2009 Nissan GT-R - Zero tolerance for asshattery

[Dave A]

Oh, and you can prove that no one cares about them or holds them in a higher regard than a Lada? I'd love to see how you can prove such a thing. Have you talked to the rest of the world about the Corvette? Can you prove people all over talk about the 911? I know folks in Europe who love to see the Corvettes run next to the Astons at LeMans, and folks who easily would like to see Carsport Holland continue to run successfully.

You know the answer to that, I can't get a poll of all the people in Europe, but I can gauge from the cars poplurity from my experience. The Corvette is simply not a well known or cared about enough car over here. I can gauge that from my day to day experience in life and from the majoirty of my travels which have been in and around Europe. I'm not saying the Corvette isn't a capable car for it's money, you seem to be heavilly on the defensive here almost as though I'm insulting your mother. I'm simply stating that in Europe the Corvette doesn't really have any following worth mentioning. Pitiful sales figures back this up. It's not that it's a crap car, it just isn't doing it for us.

I've been all over Europe and I've never seen a Corvette outside a showroom race track or car show except for an American guy who used to live near me who owned a C4 and I saw one in France once. The proof is in the sales and not just in the UK but across Europe. In America I've heared countless members on here who talk about seeing Corvettes daily, well here in the UK you might see one annually. At the motorshow.

If the Corvette was not held in a higher regard than a Lada anyways, then why are there 2 teams in the FIA GT3, & 4 teams in the FIA GT running a Corvette? OBVIOUSLY, there are more than a few people who care for them if there are 6 teams running them in a European Motorsport with their own set of fans.

So a race team is proof of a cars popularity now is it. I'd say that's more to do with a cars capability on the track.

Because you said they are only National icons in America. Just because they are more well-liked in America than the world should have no affect on them being performance icons.

An icon is something that is important to you, the Corvette is a good performance car, but over here it isn't an icon. Not just any fast car is a global icon simply because it's fast and/or good value for money. It has to be important to the market it's in to be an icon in that market. The 911 is an icon over here, Aston Martins are iconic, the Vette isn't, it's histry and it's significance has little do with us.

You didn't prove what you just typed.

You proved my point that the Viper & Corvette don't do well because they're not worth their price over there, not because no one has any interest in them.

No I said the Viper is over priced, the Corvette is well priced it still has poor sales figures in Europe.
So, that immediately means a Euro magazine shouldn't waste the time to compare the Z06 to the GT-R on a performance level?

I guess Chevrolet is just wasting time tuning the car at the 'Ring then since no one is actually going to drive it there.

Now your being silly, honing a cars capability on a track direcltly affects it's abilitiy wherever your driving it. the Ring is a good benchmark track, the fact that people won't be driving there barring the odd few doesn't mean it's futile honing the cars ability on a track. Honing it's aiblity there has a direct effect on it's ability elsewhere, you know that.

Once again I am not calling the Covettes ability into question I am simply stating the obvious which is that outside of America it doesn't have much of a following. Sales figures back that up more than enough, if it was any different the Cheveolet would be selling thousands in places like here, Europe, they arn't.

 

[Rotary Junkie]

I don't THINK it's been posted, and if it has, tell me, but...

Watch the launch. Note that the car has the 180kph limiter on.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Very nice!

 

[niky]

@YSSMAN: It's just that... yes, performance-wise and price-wise, it might be close, and I think, in the end, there might be a possibility of the ZR1 being faster on the race track...

But the difference is in terms of market positioning. These two cars stretch the definition of "supercar" into an area of lower price that doesn't sit well with some euro-snobs, but they do it from different angles. The Corvette appeals to Corvette people, period. They might (and do) consider a Viper, or a Shelby GT500... but these people are looking for "muscle". The Corvette, though, is shortchanged by that definition. It's a sportscar, plain and simple. It's low-slung, lightweight, and powerful. But true to its roots, it's built with 0-60 and 1320 times in mind.

The GT-R is a sport-tourer, actually, a gran turismo that just happens to kick butt. This is where the M5 is coming from, or the current Porsche 911 Turbo. Sportscars meant to cross continents and still do well on track. Yeah, some of these cars are so stiffly sprung that you could paralyze yourself attempting to do a cross-country trip in them, but this is what they're supposed to do. As such, they have posh accoutrements... a high grade of interior materials and a lot of luxury. Stuff that your Viper or Corvette are lacking.

It's not like you can do an Escalade... clad everything in leather and expect people to equate it with a Mercedes (and the Caddy just isn't)... but that doesn't make them bad cars per se... just in a different market segment.

It's like the old (E46) M3 versus (pre-X) Evo argument. Yes, the Evo is faster, and likely a better performance bargain, but the M3 is just in a different market segment, and you can't compare them directly. Even if they were nearly the same price (which they weren't), people aren't going to be cross-shopping between the two.

It's only fanatics like us (no checkbooks, but lots of dreams) who will do that. But for the 40-something or 50-something male actually buying these beasts, he already knows what he wants, and he's not likely to cross-shop these two groups.

Unless he's very rich, in which case, he'll probably have one of each of the above, and maybe two of the others...

 

[McLaren]

You know the answer to that, I can't get a poll of all the people in Europe, but I can gauge from the cars poplurity from my experience. The Corvette is simply not a well known or cared about enough car over here. I can gauge that from my day to day experience in life and from the majoirty of my travels which have been in and around Europe. I'm not saying the Corvette isn't a capable car for it's money, you seem to be heavilly on the defensive here almost as though I'm insulting your mother. I'm simply stating that in Europe the Corvette doesn't really have any following worth mentioning. Pitiful sales figures back this up. It's not that it's a crap car, it just isn't doing it for us.

I've been all over Europe and I've never seen a Corvette outside a showroom race track or car show except for an American guy who used to live near me who owned a C4 and I saw one in France once. The proof is in the sales and not just in the UK but across Europe. In America I've heared countless members on here who talk about seeing Corvettes daily, well here in the UK you might see one annually. At the motorshow.

So because you've never seen one immediately means the car is about as cool as a Lada? I can't take that as fact. Again, maybe it's due to the fact that the price of a 'Vette in Europe just isn't worth it when the car's main competitors are not only in their home countries, but thousands of dollars cheaper & more suited for Europe?

So a race team is proof of a cars popularity now is it. I'd say that's more to do with a cars capability on the track.

Didn't say that. No, having the 6 teams in a European motorsport using the Corvette obviously means this statement is false.

Remember this?

The fact that outside of American very few people know about them, care about them or hold then in any regard higher than that of a Lada Riva.

Apparently, more than a few do.

An icon is something that is important to you, the Corvette is a good performance car, but over here it isn't an icon. Not just any fast car is a global icon simply because it's fast and/or good value for money. It has to be important to the market it's in to be an icon in that market. The 911 is an icon over here, Aston Martins are iconic, the Vette isn't, it's histry and it's significance has little do with us.

Your definition is starting to lack logic.

Because the 'Vette isn't iconic over in Europe, it can't be a performance icon?
You might as well start saying that only European cars can be performance icons since there's really never been an American car that sold well in Europe even though it's not designed to.

So, let me ask you this. Should I classify cars like the Civic Type R to be non-iconic, then? The car isn't sold here, & not many folks here will care because all they'll see is Civic and think crap. The only folks who do know what it is are just boy racers, and even many of them don't actually know a technical thing about it. Should I suddenly disregard the car as a Performance icon for FWD cars even though it is a stupidly fast little car?

I'm not going to.

No I said the Viper is over priced, the Corvette is well priced it still has poor sales figures in Europe.
So, that immediately means a Euro magazine shouldn't waste the time to compare the Z06 to the GT-R on a performance level?

Again, you missed what I typed. I specifically said these cars don't sell well in Europe because they're not worth their price over the pond, esp. when the used sell for more than the new.

All the features you listed though (such as the Viper's lack of sense in Europe, the Corvette's fuel efficiency, & ride), are the reasons I didn't list for the car being too expensive for what you're getting. I agree with you. They don't sell well in Europe. However, I do not believe only a few folks like them. I'm positive many wouldn't mind seeing 1 of the 2 fly by at a track meet in Europe.

Now your being silly, honing a cars capability on a track direcltly affects it's abilitiy wherever your driving it. the Ring is a good benchmark track, the fact that people won't be driving there barring the odd few doesn't mean it's futile honing the cars ability on a track. Honing it's aiblity there has a direct effect on it's ability elsewhere, you know that.

So, why hone at the 'Ring? Since nobody will obviously want to drive a Corvette there or anywhere else in Europe, why? Why not just hone the car at US tracks since apparently, we are the only ones who hold it in higher regard than Ladas. Honing it at Laguna Seca should be fine since it's one of the more difficult tracks in the US, which will obviously be the only tracks the Corvette will actually see from its customers.

Once again I am not calling the Covettes ability into question I am simply stating the obvious which is that outside of America it doesn't have much of a following. Sales figures back that up more than enough, if it was any different the Cheveolet would be selling thousands in places like here, Europe, they arn't.

Sales figure don't back that up. Sales figures in Europe show it's overpriced, not that there aren't folks who don't follow it.

I think paying the extra hundred thousands just to have an aluminum & carbon fibre Veyron, or $1 million more than for a re-bodied Murcielago is ridiculously overpriced. Does this suddenly mean no one is going to follow these cars? Of course not.

And mind you that before you compare the sales figures of these 2 cars, it has not been proven that either car has actually sold out as they claim. Lamborghini has actually lost 4 potential owners, and there are many dealerships already advertising a possible sell.

 

[Dave A]

So because you've never seen one immediately means the car is about as cool as a Lada? I can't take that as fact. Again, maybe it's due to the fact that the price of a 'Vette in Europe just isn't worth it when the car's main competitors are not only in their home countries, but thousands of dollars cheaper & more suited for Europe?

Only the Vette ISN'T overpriced only the Viper, the Vette is competetively priced compared to similar cars in our market. I don't know how many different ways I can put this to you, you don't live here, you have no idea what the general consensus is, to argue the toss against someone who does seems odd to me, I'm not saying this to wind you up. No I can't prove it, since I can't take a poll of everyone in Europe, but the fact remains that the Vette doesn't sell much here despite being competetively priced. The fact remains that you don't see them on the roads often if at all, the fact remains that in 99% of car related discussions the Vette is not likely to be mentioned.

Your definition is starting to lack logic.

Because the 'Vette isn't iconic over in Europe, it can't be a performance icon?
You might as well start saying that only European cars can be performance icons since there's really never been an American car that sold well in Europe even though it's not designed to.

No the logical thing is that to be a global icon you have to be an icon in countries around the world not just America. In Europe the Vette is NOT a performance icon, it's a performance car, but not an icon. We have zero reason to look at the car as an icon maybe one day we'll warm to it and it'll start to sell and we'll start taking more notice and caring about it a bit more but as it stands we have zero reason to think the car is iconic in relation to us. The 911 is an icon, the McLaren F1 is an icon the Mustang I'd say is more of an icon here than the Vette since people in general like that car and know instantly what one is. The Vette is a niche car over here as opposed to a mainstream sportscar like the US, it's a car that people who haven't played Gran Turismo or a for the most part arn't really aware of. I really don't see what is so hard to understand here, again I am not attacking the Vette, I like the C6 I think it's a capable car for a good price. I wouldn't buy one, but I like them, but the cars not iconic to me, it's not something I'd have put on my bedroom wall as a kid. I think the first time I'd ever seen a Corvette and noticed was in Gran Turismo.

So, let me ask you this. Should I classify cars like the Civic Type R to be non-iconic, then? The car isn't sold here, & not many folks here will care because all they'll see is Civic and think crap.

That depends on the Civic Type-R's reception in America, how does the general public there view it. If the consensus is a "don't care" one, then no in the US the Civic Type-R isn't an icon, it's an iconsomewhere, but not in the US.

Again, you missed what I typed. I specifically said these cars don't sell well in Europe because they're not worth their price over the pond, esp. when the used sell for more than the new.

All the features you listed though (such as the Viper's lack of sense in Europe, the Corvette's fuel efficiency, & ride), are the reasons I didn't list for the car being too expensive for what you're getting. I agree with you. They don't sell well in Europe. However, I do not believe only a few folks like them. I'm positive many wouldn't mind seeing 1 of the 2 fly by at a track meet in Europe.

Maybe saying we hate them is too harsh now, though that has certainly been true especially about Vettes not too long ago. We stereotyped them typical as big engined, crap turing, American rubbish not that long ago. The C6 is the first Vette to really challenge that view for most people. It's not all that different to certain sterotypes I've heared of some of ours. Replace hate with indifference, sure if I saw a Vette I'd watch it go past, I'd admire it's egine noise, but once its gone I won't be thinking "I'd love one of them" I'm still going to be lusting over that Grififth, Cerbera or Tuscan that I'll probably never own but wou;d love to.

So, why hone at the 'Ring? Since nobody will obviously want to drive a Corvette there or anywhere else in Europe, why? Why not just hone the car at US tracks since apparently, we are the only ones who hold it in higher regard than Ladas. Honing it at Laguna Seca should be fine since it's one of the more difficult tracks in the US, which will obviously be the only tracks the Corvette will actually see from its customers.

Why not, it's been fatantastic for them form a marketing and media coverage perspective. They set an amaxzing lap time there in the Z06, it was a good move regardless of how many buyers will actually drive it there.

Sales figure don't back that up. Sales figures in Europe show it's overpriced, not that there aren't folks who don't follow it.

I think paying the extra hundred thousands just to have an aluminum & carbon fibre Veyron, or $1 million more than for a re-bodied Murcielago is ridiculously overpriced. Does this suddenly mean no one is going to follow these cars? Of course not.

On the Veyron and Reventon part people who have the money will buy it if they like it. People arn't buying the Vette, and once again, no it isn't overpriced for our market. Yes if you convert $'s to £'s it's twice what you pay, but it's not twice the price of a similar car over here.

 

[YSSMAN]

@YSSMAN: It's just that... yes, performance-wise and price-wise, it might be close, and I think, in the end, there might be a possibility of the ZR1 being faster on the race track...

We'd be looking at the $70K, 505-BHP Z06. Definitely not the $100K, 620 BHP ZR1.

It's a sportscar, plain and simple. It's low-slung, lightweight, and powerful. But true to its roots, it's built with 0-60 and 1320 times in mind.

Uh, what? Not since the C5 generation has it been a "muscle car." GM has been developing this car as "America's Sports Car," testing and proving its capability around the world.

The GT-R is a sport-tourer, actually, a gran turismo that just happens to kick butt. This is where the M5 is coming from, or the current Porsche 911 Turbo.

Understandable, and unfortunately GM dumped their platform for doing so (the Holden Monaro). The Camaro and the CTS coupe will pick that up, I believe, but they aren't quite the same thing in the end...

As such, they have posh accoutrements... a high grade of interior materials and a lot of luxury. Stuff that your Viper or Corvette are lacking.

I do have to ask, have you actually been in a Corvette? I find the interior to be pretty decent, personally speaking. Furthermore, have you been in the new optional interior they have made available for the car? The materials all are top-notch, even if the dashboard still feels kinda cheap. Hey, even Mercedes has a problem with that these days...

It's only fanatics like us (no checkbooks, but lots of dreams) who will do that. But for the 40-something or 50-something male actually buying these beasts, he already knows what he wants, and he's not likely to cross-shop these two groups.

In the Americas they will, I can tell you that. They're different types of cars, sure, but the Corvette gets compared to absolutely everything. Its the
car you buy when you "make it" here, not a Porsche or a Nissan. Maybe that will change with the Playstation generation entering the buying market, but until the Baby-Boomers are dead, this is going to remain Corvette country.

And personally speaking, no matter how intriguing the GT-R may be, I'm still going to buy a 911 or a Corvette first. They just suit me better...

 

[skylineGTR_guy]

my brother just sold a GTR for $101,472.....to an old lady and her husband....

 

[McLaren]

Only the Vette ISN'T overpriced only the Viper, the Vette is competetively priced compared to similar cars in our market. I don't know how many different ways I can put this to you, you don't live here, you have no idea what the general consensus is, to argue the toss against someone who does seems odd to me, I'm not saying this to wind you up. No I can't prove it, since I can't take a poll of everyone in Europe, but the fact remains that the Vette doesn't sell much here despite being competetively priced. The fact remains that you don't see them on the roads often if at all, the fact remains that in 99% of car related discussions the Vette is not likely to be mentioned.

First off, I'm referring to the Z06. Sorry, if I didn't mention that.

Second off, who are you to say I can not say talk about the European market just because I don't live there? I find it somewhat ironic you give me this total bull that I can't talk about the market there because I don't live there, yet you can suddenly speak for everyone in Europe.

Until you can actually prove no one cares about the Corvette in Europe, I'm going to stop responding to this whole, "The Corvette is not liked here, and only a few folks want one". I'm willing to bet there's many who'd want a Z06, but choose other options because the price of a Z06 in Europe is obviously well over $100,000 if that's the going price for a used one. And unless the Z06s in Europe are getting something we Americans aren't, I don't see the car worth anywhere near $100,000 when a car like the GT3 is just a couple thousands more, give or take.

No the logical thing is that to be a global icon you have to be an icon in countries around the world not just America. In Europe the Vette is NOT a performance icon, it's a performance car, but not an icon.

And what countries would these be? Russia, Japan, China, America, Canada, most of Europe, & the southern countries of Africa because we are the only ones who can afford a 911?

I'm not going to agree for a second the Corvette Z06 isn't a performance icon. The only reason you're saying it isn't is because of its price which is what turns Europeans away. And to me, a global performance icon has no relevance to how much it goes for around the world. In my definition, a performance icon becomes one based on its performance, & I'll be damned if the Corvette Z06 has not become one.

We have zero reason to look at the car as an icon maybe one day we'll warm to it and it'll start to sell and we'll start taking more notice and caring about it a bit more but as it stands we have zero reason to think the car is iconic in relation to us.

So, it can't be an icon because you (Yes, you. Stop talking for the rest of Europe) don't see that way? What about the actual performance of the car, always running near the top its game?

That depends on the Civic Type-R's reception in America, how does the general public there view it. If the consensus is a "don't care" one, then no in the US the Civic Type-R isn't an icon, it's an iconsomewhere, but not in the US.

Answer my question. If Americans do not think the Type R is a special car, does it suddenly not qualify as a performance icon despite setting the benchmark for FWD?

Why not, it's been fatantastic for them form a marketing and media coverage perspective. They set an amaxzing lap time there in the Z06, it was a good move regardless of how many buyers will actually drive it there.

That's not my point. Why test at the 'Ring to set the car up for any kind of track condition, when 99% of the Z06's buyers will only be using the car here? Why not test on 2-3 different tracks here? It's not like our raceways are that different from each other excluding the major ones which is what I would project the Z06 to be tested on.

On the Veyron and Reventon part people who have the money will buy it if they like it. People arn't buying the Vette, and once again, no it isn't overpriced for our market. Yes if you convert $'s to £'s it's twice what you pay, but it's not twice the price of a similar car over here.

A Corvette Z06 (have you gotten yet I'm talking about the Z06) is over $100,000 new in Europe. For what you're getting compared to other European cars such as a M3, or big V8 Mercedes, it doesn't look very tempting. Perhaps if it was lowered, maybe.

 

[Div is back]

Where's the Z06? It's irrelevant in a worldwide competition. The only placed where it will go up against the GTR is in the states, nowhere else will it be mentioned.

edit : this damn embed thing won't work, check the link http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2190627#post2190627

 

[Dave A]

First off, I'm referring to the Z06. Sorry, if I didn't mention that.

Second off, who are you to say I can not say talk about the European market just because I don't live there? I find it somewhat ironic you give me this total bull that I can't talk about the market there because I don't live there, yet you can suddenly speak for everyone in Europe.

I never said I did speak for everyone in Europe, I'm talking about a general consensus and yes I can see the general consensus and every country in Europe I've been to has reflected this with regards to Aemrican sportscars in general not just the Vette, though the Mustang gets a good reception. Be it France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Norway or Belgium, I've never met a Corvette fantatic in any of thoes places.

I've never met or seen anyone who's owned a Corvette or who's commented on what good cars they are on my travels. The only Corvette owner I've ever met was American. I've seen plenty of people talk about Porsches, Ferrari's, Aston Martin's. And regarding the Z06, no it isn't over priced, in fact in terms of bang for your buck the Z06 is better priced than the regular C6, it's an immense bargain on paper. Unfortunately for GM it still doesn't sell and it got absolutely panned by the press in the magazines, on the TV and in the papers for it's "awfull" ride quality on the road.

Until you can actually prove no one cares about the Corvette in Europe, I'm going to stop responding to this whole, "The Corvette is not liked here, and only a few folks want one". I'm willing to bet there's many who'd want a Z06, but choose other options because the price of a Z06 in Europe is obviously well over $100,000 if that's the going price for a used one. And unless the Z06s in Europe are getting something we Americans aren't, I don't see the car worth anywhere near $100,000 when a car like the GT3 is just a couple thousands more, give or take.

American values equate to our market all that well, the standard C6 ranges from £45k- £51k and yes it's almost double that for a rough price in US dollars. However a TVR Tuscan is between £40k and £52k, a TVR Sagaris is £50k-£55k. The Noble M12 GTO is £50 the M400 is £56k. The Z06 is £59k, the 911 GT3 is £74k. That's a £15k or $30k difference in favour of the Z06. Yet the GT3 sales much more. The entry level 911 (the Carrera coupe -325bhp) is £60k and the GT2 is £126k. The M3 is £52k and the Mecedes CLK AMG55 is £66k. The Maserati Gransport is £66k, the Jaguar XKR coupe is £60 and the cabriolet is £66k. The Z06 is competetively priced.

You prove what makes the Corvette an icon in the US? You can't prove it, you'll just say something along the lines of look at the sales figures or the popularity. Well I can't see the popularity for myself, so would it be wise of me to assume I know what the cars popularity is in the US? No it wouldn't, obviousely not, so why are you questioning the point I'm making here. I would understand if you saw Europeans heralding the Vettes capabilities and desirability all over the web liek you do Americans but you don't, because we simply don't view it the same as you guys. You can't prove it is an icon in the US if I can't prove it's not over here. Are you not able to generalise from personal experiece that the Corvette is an icon? Well I'm doing the same, only over here there's no big media blitz about how great the car is, there's no people waiting anxiousely for news about the next model, they arn't a monthly sight let alone daily. The Corvette is jsut another car that doesn't sell much.

And what countries would these be? Russia, Japan, China, America, Canada, most of Europe, & the southern countries of Africa because we are the only ones who can afford a 911?

I was talking about Europe, the 911 is a massive success over here. I can say that with the same confidence that you can say the Corvette is an icon in America.

I'm not going to agree for a second the Corvette Z06 isn't a performance icon. The only reason you're saying it isn't is because of its price which is what turns Europeans away. And to me, a global performance icon has no relevance to how much it goes for around the world. In my definition, a performance icon becomes one based on its performance, & I'll be damned if the Corvette Z06 has not become one.

That's where your definition of an icon is skewed to mine, I'll describe why below.

So, it can't be an icon because you (Yes, you. Stop talking for the rest of Europe) don't see that way? What about the actual performance of the car, always running near the top its game?

The performance on it's own is irrelevent. Something isn't iconic just because it's good, it's iconic because it means something special, over here the COrvette doesn't. Without it meaning something to us it just can't be an icon. We don't get Corvette posters with every other issue of TopGear or Evo, we don't see them every day, we for the most part don't support them in races they're simply the opposition for the Astons, Ferrari's, Maseratis and co. As much as I freely agree that the C6 is a good car there is nothing in me that makes me think "hey, if I had the money I might want one of thoes" I'd rather the TVR even if it did cost more to run and repair, the TVR means something to me, the Vette doesn't.

Answer my question. If Americans do not think the Type R is a special car, does it suddenly not qualify as a performance icon despite setting the benchmark for FWD?

No tin the US no, like I said earlier, to be an icon has to be something special. Bear in mind I'm not saying the Type_R isn't an icon in the US, I don't know, but if the case is that 99% of the population don't give a rats about it, then no, in the US it can't be an icon. It is in other places, but not there, like the Corvette here.

That's not my point. Why test at the 'Ring to set the car up for any kind of track condition, when 99% of the Z06's buyers will only be using the car here? Why not test on 2-3 different tracks here? It's not like our raceways are that different from each other excluding the major ones which is what I would project the Z06 to be tested on.

One word, marketing. That is exactley the point, getting noticed at the Ring got people talking, it got people to notice that Chevy were really trying this time. The Z06 still got panned by the press but magazines and what not took an interest in it's development at the Ring. We wouldn't have got any of that if it was done all in America. Also that lap time, what a lap, and it got deserved praise. Still didn't ultimately make the car a massive sales success, but who knows, things like that could over time start to snowball the Corvettes popularity over here. The European market isn't dead to the Corvette, it just needs to get people to care somehow. It's an American car for American people, not really built around principals that make it instantly likable here.

A Corvette Z06 (have you gotten yet I'm talking about the Z06) is over $100,000 new in Europe. For what you're getting compared to other European cars such as a M3, or big V8 Mercedes, it doesn't look very tempting. Perhaps if it was lowered, maybe.

The Z06 is above the M3 in terms of performance, the regular C6 is more M3 territory. The Z06 is GT3 and F430 territory, it's cheapest of it's immediate rivals but it outsells none.

 

[Tornado]

On the Corvette vs. World Standard argument: To declare the Corvette is iconic worldwide is laughable. The Corvette wasn't even a sports car for roughly 1/3rd (20 years) of its life. And it wasn't known in Europe at all (other than brief periods in the 60s) until the early 1990s, and wasn't even sold there until the C5 (I believe). The Porsche 911 has three huge advantages over it in that it has always been a sports car since its introduction, it has pretty much destroyed most contenders in "best car ever" type awards, and it has always been for sale in Europe. The Porsche 911 is an iconic car, period, no matter where you live. The only places people think the Corvette is an icon of any sort is in America. The recognition it gets from magazines and the like alone in Europe compared to here should be enough to tell you that.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Like it or not, these cars are part of the fabric of the American automotive landscape. I'm going to talk about the Corvette, and if you don't like it, thats too damn bad. Find me another car that costs $70K or less and can run to 60 in 3.7 seconds (or less) and tops out at 200 MPH. One with a warranty and serviceable at thousands of dealers nationwide...

Hmm?

Its not about the Corvette being a GM product either. Note that I talk about the SRT-10 in this thread just as often. Hell, I still push for the 911 as well. There is plenty of room for the GT-R in this market, and I welcome the competition. I'm very interested in the car, seeing it in person hopefully sometime in the near-future. It wouldn't be on my list of things to buy, those dollars go towards a Carrera or Z51 first. But hey, God forbid someone still likes the "establishment" cars...

I never said the Vette is in any way a bad car; I feel quite the opposite. But you're proving my point with the "too damn bad" comment. Some people are going to like the GT-R, and they're going to find it their personal best bet in this price range. Being consistently told their wrong for their preference because it isn't a Vette is just as annoying as people questioning your choice. I know if (when) the thread for the C7 shows up, if people question its claims there will be more than a handful of people willing to jump down their throats. I'm simply questioning the double-standard.

The Vette is only "establishment" here, and looking anywhere else, the 911 wins so many damned comparisons because it's the ultimate all-rounder. The Vette isn't. While I haven't sat in a C6.5 yet (I actually turned down the opportunity to head to the current Canadian Autoshow to work, doh!), I was never impressed with the C6's interior, and going by the pictures of the GT-R, and the fact an Infiniti's interior already felt on par with the Vette's, I think I'd end up preferring the Nissan's. Of course, I need to see one of the new cars, like I said. As for the "making it" comment, I always thought it was a Porsche? The flip-side of the Vette being as cheap as it is, is that provided someone has a decent income, it's really not that hard to get a hold of one. It hovers just below the line of "reasonably attainable", and above that line is "made it", at least to me. I never see a 911 at a shady used car lot, for an example .

I'll stick with the basic sentiment I've read in here: bring on the mega-tests! GT-R, 911T, Z06, SRT-10, everything!

 

[YSSMAN]

Hey, no hard feelings... I know I get my panties in a bunch about the car too frequently. But I better understand your origional point, so thats all that matters!

 

[niky]

RE: New Corvette interior... sadly, no, but previous Corvettes, while well-appointed just didn't feel as special inside as concurrent Germans. I'll take your word for it that it's well-appointed... but I'll have to see for myself.

RE: Muscle-car... what I meant is that the Corvette espouses American Values... I said muscle... not "muscle car". What I mean is that the American fanatic values power and supreme quarter-mile times and standing-mile times. Things for which the Corvette is optimized for. I'm not saying these cars can't handle, but many people who buy these things buy them for the sheer power. Which is how my uncle ended up with a Viper. At the time, there was no Vette faster than the Viper.

 

[YSSMAN]

Funny enough, the guy I know best who has a Corvette bought it because it had been 40 years since he had his last one, and given that the C6 was coming out, and they offered an orange color (his first Corvette, a '66 was orange)... He had to have it.

Sadly, he picked the wrong combo packages: MagnaRide suspension, T56, SatNav, convertible with the chrome Z51-style wheels.

Not a bad Corvette, just not "my style."

 

[skylineGTR_guy]

GT3 vs gtr vs m3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjwJl4t-DF8

 

[Div is back]

Posted the link.
Let's face it, if the Z06 was a world wide performance icon, why would Nissan have marketed the GTR as a 911TT killer and not a Z06 killer?

 

[Joey D]

Posted the link.
Let's face it, if the Z06 was a world wide performance icon, why would Nissan have marketed the GTR as a 911TT killer and not a Z06 killer?

Because a 911TT is more of a world renowned car?

 

[CMe]

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=102914
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lPZT6BfiIg

GT-R on Fith Gear

 

[Div is back]

Because a 911TT is more of a world renowned car?

10 points for you!

 

[Joey D]

It doesn't detract from the Z06 being an awesome car though. If you lived in Tokyo what would make more sense? Going after a car that isn't sold there or one that is.

 

[YSSMAN]

Let's face it, if the Z06 was a world wide performance icon, why would Nissan have marketed the GTR as a 911TT killer and not a Z06 killer?

And if the Corvette wasn't an American (which includes Canada and Mexico and the rest of the lot) icon, why would our magazines run covers like this?

 

[Div is back]

Where did I say it was not an American icon? It obviously is, it simply has little to no world wide recognition which is why there is no point for world wide magasines to face it up with the Z06.

It doesn't detract from the Z06 being an awesome car though. If you lived in Tokyo what would make more sense? Going after a car that isn't sold there or one that is.

It is a great performer and an awesome car.

 

[niky]

GT3 vs gtr vs m3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjwJl4t-DF8

Interesting... a bit of a cop-out, yes, saying that the Nissan GT-R is just about dead-even with the GT3 (subjectively), but I guess that's about as far as you can go... It's no surprise the GT3 is more communicative... what's shocking is that it's not as fast as the GT-R (at least in that tester's hands) around a racetrack... Pilot Sport Cups perhaps not as fond of the cold as the RE070s?

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

according to a Japanese magazine a Nissan GT-R SUV could be on the cards, slotting neatly into the Porsche Cayenne Turbo category.

Having heard about a possible GT-R saloon recently we are now eagerly anticipating the snowmobile version for Eskimo hoons.

Japan’s Best Car Magazine has published some renderings of what it might look like and reports the off-roader would use the same 473bhp powerplant as found in the coupe.

Speculation says Nissan would be going for the Cayenne in the same way that it has the 911 Turbo with the GT-R.

We can’t help thinking that GT-R SUVs weaving through Chelsea is about as likely as a Ferrari off-roader on the school run.

http://www.auto-otaku.com/home/2008/02/r35-gt-r-based.html

 

[Leonidae]

old news for me. it's mere speculation.. but if it's not, it'll probably end up being Infiniti.

 

[Jim Prower]

and it would kind of make the GT-R less special. Besides, when was the Cayenne any sort of Benchmark? Isn't that the vehicle most lauded by Porsche enthusiasts?

 

[Leonidae]

nope. I believe that the incoming Panamera is trying to steal that title.

 

[forza2.0]

Blowdog who also owns this GT3 and has owned ferraris and the R34 GTR Nurb in the past has finally got his GTR.

We will finally get some unbiased views on how both cars differe on and off the track, how they are for everyday life, and how it compares to his old R34 GTR Nurb.