2012 Grand Premio Petrobras do Brasil

The Outlaw · Nov 24, 2012

Akira AC
Yet someone else trying to justify Alonso's lack of performance just to his car, while his team-mate do perform at the same pace of his competition.

And from what I gather, your whole argument likely stems from bitterness...that's all.

I'm not at all trying to justify Alonso's lack of performance today in tricky conditions (because I don't know what it might have been down to to begin with...nor does it bother me much), but I just find it amusing that you seem so eager to put Alonso in bad light simply because his team mate has seemingly been on the rise in the past couple of races (although I'd say the US GP was the only race of late where he really seemed to have a legitimate edge in pace)...after 3 years of completely getting trounced in the bigger picture/WDC by Alonso (probably about as bad as any other driver pairing over that period).

Again, do you need to be reminded that Massa has proven to be a very quick driver when things are working for him, and from a competitive stand point has been just as much of a contender in the past as Vettel's team mate (Webber)...so for Alonso to be outperformed by Massa every now and then is something that shouldn't be unexpected, or laughed at. Unless,

1. You have completely no respect for Massa's ability...or
2. You're simply a bitter hater torwards Alonso with double standards & an agenda.

And isn't it ironic that Vettel gets outqualified by Webber this race (by nearly the same margin as Alonso to Massa), yet you decide it would be a good time to harp on Alonso for dropping the ball, and saying he doesn't deserve the title because of such driving...while turning a blind eye to Vettel's performance :odd:

Akira AC
Let us not forget about last race, Massa was pushed down a few positions back just for the sake of his teammate, and even then Massa managed to keep leaders race pace and ranked up more positions and places than his teammate, so no, it is not down to the car, Alonso has been really lame as a championship contender during the last few races, and Massa has demonstrated that is not down to his car, he is simply not up to that.

1 bloody race where Massa seems to outperform Fernando and all of a sudden Fernando is failing miserable in these last few races FFS :lol:

I'd also like to say that the conditions at the last race were rather tricky, particularly with such dramatic evolution of the track conditions throughout the weekend...so set-up & pace wise things could have boiled down to luck as the track progressed into the relative unknown. And for what it's worth, Felipe was running a few different parts on his car (as Red Bull did earlier in the season)...although I wouldn't use this as a geniune excuse for Alonso's lack of pace at Texas.

SimonK
Also remember Alonso gets all the upgrades first and has had a very different car for many races this year. Only now in the last few races has Massa had the same car. I'm raking nothing away from Alonso but it is a fact he's had better machinery for a lot of this season

Funny, because just last race they raced with different specification of cars in fact.

Regardless, Ferrari's development efficiency and execution of late has been pretty pathetic...even moreso if you want to compare them to their main rival atm (Red Bull). With that said, many of the developments they've brought in the last 1/3 of this season have just as often hindered them as helped...making the picture (between Alonso & Massa) a bit unclear IMO. With that sad, I'd rather wait until a new year (where they are starting from what should be a clean slate of paper) to see how they truly compare...

ghskilla · Nov 25, 2012

Akira AC
Yeah, saw the video, I also saw this:

"Can you confirm you understood that message?"

True champions driving, right there.[/Sarcasm]

Alonso's driving in the Renault, and you see the team orders incident. So when you watch a Schumacher video, do you see Austria 2001/2002 as well? :rolleyes:

Seismica · Nov 25, 2012

Akira AC
Yet someone else trying to justify Alonso's lack of performance just to his car, while his team-mate do perform at the same pace of his competition.

Let us not forget about last race, Massa was pushed down a few positions back just for the sake of his teammate, and even then Massa managed to keep leaders race pace and ranked up more positions and places than his teammate, so no, it is not down to the car, Alonso has been really lame as a championship contender during the last few races, and Massa has demonstrated that is not down to his car, he is simply not up to that.

It's kind of difficult to rank up as many positions when a) There are fewer cars infront and b) The cars ahead of you are in faster cars. If Vettel and Hamilton started just infront of Massa, he would never have caught them either. Massa started behind cars which were slower than his, which allowed him to gain more places in the race. It doesn't change the fact that the Ferrari has been pretty much the 3rd fastest car over the season (For the 3rd year on the trot), yet Alonso is still challenging for the title.

If Massa had qualified on the front row in the past couple of races I would agree with you. But he hasn't, the Ferrari is still a dog of a car compared to McRedBullen.

albteman015 · Nov 25, 2012

May I please ask why we have been debating meaningless topics on this forum for a while now?

I am more of a fan of the sport then I am of any specific driver or team. As a fan of F1, I have the potential to see one of the best finishes to a season ever. A good championship to me is one that was hard fought with the best team and driver package prevailing. I think that this happened in 2012 and I am quite happy with how this season turned out.

Red bull have already clinched the world title. Congratulations to them. At the begging of the season, it looked like McLaren had the strongest car. They came back and then dominated the last half of the season and rightfully won. Their drivers also did great to not fall back too far at the first half of the season also.

Ferrari are now in second. Why? Their car had a dreadful start. Obviously it was developed into a better machine but it never reached the level where a team with seemingly unlimited resources should be. That is a disgrace to me. Even if some of you may not like him, Alonso is a great driver. Some of his performances this year have been outstanding with his qualifying runs in Great Britain and Germany shining above the rest in my opinion. But there is only so much one guy can do. Massa recently started doing well but it is too late. And it's not like the guy is slow. He was almost champion and Schumacher even said he was quite fast when they were in the same car. Was he sleeping for 3 years and decided to wake up the last few Grand Prix?

Finally McLaren are third but only a few points behind Ferrari. I think they threw away the championship this year. Some say Alonso was lucky this season. I say red bull are lucky McLaren messed up. Considering how they started and how they also have the top spots on the grid for the last race, McLaren have the pace. My theory is that there is two McLaren teams. A great one and a bunch of idiots. And they picked out of a hat which races they showed up at because their performances differed so much from race to race. Lets not forget reliability problems and terrible pit stops. What is going on at that team?

Red bull won because they messed up the least. Good for them. That is how I want to see a championship won. Work hard, make few mistakes and try to do as best as possible at every Grand Prix and the tittle will come to you. I think that is what we saw this season.

As far as the driver's title is concerned, in my opinion, Sebastian deserves it more then Alonso. I say that as a Ferrari fan btw. I don't care what people think of the drivers and how they behave. Those guys are all at the same level. They have strengths and weaknesses like all other human beings. A driver needs more then his sheer skill. His engineers have to set his car up perfectly for the weekend and the right strategy calls have to be made at the right time to capitalize on other's mistakes for that man to win. In short the man who should win is the one that had the best overall package throughout the year. To me vettel was that guy so he should win.

While Alonso performed well, did the guys who back him up do the same? Did his team put the right car underneath him and did his team-mate take points from other drivers? No. Yes the driver's title is supposed to be about the driver but the world is not perfect and neither is f1. Like I said, the best driver and team package deserves to win and Ferrari and Fernando were not that.

Can we please stop the bickering about which drivers sucks because of this and which is good because of that? It does not matter in the end as long as the racing is good. So in that note, I hope we see a great finale!

gogatrs · Nov 25, 2012

I've just realized that Alonso has turned me into a Ferrari fan when at the same time Lewis has turned me away from McLaren.
Yup, the world is definitely ending next month.

Mike Rotch · Nov 25, 2012

Justin
Wow, you really are grasping at straws, that was a Ferrari call, not an Alonso call.

Be thankful you have the option to ignore his unbalanced nonsense, some of us don't.

How I see today playing out - LH and Button running away from the squabbling pack, Webber maybe being able to hook up what has been a dominant car for a change and joining them, Vettel finishing high enough to clinch the title without being on TV coverage much and Alonso being just behind him, thanks partly to Ferrari gambling on car set up and partly due the car just not being good enough.

TL; DR: Title decider will be a damp squib.

PS: Hopefully everything I said will be in reverse.

Akira AC · Nov 25, 2012

Justin
Wow, you really are grasping at straws, that was a Ferrari call, not an Alonso call.

It was Ferrari's call, however I don't see why Ferrari would do that if they were certain their "#1" driver would do such a win without trusting their driver into doing it himself, lack of confidence on their first driver from Ferrari I suppose, which wouldn't have been shown in Schumacher years.

Besides, that old video just shows off a bit of what Kamui Kobayashi, Sergio Perez Pastor Maldonado and other drivers have shown during the last few seasons/races, so I don't find it that impressive, however the whole "make the team do it for you" is a clear example of how average Alonso, how exaggerated everyone is in making Alonso as an exceptional driver and as a championship contender, while there are better drivers like LH, Kimi, Button, and maybe Webber, who deserve to be in that place.

Seismica
It's kind of difficult to rank up as many positions when a) There are fewer cars infront and b) The cars ahead of you are in faster cars. If Vettel and Hamilton started just infront of Massa, he would never have caught them either. Massa started behind cars which were slower than his, which allowed him to gain more places in the race. It doesn't change the fact that the Ferrari has been pretty much the 3rd fastest car over the season (For the 3rd year on the trot), yet Alonso is still challenging for the title.

If Massa had qualified on the front row in the past couple of races I would agree with you. But he hasn't, the Ferrari is still a dog of a car compared to McRedBullen.

I checked Massa's pace during the whole race, and if you pay attention to his laptimes, overtakes and general performance he was indeed running at about the same pace of the race leaders, clear example of that is the fastest lap time, the fastest time was archived by Vettel, followed by Massa and then followed by Raikonnen, however Massa was getting fastest laptimes every 5-6 laps, he got more traffic and had to sort of heavier traffic to pass, the car was giving the performance required, Massa went from 11th to 4th passing cars in the process(Webber's position doesn't count as he retired). Alonso meanwhile started on 7th, gained some positions and was not getting good laptimes, Massa was dragged back with heavy traffic, and he still was 10 secs behind Alonso by the end of the race, after sorting all the traffic, the poor position at the race start and all the delays he had to deal with, and even so he marked good laptimes, so he would have a good race, if he would have had a good start position with lighter traffic.

Another reason why Alonso is contending for the title is due to the incredible amount of McLaren faults that have been going through the year, looking back through the season the Ferrari has been going onwards for nearly all races, which is pretty significant because every time the gearbox fails on a McLaren, it means more points for Ferrari as their competition gets out, drivers like LH have prove to be rightful contenders to the title for their race pace, yet they are not up there due to reliability issues. So is Alonso contending for the title because McLaren hasn't been capable to keep the car running properly for a full race, so he is not contending for it by his own merits ... just luck.

Mike Rotch
Be thankful you have the option to ignore his unbalanced nonsense, some of us don't.

Thanks for that, way to show us how different opinions(that are backed up and not simply thrown out in the air BTW) should be tolerated, specially coming from the staff.

As far as my expectations go for tomorrow, I'm expecting a LH win followed by Vettel in second place, I would like to see Button finishing in the podium(a win is expect way too much, but it can happen), and I'm also looking forward to see Massa's performance, being at home would surely give him a morale boost that might help him with his race tomorrow, so ... hoping for a good result from him tomorrow.

Mike Rotch · Nov 25, 2012

Akira AC
Thanks for that, way to show us how different opinions(that are backed up and not simply thrown out in the air BTW) should be tolerated, specially coming from the staff.

I have just as much right to express my opinions as this guy.

PS: An opinion "backed up" is not an opinion any longer, it then becomes a fact. You are not sharing any facts with us that prove Alonso is over rated, you are however sharing your opinion.

gorsad · Nov 25, 2012

It was Ferrari's call, however I don't see why Ferrari would do that if they were certain their "#1" driver would do such a win without trusting their driver into doing it himself, lack of confidence on their first driver from Ferrari I suppose, which wouldn't have been shown in Schumacher years.

Maybe because it's better to get a 1-2 and score maximum points as a team rather than chance your drivers crashing into each other. You might also ask why they didn't just let Massa stay in 1st and tell Alonso to maintain the gap, well that would have been completely illogical considering by that point in the season Alonso was much more of a title contender than Massa. It wasn't really a lack of confidence, it was more just a precaution to insure the best result.

I checked Massa's pace during the whole race, and if you pay attention to his laptimes, overtakes and general performance he was indeed running at about the same pace of the race leaders, clear example of that is the fastest lap time, the fastest time was archived by Vettel, followed by Massa and then followed by Raikonnen, however Massa was getting fastest laptimes every 5-6 laps, he got more traffic and had to sort of heavier traffic to pass, the car was giving the performance required, Massa went from 11th to 4th passing cars in the process(Webber's position doesn't count as he retired). Alonso meanwhile started on 7th, gained some positions and was not getting good laptimes, Massa was dragged back with heavy traffic, and he still was 10 secs behind Alonso by the end of the race, after sorting all the traffic, the poor position at the race start and all the delays he had to deal with, and even so he marked good laptimes, so he would have a good race, if he would have had a good start position with lighter traffic.

That's one race. And throughout the whole weekend in America Massa was generally outperforming Alonso. Ever since Massa's revival he has been a lot closer to Alonso than before, around 1-2 tenths away from him in my opinion. But if you were to look at the 10 races before that (and the 2011 and 2010 seasons) Alonso has been wiping the floor with him. But I do agree a bit with that statement, if Massa had started in his original position he would have been able to get 3rd (though I doubt Ferrari would have allowed that).

Another reason why Alonso is contending for the title is due to the incredible amount of McLaren faults that have been going through the year, looking back through the season the Ferrari has been going onwards for nearly all races, which is pretty significant because every time the gearbox fails on a McLaren, it means more points for Ferrari as their competition gets out, drivers like LH have prove to be rightful contenders to the title for their race pace, yet they are not up there due to reliability issues. So is Alonso contending for the title because McLaren hasn't been capable to keep the car running properly for a full race, so he is not contending for it by his own merits ... just luck.

The same could be said for Vettel, if all the Mclaren failures hadn't happened I think Lewis would be leading the championship right now (though I guess we'll never know). And the thing about Alonso is, when someone else falters, he's always there to pick up the points. It takes skill (and a little bit of luck, I'll give you that) to constantly be close to the frontrunners in a inferior car.

And I'm also looking forward to see Massa's performance, being at home would surely give him a morale boost that might help him with his race tomorrow, so ... hoping for a good result from him tomorrow.

I agree with this, I'm quite a fan of Massa.

Peasantslayer · Nov 25, 2012

gorsad
The same could be said for Vettel, if all the Mclaren failures hadn't happened I think Lewis would be leading the championship right now (though I guess we'll never know). And the thing about Alonso is, when someone else falters, he's always there to pick up the points. It takes skill (a a little bit of luck, I'll give you that) to constantly be close to the frontrunners in a inferior car.

If Hamilton had the same qualifying to race points conversion rate as Vettel this season he would be on about 360 points by the end of today.

gorsad · Nov 25, 2012

Peasantslayer
If Hamilton had the same qualifying to race points conversion rate as Vettel this season he would be on about 360 points by the end of today.

True.

I ran some sort of test yesterday, trying to see how many points Hamilton and Vettel would have had if no misfortune was fell on them. The results were actually quite surprising, Hamilton would be on 290 points while Vettel would have 315 points. So Vettel would actually have a 25 point lead. Obviously these results are completely unreliable since it really depends on what you count as misfortune and where you think a person would have finished without it.

ExigeEvan · Nov 25, 2012

I thought it was interesting yesterday to see that Mclaren so far lead the Sky Sports F1 Pit-Stop times. A bit lame considering the quality of them this season.

Peasantslayer · Nov 25, 2012

ExigeEvan
I thought it was interesting yesterday to see that Mclaren so far lead the Sky Sports F1 Pit-Stop times. A bit lame considering the quality of them this season.

They should work out the average pit stop time and then see where they are.

gorsad
True.

I ran some sort of test yesterday, trying to see how many points Hamilton and Vettel would have had if no misfortune was fell on them. The results were actually quite surprising, Hamilton would be on 290 points while Vettel would have 315 points. So Vettel would actually have a 25 point lead. Obviously these results are completely unreliable since it really depends on what you count as misfortune and where you think a person would have finished without it.

It would certainly be close, Hamilton must have lost about 20 in Catalunya, 25 in Abu Dhabi and Singapore, 10 in Korea and about 30 due to pit stop issues. Vettel did gain some points from Hamilton's misfortune, particularly Singapore where Hamilton lost 25 and Vettel gained 7. Every driver has a season like this so hopefully that's Hamilton's out of the way.

That90sGuy · Nov 25, 2012

My feelings before this race. I don't really mind who wins the championship as they both deserve to win in for different reasons. Whatever the outcome I just hope we have a great race! And maybe a 9th different winner?

Centura · Nov 25, 2012

Hamilton said during an interview yesterday that if there was an award for fastest car of the year, McLaren would get it.

I think everyone should be mad at McLaren this year. This should've been a title showdown between three drivers, not two.

Justin
Wow, you really are grasping at straws, that was a Ferrari call, not an Alonso call.

Well... Alonso told his race engineer that he's much faster than Felipe... The rest is history.

Anghammarad · Nov 25, 2012

Anyway. Alonso will win, comfortably.

Massa will take Vettel out into turn one. The stewards will deem it deliberate and punish the entire Ferrari team which will be disqualified from F1 next season and all their results from this year will be void. This will lead to Ferrari leaving F1 and starting a new race series. They will bring Marussia and Caterham with them and not a single person will be interested in watching it.

Dan_ · Nov 25, 2012

Funny thing is though, most of the locals who are going to watch the race are Ferrarists and yet, Alonso is the most hated driver of the grid.

I'm gonna say I won't cheer for the spaniard, but one cannot deny his unmatched talent, experience and competence. Denying that is just fighting against facts, he undeniably is the best driver of the grid. As quick as Seb and Ham, but more experienced, cold-blooded and balanced than both of them.

wajdi1977 · Nov 25, 2012

Anghammarad
Anyway. Alonso will win, comfortably.

Massa will take out Vettel into turn one. The stewards will deem it deliberate and punish the entire Ferrari team which will be discualified from F1 next season and all their results from this year will be void. This will lead to Ferrari leaving F1 and starting a new race series. They will bring Marussia and Caterham with them and not a single person will be interested in watching it.

Peasantslayer · Nov 25, 2012

Not long now, anyone know what the current forecast is? They said 80% chance of rain after qualifying had finished.

Dan_ · Nov 25, 2012

Peasantslayer
Not long now, anyone know what the current forecast is? They said 80% chance of rain after qualifying had finished.

You can get hourly updated forecasts here.

There is 90% of rain possibility as of 09:40 local time.

hornet_burnout · Nov 25, 2012

Peasantslayer
Not long now, anyone know what the current forecast is? They said 80% chance of rain after qualifying had finished.

Button tweeted his suprise to see a sunny day.

Still doesn't mean it won't rain, as per forecasted, but very unpredictable...

Peasantslayer · Nov 25, 2012

Cheers for the information. 👍

hornet_burnout · Nov 25, 2012

More 'in loco' feedback:

@F1Photographer: 100% chance of rain was endlessly forecast... Looking like 100% rubbish right now! #f1brazil

13:15
@ianparkesf1: According to Red Bull, they don't think we'll see any rain today until 5pm. That would be such a shame if that's the case.

@JennieGow: Speaking to the paddock looks like it will now be a dry race, potential of light rain towards the end decreasing. #F1

Dry race I guess...

niky · Nov 25, 2012

Anghammarad
Anyway. Alonso will win, comfortably.

Massa will take out Vettel into turn one. The stewards will deem it deliberate and punish the entire Ferrari team which will be discualified from F1 next season and all their results from this year will be void. This will lead to Ferrari leaving F1 and starting a new race series. They will bring Marussia and Caterham with them and not a single person will be interested in watching it.

MassaGate?

As an aside... dear media, it's been forty frickin' years since Watergate. Can we please come up with another suffix?

Centura · Nov 25, 2012

It's looking more and more likely that it's going to be dry. I hope everyone that said earlier this week; "OMG IT'S GOING TO RAIN ON SUNDAY" have learned their lesson.

It was the same thing in 2011. Saturday, after qualifying, the forecast said that there was a very high chance of rain before/during the race. Guess what? It didn't rain, at all.

Peasantslayer · Nov 25, 2012

Even though it wouldn't benefit the Mclarens I was hoping for heavy rain just to make sure Vettel wouldn't cruise to the finish.

avens · Nov 25, 2012

when does it start? (for example 1 hour and 30 minutes)

hornet_burnout · Nov 25, 2012

@willbuxton: Sam Michael tells me rain predictions keep switching between 40% and 0% for 14:00. The cloudy sky tells me not to listen to predictions.

@JennieGow: For those asking whether it will rain here - this is the sky right now… #F1 http://t.co/PX8necyq

I would bet on dry start at least. Does look like it's getting seriously dark...

...

Yes, starts in about 1h30 (16h GMT)

TyrrellRacing · Nov 25, 2012

avens
when does it start? (for example 1 hour and 30 minutes)

1 hour 27 minutes.

hornet_burnout · Nov 25, 2012

I can feel the tension, here, on twitter, I can only imagine in S. Paulo! (or Rio according to some tabloids :rolleyes:

)

Unpredictable weather, strategies, winners. Loving it. Deserved climatic season finale, so far.

2012 Grand Premio Petrobras do Brasil

The Outlaw

ghskilla

Seismica

albteman015

gogatrs

Mike Rotch

Aluminium Overcast

Akira AC

Mike Rotch

Aluminium Overcast

gorsad

Peasantslayer

gorsad

ExigeEvan

Peasantslayer

That90sGuy

Centura

Anghammarad

Feet of Clay

Dan_

Acoustic Member

wajdi1977

Peasantslayer

Dan_

Acoustic Member

hornet_burnout

Peasantslayer

hornet_burnout

niky

Karma Chameleon

Centura

Peasantslayer

avens

hornet_burnout

TyrrellRacing

Motorbase Performance

hornet_burnout

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