2011 Chinese Grand Prix

[Akmuq]

Yeah I see where you're coming from, but I wouldn't use my language( craic, well boi, lots of swears) on here either. That's just the way everyone I know speaks. Strange.

 

[BlacqueJacques]

:tup:What a great race in China; lots of action and varying tyre strategies 👍

Fantastic drive Mark Webber 👍

I do not think the next race will be a turkey either

 

[Akmuq]

I do not think the next race will be a turkey either

What?

 

[BlacqueJacques]

What?

Its a pun

Even though the next race is in Turkey, I do not think the race will be a turkey (a disappointment in other words )

 

[Famine]

Exactly,the whole issue is mainly FIA fault,since the DRS activation zone is managed by them is logical to think that deactivation of the device is also manage by them,system glitches happens all the time,and I don't think that there is much down to it,is just a systematic error outside from human error,unless its FIA management error but I don't think that it is the case.

Besides is nothing serious or important as some other events in the race,like the times when Perez hit other cars,which I consider quite relevant,besides Alonso is doing quite badly this season,so this event shouldn't get the importance that it deserves.

Watching the in-car footage, the driver has to activate the DRS by pressing a button on the wheel.

FIA fault for allowing it to open in the wrong place or not, that flap doesn't come open unless the driver presses the button. Whether the driver broke the rules or not is irrelevant at that point - the intention was to break the rules.


And to juxtapose that, I don't believe Massa requires any attention for crossing the pit exit line as he stayed pit-side of the white line which demarcates the track.

 

[Akmuq]

Turkey was good last year. Don't think it will be worse, just better. With it's straight that goes uphill for drafting and then downhill for more braking. Add the DRS, KERS and the Pirellis and there will be tins of overtaking. And there is turn 8.
I think Maclaren will have the upper hand on Red Bull here, with Ferrari not getting a win until Monaco. I caaaaaaaaaan't waaaaaaaaaaaaait.

 

[orimarc]

Even if Catalunya is disappointing, we've still had great races in Malaysia and Shanghai, and hopefully more to come. One off race won't spoil the season.

Well, if the FIA decides to let use the DRS on the whole main straight, I think Catalunya should give us lots of overtaking.

 

[Ardius]

Watching the in-car footage, the driver has to activate the DRS by pressing a button on the wheel.

FIA fault for allowing it to open in the wrong place or not, that flap doesn't come open unless the driver presses the button. Whether the driver broke the rules or not is irrelevant at that point - the intention was to break the rules.


And to juxtapose that, I don't believe Massa requires any attention for crossing the pit exit line as he stayed pit-side of the white line which demarcates the track.

As far as I understand the explanation, Alonso pressed the button to activate the DRS as normal in the zone but the DRS did not open correctly until 300m before the corner, therefore leaving some un-used DRS activation time when he came off the brakes.
However, I remember hearing/reading that the Ferrari DRS is actually activated by pedal in the car. I've also read that teams have the option of having the drivers simply press a button once to activate it or have the driver constantly hold down the button/pedal for however long they want the DRS.

We also don't know how the DRS actually works as far as programming and operation during the race. It may be that the drivers don't actually press anything and the activation is automatic. We also don't know how the programming of the FIA-side works either, clearly there is a major flaw with how it determines the "end" of the DRS zone if it still gives the driver un-used DRS like in this situation...rather suggests its based on a distance limit assuming its activated in the right place rather than in special relation to the track location. (probably so race control can easily change the location of the zone if they want).

We certainly are not in much of a position to go "Yeah they clearly cheated", we don't have many facts here beyond the wing clearly opening in the wrong place. Can you really back up saying they intended to break the rules? From the evidence I have seen available, I don't think you can.

 

[The Outlaw]

As far as I understand the explanation, Alonso pressed the button to activate the DRS as normal in the zone but the DRS did not open correctly until 300m before the corner, therefore leaving some un-used DRS activation time when he came off the brakes.
However, I remember hearing/reading that the Ferrari DRS is actually activated by pedal in the car. I've also read that teams have the option of having the drivers simply press a button once to activate it or have the driver constantly hold down the button/pedal for however long they want the DRS.

We also don't know how the DRS actually works as far as programming and operation during the race. It may be that the drivers don't actually press anything and the activation is automatic. We also don't know how the programming of the FIA-side works either, clearly there is a major flaw with how it determines the "end" of the DRS zone if it still gives the driver un-used DRS like in this situation...rather suggests its based on a distance limit assuming its activated in the right place rather than in special relation to the track location. (probably so race control can easily change the location of the zone if they want).

We certainly are not in much of a position to go "Yeah they clearly cheated", we don't have many facts here beyond the wing clearly opening in the wrong place. Can you really back up saying they intended to break the rules? From the evidence I have seen available, I don't think you can.

👍

 

[Shaggy Alonso]

Nice article by Mark Hughes on Massa's sudden turn around in form (small error in that he did finish ahead of Alonso at Malaysia):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/formula_one/13135902.stm

I have to say, I watch the McLaren drivers more closely than the Ferrari pairing but even I had noticed a step-change in Massa since Malaysia. It seemed like the first time in so long since he actually moved forward in a race and looked like he was in the same car as his team mate.

I never believed in 2010 that Massa showed his true level of performance and I always thought his problems were because of technical reasons. After Melbourne this year though I began to accept that maybe the same guy who had been a match for Kimi Raikkonen for 3 seasons had either:

A - lost his mojo for good

or

B - shown that Raikkonen serially underperformed at Ferrari and now Alonso's pace had shown Felipe's true level

It's great to see that this isn't the case and that his problems did indeed stem from a set-up/tyre characteristic issue (something which I never bought in Schumacher's case)

It's great to see Alonso being pushed a bit harder, as an on form Massa was always going to be a bigger challenge to him than Fisichella was so it'll be interesting to see how he deals with this. It's one of the most interesting and unexpected developments of 2011 IMO

 

[F1 fan]

^^^ You missed out option c. "did not fully recover from his accident". I had started to suspect that this was the case, but I'm glad to see the Massa of 2007, 2008 and 2009 reappear. He wasn't a match for Raikkonen in 2007 either, but came alive in 2008. I hope he is back at his best.

 

[Famine]

Can you really back up saying they intended to break the rules? From the evidence I have seen available, I don't think you can.

Yes. Watch any in-car footage of Alonso using the DRS at any point during the weekend. It'll be irrelevant, of course, since he already got away with it.

Incidentally, a system where a gaping hole opens in the back of the driver's car, shifting the aero balance forwards, without the driver having any input sounds phenomenally dangerous.

 

[Ardius]

But you can't prove that at that particular point Alonso pressed the button again, so therefore its quite something to claim they were intentionally cheating. And we don't know how DRS works when it finishes, this hasn't been properly explained to us, just left at "it turns off when the driver hits the brakes".

 

[Famine]

I didn't claim "they" were. I said that Alonso intended to.

If we restrict this just to the known facts at hand:
*In normal operation, DRS only activates so long as the driver is holding the button down
*No car other than Alonso's activated the DRS at any point of the track outside the DRS zone
*The DRS module is a standard, sealed electronics unit with which the teams may not tamper
*The DRS was incorrectly activated once, and once only.

Everything beyond this is speculation. The explanation that requires the fewest additional entities of these known facts is that Alonso pressed the button to activate the DRS and an unknown fault overriding the DRS activation zone allowed the wing to open, and that he didn't do it again. It's also possible that an unknown fault caused an erroneous input signal and a second unknown fault overriding the DRS activation zone caused the wing to open - but then you're requiring more entities (two random chance faults restricted to a one-time operation on a single car - we know that the "error" didn't occur a second time).

Given that the existing facts lend themselves to the conclusion that Alonso pressed the button. We can analyse why he did it - force of habit (he'd have done it during qualifying), optimism (like holding the steering wheel tight, rocking back and forth and yelling "Why won't you go faster!", only with buttons and Michael Schumacher's gearbox in your face), knowledge of a glitch in the system allowing him to do it or, and there's no evidence for this (which is why I didn't say it), team-based cheating. We can even invoke the FIA, give them an amusing alternate set of initials and say Jean Todt has a special button to allow Alonso to do whatever he wants, but less evidence for that than there is of God. I'm sure someone, somewhere will anyway though.

As a secondary to this, any fault with the DRS which allows the rear wing to open independent of driver input outside of the specified DRS zone is, I'm sure you'll agree, dangerous beyond the telling of it. What would happen if a driver is ploughing through Eau Rouge and his rear wing pops open? If there were any evidence for this, the drivers' association would be absolutely incandescent, FOTA would want the system disabled and, frankly, the FIA would have disabled it that very instant. I don't believe that this has occurred, which would also lend itself to the conclusion that it's either not driver-independent (meaning Alonso pressed the button) or that it's not zone independent (meaning that it didn't pop open in the wrong place - which it did).


Of the two possible explanations - Alonso pressed the button and it popped open in the wrong place or Alonso didn't press the button and it popped open in the wrong place - what we saw happen during the race supports the first and what we saw happen after the race supports the first.

 

[Ardius]

There is another "entity" which makes explanation one harder to believe though - the FIA and Race Control. Surely they would be able to tell that Alonso pressed the button again and attempted to take advantage of this situation? In which case, surely they would look into reminding Ferrari about sticking to the rules with a telling off, a fine or a penalty?
The only thing is that specific penalties regarding mis-use of the DRS don't exist perhaps because the FIA didn't think a team could do so. Although the Stewards have always had the special rule where they can penalise teams and drivers for effectively anything they like.

 

[Famine]

There is another "entity" which makes explanation one harder to believe though - the FIA and Race Control. Surely they would be able to tell that Alonso pressed the button again and attempted to take advantage of this situation? In which case, surely they would look into reminding Ferrari about sticking to the rules with a telling off, a fine or a penalty?

You're running the risk of "LOL FERRARI INTERESTS AUTHORITY!!!1" at that point. However, it's worth a note that all reports coming out of China say that, since Alonso didn't actually gain anything, no further action is necessary.

I personally think otherwise - regardless of how a driver was able to operate the DRS device at the wrong point of a track during the race (but this needs to be ironed out too), he did it (or at least all existing evidence points to the fact that he did it). I suspect that it cannot be proven that he intended to gain an advantage, while stuck up Schumacher's diffuser and trying to pass him, and he could easily defend himself with a lapse of concentration, just as "Fernando is faster than you. Can you confirm you have understood this message?" is ambiguous and so we'll hear nothing more of it. Unless it happens again...

 

[lmanion]

Does the driver get some sort of signal like a light on the wheel to let them know they can use the DRS? If Alonso did see something like this then his instinct would probably have been to use it.

 

[BlacqueJacques]

If, a big if, Alonzo did cheat; it hasn't helped much for his position in the driver's standings eh

The DRS should be available 100% of the time (as in qualifying) 👍

KERS meh!

Does the driver get some sort of signal like a light on the wheel to let them know they can use the DRS?

In China there was a sign on the side of the track (DRS line)

 

[The Outlaw]

If, a big if, Alonzo did cheat; it hasn't helped much for his position in the driver's standings eh

Although I don't think cheating should be ignored just because it isn't an advantage in the bigger (in terms of the results or WDC standings), I don't think a lot of folks would be making such a big fuss over this had it been another team/driver which this happened to...say a Mclaren/Jenson Button.

The DRS should be available 100% of the time (as in qualifying) 👍

Doing so kinda defeats the rule makers intentions (to improve overtaking) of implementing DRS though. Not only that, but it would likely make overtaking even worse than before (w/o DRS), as the car following couldn't deploy their DRS as early as the car in front due to the wake/disturbed air (which would likely cause a serious and unpredictable aero imbalance).

 

[Akmuq]

And there would be less draft when behind as well.

 

[Famine]

Although I don't think cheating should be ignored just because it isn't an advantage in the bigger (in terms of the results or WDC standings), I don't think a lot of folks would be making such a big fuss over this had it been another team/driver which this happened to...say a Mclaren/Jenson Button.

Oddly, this was said earlier in the thread too:

I'm sure if Hamilton or Button had done so, you would be praising their ingenuity for getting themselves the clear air they needed. No?

I challenged it then and received no response:

Welcome to "Let's Make Crap Up Tennis". What crap would you like me to make up about you, then phrase as a question so it doesn't look like a straw man?

Why would I praise a dick move by Hamilton or Button?

So I'll challenge it again now. Why would I be less inclined to ask for all drivers to be punished equally for equal offences if the unpunished driver were in a silver car or called "Jenson Button"?

For reference, so far this season we've seen relatively even punishments handed out. However, Massa received no punishment for weaving in Australia, before Jenson received punishment (quite rightly) for cutting a corner and not ceding the place - Hamilton receiving a punishment (quite rightly) for weaving in Malaysia. Massa also received no punishment for the move he made in the restarted Q2 session in China on Sergio Perez (where he hindered another driver and made contact with them), however Sauber have made no complaint about this. Alonso has also not been punished for activating the DRS outside a DRS zone. Button should probably have also received a punishment in China for holding up Vettel in his pitstop FUBAR - Vettel wasn't held up much, Button lost out and I doubt it would have changed the result of the race, but he was held up and his pit crew were endangered by an unexpected situation, though this can be selectively ignored if it helps the opinion that Jenson should never be punished. There have been calls for Massa to be punished for crossing the white line on the left side of the pit exit - I don't agree with them, as Massa didn't cross the white line on the right side of the track in doing so. It's the border of the track that is important, not the border of the pit, where they are two separate entities (such as here).

Cheating is cheating. Hindering another driver is hindering another driver. A dangerous manouevre is a dangerous manouevre. It doesn't matter what colour car does it to what colour car and it doesn't matter what the name of the person driving either is - any more than it matters what colour your name is if you break the AUP here at GTP. Punishments must be fair and they must be consistent or the rules don't make sense.


Personally I'd also love to see all the drivers stick to the confines of the track on both the inside and the outside of the track, like they have to in lower levels of racing.

Except Jenson, obviously.

 

[The Outlaw]

So I'll challenge it again now. Why would I be less inclined to ask for all drivers to be punished equally for equal offences if the unpunished driver were in a silver car or called "Jenson Button"?

.

You're being quite defensive here. I don't see your name brought up in my post, unless your name is "a lot of folks"? Regardless, it was just a view/opinion of mine (which was maybe a bit too generalized), as people tend to waste more energy giving Fernando flak for any wrong doing than just about any other driver on the grid.

 

[Famine]

Of course they do - the job of an F1 driver is to win, and the way to win a lot is to bend, bend and bend the rules. Sometimes the line is crossed - Alonso has crossed the line often, but then so has Schumacher. This leaves them open to criticism for breaking the rules and thus they are criticised more often than many.

I'm about the only person "making a fuss" about Alonso's actions at China in this thread. So if the generalised comment that people making a fuss about Alonso's actions in China wouldn't make a fuss if it were Jenson don't apply to me, you'd struggle to apply them to anyone on this site - which would make me wonder why you'd bring it up on this site. However, I am defending my point of view - that rules must be applied consistently and evenly or they are nonsense (and open to "amusing" accusations of FIA bias) - just in case.

 

[kimi123]

It was great race with different tyre strategy. Nico would have got podium if both the Mercedes drivers din't have low fuel on their cars. Therefore they were not able to push as hard as others with 3 stops.

Webber made good use of the tyres which he couldn't use in qualifying. Ferrari were the 4th best team. Alonso had a bad race again and Felipe did well. In race with tyres it is pretty close between top teams.

 

[fissionproject]

was definitely a great race! had to catch the replay on monday but was entertained none the less

 

[happycorey]

Another 2 weeks man this sucksss

 

[Alex p.]

I do not think the next race will be a turkey either

 

[Alex p.]

You should buy F12010. Much better game imo. And it has Spa. Spa was originally supposed to be in the 2006 season, but wasn't as they hadn't finished modifying "the bus stop chicane".

Thx for info. Regarding F12010, I-do-not-like-it. Graphics-disapointing, physics-so so, driving feel (and that is the most important)-very disapointing, much worse than in the game I mentioned.

It is so amazing how you can feel how the car is getting lighter and how the tyres lose or gain grip, you really have to adjust your corner speed and driving style, just such an awesome driving feel you get from this game, I love it.

Oh and sorry for DP.

 

[F1 fan]

Thx for info. Regarding F12010, I-do-not-like-it. Graphics-disapointing, physics-so so, driving feel (and that is the most important)-very disapointing, much worse than in the game I mentioned.

It is so amazing how you can feel how the car is getting lighter and how the tyres lose or gain grip, you really have to adjust your corner speed and driving style, just such an awesome driving feel you get from this game, I love it.

Oh and sorry for DP.

Ah well. To each his own. Personally F1 2010 has my preference.

 

[SaberFire]

rFactor was here. F1 2010 and F2006 are puffs.