A Quantum Leap

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Oh boy...

I hope you realize that DLC will ruin the gaming industry. Which of the following two situations is most likely in a world with DLC?

Situation 1 : A studio develops a game, releases it at 60€.
Situation 2 : A studio develops a game, releases 80% of it for 60€ and chargers you extra for the rest, which will be split into multiple parts. The DLC should preferably be related to online gaming so that if your friends have it, you need it too (peer pressure always worked well).

Selling DLC works as long as there are enough people willing to pay for it without asking too many questions. The thing is, they will eventually realize that something is not quite right and move on to something else and at that point the industry will be in shambles.

Then, there's the little problem of the fragmentation of the online community. Some will have DLC, others will not and of course they will not be capable of playing together most of the time. I guess the PS4 addresses this problem by trying to create another form of cohesion by allowing you to share things with your 5000 BFF's on Twatter or some **** like that.

The result of all of this is crappy, overpriced products. The source of all of this is artificially created monopolies. If there were other games besides GT5 in the same genre on the PS3, PD would never have gotten away with selling virtual colors (ask yourself how much work goes into "creating" new colors). But even with more competition, I'm fairly certain that there is a lot of collusion going on in the gaming industry and it would only partially solve the problem. It's time some high court has a look at that. For the time being, don't buy DLC.
 
phil_75
But with GT6 "quantum leap" in ripping us... I mean, in DLC, the wait for GT7 will be put off.
They don't need to release a full game to make profit when they can make much more money from DLC and the longer they can milk that the longer we'll be waiting.
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DLC costs a fraction of the game's normal retail price, and by dint of requiring said game, will always sell in less numbers than the game itself. That is, unless you want to try to argue that every GT player always buys DLC.

DLC doesn't (or at least, shouldn't) impact the release of the next title in any series very much; it's providing the gamers with a taste of what would've normally had to wait until the next installment in the old days. Without DLC, we wouldn't have had the V12 Vantage or Aventador in GT5. I know I'd much rather pay a few dollars to have them when they came out, than to wait a few years for GT6. If you don't see it as worth it, that's fine; but neither one of us is wrong.

It's the price of being an early adopter, in a similar way to those who will end up paying a lot more for a PS4 just to have it from day one. Or those of us that bought GT5 day one at full price, when there's now the super-cheap bundled copies available. Games are hardly unique in this approach, either.

MeanElf
Evidence gleaned from other developers/publishers - or are you talking about GT5's experiment with DLC? A quantum leap was promised in this respect, so we shall see if Sony go all 'evil corporation' on us or the game become bigger and better as a result...

I'm just not going to go the assumption route in the meantime.
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Technically, Sony can go in that direction and the game can get bigger and better ;)
 
That's an interesting point, actually. DLC for GT at this very moment isn't actually all that bad because the "assets" will more or less be carried over to the next platform. That's not true of all that many other games (except those that offer legacy packs in their DLC, which I actually don't mind so much, weirdly!), and I think it'd be a different story if we were buying DLC for GT2 only to get GT3 (totally different ecosystem and culture then, though.)

Skip the DLC for GT5? It'll almost certainly be in GT6 in some form (maybe not the TCs, almost certainly annoyingly). Skip it for GT6? You can bet it'll be in GT7. That's kinda nice. Then again, I'm not big on paying a premium for early access. And "monetisation" is just *shudders*...
 
SlipZtrEm
DLC costs a fraction of the game's normal retail price, and by dint of requiring said game, will always sell in less numbers than the game itself. That is, unless you want to try to argue that every GT player always buys DLC.

DLC doesn't (or at least, shouldn't) impact the release of the next title in any series very much; it's providing the gamers with a taste of what would've normally had to wait until the next installment in the old days. Without DLC, we wouldn't have had the V12 Vantage or Aventador in GT5. I know I'd much rather pay a few dollars to have them when they came out, than to wait a few years for GT6. If you don't see it as worth it, that's fine; but neither one of us is wrong.

It's the price of being an early adopter, in a similar way to those who will end up paying a lot more for a PS4 just to have it from day one. Or those of us that bought GT5 day one at full price, when there's now the super-cheap bundled copies available. Games are hardly unique in this approach, either.


)
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Unless of course PD follow the awesome trend of day one DLC :yuck: *Cough CodeMasters*cough
 
sems4arsenal
Unless of course PD follow the awesome trend of day one DLC :yuck: *Cough CodeMasters*cough
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Code master's promised to carry all of grids ones assets over to grid two and look what happened. They released one DlC pack and the second two years latter * well after every one had forgotten about the game* claiming the rest was planed for grid two. None of the dlc cars in grid one made it over to grid two.. and only like ten cars from the first game made it over.👎 Pd has never and will hopefully never swoop down to that level. Im hoping DLC works like it does in LBP . GT5's dlc wont come on the vanilla GT6 disk. But will be cross compatible with both games *GT6 DLC wont work on GT5 tho!*
 
SlipZtrEm
DLC costs a fraction of the game's normal retail price...
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Why could that be? Is it because the DLC contains a fraction of the normal game's content?

GT6: $60 / 1200 cars = $0.05 per car PLUS all the track and gameplay content that comes with it.

GT5 DLC1: $8 / 15 cars = $0.53 per car, plus nothing.

Compared to the retail release, DLC is monstrously overpriced. The cost is an order of magnitude higher than the on disc content. Manufacturing and distribution costs are as small as possible thanks to digital distribution. And with the tendency to roll DLC into the next game, presumably the production costs for stuff like GT6 DLC are covered by the GT7 budget.

DLC in a game like this is as near as dammit pure profit.
 
But that calculation is flawed as 800 or so cars were standards carried over from PS2 tech and don't represent anything like the value of a premium modeled car.
Besides DLC will never be priced on that kind of formula.
 
Nato_777
Besides DLC will never be priced on that kind of formula.
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Why not?

Because some people will pay, regardless of the cost. Whether it's because they have more money than they know what to do with, or they're rabid GT fans or whatever. See the example of the paint pack.

It's not about consistency of pricing, it's about how much money they can squeeze out of people before they start screaming about it. Basically, it's the used-car salesman ripoff mentality. They're not thinking about pricing it according to how much value it provides to the consumer, they're pricing it on what's the most they can charge before people refuse to buy it.

If Sony/PD want to operate like that, best of luck to them. But I doubt it's gaining them any loyalty. At best people will be indifferent, at worst actively adversarial.
 
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Tornado
That would be the worst way they could do it. Just make all of GT5's DLC regular content in GT6.
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As a consumer of that GT5 all the DLC I'd be slightly disappointed however, I'm not sure if I'm in a big rush to buy the exact same packages again. Lets hope if PD plans to reintroduce previously used DLC that they at least update them with new things to make the second time around purchase not seem so redundant.
 
4everdelayed
Oh boy...

I hope you realize that DLC will ruin the gaming industry. Which of the following two situations is most likely in a world with DLC?

Situation 1 : A studio develops a game, releases it at 60€.
Situation 2 : A studio develops a game, releases 80% of it for 60€ and chargers you extra for the rest, which will be split into multiple parts. The DLC should preferably be related to online gaming so that if your friends have it, you need it too (peer pressure always worked well).
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The studios and the publishers are not excepted from the laws of commerce. As the costs for developing a high quality console game increases as technology progress, if they kept selling their games at 60€ without getting more revenues from other sources they'd go out of business. No publisher is so passionate about gaming that they're prepared to release their games at a loss. And even if they were they could only sustain that for a limited period of time before the landlord comes knocking on their door asking why they aren't paying the rent.

So situation 1 as described above is not even an option. Either it's situation 2, or a situation 3 where they'll have you subscribe to be able to play the game, or a combination of situation 2 and 3.

Or a situation 4 where everyone simply walks away from the console market to produce games for the iPad instead.
 
eran0004
The studios and the publishers are not excepted from the laws of commerce. As the costs for developing a high quality console game increases as technology progress, if they kept selling their games at 60€ without getting more revenues from other sources they'd go out of business. No publisher is so passionate about gaming that they're prepared to release their games at a loss. And even if they were they could only sustain that for a limited period of time before the landlord comes knocking on their door asking why they aren't paying the rent.

So situation 1 as described above is not even an option. Either it's situation 2, or a situation 3 where they'll have you subscribe to be able to play the game, or a combination of situation 2 and 3.

Or a situation 4 where everyone simply walks away from the console market to produce games for the iPad instead.
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Do you think that possibly consoles are more widespread and popular than they might have been ten or fifteen years ago? That people are more open to buying games than they might have been then? That the people that do buy games now have a larger disposable income?

If your game is selling millions of copies, you're hardly struggling for the rent. I seriously doubt that games like GT and CoD are struggling to make ends meet. It's perfectly possible to make and sell a good game for $60 without making a loss.
 
Eran does have a point though. True, the big developers aren't struggling, but rent, wages and all manner of running costs such as site visits have been consistently rising whilst the game retail price has remained pretty constant. DLC with a slight profit margin is conceivably an option to counter that.
 
MeanElf
Eran does have a point though. True, the big developers aren't struggling, but rent, wages and all manner of running costs such as site visits have been consistently rising whilst the game retail price has remained pretty constant. DLC with a slight profit margin is conceivably an option to counter that.
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I do sort of agree, but rising costs + static prices + increased sales would also cover the necessities. DLC may be necessary for some companies who aren't seeing increased sales, but I don't think it's true that we can say that all companies will need DLC in order to maintain the levels of profitability that they're accustomed to.
 
If PD and Kaz truly were the all loving, caring studio and leader some here like to claim they are they could certainly afford to give away most of their DLC. Staff would still get paid and PD would still turn a healthy profit overall. They won't though because despite what some claim they are just like any other business that wants to maximise profits.
 
Samus
They won't though because despite what some claim they are just like any other business that wants to maximise profits.
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All companies do. Tbh anyone that disagrees has never, ever worked on his life.

It's true production costs of videogames are way higher than they used to be, while at the same time PD sells less games a year and at a lower price (GT5:P and the GT5 re-releases still count as 1 unit sold and inflation has to be considered as well).
Even though the detailed info is not public, all that means PD makes considerably less money than they used to.


If PD and Kaz truly were the all loving, caring studio and leader some here like to claim they are they could certainly afford to give away most of their DLC. Staff would still get paid and PD would still turn a healthy profit overall.
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Do you have the actual numbers to make such a claim or are you making it up?

Since their detailed financial info is not public we don't even know if they make profit at all or if it's the opposite. It entirely comes down to it, so either you have the info (work for PD or sony on a specific area and on a big position) or it's someone on the internet talking like he has inside info when he doesn't or just making claims out of thin air.
 
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phil_75
I've a great idea!

Concentrate on making the game fantastic in the first place and get more money from more sales!
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Gran Turismo 10,850,000
Gran Turismo 2 9,370,000
Gran Turismo 3 A-spec 14,890,000
Gran Turismo Concept Series 1,560,000
Gran Turismo 4 “Prologue” 1,400,000
Gran Turismo 4 11,730,000
Gran Turismo 5 “Prologue” 5,350,000
Gran Turismo PSP 4,220,000
Gran Turismo 5 10,660,000
Total 70,020,000

:)
 
It is going to end up like CoD or Battlefield. You pay £40 for the game, which is a lot of money to some of us, then to get more content which arguably should have been in the game to start with you have to pay the same amount of money again.

Yes people are going to say " you're not forced to buy the DLC" but when you're a fan of the game you're always wanting more.
 
avens
Do you have the actual numbers to make such a claim or are you making it up?

Since their detailed financial info is not public we don't even know if they make profit at all or if it's the opposite. It entirely comes down to it, so either you have the info (work for PD or sony on a specific area and on a big position) or it's someone on the internet talking like he has inside info when he doesn't or just making claims out of thin air.
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Do I need all the numbers? Sony stated they were already in profit from sales of GT5:P and even if Sony/PD only made a modest average of $20 per copy of GT5 that's $200 million. GT5 budget was $60 - $80 million.

It's pretty obvious they can afford to take a small hit and still make money. I'm not saying they should, but they certainly could.
 
I read the article that this is referring to. I also noticed the vast growth between 2,3,4,and five. I know that the article touched on down loadable content but, if that's all you took away from it then you possibly could have missed the little things.

We'll never really know what GT5 was suppose to have been because times, tech, cars, and fans interests all change constantly. GT5 isn't perfect blocky shadows, inconsistent DLC, and bad sound but, It's the most popular driving simulator in the world for a home entertainment system. The numbers don't lie 70 million copies isn't bad.
 
tpark103
I also noticed the vast growth between 2,3,4,and five.
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Vast growth? In sales, you mean? Sales have been dropping since they peaked in GT3. Unless GT5 sells another million copies between now and when the PS3 gets discontinued (not likely with GT6 about to come out) that trend isn't turning around any time soon. Notice that the second release on each console has traditionally sold worse than the first.

GT sells a ton of copies, far more than almost any other game. It's still going downhill.
 
maxpontiac
Gran Turismo 5 10,660,000
:)
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There is roughly 80 million PS3s;-)

Good point about GT5s shortcomings, blocky shadows, framerate problems, rubbish sound, dreadful A spec, loading times, poor quality standard cars etc..

Did they fix them or did they think "sod em, concentrate on DLC"?

Have they even got rid of standards 3 years later for GT6 or are they more interested in" a quantum leap in DLC"?

PD have been taken over by "money men" and Kaz couldn't care one bit, Infact he will be supporting it as it means he will get more money so he can go play racing cars with Lucas as thats where his passion is now.

Oh Btw, 34.26million copies of Mario Kart Wii sold;-)
 
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Samus
Do I need all the numbers? Sony stated they were already in profit from sales of GT5:P and even if Sony/PD only made a modest average of $20 per copy of GT5 that's $200 million. GT5 budget was $60 - $80 million.
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Those numbers alone doesn't give the complete picture. The average cost for developing a PS2 title was $5-10 million. Already there GT5 was roughly ten times as expensive to develop as the average PS2 game.

Add to that the fact that sales has dropped since the days of the PS2 and you'll end up with higher development costs combined with fewer copies sold. Not a good formula for business success.

It would still be alright I suppose if there were no other costs than the actual development of the game, but the money doesn't stay with PD. It contributes to support Sony Computer Entertainment and the entire Sony corporation. The development of the PS3 was costly and they even had to sell the console at a loss for the first two years after its release, because the components were so expensive to produce. Some estimates that they lost $300 for every unit sold. If each copy of GT5 brought back $20 of that it doesn't even compensate for 10% of the loss, they had to sell 15 games at that profit rate to each console before breaking even.

And as if that wouldn't be enough, Sony is facing huge financial difficulties. In 2012 they reported a loss of $6 billion and that they would need to reduce their work force by 10 000 people.

In the light of that, decreased profits (or increased losses) from the gaming branch is a big problem for Sony and they can't afford to watch as the profit continues to drop without having to cut back on something.
 
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phil_75
There is roughly 80 million PS3s;-)

Good point about GT5s shortcomings, blocky shadows, framerate problems, rubbish sound, dreadful A spec, loading times, poor quality standard cars etc..

Did they fix them or did they think "sod em, concentrate on DLC"?

Have they even got rid of standards 3 years later for GT6 or are they more interested in" a quantum leap in DLC"?

PD have been taken over by "money men" and Kaz couldn't care one bit, Infact he will be supporting it as it means he will get more money so he can go play racing cars with Lucas as thats where his passion is now.

Oh Btw, 34.26million copies of Mario Kart Wii sold;-)
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My, my you are a pessimistic one, aren't you?

I used the Tommy Kiara ZZII in one of the seasonals today. I tell you, there has been work done on that standard since the game came out. In earlier photos I'd taken, it had blocky wheel arches - not any more though. So work has been done in the background and a number of other things have received attention throughout.

It's also unfair to imply that the standard situation has been ignored, when PD stated they have worked to minimise the visual differences and after-market parts options for GT6.

The second bolded part - you're just making stuff up now as you have no proof that PD are being run by 'the money men' or that Kazunori san has no passion for the games. Why are you even bothering with the game if you feel like that?
 
Imari
GT sells a ton of copies, far more than almost any other game. It's still going downhill.
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I would hardly call a "plateau" of roughly 10 million games "downhill." ;)

Now selling roughly 14 million copies, GT3 is quite the record breaker in racing game sales, but SONY has been milking that game for all its worth. I saw new copies for sale nine years after it was released. But having said that, the same is true of GT4, and thus it has sold around 11 million copies. So people can argue that GT3 was more "popular," but within the same time frame, GT4's sales were explosive and arguably better. And it's hardly fair when the race for both isn't even technically over.

If that wasn't enough, GT5 broke sales records yet again, selling 7 million copies within the first several months of release. Even with all the bad press, it sold another million copies since December.

I would LOVE to be so downhill! :D

Furthermore, I ditto eran and Meanie above.
 
Tenacious D
I would hardly call a "plateau" of roughly 10 million games "downhill." ;)
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It's downhill from 14 and 11 million. I'm aware that 10 million is still a hell of a lot to sell, hence why I put that last paragraph in.

But say GT6 goes down another million, like GT3->GT4. So GT6 sells 9 million. That's still pretty good.

Then assume GT7 comes out on PS4. Duplicate the jump from GT3->GT5. Minus 4 million. GT7 sells 5 million. That's not too good at all. It's still really good for most games, but for something with the pedigree of GT it's basically a giant flop.

Not saying that this is what's going to happen. Those are essentially made up numbers. It could as easily turn around and go the other way with one really good version. But at the moment it's going downhill, and without an effort to change anything I don't see any reason why that wouldn't continue.

And it's hardly fair when the race for both (GT3 and GT4) isn't even technically over.
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They're not making PS2s any more. When exactly would you call it over?

I'd say it's more or less over when the next version comes out. I'd be very surprised if GT5 sold even as much as another 500,000 copies after GT6/PS4 releases.
 
MeanElf
The second bolded part - you're just making stuff up now as you have no proof that PD are being run by 'the money men' or that Kazunori san has no passion for the games. Why are you even bothering with the game if you feel like that?
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Because i love the franchise and don't want to see it going to crap because of people happy just to put up with a mess of a game.

I want to see it back to its former glory as unquestionably the best racer/driving game/sim/collection on any console or even any platform.
 

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