Automatic vs. Manual: The Ultimate Showdown Thread

///M-Spec · Oct 21, 2008

Continued discussion from Nissan GT-R thread.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=99950

Use this thread to discuss the pros and cons of the manual transmission versus traditional torque converter/planetary gearset automatics, semi-automatic sequential gearboxs (BMW SMG family, Ferrari F1, Audi R-tronic) and dual-clutch gearboxes (VAG DSG, Nissan DCT).

M

eiriksmil · Oct 21, 2008

On Sunday I used auto box for the first time in my life. Almost pissed my pants :rolleyes:

Probably great for driving that Dodge minivan it was connected to, delivering children and such, but the excitement over not having a clutch died when I was behind the wheel of my own car later that day

Obviously never used a paddle shifter either, but I'd assume it's not as fun as manual.

Joey D · Oct 21, 2008

I'll post what I did in the other thread. I have no problem with people who prefer driving manuals, if that is what they like then who am I to say that they are wrong? What I can not stand though is the people who come in an right away dismiss automatic gearboxes for whatever reason.

I have an auto, although apparently it's not a stand auto since it has six gears and the ability to select which gear I want either through the gear selector or paddles behind the steering wheel. I've never felt like I had a lack of involvement or control while driving my car. I can not say that I would have any more or less fun with my car if it was a manual since I've driven several Coopers with a manual transmission and apart from being a royal pain in the backside in stop and go traffic the driving experience was about the same. I can't make judgment for every car in the world, only cars I've personally driven so that limits me some.

I think people who dismiss autos are incredibly biased and at times rather foolish in how they word their responses. I don't dismiss manuals as crap, I just do not prefer them in most situations. Sure if I had a track only car it would be a manual for sure, but as a daily driver I personally see little need for having a car that I have to shift gears in.

Gil · Oct 21, 2008

Let me be the first to say that if we couldn't get it said in 2,992 posts in the other thread, what's gonna be different here? :lol:

I'm an old-fashioned guy, and in "old fashioned" cars, like Fiat 2000 Convertibles, Old Vettes and Mustangs, and other "vintage" automobiles, there should be a lever sticking up thru the console between the seats, and 3 pedals on the floor.

However, I for one, am glad that someone has figured out how to make a "race-worthy" automatic.

There are enough guys out there that can DRIVE pretty well.
There are a few of them that just can't master the "three pedal tango."
There are a few who don't want to or NEED to. Especially with one car for the daily grind and an occasional day at the track or auto cross.
A good auto kind of "levels the playing field".

Should the new cars like the GT-R and the Lancer Ralliart be available with a plain manual transmission? Probably, but with the automatic you have a car that is a whole lot harder to break while being easier to drive.

Also take into account that, at least in the US, there may be plenty of "enthusiasts" but in reality more than 90% of cars that leave the showrooms, do so with automatics.

Not many people younger than me know about non-syncromesh trannies. Nor do they know how to double-clutch. And very few know about rev-matching or heel-and-toe downshifting.

With that in mind, do we need more manuals, or do we need to show the machinery some mercy and put in smarter, more capable automatics?

Joey D · Oct 21, 2008

Gil
With that in mind, do we need more manuals, or do we need to show the machinery some mercy and put in smarter, more capable automatics?

There will always be people who prefer manuals, but as you've said, most cars in America leave the show room with an auto trans. It would make sense that companies start developing better auto gearboxes, especially to improve fuel economy with the looming CAFE standards. An eight speed gearbox would help out by keeping the revs lower while just cruising.

Gil · Oct 21, 2008

Joey D
There will always be people who prefer manuals, but as you've said, most cars in America leave the show room with an auto trans. It would make sense that companies start developing better auto gearboxes, especially to improve fuel economy with the looming CAFE standards. An eight speed gearbox would help out by keeping the revs lower while just cruising.

If you look at the EPA ratings on a lot of cars, the Manual equipped cars are actually getting WORSE fuel economy.
The Mazda6 comes to mind, as I'm rather familiar with it. It is rated for 30MPG highway with the auto and 29 MPG highway for the manual.

So far only Mercedes and Nissan have CVT with an abnormally high number of "gears".
You are right. A lot more manufacturers need to get on the bandwagon here, with 7 and 8 speed transmissions that "adapt" to the driver for better performance and/or economy.

kingcars · Oct 21, 2008

Joey D
I think people who dismiss autos are incredibly biased and at times rather foolish in how they word their responses. I don't dismiss manuals as crap, I just do not prefer them in most situations. Sure if I had a track only car it would be a manual for sure, but as a daily driver I personally see little need for having a car that I have to shift gears in.

I hope you haven't misunderstood my original point, which is just that I personally prefer a manual car for given reasons. As I said in the other thread, manuals are lighter, eat up less horsepower, provide crisp engine response, and most importantly allow 100% freedom in how I shift. If I want to launch the car hard, chirp 2nd gear, then just smoothly cruise through 3rd and 4th, I can (which is what I normally do so I'm not breaking any speed limits 👍 ) . I dont have to switch between "modes" or anything. Also, with my old automatic, things like trying to get it out of overdrive was always a pain. I'd be sitting there on the highway cruisin, when either someone wanted to race or I'd need to pass someone, so I'd either stomp the gas or move the lever to D to get it into 3rd gear. It would take FOREVER, and was so annoying. No problems like that with the manual.

There was just no personality with the automatic. Just stick it in OD and drive around. I much prefer rowing my own gears.

slowman · Oct 21, 2008

I prefer manuals under all circumstances, but I try not to be snobbish about it. I understand that other people may like autos for whatever their reasons, and I would even concede that stop and go traffic is much easier with an auto. Even in that situation, I personally would prefer the manual.

I've never liked that disconnected feel that I get with an automatic, and the feeling of rowing your own gears is very rewarding.

I don't think that this topic will ever be completely hashed out, simply because it is entirely subjective and varies wildly from person to person.

eiriksmil · Oct 21, 2008

Gil
Not many people younger than me know about non-syncromesh trannies. Nor do they know how to double-clutch. And very few know about rev-matching or heel-and-toe downshifting.

Seriously, what the ****? You don't need to double clutch on a car with syncromesh, neither do you need to rev match or heel and toe for daily ise. Yeah, it's fun if you get it right, and that's part of what's fun with a manual, but you make it sound like it's a crisis for younger drivers than yourself, because they haven't read Wikipedia..

But as I said, getting it right is what's fun with a manual.. And it's like a diesel, the times you want to have fun you're stuck with something ****ty. How does going sideways and automatics go together? You put it in neutral, floor it and put it in drive? Doesn't sound as good as a clutch..

Swear filter sucks. And yes, I'm ignorant, it's okay, I'm from Europe where autos are restricted to large-engined cars and American ones.. It suits a cruiser though.

YSSMAN · Oct 21, 2008

Now I've driven a fair number of cars of different types, powerplants and transmissions and I'll make my position clear:

Nothing replaces a true manual transmission

That being said, the leaps and bounds by which much of the technology behind automatics and otherwise "sequential" manuals have leapt forward in the past 10 or so years has genuinely been enough to give a true manual a run for its money. The problem is that while you may have more "control" over your slushbox, the problem more or less is that those "decisions" that you're making are ran through a computer and given the thumbs-up or thumbs-down approach when selecting gears. It isn't true with every car, but the Germans and Japanese have done a good job of making sure you don't destroy things by making even the most-basic of choices.

One of my more-positive experiences with a "new style" automatic that had me pleased was with the Chevrolet Malibu. Using the six-speed automatic with manual override either on the console or with paddles behind the wheel, you get a fair bit of control over what you want and of course the Chevy does what its supposed to do... Hold that gear until you shift.

The problem is, it still is not the real thing. The use of the third pedal combined with the movement of your right (or in some cases, left) arm is a feeling that cannot be replaced. Moving a lever forward or back does not constitute a "shift" by any means, and although it may give you the "feeling" that you are doing something with your car, it is by no means anything close to the real thing.

But, let me make my second position clear:

There is a time and place for a manual transmission

Truth be told, while I love my manual gearboxes, I would not want to have to deal with it in anything larger than your average Commodore/G8 or 5-series. I've driven pickup trucks with sticks, and it just feels downright awkward, and I simply could not imagine getting into a Big-Rig and doing the same. Some vehicles are better-suited to the game in which is dominated by the slushbox crowd; Cars made to go from point A to point B with no sense of urgency, no need for "soul," only the purpose of making a trip in an otherwise orderly and comfortable fashion.

Would it be fun to have a stick in something like a Camry? I suppose, but it isn't the kind of thing you'd need it for. Would it be fun to have a slushbox in a 350Z? Definitely not.

Sage · Oct 21, 2008

Dual-clutch trannies are now more efficient and faster than manuals. However, manuals are still more fun for a lot of people, myself included.

End of dicussion. Really, that’s all there is to say – in the near future, all trannies will be better in every objective measurement than manuals, but a small subset of people will still prefer manuals because of the enjoyment factor of being an integral part of the machine’s brain.

Danoff · Oct 21, 2008

Since this is the ultimate showdown thread, and there's bound to be some debating, I figure I should join in. Background on me:

Danoff's Resume

1st car: 4 speed manual
2nd car: 4 speed manual
3rd car: 5 speed auto
4th car: 5 speed auto
5th car: 5 speed auto
6th car: 6 speed manual

None of the autos had the ability to select gears, but I have driven and played with several cars that had that capability. When driving manual:

- I rev match
- I will do heel-toe when necessary but don't do it regularly
- Do not double-clutch
- Do not attempt to shift without use of the clutch
- Have "popped" the clutch when necessary
- Have driven a car with completely destroyed trans linkage

So... that's me. Here's my take on auto vs. manual.

Auto vs. Manual

It depends.

For the following I prefer a manual:
- Icy conditions
- Old finicky cars
- Broken cars (brakes, tranny, engine idle, starter, etc.)
- Freeway passing
- Large altitude variations (like driving from CA to CO)
- Fuel Economy
- Drifting (not that I know)
- Steep downhill grades
- GT4

For the following I prefer having an auto:
- Injured left foot
- Eating in the car
- Attempting to carry something precarious in the car
- Valet
- Slightly inebriated driving (I would never...)
- Having the wife drive because I'm too tired/injured
- Traffic
- Road trips (nothing like slowing down 40 miles per hour and realizing you should still be in 6th gear... oops)
- Drive through lanes

For the following, I prefer a clutchless manual (paddles, etc.):
- Spirited driving/racing

It's that last category, the one that applies to about 0.1% of my time in the car that everyone here will probably focus on. After having spent some time on the back roads in my 6 speed I can't tell whether I prefer an auto or manual (if required to choose between the two) for spirited driving. Manual is certainly more fun. But I think I'm faster in an auto. Yes, manual is slightly faster when I'm doing it right. But I'll botch a shift after about 20 minutes of hardcore driving, and I don't think the time I lose in the process is made up for by faster shifts or more time spent in the higher rpm range.

What's worse is that when it's up to me I tend to shift early. I bury the throttle, but because I'm worried about hurting my car I rarely take it to redline. I'll do it periodically in a sprint, but it pains me to do it repeatedly for a 30 minute session on backroads. Keeping my car at 6-8k rpm for a long time is just too painful for me when I'm selecting when to shift, but I know if I had an auto I would just bury the throttle and let it rev up.

All too often I find I'm in the wrong gear. I'll select 3rd for the upcoming turn when 2nd would have been more appropriate. Or I'll select 2nd when 3rd would have been more appropriate. The result? I don't enjoy myself as much.

I think it's a push. I'd rather be able to shift in a heartbeat without having to work at it (ie: paddle shifter). Overall, I guess the manumatic is for me. Best of all worlds I suppose. But as you can see above, I didn't list having driven one of those in my resume, so I can't be sure.

Jim Prower · Oct 21, 2008

I have a sub-standard auto in the Nova. 3-speed. While it's not reccommended, it can be downshifted if one puts it into "2" and "1," and it can be made smoother by blipping the throttle (yes, heel-and-toe!)...but it will always upshift at redline if left in Drive and stomped upon. It does hold gears, though, but not a smart idea without a Rev Limiter. or rev counter, for that matter.

Shifts are typically slushy-quick, too, and the third gear has a lockup clutch in the torque converter that (if driven normally, which is slow by modern standards, if my onramp merging throttle stomps say anything) engages at 30MPH. Exactly. This would be thought to be fine, but, actually, it's quite irritating behavior.

I do wish I knew what a manual tranny would run me, and what it'd take to convert it...

///M-Spec · Oct 21, 2008

From the GT-R thread....

Wolfe
I would personally add two more elements to that list, ///M-Spec, things that I mentioned before: crisp throttle response and engine braking, though both are kinda related and could probably be condensed into "crisp throttle response."

Yeah, you can add those. I didn't include those qualities because throttle response can be good or bad independent of transmission type and any auto that locks-up certain gears can provide engine braking. But yes, those are definately desirable qualities.

You would be surprised how good a top-drawer modern automatic is these days, though.

For example, the Tiptronic box in my wife's Audi has pretty decent throttle response in S or manual mode and will engine brake in any gear. We have a lot of steep hills where we live and we regularly use manual mode as a poor man's 'descent control'.

The ZF 6HP26 that BMW uses in the 5 and 7 series has 6 gears, locks up in all forward gears once the car is moving, disengages the torque converter when the car isn't and will hold a gear until you hit the rev limiter in manual mode. It really makes a good case for sportings autos.

Joey D
I have to disagree with most of the points being made, I can control my car just fine with an auto.

Do you disagree with any of mine? If so, which ones?

kingcars
I agree with your whole post, M. However, I'm not sure on this, so somebody with more knowledge can chime in, but don't autos still suck up a higher percentage of horsepower than manuals? Also, in most cases, manuals are lighter than automatics. I know when I did the 5 speed swap in my Tbird, the manual is a good 50-75lbs lighter than the old automatic (and as a result, the front of my car sits a tad higher).

Yes, autos are usually heavier than manuals.

Yes, autos are traditionally more 'lossy' than manuals. But that is slowly changing as automatics have come a long way in the last 20 years or so. Some of the better automatics, like the ZF 6HP26 I mentioned are apparently much more efficient these days; the shift programs have gotten smarter, they have more gears than they used to and most of them lock up once the car is moving, etc. The 6HP26 is even smaller and lighter than the 5-speed 5HP30 it replaced.

As I stressed in my post in the GT-R thread, not all autos are the same and it would be a mistake to assume they are. There are some very good autos on the market these days.

EDIT: Since Danoff is showing off his resume, I'll do the same.

1st car (hand me down): 3 speed auto --GM Turbo-Hydramatic 125, baby!!
2nd car (hand me down): 4 speed auto --Dunno what it was or who made it, probably a GM HydraMatic of some sort
3rd car (first car I bought for myself): Getrag 260 5-speed manual
4th car: ZF Type C 5-speed manual
5th car: ZF Type C 5-speed manual
6th car: Getrag 217 6-speed manual
7th car: Getrag 226 6-speed manual

M

Matt R · Oct 21, 2008

I don't really know. I haven't had much experiance behind the wheel of a manual. I posted my own thread a month or two ago about helping me find a car. We'll, I'm still looking. I went ahead and bought my mom a 2000 VW Jetta five speed. I've been learning how to drive stick with that car. So far I'm very pleased with it. Shifting my own gears is such fun. It doesn't seem like it takes any effort at all to get to a fast speed. In any auto I've driven it just doesn't feel as quick.

Manual vs Auto...I don't have a good opinion yet. I'll let you guys know once I get more experience behind the wheel of a manual.

Wolfe · Oct 21, 2008

I disagree with you, YSSMAN. There's no such thing as a soulless manual transmission car. Shifting and clutching makes even the simplest of commutes a pleasure. I've never groaned at the thought of having to drive my BMW; I don't even think about shifting, and I've never wished my right hand and left foot were free to rest idly.

Danoff · Oct 21, 2008

Wolfe
I disagree with you, YSSMAN. There's no such thing as a soulless manual transmission car. Shifting and clutching makes even the simplest of commutes a pleasure. I've never groaned at the thought of having to drive my BMW; I don't even think about shifting, and I've never wished my right hand and left foot were free to rest idly.

Have you ever groaned at the sight of traffic - knowing that it would mean endless first gear repetition? Have you ever groaned at the thought of trying to keep that overflowing soda that doesn't fit in any of your cupholders from spilling all over your leather seats while you transport it to your destination? When I sprained my ankle a little while back one of my first thoughts was whether I'd be able to drive to work.

///M-Spec · Oct 21, 2008

^^^

Even the most diehard manual fan should try getting stuck in hours of traffic while rowing a stick. Trust me, it gets old. REAL OLD. There's a reason why my car almost never goes into the city (NYC) and we take the wife's instead.

M

Wolfe · Oct 21, 2008

Danoff
Have you ever groaned at the sight of traffic - knowing that it would mean endless first gear repetition?

No, but I have groaned at the sight of traffic, knowing that I would have to sit and wait while comfortably idling in gear and maintaining the right distance between myself and the car ahead so that I almost never have to use the clutch.

Residential neighborhoods with stop signs at every corner are more clutch-leg strenuous than stop-and-go traffic.

Danoff
Have you ever groaned at the thought of trying to keep that overflowing soda that doesn't fit in any of your cupholders from spilling all over your leather seats while you transport it to your destination?

Trick question; I have no cupholders. I always hold my drink myself, shifting and steering and all. Not a problem.

Oh, and Cloth > Leather.

Danoff
When I sprained my ankle a little while back one of my first thoughts was whether I'd be able to drive to work.

Really, I'd rather take the bus when I'm injured than own a car with only two pedals.

eiriksmil · Oct 21, 2008

Wolfe
Trick question; I have no cupholders. I always hold my drink myself, shifting and steering and all. Not a problem.

My arm is hanging out of the window while I'm gearing with the other.. I'm awesome. Irony intended.

Danoff · Oct 21, 2008

Wolfe
No, but I have groaned at the sight of traffic, knowing that I would have to sit and wait while comfortably idling in gear and maintaining the right distance between myself and the car ahead so that I almost never have to use the clutch.

Hehe.... try that in LA.

Wolfe
Really, I'd rather take the bus when I'm injured than own a car with only two pedals.

...and I'd rather have my wife drive me to work than take the bus. But I think you understand my point - that accidents happen, and making arrangements because your car requires 4 limbs to operate when there are cars that require only 2 limbs to operate is certainly a "con".

kingcars · Oct 21, 2008

Danoff
Have you ever groaned at the sight of traffic - knowing that it would mean endless first gear repetition? Have you ever groaned at the thought of trying to keep that overflowing soda that doesn't fit in any of your cupholders from spilling all over your leather seats while you transport it to your destination? When I sprained my ankle a little while back one of my first thoughts was whether I'd be able to drive to work.

1) Neutral is your friend.
2) I never ever have food or drink in my car while driving, and it's EXTREMELY rare in any case.
3) Injuries can happen to either foot/ankle/leg/etc (or both in the worst case), so even automatic drivers would be screwed.

As for my resume of cars I have driven a good amount:

86 Celebrity Wagon (automatic)
04 Honda Accord (automatic)
66 Chevrolet Chevelle (Muncie M20 4 speed)
88 Ford Thunderbird (AOD automatic at first, Tremec T5 5 speed now)
85 Trans Am (automatic)

Wolfe
...

Trick question; I have no cupholders.

...

Oh, and Cloth > Leather.

Really, I'd rather take the bus when I'm injured than own a car with only two pedals.

Same here on all accounts

.

Wolfe · Oct 21, 2008

Danoff
Hehe.... try that in LA.

I'll let you know when I do. I'll take hours of clutch cramp over hours of pinning the brake pedal (or sliding a clunky automatic shift lever back and forth between P and D), lest I lapse concentration and bump into the guy in front.

Danoff
...and I'd rather have my wife drive me to work than take the bus. But I think you understand my point - that accidents happen, and making arrangements because your car requires 4 limbs to operate when there are cars that require only 2 limbs to operate is certainly a "con".

I never said manuals were flawless. I simply believe the few drawbacks are very well outweighed by the positives.

Danoff · Oct 22, 2008

kingcars
2) I never ever have food or drink in my car while driving, and it's EXTREMELY rare in any case.

Why not? Because you drive stick?

kingcars
3) Injuries can happen to either foot/ankle/leg/etc (or both in the worst case), so even automatic drivers would be screwed.

me
accidents happen, and making arrangements because your car requires 4 limbs to operate when there are cars that require only 2 limbs to operate is certainly a "con".

Philly · Oct 22, 2008

Wolfe
I'll let you know when I do. I'll take hours of clutch cramp over hours of pinning the brake pedal (or sliding a clunky automatic shift lever back and forth between P and D), lest I lapse concentration and bump into the guy in front.

You'll still have to keep your foot on the brake pedal when on hills in a stick.

For me, I really enjoy the DSG gearbox I have. I never use drive mode, and actually feel like I'm doing something because I can feel every shift the car makes. And that is using the gear levers, not the paddles. I even used the "sport shifter" in the Hyundai I rented a month or so back, even though it felt like I was doing nothing. In fact, I have a hard time driving a car without a stick to move to change gears with. That, and after the DSG, I quite dislike driving cars where I either can't feel the shifts or the things standard automatics do.

However, my only experience in a manual car was my friend's Outback driving down the street and back. It was fun, and I kinda know what driving a manual is like, but I don't think I can compare it to any automatics.

///M-Spec · Oct 22, 2008

Wolfe
Oh, and Cloth > Leather.

Just like not all transmissions are the same, not all cloth and leather are the same either.

I would take any kind of leather over the mouse fur found in your typical sub-compact. The wife used to have a Jetta with black cloth seats and I hated it. It felt cheap, picked up every spec of lint that got near it and grayed at the edges. Pure trash.

But I would take Alcantara or any high quality cloth (like BMW's "M-cloth" or Volvo's "T-Tech") over the plasticy hides they stitch on some cars, which is barely a step up from vinyl. My 330i ZHP had a cloth interior: it was awesome. Still picked up lint, though.

Nappa leather or any high grade full grain leather simply cannot be beat, though Alcantara does come close. Porsche leather on their upgraded seats is pretty nice. Whatever they're putting in Lexus LSs and SCs these days is amazing. So is the new Novillo leather in the new M3. To borrow a phrase from Clarkson, "...like smearing honey on Keira Knightly".

..so do we need a Leather vs. Cloth Ultimate Showdown thread now? :lol:

M

Danoff · Oct 22, 2008

///M-Spec
EDIT: Since Danoff is showing off his resume, I'll do the same.

1st car (hand me down): 3 speed auto --GM Turbo-Hydramatic 125, baby!!
2nd car (hand me down): 4 speed auto --Dunno what it was or who made it, probably a GM HydraMatic of some sort
3rd car (first car I bought for myself): Getrag 260 5-speed manual
4th car: ZF Type C 5-speed manual
5th car: ZF Type C 5-speed manual
6th car: Getrag 217 6-speed manual
7th car: Getrag 226 6-speed manual

M

So, I'm seeing an awful lot of manual up there. Have you spent any appreciable time driving a good auto?

Rotary Junkie · Oct 22, 2008

Danoff
Why not? Because you drive stick?

Or because that's the way he is?

Now, let me add my piece...

Manuals are GREAT. Slushboxes are GREAT.

It boils down to service. If you're crap with a stick you'll kill it. If you're good, it will last damn near forever. ANY automatic will fry eventually (IE sooner than a stick that's driven with care).

Now then... I've seen manuals last without service (save clutch replacement) past 300k miles. Mind showing me an auto that cracks 200k without dying?

Danoff · Oct 22, 2008

Rotary Junkie
Now then... I've seen manuals last without service (save clutch replacement) past 300k miles. Mind showing me an auto that cracks 200k without dying?

That's fine and dandy if you're buying the car new. But if you buy it used you're in for a treat - many people who drive manuals are simply AWFUL to them. I bought my 6 speed manual with 30k mi and finally managed to force the dealership to replace the synchros and clutch at 50k. It took me 20k miles to convince them it needed to be done (under warranty of course, though, not the clutch... bastards). $1-2k of transmission work built up in 30k mi? I'd like to see you do that to an auto.

kingcars · Oct 22, 2008

Danoff
Why not? Because you drive stick?

No, if you actually read my posts, you'd know that my Tbird was an automatic for the first 5 years I had it. It's only been a stick for 2 months. I've also driven A LOT more automatic cars than I have stick. The reason I rarely have food or drink in my car is because:

A) I have no reason to eat or drink in my car
B) My interior is in awesome shape and I want to keep it that way

Danoff
That's fine and dandy if you're buying the car new. But if you buy it used you're in for a treat - many people who drive manuals are simply AWFUL to them. I bought my 6 speed manual with 30k mi and finally managed to force the dealership to replace the synchros and clutch at 50k. It took me 20k miles to convince them it needed to be done (under warranty of course, though, not the clutch... bastards). $1-2k of transmission work built up in 30k mi? I'd like to see you do that to an auto.

Haha, you should hear some stories I've heard with used autos. And my whole auto->5 speed swap cost $700 (tranny, pedals, clutch, flywheel, etc...and I coulda done it cheaper if I wanted to), so how the heck is it $1-2k on maintenance? I guess the simplicity of an older car wins!

Automatic vs. Manual: The Ultimate Showdown Thread

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