2014 NASCAR Thread
- Thread starter Jahgee
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- HamiltonMP427
I don't see how he'd have six, but I do see him having a fifth for sure. I also see it more likely that Burton would have won his and Edwards would have won instead of Tony and possibly Junior due to usually being second or first the past few years pre-chase. And obviously a couple others. Yet you have to also factor in how much of this goes towards current rules, good teams will pick there battles to win the war because the rules allow them too.
IF it were a development series like WEC or F1 you wouldn't have that ability...your battles as seen in the past with McLaren and RBR and currently MGP is what year you know you can best capitalize on the rules to win.
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Kyle Busch probably would've won one as well. Kurt wouldn't have gotten one more than likely as well. The Chase has always really been detrimental to NASCAR to me. I remember the first year they had it I thought at the beginning of the season "Now what's going to happen when Jr or Jeff Gordon doesn't make it" Sure enough neither made it the first year. Now the first 28 races are even more meaningless. Some of the better drivers for the season will be kept out of the Chase because they didn't win whereas guys who aren't even top 20 in points are locked in. Might as well install a fan vote so Josh Wise can outvote Danica again to get the DogeMobile in there
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- Droptop2001gt
Except, of course, everyone would have altered their strategies knowing that there wouldn't have been a points reset with ten races to go. Yes, Gordon, and others, collected more total points in 36 total races than the Chase champion in some years. But, because of the knowledge of a reset looming, you can't assume that the same person would have won the title under the old rules. Those rules simply didn't apply any more.
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- HamiltonMP427
You missed my point which @MustangRyan put better emphasis on. Also it's 26 races and as many have put it, you don't need to win the race to make it in. If there isn't 16 different winners then you get in on points. And the funny thing is with this format the majority of good drivers are still making the chase. Hell earlier in the season Almirola was in the top ten for the points as was Kyle Larson, so with Almirola's win I don't see this chase being all that bad since he's done decent. If Kyle Larson gets a win that would work for me too.
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I honestly don't think that's always the case. You can look at Smoke winning in 2011 as an example. I don't have the data right in front of me, but out of curiosity, how many times has the driver that's scored the most points actually won the title in the chase era?
I don't disagree, but it's still a 10 race (tracks unevenly balanced and not all inclusive I might add) shootout and starting this year, Talladega will become the deciding factor in the Chase
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Did they just change the format where one bad finish can eliminate you mid chase? I believe Dega is the final round before one of the partial eliminations, so yea it kinda becomes the NASCAR dumb luck Cup
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- HamiltonMP427
No it doesn't for example look at last year, Junior had one bad finish even though he supposedly had the most points gained of any driver after that bad finish and it wasn't enough to get him more than fifth. His points gain was supposedly so good that with the new rules articles came out saying how he would have won it if 2013 had 2014 rules. So even without the new elimination a bad finish nearly sealed it and two bad finishes made it a done deal. Hell just ask Kyle Busch as well.
So not sure where you're getting your sensationalism from, but I don't fully agree with the articles because like me and @MustangRyan have said, on paper sure it looks like someone else would have won, in reality that's not likely because teams will adjust, they play the rules and not the sport like you would on a video game.
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There's always exceptions. I'm not saying every year the wrong guy wins, but it's pretty obvious that Dega now will play a bigger part in who wins the thing overall like I'm saying
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It's always played that role though, it has always been the track that if you finish and survive your most likely going to have a chance at the chase. If not you're most likely not going to have a chance at the chase. That simple, despite the rule change.
And as many of us in the NASCAR fantasy league thread will tell you, unless a plate race goes right (last weeks didn't) then it is up to chance.
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- ganon83
You want 5 full time cars again? I'd rather not.
And as far as the legitimacy of the Chase, you have to remember that NASCAR had gone through a lot of point systems before 1975. Like 3 in 5 years before that. It doesn't matter what kind of system there is, because the champion for the season won the points system used in that season. And like Mustang said, there's no way Chad Knaus spends the last two months before the Chase experimenting and not running that great or at least being very inconsistent after locking the 48 in.
Would he have 6? No. 4-5? Yes. And regardless, he has absolutely dominated the last 12 years, more so than Gordon did in his first 12 years. I mean, Newman is a decent driver at least but Jimmie has 42 more victories than him in the same amount of full time seasons. 21 more than Stewart and 3 more championships, while Stewart has 2 and a half more seasons than him. He averaged 5.5 wins per season before this year, in the most competitive time in NASCAR history where more and more people are winning races than ever before.
The only points system one could really question was the 1974 season. The season that featured Richard Petty getting more points for finishing 35th at Darlington than 2nd place finisher Darrell Waltrip.
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But now, that one finish may not give you time to catch back up in the championship because you're eliminated before the end
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- Droptop2001gt
If you crashed out at Talladega, you were probably never going to win the title, not in the old Chase format.
Unlike before, now you can completely and totally recover from a disastrous wreck at Talladega. All you have to do is win one of the two races before Talladega, and you are guaranteed to advance through the elimination round. You could never do that before this season.
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- HamiltonMP427
And I already gave examples of people who couldn't catch up even if they didn't wreck at Talladega but some other track in old chase format, thus it makes your point moot. Unless you pulled a Tony Stewart and won a string of chase races that was about the only way you were going to come back from a massive deficit. As @MustangRyan has demonstrated that is no longer the case.
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And I've given examples to the contrary
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Let's see, Jimmie Johnson wasn't phased in 2006 when he wrecked on the last lap. Also, Brad's championship year he was involved in the melee but still recovered to win
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And all of his following 5 races resulted in a finish no worse than 2nd, while other contenders like Kenseth and Burton were wildly inconsistent. He was a full race back in points, with the perfect storm that will never happen again.
He was barely collected and still managed to finished 7th, 11 positions ahead of Johnson, his biggest threat. Not a good example as he actually increased his points lead.
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Only because every other chase driver had bad weekends following the two he had, plus this was before certain recent chase format rules in the past few years. Burton had a major failure that cost him and he never came back from it. Other contenders didn't come back from their woes either like Junior and Kenseth and especially Busch. This all played well for a far more consistent JJ. The only other driver that did well from my view that year was Stewart who didn't make the chase and was running for the next best spot they use to do.
Also Brad finished that race in the top ten as I remember and as @iRevelationz has informed. Brad was consistent than as he has been as of late, maybe slightly more so then.
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Oh, so since I give an actual example, you have to talk about how mechanical failure (which is also dumb luck to a small extent) costs everyone else
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Do you want me to post up tons of Jayski tables that show you why as I pointed out to you? Or the NASCAR chase recap that explains to a limited extent how JJ won it and other videos on why certain drivers lost?
Also I agree mechanical failure is dumb luck and sucks, since that is what took Junior out of the run last year but the problem with your analysis is JJ won. Martin, Burton, Gordon, Busch, Junior all were caught in trouble mid to late in the chase once or more and on top of that didn't finish consistently like JJ after being in trouble. Harvick and Kenseth didn't finish high enough often enough to catch JJ though close. So JJ was very lucky to have a team that capitalized on early issues while also doing so at the right times when others were having bad luck.
That's racing. And proves that the chase has always been a killer do or die system. If JJ didn't make a rally back like he did and faltered around like his other two team mates that year after their issues he would have ended up like them. And that's the point you have to at least win and finish 3rd or better all the time if you plan to come back. You can't be top 5 every weekend like Edwards or Junior and not win and still expect to take the chase. In Edwards case it was close, but what ultimately lost it for him...not having a win. That's the point I'm making no driver has ever come back to win a chase without a win or multiple wins in Stewarts case.
If you don't like the fact I can counter your argument maybe brush up on you history or get a better memory? Not seeing why you have to get mad and feel there is some double standard.
EDIT:
Also how is a mechanical failure as I put it in my last post a issue to everyone else?
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That's what I've been saying all along yet you're trying to say I'm wrong or something?
Look, other than 06 Dega has pretty much decided the championship in the Chase, so regardless of how much teams prepare for the last 10 races of the season, dumb luck from dega and mechanical failure plays a bigger role than all
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That's what I've been saying all along yet you're trying to say I'm wrong or something?
Look, other than 06 Dega has pretty much decided the championship in the Chase, so regardless of how much teams prepare for the last 10 races of the season, dumb luck from dega and mechanical failure plays a bigger role than all
But it did decide it just not for JJ but the others caught in it, for example Junior. Who finished most races in the top ten after but had two races outside it. He only had two top fives with one of them being a top 3, thus not consistent enough to take a fight to the leaders after having a wreck. And the same outlook is seen with others that season.
The point your missing is the only reason Talladega didn't impact JJ so hard is he did exactly what I said he had to to make it back to contention which has always been the case. Which is win one or more and finish high up consistently, the only race I recall he finished lower top ten after Talladega and his other wreck early in the season was Homestead, but the only two who had a chance to catch him were Harvick and Kenseth and failed to finish much higher then Johnson who almost handed them the championship with damage done to his car from debris.
You have yet to demonstrate how luck and failures haven't decided the chases prior to what you expect this years format will do. Other than exaggerating info or just being plain wrong you seem to want to skewer the system before it's used, I mean there are many of us who want the chase to go away but you don't see us leading a crusade about it every other month.
Also read this below since that's the point:
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I didn't know me disliking something meant I want it gone yesterday. Learn something new everyday on the internets.
It's not my job to make the points system, but I do prefer a system in which the entire season counts equally, or if there has to be a chase, equally distribute tracks in it for starters
It's not my job to make the points system, but I do prefer a system in which the entire season counts equally, or if there has to be a chase, equally distribute tracks in it for starters
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- Droptop2001gt
I would argue that Kenseth was hurt by his poor finish at Talladega last fall. He wasn't in a wreck, but he was a favorite for a top 5, and finished well outside the top ten. I'm pretty sure Johnson didn't fare much better, but it was definitely a lost opportunity for Kenseth to make up some ground. His plate record from 2012 to 2013 was pretty solid, even with the blown engine in the 2013 Daytona 500 (while leading). Had he performed up to expectation, he might have won the title.
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- HamiltonMP427
Like how to distort what people say redirect conversation. Also I see being a smart ass as being defense mechanism when you have nothing left to really say, other than wanting to have the last word for ego sake.
What do you mean by equally distribute tracks for one?
Time and time again in this thread you've been the one talking about how the chase especially 2014 form is bad, hence why I'm sure people will agree they think you dislike it or wish to see it gone, and your current statement loosely implies it without directly saying it.
Also how does the entire season not count, yet again?
