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[IceWarden]

E

Sorry for being a little late to this discussion as I know there's already been a few replies on this topic. However, I have a few points I'd like to make as well. It's important to note that the purpose of dropping one week out of the four weeks in a season is meant to serve two purposes.

The first purpose is to allow our members to still be in contention for a seasonal championship even if real life gets in the way. This means that going out of town for a cousin's wedding or celebrating grandma's birthday won't throw three weeks of stellar driving out the window.

The second purpose is to encourage more participation. As we all know, being able to drop your lowest score is an advantage. However, the only way someone can do this is by participating in all four weeks. Therefore, allowing drivers to drop their lowest score is as much of a "participation bonus" as it is anything else.

That being said, I don't feel like your idea of dropping lowest race finishes serves either of these purposes. To me it only seems to provide a safety net for drivers to fall back on if they don't perform well in certain races (regardless of the reason) and I don't think that's the true nature of motorsports specifically, and all sports in general. I understand that being involved in incidents outside of your control sucks, but that's racing.

Well it's too bad you feel this way. I'm sure most of us would tell you that we race week in and week out because of the fellowship, racecraft and competition. Not because of the "drop week" if you come to all four nights.

Saying that it's not the nature of motorsports again is driving me nuts. Real racing has nothing to do with this series. There is no drop week for racing 4 weeks in a row. So we are outside of any racing precedent already with the drop week thingy.

You say my idea would not promote participation and I disagree and say it would increase participation and probably come close to eliminating rage quitting. I have seen people get punted, disconnected etc a couple of races into the night and decide the night is screwed because you can't win the night. But if you throw out those specific races then the night is not lost.

Anyways...you guys are against it for your own reasons. No big deal.

 

[tezgm99]

I'm not sure if you've seen this yet, but I was really impressed with Fernando Alonso's response to losing the Formula One championship due to an incident at Spa that was completely out of his control.

Vettel can claim having an easy win taken away at Valencia through no fault of his own though

 

[Dragonwhisky]

As to Jeff and I's discussions on the current topic of "handicapping" the league. All I really have to say is the league organizers appear to have put quite a bit of thought into the current points system and the dynamic divisional layout creates built in handicapping already.

What it really boils down to is, are you here to win or are you here to have fun? If the former is the case then by all means complicate the system further to reward the folks who have less chance to win a prize. If the latter is the case, leave it alone.

As a general rule I'm against anything remotely resembling "handicapping" and despise it in bowling leagues. But I like to bowl so I deal with it. If further adjustments to scoring happen here I'll deal with it. I come to race, and even if others disagree with this attitude, I treat sunday nights the same way I treat my Tuesday night bowling league. Have fun, do the best I can. Winning will take care of itself. Yes, winning is usually more fun than losing, still, I would rather lose by one than win by 100. I ain't in it for the money or the glory.

 

[JazzNine]

anyone have ze s2000 please gibe to me

 

[Chiochan]

Hi Jazz, how are you doing? I could send you one this afternoon.

 

[Apmaddock]

anyone have ze s2000 please gibe to me

Here you go.

* * * * * * * * * * * * *​

I don't know. Maybe it hasn't been related well enough, yet.

Division X has 3 racers. The lowest possible score that could win the night is 92.

Division Y has 14 racers. The lowest possible score that could win the night is 58.

Are you telling me that makes for an even shot at the prizes?

* * * * * * * * * * * * *​

Finally, JoeW: A monthly series is more of an example of your combined performance over several nights, not several races. I could go on about this but it's been done already and zer0's stated his opinion, so I'll cease.

 

[zer05ive]

Well it's too bad you feel this way. I'm sure most of us would tell you that we race week in and week out because of the fellowship, racecraft and competition. Not because of the "drop week" if you come to all four nights.

If you're saying that you race because of the fellowship, racecraft and competition, then why are we even having this conversation? If that were the case, I don't think dropping your lowest finishes should matter that much.

Saying that it's not the nature of motorsports again is driving me nuts. Real racing has nothing to do with this series.

It has everything to do with this series. We play a motorsports simulation. I repeat, a motorsport. As in "the thrill of victory..the agony of defeat". You can't have one without the other. It's the tried and true formula that makes sports so appealing and entertaining. It's why we watch sports and it's why we participate in them. Without the agony of defeat, there is no thrill of victory. If we were to drop everyone's six lowest races, it would be more like "the thrill of victory, the prevention of defeat".

There is no drop week for racing 4 weeks in a row. So we are outside of any racing precedent already with the drop week thingy.

The difference here is that we're not paid professionals who's job it is to race a complete schedule. We race every single week except for holidays. Are you saying that anyone who misses a week should be automatically put in last place? Again, the drop week is designed to prevent that from happening. The "participation bonus" I referenced earlier is exactly that - a "bonus".

You say my idea would not promote participation and I disagree and say it would increase participation and probably come close to eliminating rage quitting. I have seen people get punted, disconnected etc a couple of races into the night and decide the night is screwed because you can't win the night. But if you throw out those specific races then the night is not lost.

I'm not concerned about rage-quitters who quit because "the night is lost". That kind of behavior has never been welcome around here and and never will be. Therefore, I see no need to implement policies to appease guys who do that. Besides, as you said yourself:

I'm sure most of us would tell you that we race week in and week out because of the fellowship, racecraft and competition.

 

[Skills]

So anyway, I hope kcheeb is okay. He has been noticeably absent.

 

[IceWarden]

In the perfect world of happy racers, whether you win or lose, your attitude about rage quitters is the way it should be. But getting disconnected randomly and getting driven off the course by drivers who are not on the same page as you can, and has, gotten under the skin of many of the higher ups here. The very same happy drivers who love the fellowship, racecraft and competition. When one or two of the peices of the formula fall to the wayside then I see people get frustrated.

So where is the simulation of real motorsport with disconnections and people who can't seem to keep their fenders away from yours? In real racing it requires a racing license to even get on the track and in that regard you know that everyone on the course is being held to a certain standard.

This is why I say that in many ways the nature of motorsports has nothing to with this series. You can talk about how "in real life, blah blah this or blah blah that" til you are blue in the face. But in the end you are sitting there in your home sipping gin and juice play a video game.

We do our best to perform within the parameters set forth by GT5 and the game they have created. It would be nice to cut some slack to those who cannot control the circumstances by which they are being eliminated from winning the competition. And the way these people are being eliminated fromthis have no similarities to real racing.

It has been a frustrating argument that I know I have lost but my point has been made and the decision is not in my favor. I'll see you guys for practice Wednesday

 

[zer05ive]

Your comments above make it seem as if you've never read the 'Rules' section of the original post:

Rules
We expect all drivers to follow GTP OLR Rules and pursue good racecraft at all times. If you're not sure what racecraft is, watch this video. It can be summed up in one simple 'Golden Rule' of motorsports: It is the responsibility of the overtaking driver, meaning the car that is attempting to execute the pass, to make sure that the pass is made cleanly and incident free. If you don't agree with this rule or don't think it applies to you, then this is not the league for you. If you ever feel like a fellow driver in this league is not following the rules, please submit a complaint to our stewards. They will review the incident and reference our penalty system to see if a penalty is warranted.

I don't know of any league or series here on GTPlanet who has spent more time and effort trying to create an environment in which good racecraft is rewarded (we give out prizes for God's sake!) and poor racecraft is punished (see here and here). But instead of utilizing what we have in place to promote a clean racing environment, you simply want to complain well after the fact when clean racing doesn't happen? I'm sorry, but that's not how we want poor racecraft addressed around here. As a steward, you shold know this first-hand. This is not a perfect world and things don't always go your way when racing. If you want to play a game where nothing bad or "out of your control" ever happens, then racing is not your game.

And as with any form of motorsports (or any other sport for that matter), the rule breakers are punished but the victims are not compensated. When was the last time you saw a driver who was a victim of a crash have his finishing position improved or had his points haul increased because what happened to him was "not his fault". This isn't the first grade where everyone gets a ribbon for participating.

 

[Drgreenthumb977]

In the perfect world of happy racers, whether you win or lose, your attitude about rage quitters is the way it should be. But getting disconnected randomly and getting driven off the course by drivers who are not on the same page as you can, and has, gotten under the skin of many of the higher ups here. The very same happy drivers who love the fellowship, racecraft and competition. When one or two of the peices of the formula fall to the wayside then I see people get frustrated.

So where is the simulation of real motorsport with disconnections and people who can't seem to keep their fenders away from yours? In real racing it requires a racing license to even get on the track and in that regard you know that everyone on the course is being held to a certain standard.

This is why I say that in many ways the nature of motorsports has nothing to with this series. You can talk about how "in real life, blah blah this or blah blah that" til you are blue in the face. But in the end you are sitting there in your home sipping gin and juice play a video game.

We do our best to perform within the parameters set forth by GT5 and the game they have created. It would be nice to cut some slack to those who cannot control the circumstances by which they are being eliminated from winning the competition. And the way these people are being eliminated fromthis have no similarities to real racing.

It has been a frustrating argument that I know I have lost but my point has been made and the decision is not in my favor. I'll see you guys for practice Wednesday

You can talk about that but the new update physics make the races hard and impossible to pass and that can make racers rage. I will never agree GT5 change the online physics to the same as offline because offline is unrealistics and looks like arcade, whitout possibility's to changing your line by a little skid . In fact offline physics was for play whit the computers not the human, imagine put the online physics in the offline you will see much errors by the computers.

 

[OwensRacing]

You can talk about that but the new update physics make the races hard and impossible to pass and that can make racers rage. I will never agree GT5 change the online physics to the same as offline because offline is unrealistics and looks like arcade, whitout possibility's to changing your line by a little skid . In fact offline physics was for play whit the computers not the human, imagine put the online physics in the offline you will see much errors by the computers.

Might wanna do a test on that. Ensure tire wear and all is on. There been a few extremely fast guys getting same times online and offline after the update. Reporting back the same feel too.

Pretty hard to deny when the lap times show the same.

 

[JLBowler]

* * * * * * * * * * * * *​

I don't know. Maybe it hasn't been related well enough, yet.

Division X has 3 racers. The lowest possible score that could win the night is 92.

Division Y has 14 racers. The lowest possible score that could win the night is 58.

Are you telling me that makes for an even shot at the prizes?

* * * * * * * * * * * * *​

An extreme example but it gets the point across. If anyone is going to sit here and try and tell me that scoring 90 points in a room with 7 drivers is a better performance than scoring 89 points in a room with 13 drivers, I don't think it's possible to have this discussion with you.

It's not a handicap system. Since the bowling comparison was used, I'll stay with it. Handicap gives pins to someone with less skill to make it possible to compete with someone with more skill when they are competing on identical conditions. This is an issues where driver are not competing on identical conditions and has nothing to do with the skill of anyone. It is simply a way to more equally compare the performance of drivers who are competing in rooms of different sizes and therefore more or less competition.

Off topic now, as someone who hasn't gotten a pin in over 20 years, I too hate handicap but I understand it has to be used in bowling to have any kind of participation in leagues. The number of true scratch bowlers is so low, that there would be no more leagues if handicap was done away with. The number of guys that think they are scratch bowlers is just as high and they are usually exposed as soon as they leave their nice comfy house shot, but that's a rant for a different place.

Dragon, what's your average?

 

[IceWarden]

Now you guys are starting to get under my skin by assuming I am talking about myself. I have not complained about anything that has happened to ME during this discussion. I have not EVER been disconnected during a race since being with SNAIL and I have not been a victim of poor racecraft in the recent weeks. I am doing just peachy except for the fact you are directing your comments to me...thinking I am complaining about things happening to me when that is decidedly not the case. BUT I do hear things, see things and witness things. As well as the frustration people have to deal with. I thought I would go out there and champion the cause of people who I see are a victim of frequent disconnects and "driving incidents"...many of which are things that they can't necessarily file a "complaint" over but are nonetheless a victim of a set of very minor judgment errors that happen to leave other driver off the track. Gee, wouldn't it be nice to drop the lowest 6 individual races instead of a full night for all the X reasons I laid out. Then people wouldn't have to get so frustrated over individual things out of their control. But instead you have chosen to direct derogatory comments at me. Not cool.

I know the rules and I have driven on a race track. I know about racing and I don't appreciate the comments directed toward me when I have not "complained".

Your "first grade" and "you simply want to complain" comments have really gotten under my skin.

I will meditate and consult the Force....

 

[Drgreenthumb977]

Might wanna do a test on that. Ensure tire wear and all is on. There been a few extremely fast guys getting same times online and offline after the update. Reporting back the same feel too.

Pretty hard to deny when the lap times show the same.

I didnt talk about hot lap or if the racers are fast or not but the game feel and im not the only racer to talk about that. But the update got some positive things, so i have to not talk too much badly about that update.

 

[JLBowler]

Both of these ongoing discussions made me think about the IMCA rules. IMCA is the one of the national sanctioning bodies for dirt modified racing. IMCA has a rule that will allow racers to drop races. They only take your best 30 night of racing for State, Regional, and National championships. Their reasoning is that it makes it possible for the guy that lives in an area with fewer tracks and may only have access to 30 races a year a chance to compete with a guy that has 5 tracks in his backyard and has access to 100 or more races a year. It's not the greatest system, but it's what they can do.

They also have an adjustment procedure for smaller fields. 22 cars is the max size for an A main and a win is worth 40 points going down one point for each spot. If they don't have at least 12 cars, then a win is worth 30 points going down one for each spot. They are currently looking at adding another tier to this which would kick in at 17 cars and make wins with 12 to 17 pay 35 points.

Just making a point that some of things that SNAIL does or is discussing, are actually done in real racing.

Also, a disconnect is a mechanical failure. Some part of the mechanicals that you use to race failed causing you to be disconnected.

 

[Drgreenthumb977]

Anyway i have all right to not like that new update physics driving because gt5 have no right to change his driving anytime they wants. I have pay gt5 and all the DLC for the game i have before this update and now i dont like gt5 like in my oldtime. Maybe im wrong for who's love that new physics but im right to not agree this update physics because i pay for it.

 

[qwietstorm]

I didnt talk about hot lap or if the racers are fast or not but the game feel and im not the only racer to talk about that. But the update got some positive things, so i have to not talk too much badly about that update.

I agree, the update has definitely changed the feel of some of the cars. I have taken the advice that was given here last week and used it to keep me calm when I get worked up about the car not handling as beautifully as it once did. Just take it as it is, and if it's a tune that I have put on a car, modify it slightly until it feels the same (or as close as possible). So far it's working.

Green I fully understand and agree with the handling changing 100% but there's nothing we can do about it so we just have to adjust our driving styles accordingly.

 

[JLBowler]

Anyway i have all right to not like that new update physics driving because gt5 have no right to change his driving anytime they wants. I have pay gt5 and all the DLC for the game i have before this update and now i dont like gt5 like in my oldtime. Maybe im wrong for who's love that new physics but im right to not agree this update physics because i pay for it.

You paid for software and the opportunity to play online at no additional cost. The publisher of any software has the right to update or change said software anytime they want to. If you don't want the updates, you have the right to unplug your PS3 from the internet and play the original version of the game offline all you want. Complaining about a change that affects everyone that is playing the game isn't going to do any good. If it's that big of a deal to you, I suggest you spend less time complaining about it and more time practicing with the new physics. That's what the fast guys will be doing in order to stay fast.

 

[Dragonwhisky]

Dragon, what's your average?

Currently carrying a 186. Usually run in the 170s. Bought a new ball for the tournament in Louisiana last spring and it seems to be working better for me.

The problem I have with handicaps, whether called "adjustments" or not, is that they need constant refinements to maintain their fairness. I know the formula for handicapping bowling averages but haven't ever determined how the base average is decided upon. In my almost 30 years of bowling that base has been arbitrarily valued and almost always favors one side of the spectrum or the other. It never has truly leveled the playing field. I think this is a result of the league management not taking into account changes in skill across the group. It is also not very practical to adjust the handicap formula week to week.

It just bugs me sometimes to have to overcome a 200+ pin deficit before the first ball is even rolled.

I wouldn't like to go into a race knowing my points are going to be "adjusted" based on other folks attendance, whether advantageous to me or not.

My impression of the league is that it's designed for fun racing and not as a breeding ground for gt academy graduates. I do not mean by this that current or future GTA (Gran Turismo Aliens) should not be in the league. I just don't think its meant to train for that level. It can be used as such and has the structure already in place to encourage those that wish to, to refine their skills, and if D1 is achieved, that person could consider themselves ready for world class competition. But it doesn't seem to me to be the purpose that drives the league. Nor do I think it should be.

I just don't think adjustments to placement points based on attendance is appropriate in this environment.

The only thing I can control is my racecraft, sportsmanship, race pace and attitude. My performance should be judged by that and nothing I have no control over, ie others attendance, race pace, sportsmanship and attitude.

I want my points to be mine. The current system manages that just fine.

The Dynamic Divisional Layout (management oughta copywrite/trademark that ) is by design setup to bring drivers of like skill level and mindset together for closer competition. This is what handicapping is all about. Making that loss by one much more common than that win by 100.

Sam Posey said it well during the last F1 race last weekend. Watching Schumacher win was boring. Watching Alonzo and Vettle struggle to the last was much more interesting.

/ramble

 

[Apmaddock]

Changing the way that a night's scores are reflected with reference to the prizes will not change, at all, the closeness of the racing in any division. Nor will it change who gets promoted/relegated or when.

Most people would agree that racing with more people is more fun. There are more cars to have interactions with, etc. The problem is that those people in a bigger room are, right now, given a disadvantage in the prizes.

 

[JLBowler]

@dragon

How else would you suggest to accurately compare points scored in a room with 7 to a room with 12? If you really think it's fair to say that points earned in each room are equal to each other, like I said earlier, there is no point in discussing it with you.

I'm going to put this in big bold print in the hopes that it sinks in:

It's not a handicap. It doesn't change the standings within the division. It's only used to determine the weekly prize winners by more accurately comparing the performance of drivers in rooms of different size. The adjustment would never need to be changed unless SNAIL changed the entire points system becasue it's based on minimum available points for each night. The points would not be changed based on the adjustment for the monthly championship.

 

[zer05ive]

Now you guys are starting to get under my skin by assuming I am talking about myself. I have not complained about anything that has happened to ME during this discussion. I have not EVER been disconnected during a race since being with SNAIL and I have not been a victim of poor racecraft in the recent weeks. I am doing just peachy except for the fact you are directing your comments to me...thinking I am complaining about things happening to me when that is decidedly not the case. BUT I do hear things, see things and witness things. As well as the frustration people have to deal with. I thought I would go out there and champion the cause of people who I see are a victim of frequent disconnects and "driving incidents"...many of which are things that they can't necessarily file a "complaint" over but are nonetheless a victim of a set of very minor judgment errors that happen to leave other driver off the track. Gee, wouldn't it be nice to drop the lowest 6 individual races instead of a full night for all the X reasons I laid out. Then people wouldn't have to get so frustrated over individual things out of their control. But instead you have chosen to direct derogatory comments at me. Not cool.

I know the rules and I have driven on a race track. I know about racing and I don't appreciate the comments directed toward me when I have not "complained".

Your "first grade" and "you simply want to complain" comments have really gotten under my skin.

I will meditate and consult the Force....

Save the meditation and just read this instead. If you want to know why I thought you were talking about yourself, there you have it.

 

[Rallywagon]

 

[zer05ive]

Both of these ongoing discussions made me think about the IMCA rules. IMCA is the one of the national sanctioning bodies for dirt modified racing. IMCA has a rule that will allow racers to drop races. They only take your best 30 night of racing for State, Regional, and National championships. Their reasoning is that it makes it possible for the guy that lives in an area with fewer tracks and may only have access to 30 races a year a chance to compete with a guy that has 5 tracks in his backyard and has access to 100 or more races a year. It's not the greatest system, but it's what they can do.

Well then it's a good thing we all have access to the same tracks! And when we don't, we fix the problem.

 

[Drgreenthumb977]

You paid for software and the opportunity to play online at no additional cost. The publisher of any software has the right to update or change said software anytime they want to. If you don't want the updates, you have the right to unplug your PS3 from the internet and play the original version of the game offline all you want. Complaining about a change that affects everyone that is playing the game isn't going to do any good. If it's that big of a deal to you, I suggest you spend less time complaining about it and more time practicing with the new physics. That's what the fast guys will be doing in order to stay fast.

Im not complaining , i give my opinion and if i need to pay for play online and not get what i dont want i will do 100% sure. People dont have to pay online because the console is more expensive. I practicing every day whit the new physics for stay warm and fast so im right to give my opinion anytime i want except if i talk about the league so im not and i did not turn off my ps3 for that reason and he still on. You give a opinion to make my opinion as a worst it isn't open . I know you right about affects everyone isn't going to do any good and i close my threat right now and forget this update.

 

[IceWarden]

I was being rhetorical. Even though I do hate those things I do not complain about them publicly.

Still, bad form by condescending like that.

 

[JLBowler]

Well then it's a good thing we all have access to the same tracks! And when we don't, we fix the problem.

I just threw it out there to show that real racing series do make accomodations for their drivers who have issues competing in as many races as other competitors. The specifics were just extra.

 

[Chiochan]

So, this debate is really great but WHAT CARS ARE WE DRIVING THIS WEEK?

 

[Apmaddock]

Some people have more stamina than others.

So, this debate is really great but WHAT CARS ARE WE DRIVING THIS WEEK?

I would also like to know that. I would like to host a break-in/enduro session tonight with the Prize A but I can't really do that if dude never posts it.