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[zer05ive]

No
You justify a usually good driver's poor manoeuver by this. "But he aknowledged it afterwards by lifting the throttle".
While a driver who's had difficulties in the past will not be given the "benefit of doubt" even if he stops and/or release the throttle.

My 2 cents.

Maxime, sorry for not replying to your PM's but I just didn't know how to respond to them. However, since you want to claim publicly that you were not given the "benefit of the doubt", I must point out the complete and utter misrepresentation of that facts that your claim makes. Even after many, many, many, PM's between you and I, you still did not seem to understand that there was any fault in your driving. Therefore, I created the Last Chance List specifically because I wanted to give you one "last chance" to prove that you put good racecraft ahead of winning at all costs. And while it's true that you did give a contact concession on a couple of occasions on Sunday night, there were several other instances in which you did not drive like you were on probation, let alone on your "last chance". Therefore the decision had to be made to ban you from S.N.A.I.L. - you simply did not give us a choice.

As jobyone outlined here, we would be okay with you joining practice sessions to prove that you can drive with the good racecraft that we demand from all SNAILs. Wednesday nights would be a good time to do this since we race in the Open Lobby. However, until you can prove that, your PSN ID remain deleted form the SNAIL_DivisionX accounts so that you won't be able join any of the events in those official lounges.

Please note that I have nothing personal against you, but you were given fair warning on many occasions, and you simply did not improve your racecraft as we had hoped. At some point, we've got to draw the line and say enough is enough. I wish you the best of luck and hopefully one day you can rejoin us as a clean racer with good racecraft. 👍

 

[jobyone]

My point is that I've seen it happen where someone has contact through their own fault, blames the other person when they were the one that caused the situation. What if they now to retaliate use the REP system and give that person a 0? Is that person being judged fairly? How many people are going to go out of their way to judge their fellow racers for good reasons and how many are going to do so out of anger?

In my idea of having steward checks it would be one driver per weekend per division and if while doing your check you saw another driver driving poorly you could take action on what you saw. I guarantee you I could watch a single race in a division and see who the problem children are. The reason I like this idea is it puts the thought there that any of the races for the night could be watched by a steward with or without a protest. It also can be used to help drivers that need it.

Anyways I'm sure you're going to stick to your idea but I wanted to voice my thoughts on it.

I think that in order to give a particularly low REP score to someone it should require an accompanying complaint. If someone has done something bad enough to warrant a 0 or 1 then surely we want a complaint filed so that the stewards can address the issue.

I like this idea much better than the rating system due to its possible retaliations it may infer.

I think this could also allow us to file complaints anonymously in a way. Rather than filing a small complaint using the current system for say a slight tap you could just give them a REP score of 2. But if I want to give them a 1 I would have to file a complaint.

I do think dropping the lowest and highest is smart. I also feel like using only the last say 50 ratings would be good. That way a user could move past some early troubles they had.

 

[zer05ive]

My point is that I've seen it happen where someone has contact through their own fault, blames the other person when they were the one that caused the situation. What if they now to retaliate use the REP system and give that person a 0? Is that person being judged fairly? How many people are going to go out of their way to judge their fellow racers for good reasons and how many are going to do so out of anger?

I think the fact that we're going to drop the lowest and highest rating each driver gets will serve as a good way to solve the rage rating concerns.

Well if you drop the lowest and highest score then you should remove the Super-Friend and the Revenge ratings.

If you get a bunch of zero ratings then you might be the problem after all

Exactly. If a driver constantly finds himself complaining that his REP is too low or insisting that multiple drivers are rage rating him, it might be time for him to, as Michael Jackson would say, look at the man in the mirror.

If you want to make S.N.A.I.L. a better place, take a look at yourself and make a change! -Michael Jackson

 

[hillracing]

I think that in order to give a particularly low REP score to someone it should require an accompanying complaint. If someone has done something bad enough to warrant a 0 or 1 then surely we want a complaint filed so that the stewards can address the issue.



I think this could also allow us to file complaints anonymously in a way. Rather than filing a small complaint using the current system for say a slight tap you could just give them a REP score of 2. But if I want to give them a 1 I would have to file a complaint.

I do think dropping the lowest and highest is smart. I also feel like using only the last say 50 ratings would be good. That way a user could move past some early troubles they had.

I like this idea better. It makes it so any low REP score is valid as it is verified by the stewards. My biggest objection to the REP system being proposed is that it's a popularity contest not a rating of good racecraft.

The other thing I failed to say about my idea of stewards watching random races is that no matter what the steward saw he would write a report card of sorts for the driver so the driver could get the positive and the negative.

 

[kcheeb]

Hey guys, I think I might actually be able to race this Sunday but I missed the boat for getting the caterham. Could someone please send it to me? Many Thanks.

Hey Bill, did you get a Caterham? If not, I think I've got a spare in the garage I can ship over to you.

 

[zer05ive]

I think that in order to give a particularly low REP score to someone it should require an accompanying complaint. If someone has done something bad enough to warrant a 0 or 1 then surely we want a complaint filed so that the stewards can address the issue.

I agree 100%. There will be a "comments" section next to each drivers name on the REP form that is filled out. Any particularly low ratings will be expected to have some corresponding notes.

I think this could also allow us to file complaints anonymously in a way. Rather than filing a small complaint using the current system for say a slight tap you could just give them a REP score of 2. But if I want to give them a 1 I would have to file a complaint.

Once again, I agree completely. In fact, the entire reason that REP was even conceived in the first place was to be a venue were marginal racecraft could be documented even if there wasn't a technical violation of the OLR.

I do think dropping the lowest and highest is smart. I also feel like using only the last say 50 ratings would be good. That way a user could move past some early troubles they had.

This is definitely something that needs to be discussed further. Do we ask drivers to fill out the REP survey after each Sunday night, or only at the conclusion of each monthly season? Also, should REP's be reset after each season, or simply accumulate over time? Thoughts?

 

[IceWarden]

Sounds like hill expects to be rated low by his fellow racers

 

[hillracing]

Sounds like hill expects to be rated low by his fellow racers

Ummm no. I just think the idea as it's presented needed changing. I really like SNAIL and want to help improve it so I share my ideas. I'm not worried about my REP score at all.

 

[zer05ive]

My biggest objection to the REP system being proposed is that it's a popularity contest not a rating of good racecraft.

I agree with this statement in the context that poor racecraft tends to make one very unpopular among their peers. So in that regard, yes it's a popularity contest and I have no problem with that.

However, if you're claiming that somebody would get a bad REP for reasons completely unrelated to marginal or poor racecraft, then I would whole-heartedly disagree. We aren't high school kids voting on the prom queen or student council president. We're mature sim racers who's goal is to promote an environment where clean and respectful driving is the name of the game.

If anything had the potential to be a popularity contest, it was this and this. The reason I say that was because, just like the high school scenarios above, everyone only got one vote, and the drivers with the most votes won. However, REP is completely different in that regard because everyone is rated and there is no limit on how many good or bad ratings that we'll be allowed to allocate to our fellow drivers. So if a drivers exhibits good racecraft to everyone on the track at all times, I can't imagine a scenario in which he would get a low rating.

And if someone starts giving poor ratings out of spite of without just cause (leaves no comments explaining why), then that person will have a low reputation with me!

 

[tezgm99]

I'll be in the D2 lounge for a bit practicing for the Group C LMP's enduro tonight at Fuji.

Edit; finished now, just wanted to see how badly out of control I was around the place

 

[hillracing]

I agree with this statement in the context that poor racecraft tends to make one very unpopular among their peers. So in that regard, yes it's a popularity contest and I have no problem with that.

However, if you're claiming that somebody would get a bad REP for reasons completely unrelated to marginal or poor racecraft, then I would whole-heartedly disagree. We aren't high school kids voting on the prom queen or student council president. We're mature sim racers who's goal is to promote an environment where clean and respectful driving is the name of the game.

If anything had the potential to be a popularity contest, it was this and this. The reason I say that was because, just like the high school scenarios above, everyone only got one vote, and the drivers with the most votes won. However, REP is completely different in that regard because everyone is rated and there is no limit on how many good or bad ratings that we'll be allowed to allocate to our fellow drivers. So if a drivers exhibits good racecraft to everyone on the track at all times, I can't imagine a scenario in which he would get a low rating.

And if someone starts giving poor ratings out of spite of without just cause (leaves no comments explaining why), then that person will have a low reputation with me!

So what you're saying is that every complaint ever filed with the stewards was valid? I can recall a few where the complainer was the guilty party and was the one penalized. That's all I'm trying to get you to see on this.

 

[jobyone]

This is definitely something that needs to be discussed further. Do we ask drivers to fill out the REP survey after each Sunday night, or only at the conclusion of each monthly season? Also, should REP's be reset after each season, or simply accumulate over time? Thoughts?

I think trying to make this a requirement will not go down well.

I look at like this if you see exhibits of good or bad race craft you let the PTB know. Not for every driver or every race just for the ones that stood out. So I may only give one or two each week. But the will add up. And remember not getting any votes for against you would in fact be saying that no one has issue with your race craft. That is why I like the idea of having a value that represents what we expect of every driver. It is then up to you to prove to others that you are good or bad.

I do not like the idea of them resetting after a season. But I do think we should only use the most recent x number.

Also I feel strongly that if your REP is particularly bad you should not be able to submit REP's. Do we really want people deemed by their peers to have bad race craft telling us who has bad race craft?

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

I had been thinking about what zer05ive is now calling REP and these are my thoughts:

More than anything we want you to have fun while racing in the club. To this end we value good race craft and work hard to reward it. We take time to rank our fellow drivers race craft on a regular basis. Each driver has a score between 1-5. Five is the goal we all strive for. We all start with a score of 3. This score represents a driver who races clean and shows good race craft. Mistakes may happen but they are the exception not the rule at this level. A score above that shows exceptional race craft and respect of fellow drivers. A score below that shows poor race craft and a driver who needs to improve and likely show more respect to their fellow drivers.

The league likes to reward fast clean drivers with rewards. One of the biggest is to be able to choose next weeks combos. In order to be eligible for a prize the driver must be in good standing in the club by having a REP of 3 or more. Below that and you will not be eligible to win the prizes.

The league also likes to discourage bad race craft. To this end if a drivers REP is 2 or less they will no longer be able to score points during the events. At this point the focus of a driver with a REP under 2 should be first and foremost improving their race craft. Wining races and scoring points must come second to improving race craft. If a drivers score drops below 1 they will no longer be able to race in the events. They will be able to attend the practice and any impromptu practice that happens. Their focus at this point must be to show there fellow drivers that they are in fact able and willing to race cleanly and regain the respect of there fellow drivers. Once their score improves they will be allowed to race again.

Anytime three or more members of the club are on track together they can submit a REP to the PTB. In order to submit a score you must be a club member in good standing. This means that your REP must be above 2.

As a guide to how to score your fellow drivers this is the guideline
5 - The driver showed exceptionally clean racing during multiple laps of close racing with you. Passes were clean and total trust could be placed in their actions
4 - The driver showed excellent race craft during some close give and take racing. You may only have been around them for a few sections of the lap but all their actions demonstrated good race craft.
3 - The driver exhibited good race craft while passing or being passed by you. You may not have had much time racing this driver but his driving and behavior illustrated good race craft.
2 - The driver showed lack of good race craft resulting in a collision that effected position on the track or perhaps multiple incidents that did not cause position changes but that could have been avoidable. If position were effected this should be accompanied by a formal complaint.
1 - The driver showed exceptional lack of good race craft resulting in collisions that caused significant loss of position or multiple smaller collisions that caused position changes. These events should be accompanied by a formal complaint.
0 - The driver has taken action that is totally inappropriate whether on track, over chat or in the forums (reporting at this level should include a complaint and evidence or witnesses to the incident)

As always just my $.02

Might be difficult to determine the difference between "good, excellent, and exceptional" racecraft. I was leaning towards rating on "knowledge, ethics, and performance".

1) Driver is familiar with SNAIL OLR and The Good Racecraft Guide.
Strongly Disagree 1-2-3-4-5 Strongly Agree

2) Driver competes in a fair and honest manner.
Strongly Disagree 1-2-3-4-5 Strongly Agree

3) Driver shows respect and patience for the other drivers and their positions on track. Is not likely to attempt aggressive marginal-racecraft or create contact in the attempt to gain positions.
Strongly Disagree 1-2-3-4-5 Strongly Agree

 

[Chiochan]

Is there a mock up of the REP ballot? I think that would help me understand better. I am having a hard time envisioning how we would even execute this idea. I do like where Zero and joby are going with this, and handlebar and joe have the right idea I believe. I do feel that if we are going to prohibit people with a 2 or less REP from prizes, when giving them a score of 2 or less, you need to provide a formal complaint to the stewards. If the complaint is valid, the vote is valid. This takes the unfair rage vote out of play, and makes room for the fair rage vote.

 

[zer05ive]

So what you're saying is that every complaint ever filed with the stewards was valid? I can recall a few where the complainer was the guilty party and was the one penalized. That's all I'm trying to get you to see on this.

Huh? When did I ever say or even suggest that?

That being said, those instances are by far the exception and not the norm. For every complaint that was filed by what was eventually determined to be the guilty party, there are many, many, many more that are legitimate complaints that were filed fairly and accurately. The percentage of invalid complaints is easily covered by the fact that we're dropping everyone's lowest rating.

Like I said before, if a driver finds himself constantly thinking to himself that he's the victim of repeated rage ratings and invalid complaints, it might be time for him to consider the possibility that he's indeed the problem.

 

[hillracing]

Huh? When did I ever say or even suggest that?

You didn't say that exactly but this pretty much implies that:

However, if you're claiming that somebody would get a bad REP for reasons completely unrelated to marginal or poor racecraft, then I would whole-heartedly disagree. We aren't high school kids voting on the prom queen or student council president. We're mature sim racers who's goal is to promote an environment where clean and respectful driving is the name of the game.

I just think having a steward verify low ratings would make sure the driver rating system is fair.

 

[Chiochan]

I just think having a steward verify low ratings would make sure the driver rating system is fair.

I agree.

 

[tezgm99]

^^ as do I. Remember that whenever you lose control and someone was in the immediate vacinity of where it happened (ie; right on your back bumper), is your first thought 'that was all my fault, didn't expect the car to do that' or is it 'what just happened, who did that to me?!'....not everyone views things as they actually occured in the heat of racing remember

 

[OwensRacing]

How about the stewards are only able to change ones rep.


Basically we all get 10 points like a license. Once you lose your license. You don't race in any division. We offer a probation room for these folks to earn points back weekly to get their license reinstated.

This room could be used for new unknown racers to earns license.

Or the stewards can hold a race for those wanting to earns license or get theirs reinstated. Then it's easier to police.

I'll offer up to race in these type of races to see how they do in traffic. The faster guys can throttle back and put drivers into situations.

Once you know the race knows the ropes. They have no excuse to drive rough.

Honestly seems like a lot of work.

The again maybe in D1 we are not seeing the problem others are so it's hard to understand.



Also I'd vote Hill down on rep just because. Just kidding man. You are a solid racer that I love racing with. That is when I can keep up. LoL

 

[tezgm99]

The again maybe in D1 we are not seeing the problem others are so it's hard to understand.

Unless everyone in D1 is doing it so no one notices

 

[OwensRacing]

Unless everyone is doing it so no one notices

I pretty sure I haven't been pushed or ran over in a loooong time. I'd like to think I know clean racing. LoL

 

[zer05ive]

You didn't say that exactly but this pretty much implies that:

Please don't take my comments out of context. I was replying specifically to one single sentence that you made and I even deleted everything else surrounding it so that it was clear as to what I was replying to. Simply put, those comments were in response to your claim that REP would be a popularity contest. I was merely pointing out that any concerns that someone could get a bad REP because they were "unpopular" in the group were unwarranted concerns. Simple as that, end of story. Nothing else was implied, "pretty much" or otherwise.

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

I've watched many D1 races and they race very hard but also extremely cleanly and like gentleman. I am never afraid of what might happen when Owens or Hillracing are behind me. I recall racing in one of the PURE events early 2012 and about to get lapped by Owens. He said stay on your line, I'll get around.

 

[tezgm99]

I just recall there was a time where D1 was known for an infestation of divebombs....sounds like that's been cleaned up which is nice

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

As usual, it's the Pareto Principle and you will find it in every division.

 

[TEX36]

I'll offer up to race in these type of races to see how they do in traffic. The faster guys can throttle back and put drivers into situations.

Once you know the racer knows the ropes. They have no excuse to drive rough.


I remember, when I started out in Half-midgets (we ran twin-2strokers) - my first 2-3 practice sessions - several of the veterans would come out on the tract and do just what Owens suggested. They were all around me, tight, passing, blocking (to make me pass clean), and then on all four sides .... increasing the speed with each lap. A guy either passed or had to keep coming back until "they approved" - then you were cleared to join them on Friday Nights.

That might be a good idea for Div 5 drivers (may I sign up?) to get involved in. We just might see improvement in the Division - myself included.
IMHO

 

[moutonguerrier]

I remember, when I started out in Half-midgets (we ran twin-2strokers) - my first 2-3 practice sessions - several of the veterans would come out on the tract and do just what Owens suggested. They were all around me, tight, passing, blocking (to make me pass clean), and then on all four sides .... increasing the speed with each lap. A guy either passed or had to keep coming back until "they approved" - then you were cleared to join them on Friday Nights.

That might be a good idea for Div 5 drivers (may I sign up?) to get involved in. We just might see improvement in the Division - myself included.
IMHO

I need this!

 

[dangerzone641]

Anyone know when the end of maintanance is suppose to end for psn, i cant sign in

 

[Chiochan]

They say tonight. Whatever that means.

 

[DrKronin]

I remember, when I started out in Half-midgets (we ran twin-2strokers) - my first 2-3 practice sessions - several of the veterans would come out on the tract and do just what Owens suggested. They were all around me, tight, passing, blocking (to make me pass clean), and then on all four sides .... increasing the speed with each lap. A guy either passed or had to keep coming back until "they approved" - then you were cleared to join them on Friday Nights.

That might be a good idea for Div 5 drivers (may I sign up?) to get involved in. We just might see improvement in the Division - myself included.
IMHO

I suggested something similar to this several months ago, although my forum skills aren't quite at the Zer05ive level, so I can't find the post. It might have been just in the steward forum.

Anyway, the point was that we could put on a (monthly?) racecraft clinic for drivers that want help with it. A few drivers with notably good racecraft (perhaps those with the highest REP scores?) could drive in a pack along with the student(s), with one of them evaluating behavior and giving instruction. This could be a low-pressure environment to learn good racecraft -- at least compared to just jumping in on Sundays.