◆ SNAIL [Spec] Racing - Currently Recruiting for GT7 - JOIN TODAY!!Open 

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FSportIS
Thanks, I like autocrossing with my daily driver car so I can have fun finding out is limit and potential. It also doesn't put much stress on the engine compare to high speed road racing. Another thing is that in autocross, driving skill is more vital than car set up in getting the good time so it offer plenty of opportunity to learn about slow speed cornering techniques. I applied a lot of these learning into this GT6 game which i just started few weeks ago and it seems to work. However, in GT6, I'm still slower than most of the online players.

I believe you are in North CA? What tracks do you usually go to over there?
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You would think so lol... To me autocross is all about tires. It is a good way to get into performance driving but when you are on a road course a lot of the dynamics change and it is a completely different environment that you need to learn. I have been instructing for almost 3 years and found a lot of bad habits long time autocrossers develop. Please don't take it personal. it's just that I have experienced it first hand and I personally don't like it. Make sure you analyze and get the right information when you are out there autocrossing. People give misleading tips because they don't know what they are doing even though they have been in it for a rather long time.

I do all the tracks in Norcal, Thunderhill, Sonoma, Laguna Seca and sometimes Buttonwillow.
 
Neovre
You would think so lol... To me autocross is all about tires. It is a good way to get into performance driving but when you are on a road course a lot of the dynamics change and it is a completely different environment that you need to learn. I have been instructing for almost 3 years and found a lot of bad habits long time autocrossers develop. Please don't take it personal. it's just that I have experienced it first hand and I personally don't like it. Make sure you analyze and get the right information when you are out there autocrossing. People give misleading tips because they don't know what they are doing even though they have been in it for a rather long time.

I do all the tracks in Norcal, Thunderhill, Sonoma, Laguna Seca and sometimes Buttonwillow.
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I certainly agree with you for the most parts especially the difference between autocross and track racing. I also did both but with a lot less experience than you obviously. Even though the techniques require to do both can be different, there are certainly also some general principles that would work in both autocross and track.
1. Looking ahead. Our car goes where our eyes are looking.
2. There is bad and good driving line in both instances and picking the right one yields better time. Of course, different car might run on slightly different line.
3. Trail braking technique. This is very helpful to rotating the rear to point our car in the intended direction. It works for both autocross and track.

From your experience, what works in autocross that doesn't work in track? And what are some misleading tips that you have heard and how would you debunk those? I would appreciate your time sharing your perspective on this subject.
 
FSportIS
I certainly agree with you for the most parts especially the difference between autocross and track racing. I also did both but with a lot less experience than you obviously. Even though the techniques require to do both can be different, there are certainly also some general principles that would work in both autocross and track.
1. Looking ahead. Our car goes where our eyes are looking.
2. There is bad and good driving line in both instances and picking the right one yields better time. Of course, different car might run on slightly different line.
3. Trail braking technique. This is very helpful to rotating the rear to point our car in the intended direction. It works for both autocross and track.

From your experience, what works in autocross that doesn't work in track? And what are some misleading tips that you have heard and how would you debunk those? I would appreciate your time sharing your perspective on this subject.
Click to expand...

It is really basic things I am talking about such as keeping your hands at the 3 and 9 o clock position of the steering wheel at all times, never shuffle your hands going into a corner, smooth inputs on steering wheel.
Things you have to think about on a race track compared to autocross:
There's almost no gear shifting in an autocross compared to on a track, you don't have to think about downshifts, rev matching therefore their downshifts mess up their braking or they have to do it separately.
Also slip angles on a track is way higher than during autocross.
Tire temperature over the course of a session which is roughly 20-30 minutes, traffic management. Your fitness and concentration over the day of driving.

Top autocrossers would know those things but people who aren't pro solo people don't.
etc.
 
Neovre
It is really basic things I am talking about such as keeping your hands at the 3 and 9 o clock position of the steering wheel at all times, never shuffle your hands going into a corner, smooth inputs on steering wheel.
Things you have to think about on a race track compared to autocross:
There's almost no gear shifting in an autocross compared to on a track, you don't have to think about downshifts, rev matching therefore their downshifts mess up their braking or they have to do it separately.
Also slip angles on a track is way higher than during autocross.
Tire temperature over the course of a session which is roughly 20-30 minutes, traffic management. Your fitness and concentration over the day of driving.

Top autocrossers would know those things but people who aren't pro solo people don't.
etc.
Click to expand...

Yeah, you pointed out a lot of the differences. I would add that it adds more stress to the engine and the driver running on a road track too.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I thought 3-9 position is a good steering position because it gives the most feedback and we can turn the wheels smoothly. Smooth inputs on the steering wheel is also another good thing right as this is managing the side-side weight transfer better and not upsetting the car balance. I think they do shift gear a little from 1st to 2nd and downshift from 2nd and 1st time to time but of course this is no way comparing to the complexity of choosing and shifting the gear on a road track.

What are some bad tips that people should not follow?
 
Hello SNAIL's just stopped in to say hi and wish you all the best.

I've been in a racing hiatus with summer. Spend my game time socially in GTAV.

School starts in a few weeks for my boys. So that will be a good time to get back in the drivers seat.

D1 guys don't be nervous. I'm not racing in GT6. ;) no really though. Glad to see things going so well. I do miss SNAIL.

Maybe I'll fire up the PS3's and come run some laps with you guys soon.

Take care and maybe we will see each other on track soon then later.
 
FSportIS
Yeah, you pointed out a lot of the differences. I would add that it adds more stress to the engine and the driver running on a road track too.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I thought 3-9 position is a good steering position because it gives the most feedback and we can turn the wheels smoothly. Smooth inputs on the steering wheel is also another good thing right as this is managing the side-side weight transfer better and not upsetting the car balance. I think they do shift gear a little from 1st to 2nd and downshift from 2nd and 1st time to time but of course this is no way comparing to the complexity of choosing and shifting the gear on a road track.

What are some bad tips that people should not follow?
Click to expand...

Holding/keeping hands on the wheel at 3 and 9 is because:
1) you have the best/equal leverage for turning both left and right.
2) you have a reference point for accuracy when you need to make counter steers in quick succession.
3) it's the next most comfortable position from resting your hands on your lap and steer with your fingers lol (at least for me)

A very good analogy for the reason behind smooth inputs is stretching a rubber band. The slower (reasonably) you stretch a rubber band, the less easy it will snap apart and easier for you to find the limit. In terms of tire grip, the smoother your inputs the more grip you can get out of the tires and also the better the feedbacks are of where the limit of adhesion is in the tires. The weight/weight transfer is just a coefficient that will amplify the effect of your inputs in terms of cornering.

I couldn't think of bad tips off the top of my head because I haven't been autocrossing for a long time and don't remember what sort of things they would preach but the hand shuffling and not keeping the hands at 3 and 9 bothered me a lot and they weren't able to get rid of the habit right away. Also they tend to have a pretty hard grip on the steering wheel.
 
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FSportIS
Yeah, you pointed out a lot of the differences. I would add that it adds more stress to the engine and the driver running on a road track too.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I thought 3-9 position is a good steering position because it gives the most feedback and we can turn the wheels smoothly. Smooth inputs on the steering wheel is also another good thing right as this is managing the side-side weight transfer better and not upsetting the car balance. I think they do shift gear a little from 1st to 2nd and downshift from 2nd and 1st time to time but of course this is no way comparing to the complexity of choosing and shifting the gear on a road track.

What are some bad tips that people should not follow?
Click to expand...
I'd say the thing I run into with autocrossers is not being smooth. I think the biggest thing to watch out for is advice from "instructors" at small events. I've been to track days where the instructors were so far off line they needed a map to find the track. There's a lot of blind leading the blind at those types of events.

I remember teaching at a school that was hiring some local autocrossers to teach and working on a threshold braking exercise with this guy who said to one of the students something like "good job you almost stopped in the threshold". I thought that was a strange way to word it so I asked him what he meant and he said "the threshold is like 20ft right?" The guy didn't even know what he was teaching.

The hand position thing is common among a lot of drivers these days and is a pet peeve of mine. I have to say though there isn't just one school of thought on the hand position thing. Some of the schools I've worked for teach shuffle steering which if done right is effective. It depends on what type of car you're in and what type of track you're on. In a street car with slow steering I shuffle but in a proper race car with faster steering hands stay at 9 and 3. The longer you do this sport the more you'll learn it's more about the result more than the technique. An example of this is left foot braking. I saw a video of a guy using his left and right foot in a somewhat crazy left/right foot braking technique and it worked great for him. Any instructor that told him to right foot brake only would be a fool in my mind. Same goes for shuffle steer and traditional 9/3. The chief instructor for many years at Skip Barber shuffle steers and would blow the doors off of anyone while doing it.

Anyways if you make it to an extreme speed event track me down and I'll give you some free instruction if you want. My offer is always on the table to any SNAIL that if you come to an event I'm at I'll happily give you some instruction. I can honestly say I teach racing because I love it not because of the paycheck because no one would work for the wages I make. LOL.
 
@hillracing great insight! Yeah, there are probably different techniques for steering, braking etc and some work better than others for different individual based on their preference and exposure level to that technique.

I have researched a whole bunch regarding left foot braking. In many of the racing literature and words from some of the champs, left foot braking indeed has an advantage because it minimize the time to transition from braking to acceleration and also maximizing the available traction that can be used as well as keeping the car more balance with better front/rear weight management. I personally improved a lot in GT6 with left foot braking so I do buy into that concept.

Where is your extreme speed event located? What is your name so I can go out there and ask to look for your help.

You know, the best job in the world in the job you have passion with, money can't buy that :D

Neovre
Holding/keeping hands on the wheel at 3 and 9 is because:
1) you have the best/equal leverage for turning both left and right.
2) you have a reference point for accuracy when you need to make counter steers in quick succession.
3) it's the next most comfortable position from resting your hands on your lap and steer with your fingers lol (at least for me)

A very good analogy for the reason behind smooth inputs is stretching a rubber band. The slower (reasonably) you stretch a rubber band, the less easy it will snap apart and easier for you to find the limit. In terms of tire grip, the smoother your inputs the more grip you can get out of the tires and also the better the feedbacks are of where the limit of adhesion is in the tires. The weight/weight transfer is just a coefficient that will amplify the effect of your inputs in terms of cornering.

I couldn't think of bad tips off the top of my head because I haven't been autocrossing for a long time and don't remember what sort of things they would preach but the hand shuffling and not keeping the hands at 3 and 9 bothered me a lot and they weren't able to get rid of the habit right away. Also they tend to have a pretty hard grip on the steering wheel.
Click to expand...

I mostly autocross with Porsche club even though I drive a Lexus IS350 :D and many of the instructors in Porsche Club are legit with some of them being national autocross champs. They taught me the 3-9 steering position, smooth input, trail braking, looking further ahead and many more other tips which align with a lot of what you said. I guess I'm lucky to meet with good instructors just like I have already met some great mentors on here in GTPlanet who gave me tips on racing fast in GT6 :D

By the way, here are some of the photos/video from last autocross in May
autocross map
whiiv7.jpg


Me and one instructor in my Lexus IS350 :D
14sz39i.jpg


Video:


 
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FSportIS
@hillracing great insight! Yeah, there are probably different techniques for steering, braking etc and some work better than others for different individual based on their preference and exposure level to that technique.

I have researched a whole bunch regarding left foot braking. In many of the racing literature and words from some of the champs, left foot braking indeed has an advantage because it minimize the time to transition from braking to acceleration and also maximizing the available traction that can be used as well as keeping the car more balance with better front/rear weight management. I personally improved a lot in GT6 with left foot braking so I do buy into that concept.

Where is your extreme speed event located? What is your name so I can go out there and ask to look for your help.

You know, the best job in the world in the job you have passion with, money can't buy that :D



I mostly autocross with Porsche club even though I drive a Lexus IS350 :D and many of the instructors in Porsche Club are legit with some of them being national autocross champs. They taught me the 3-9 steering position, smooth input, trail braking, looking further ahead and many more other tips which align with a lot of what you said. I guess I'm lucky to meet with good instructors.
Click to expand...
The Extreme Speed events are all over So Cal. My buddy owns it and Redline Time Attack which I'm competing in this year some. He usually has 2-3 events a month at any of the local tracks like Buttonwillow, Willow (both streets and Big) Calspeed and Chuckwalla. I'll be at all the events that have the FT 86 Cup events and at the Redline events. My name is Christopher Hill. Used to be really active with SNAIL but life hasn't allowed for that much recently. Did make part of practice yesterday which was a blast. Some of you guys have really picked up the pace since last time I raced you.
 
I think the only reason left foot braking never worked for me is because before I got race seats I used my left foot to stabilize and brace myself during hard braking. Otherwise it would be hard to properly modulate braking when your torso is trying slide out of the seat.

Can't stress proper seats/restraint system enough if you want to do any semi-serious driving.

The really big difference between auto-x and track driving is just the sheer speed. Learning the limits in a 90mph turn is a lot different than at 45mph. Feeling the car squirm and move underneath you at high speeds is exhilarating. Auto-x is mostly point and shoot for a minute of fun. Track driving is exciting in so many more ways. It's exhausting. It's more expensive and, if you are open to it, definitely more educational. Brake fade will rear its ugly head on lap 2 or 3 in your Lexus and you will know fear :)
 
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FSportIS
@hillracing great insight! Yeah, there are probably different techniques for steering, braking etc and some work better than others for different individual based on their preference and exposure level to that technique.

I have researched a whole bunch regarding left foot braking. In many of the racing literature and words from some of the champs, left foot braking indeed has an advantage because it minimize the time to transition from braking to acceleration and also maximizing the available traction that can be used as well as keeping the car more balance with better front/rear weight management. I personally improved a lot in GT6 with left foot braking so I do buy into that concept.

Where is your extreme speed event located? What is your name so I can go out there and ask to look for your help.

You know, the best job in the world in the job you have passion with, money can't buy that :D



I mostly autocross with Porsche club even though I drive a Lexus IS350 :D and many of the instructors in Porsche Club are legit with some of them being national autocross champs. They taught me the 3-9 steering position, smooth input, trail braking, looking further ahead and many more other tips which align with a lot of what you said. I guess I'm lucky to meet with good instructors just like I have already met some great mentors on here in GTPlanet who gave me tips on racing fast in GT6 :D

By the way, here are some of the photos/video from last autocross in May
autocross map
whiiv7.jpg


Me and one instructor in my Lexus IS350 :D
14sz39i.jpg


Video:
Click to expand...

Watching your video I can tell you what you can improve right off the bat. Instead of turning right at the cone, set up your turns earlier. Start your turns slightly wider and earlier and aim to make your apex just past and slightly behind the cone...don't make the cone your apex...make an imaginary point past and slightly behind it your apex.
 
hillracing
I'd say the thing I run into with autocrossers is not being smooth. I think the biggest thing to watch out for is advice from "instructors" at small events. I've been to track days where the instructors were so far off line they needed a map to find the track. There's a lot of blind leading the blind at those types of events.

I remember teaching at a school that was hiring some local autocrossers to teach and working on a threshold braking exercise with this guy who said to one of the students something like "good job you almost stopped in the threshold". I thought that was a strange way to word it so I asked him what he meant and he said "the threshold is like 20ft right?" The guy didn't even know what he was teaching.

The hand position thing is common among a lot of drivers these days and is a pet peeve of mine. I have to say though there isn't just one school of thought on the hand position thing. Some of the schools I've worked for teach shuffle steering which if done right is effective. It depends on what type of car you're in and what type of track you're on. In a street car with slow steering I shuffle but in a proper race car with faster steering hands stay at 9 and 3. The longer you do this sport the more you'll learn it's more about the result more than the technique. An example of this is left foot braking. I saw a video of a guy using his left and right foot in a somewhat crazy left/right foot braking technique and it worked great for him. Any instructor that told him to right foot brake only would be a fool in my mind. Same goes for shuffle steer and traditional 9/3. The chief instructor for many years at Skip Barber shuffle steers and would blow the doors off of anyone while doing it.

Anyways if you make it to an extreme speed event track me down and I'll give you some free instruction if you want. My offer is always on the table to any SNAIL that if you come to an event I'm at I'll happily give you some instruction. I can honestly say I teach racing because I love it not because of the paycheck because no one would work for the wages I make. LOL.
Click to expand...
You're always a few steps ahead of me in terms of articulation in explaining things 👍
 
Can confirm, autocross will teach you alot of bad habits lol. Wasn't until I did a few track days that I noticed. Learned left foot braking when learning drifting, most beneficial thing I have learned.
 
After 20 odd years of racing my GP bikes on tracks up and down the east parts of Canada and the US i finally did some laps in a car on a track for the first time! Last night @pyxen let me ride along with him in his Miata for two hours of lapping at http://www.calabogiemotorsports.com/ Had a blast, very cool staying with much faster cars thru the corners, anyone can go fast in a straight line! What an amazing track, very technical and I've never seen so many blind corners, somewhere around 10 out of the 20!
Thanks again Tim, now how do I explain to the wife that along with my biking and flying, I now want to get a car for the track!!
 
aerolite
After 20 odd years of racing my GP bikes on tracks up and down the east parts of Canada and the US i finally did some laps in a car on a track for the first time! Last night @pyxen let me ride along with him in his Miata for two hours of lapping at http://www.calabogiemotorsports.com/ Had a blast, very cool staying with much faster cars thru the corners, anyone can go fast in a straight line! What an amazing track, very technical and I've never seen so many blind corners, somewhere around 10 out of the 20!
Thanks again Tim, now how do I explain to the wife that along with my biking and flying, I now want to get a car for the track!!
Click to expand...
Wouldn't it be cool if PD would release a new version of Tourist Trophy (if anyone remembers that game)
I think a snail motorcycle racing division would be awesome!!!
 
McTrucker
It's 2000. It didn't have a scratch till I slipped unloading it in my driveway :banghead:
Click to expand...
That's fairly common to people bringing home new toys. Especially if you are somewhat new to sport bikes. The fairing/fuel tank is probably discontinued from Kawi in that color scheme should you want to replace it...usually they start to discontinue the specific painted bits between 10-15yrs old.
 

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