say, 'no penalty cos' that was accidental' but if there is intent or lack of general attentiveness/racing etiquette I think penalties need to be handed out to deter people.

Is there anyone particularly at fault for my wreck early on?

Carbonox

Is there anyone particularly at fault for my wreck early on?

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I haven't seen yours. Did you save the replay? Do you know what lap it happened?

Carb, early on Partyhat got loose and and tried to correct it, this backed the field up and I think you simply were in wrong place at wrong time.

I agree as well, I thought I cleared Knelly and he would not have the momentum for another run, but it was my error.

I think we have found a solution that will satisfy all parties concerned with the lap 100 accidents. I need to look at the replay one more time before I can be sure. Expect to see a post about it before 11pm EDT tonight (I'm working late today).

I hope no ones mad at me

I suggested to drop that any points that Knelly or Matty lose from this get taken off my total, since I was the bonehead who started it.

Carbonox

Is there anyone particularly at fault for my wreck early on?

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I got a tap from behind which sent me into partyhat, turning him sideways. He got it straightened out again after we made contact for a second time, and I guess whatever happened behind us ended up wrecking you.

I would just like to say that whatever words I call someone while on track and currently in a spin, is nothing more than heat of the moment and never intentional to anyone here.

I would just like to apologise to both Furi and Mule if they took any offence by my foul language.

Sorry.

Knelly

I would just like to say that whatever words I call someone while on track and currently in a spin, is nothing more than heat of the moment and never intentional to anyone here.

I would just like to apologise to both Furi and Mule if they took any offence by my foul language.

Sorry.

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It happens, we all get red mist moments. As long as we don't end up like Edwards and Keselowski we're cool 👍

I've watched it again and again and again since I've got home, and I think Mule's compromise works best.

MattyMc1996 was clearly going to overtake Knelly for 5th place right before the end-of-race countdown timer ran out. Matty only failed to complete the pass because Knelly's disabled car went all the way from the apron up to the wall and squeezed Matty's car into the wall, bringing it to a dead stop. Matty will be awarded the 5th finishing position, and Knelly will finish in the 6th position.

As a result of starting the incident that caused Knelly's car to become disabled at the start of lap 100, MULE will be assessed a 1 point penalty. That 1 point will be awarded to Knelly, as Mule feels Knelly wouldn't have been in the position to wreck Matty if it hadn't been for his own mistake to start lap 100 coming out of pit road too high too early.

Thus:
Matty finishes in the 5th spot that he would have if not for being wrecked.
Knelly gets the same points as if he had finished 5th, as a result of Mule being penalized.
Mule loses a point for causing the wreck that led to both drivers above being wrecked.

I'll count the laps tomorrow night after work, and have official results and standings posted.

No. Not accepting that. This is more than about the points now. This is about the principal if the matter, and having one rule penalising racing incidents, and another warning bad driving or bad sportsmanship.

Expect a more strongly worded post when I have time later.

Tom. Sorry I didn't defend your comment last night after you asked me to, as I was just trying to stay out of trouble. Screw that now.

First and foremost I am very angry and dissapointed. Maybe this should be put into a PM to the Host, but I'm past that and want to air my view and concerns as to a certain point I feel there is victimisation and favouritism throughout this whole ridiculous issue.

I would also like it noted that as far as I can remember during all three series of this league, I have never once put in an official complaint or asked for standings / points to be changed after the race is over. In my opinion what happens on track stays on track and if I have issues with certain drivers I generally deal with them on a personal basis to clear the air. However, I'm beyond that right now.

MustangRyan

Lap 77: Furi/Knelly - It is the responsibility of BOTH drivers to make sure they are clear when one car gets out of the bottom lane. Furi needs to look before pulling back down to the bottom lane to make sure he is clear (as he accepted responsibility for above), just as Knelly needs to be sure he has enough space and time to pull down under Furi before sticking his nose underneath Furi's rear bumper.

Lap 97: Litchi/Knelly - See Lap 77. It's the exact same accident, but with Knelly driving under Litchi, but hitting the apron and pushing up into him, spinning them both around.

Lap 100: Mule/Knelly - Both drivers pulled straight out of pit road and up onto the track, well to the right of the inside lane of traffic, and well before they were up to speed at the end of the thick yellow line. Mule's early move on to the track caused a big chain-reaction accident. Knelly's early move on to the track caused him to get collected in the accident.

Lap 100: Knelly/Matty - Knelly's car has engine damage and full right-front suspension damage from the contact with Mule on the front stretch. Knelly continues to drive through the grass at full throttle, sliding back up on to the pavement in the middle of turn 2. Knelly manages to get back down to the apron, but when his suspension damage unloads, it throws his car back up on the banking, right in front of a fast-approaching Matty. Matty tries to go high to avoid Knelly's car. Knelly can't get control of his car in time, slides all the way up from the apron to the wall, and squeezes Matty into the wall. This spins Matty out against the wall.

With regard to brake-checking, rolling out of the throttle does not constitute brake-checking. Intentional brake-checking (quickly jabbing the brakes in an attempt to greatly slow down the car behind you) absolutely will not be tolerated, nor will any other forms of intentional dirty driving.

If you are not comfortable bumpdrafting with the car behind you, you should make every attempt to let the trailing car cleanly pass you. Go high in a corner (only if there are no other cars up there) and let off of the gas. Or, pull below the yellow line on the back straightaway and slow down until they have safely gone around you. Once the other car is past you, and you are clear to get back in line, you can do so. Don't hold them up if you can help it.

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MustangRyan

The suspension damage was the determining factor on that decision. If it hadn't just unloaded full right-front damage, there would be no question that it looked suspicious. However, you know how a car can suddenly change direction when damage unloads. Knelly promised me that he was completely unaware that Matty was coming up behind him, would never try to block a car like that, and I believe him.

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TomMcD

I know it was unintentional, like I said in my PM I know Knelly wouldn't do that. But that wasn't my point; my point was that Matty would have definitely made up that position were it not for the freak incident.

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MustangRyan

I do agree that Matty definitely would have made the pass for fifth if not for the incident between he and Knelly coming out of turn 2. Does that entitle Matty to the position swap if the accident wasn't intentional?

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TomMcD

In my opinion yes, as it was a dead cert, as you say.

Just got a PM from Knelly though which goes along the lines of 'if I get penalised some other guys sure as hell should'. Kind of agree; it seems every time we're at Daytona you give the same warnings and good advice and people just ignore it, it's a vicious cycle and kind of needs to stop.

It's okay to say, 'no penalty cos' that was accidental' but if there is intent or lack of general attentiveness/racing etiquette I think penalties need to be handed out to deter people.

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MustangRyan

I've watched it again and again and again since I've got home, and I think Mule's compromise works best.

MattyMc1996 was clearly going to overtake Knelly for 5th place right before the end-of-race countdown timer ran out. Matty only failed to complete the pass because Knelly's disabled car went all the way from the apron up to the wall and squeezed Matty's car into the wall, bringing it to a dead stop. Matty will be awarded the 5th finishing position, and Knelly will finish in the 6th position.

As a result of starting the incident that caused Knelly's car to become disabled at the start of lap 100, MULE will be assessed a 1 point penalty. That 1 point will be awarded to Knelly, as Mule feels Knelly wouldn't have been in the position to wreck Matty if it hadn't been for his own mistake to start lap 100 coming out of pit road too high too early.

Thus:
Matty finishes in the 5th spot that he would have if not for being wrecked.
Knelly gets the same points as if he had finished 5th, as a result of Mule being penalized.
Mule loses a point for causing the wreck that led to both drivers above being wrecked.

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What appears to be ommitted here after the victimisation that has come across is that the Proximate Cause(s) to any further incident have been completely unpunished. I get penalised for unloading into someone when others either due to bad driving or unsportsmanlike conduct receive nothing is completely unfair. I advised the Drop that if I get penalised in any way for something that was out of my control, then I would put in formal complaints against both Furinkazen and Litchi. I have not previously done this as was just going to let them lie but now I have no choice.

Lap 77 there was a train of three Gibbs cars (Drop, Litchi and Furi) with me behind, then I think Joe and Chqr. Furi could not at any turn keep in the train and kept sweeping up and down between lanes 1 and 2 (and almost 3). Everybody heard me on a number of occasions warn Furi that if he kept doing this I was going to take his line and place. If Furi cannot keep his line due to his controller or his skill, then after the warnings he should take note and move towards the back of the train. I waited and waited and after he slid up for the second time in as many seconds, crossing over towards lane three, I moved in. Furi should have resepected that and not expected any driver to just keep letting him back in. It is evident that I was holding my line and and Furi had just swept up far to far. Furi has admitted and apologised both in PM and Public that this was completely his fault and therefore not the fault of BOTH drivers as it was put. If I get penalised for damage offloading then Furi should obviously be penalised for this.

This is the proximate cause of everything that happpened afterwards as I then had to push harder than I wanted to after managing the perfect fuel load with the strategy I had (Come back to this in a bit).

Lap 97, I would like everybody who has saved the replay to please watch this back from both mine and Litchi's overhead views, and particularly watch Litchi's line and his 'throttle control'. I will now copy in a series of PM's between myself and Droptop (deleting non-pertinent information).

Knelly
It was Litchi, someone who a) should know better and b) because of that, knew exactly what he was doing.

Watch from about Lap 96. He runs alongside me for half a lap or so, which was fine but I was wanting to catch back up to you and Furi after some lagging separated you from Joe and myself.

I let off to let Litchi passed so I could push him back up to you. On at least two (maybe three) occasions in the next lap or so, he let right off the gas (I consider that brake checking) with absolutely no reason to other than to intentionally slow me down so as not to catch you.

In my opinion he should either work with me, or let off completely and move out the way to make his intentions clear that he is not helping me, rather than 'pretend' he is.

I consider that as complete unsportsmanlike conduct.

Droptop
I don't consider rolling out of the gas the same as brake checking, as brake checking is a way to kill the trailing car's momentum completely (and risks engine damage), and letting off doesn't have the same effect (or risk of engine damage).

He's somewhat new to oval racing, and this may have been a result of his relative inexperience.

I'll ask him what he was doing via PM, and I'll check the replay at lap 76 tonight when I get home. As soon as I know something, I'll let you know.

Droptop
Knelly,

Litchi said he was trying to not bumpdraft back to the front pack, in hopes of helping his team. It was his intent to not push your car. This is why he was racing you side-by-side instead of driving behind you. While side-by-side, you slowed down and dropped in behind him. He said he didn't want you behind him, so he slowed down until you went back around him. He said he didn't want you pushing him around the track.

Does that sound right?

Now, based on what you said above, I don't see how you can be upset at Litchi. It's not like he drove up around you and started hitting the brakes in front of you, which is what I pictured when you first reported "brake-checking". Litchi was driving beside you. That's a pretty clear indicator that he wasn't trying to bumpdraft, either from the front or the back. You chose to slow down and get in behind him. He didn't try to bait you into thinking he was drafting with you and then not do it. You tried to force him to work with you by dropping in behind and pushing him, and he wasn't interested. He didn't use his brakes to impede your progress, he just rolled off the throttle until you went back around him. Would you rather he have swerved across the track and hit the brakes to get out of your way, risking another accident?

Sorry Drop but I disagree completely.

First of all it starts at Lap 97 (my apologies there, I was thinking of the Furi incident) after lagging split us slightly.

Litchi was behind me and pulls up the the high lane at full throttle and remains full throttle. You would expect any car that doesn't want to help the car in front, to stay behind in the draft for starters, but that's fine, no problem with coming alongside me.

We come out of 2 both full throttle, again fine and all I had to go on was that he didn't have enough grunt to get right past me due to his weaving, so I let off for less than half a second to give him the room.

Now, anyone who does not want to work with the other car (especially around Daytona where pushing is expected) stays where they are, right? Litchi instantly takes my line right in front of me so of course I expect pushing to commence.

As soon as he gets in front, he let's off the gas, averaging less than half throttle for over three seconds, before and going into 3. You can not tell me that he did not do that to purposely slow me down. That is not somebody who is trying to stay out of another drivers way. It's evident.

Again after T4, for another 3 seconds he is completely off the gas with me right behind him. We all know that's not how to let a car past you around here. If you want evidence as to how to get out of a car / trains way then watch me at the end of Lap 2. You stay full throttle and move to the high line (or below the yellow on back straight) and no one gets hurt.

So as you put it, he did not use his brakes to impede my progress. He just took my line and instantly took his foot off the gas for large periods of time. That to me is blatant brake-checking around Daytona. Yes, brakes were not applied, but I never said that they were. However, this is just as bad.

I know I am 100% right here. And, I did not make a complaint about it. I did not ask for a change of position or for it to be reviewed. I only asked for it to mentioned as a general pointer in the thread as you did with other topics.


How on earth can this be completely ignored, with just a comment about letting someone past. This to me is a clear breach of sportsmanship.

The spin that resulted which again I appear to be blamed for was indeed a 50/50 incident. Yes I did 'touch' the apron which brought me up a little, but at the same time Litchi (like Furi) was a lot higher than you would expect him to be. As I came up, he came down. This last part is a racing incident. However, that does not deter from what happened previously.

As for me coming out of the pits, the bottom line is that I should never have been there and it was only due to Furi spinning me out that I had to use more fuel than I had expected and anticipated to.

If it were not for the Proximate Cause, then the Lap 100 incident would never have occurred, I would never have been collected by Mule, and in turn I would never have unavoidingly collected Matty.

As a result of my penalty I therefore fully expect Furi and Litchi to be suitably penalised accordingly, and I should therefore be granted with at least fourth spot, if not third behind Drop and Joe. Either that or recind my penalty.

I apologise for calling people out but felt I had no choice. I hope I have got my point across and apologise if I have upset anybody but I believe that standards have to be set across the board and not just to individuals.

Knelly

I believe that standards have to be set across the board and not just to individuals.

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This is exactly what I have been trying to say since the start of this series. Finally someone else agrees other than the original HMS team that quit. Maybe someone will soon get the point Knelly.

I just think penalties need to be handed out more frequently, not simply warnings. That doesn't deter people from doing anything. Lack of driving talent/awareness and racing etiquette shouldn't be encouraged by letting things slide constantly.

That's the only thing I have to add.

Is there really a problem with my driving? I'm very disappointed cause i promise i never tried to block any guy in this race.

My work in the sprint cup is to help my teammates. It's definitely no in my advantage to ruin the race of other guys. And i know the difference between those 2 things perfectly.

I haven't saved the replay so a I can't check what you tell by myself.

Knelly

I let off to let Litchi passed so I could push him back up to you. On at least two (maybe three) occasions in the next lap or so, he let right off the gas (I consider that brake checking) with absolutely no reason to other than to intentionally slow me down so as not to catch you.

In my opinion he should either work with me, or let off completely and move out the way to make his intentions clear that he is not helping me, rather than 'pretend' he is.

I consider that as complete unsportsmanlike conduct.

As soon as he gets in front, he let's off the gas, averaging less than half throttle for over three seconds, before and going into 3. You can not tell me that he did not do that to purposely slow me down. That is not somebody who is trying to stay out of another drivers way. It's evident.

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I'd like to see a vid of that.